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Goblin Squad Member. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria 40 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 10 Organized Play characters.

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(NOTE: I know this is an old thread, but it's the only one that I could find via search that encompassed both the 'Extra Hex' feat and the 'Shaman' class)

Based on the wording of the rule, does this mean you cannot use the 'Extra Hex' feat to choose one of the 12 (13) **standard** hexes that all Shaman can choose from? Example: 3rd level character (3 level Shaman with Flame spirit) gets a feat, I choose 'Extra Hex', am I allowed to choose the standard Shaman hex "Chant" with this feat? Or am I only allowed to choose from the 5 hexes of the Fire spirit listing?

I understand not allowing the extra hex coming from a wandering spirit, but I don't understand why I could not choose a **standard** Shaman hex with it.

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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From my n=1 perspective as a new PFS player (though long time home game PF player/GM) I must say that I will not now play a pregen again. The only reason I was willing to risk playing a level 7 pregen in a high tier 7-11 scenario the Wednesday night before Gen Con to help round out a table and provide support and buffing was because of the reassignment clause in the online FAQ. If not for a fortunate casting of Baleful Polymorph, my pregen would most likely have died. That would have sucked and I would have reassigned to a non-existent #-2 character, but since I survived it went to my sole existing #-1 character. Of course now that #-1 character (level 2.1 at the time) must survive until level 7 before he gets *any* benefits from the chronicle. It's just as possible he will die between now and then and the chronicle will be just as 'lost' as if it was reassigned to #-2.

My problem is one that I've stated in question format before in this thread and that is that all of the rewards for playing a pregen are BACK loaded, but now all of the risk is FRONT loaded. Under either rules regime I could never replay the scenario for credit again without "burning a GM star", so the fact that the death got reassigned to a non-existent character didn't help me much beyond keeping my precious existing character alive. Under the new regime my character, "Sir not-appearing-in-my-backpack", must now contribute funds from accumulated chronicles to deal with the pregen death from the future that has been assigned to his present. Instead of having 21-42 scenarios worth of accumulated chronicle sheets though my character only has 7, plus the one the pregen hopefully accumulated enough on to assist. If I can't pay, then my level 2.1 character dies suddenly of heart failure during a dream of something that might take place in his future, though if he had managed to survive it's not like he would have gotten anything from the dream until level 7. So death effect is instantaneously applied to my level 2.1, but all rewards are deferred until level 7 -- this strikes me as monumentally unfair and not at all a good balance of 'risk' vs 'reward'.

If 'chronicle fish' means what I think it means, I don't see how the old rule helped since you could only reassign in the event the pregen died, not because you got to see the chronicle and change which character you applied to.

It's obvious (given that we're 8 days into the start of this thread and it already ranks as the 29th most populous by posts thread in this forum) that there's a lot of opinions on the subject, so I accept that others do not consider my viewpoint to be either valid or persuasive (I knew I shouldn't make CHA my dump stat!) But again as a new PFS player, I have to say that I am 1.) never going to play a pregen again, and in fact will avoid any 'specials' where I have to do so; and 2.) I'm going to warn my friends off as they come into PFS (hopefully starting with tonight's game session) to avoid pregen's as well; and 3.) at any table with new-to-PFS players I will elucidate my (and others in this thread) issues about pregens and why they might want to avoid playing them.

Although it may come off as confrontational, I'm not actually trying to be so, I'm just trying to provide a bit of new-to-PFS perspective since this exact scenario almost happened to me within the last 9 days so it is fresh in my mind (and currently dear to my heart) and I think the rules change damages things more than it helps.

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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torrquan wrote:
...I realize the guide has a page count or word count limit...

I'd like to ask the PFS newbie pink elephant question: why is there a page/word count limit on an electronic only document?

If I want a printed copy of the guide, don't I have to print it myself? I've never seen an officially printed one before, are they available somewhere? If I'm responsible for printing, then I can always choose what to print and what not to print, so whether the document is module length at 64 pages, or core rule book length at 575 pages, I can always print what I need. But having to rely on reliable and affordable internet access (*cough* Gen Con *cough*) in order to get all the rules seems problematic. I know of at least 2 LGS that don't have customer wifi at all, and one of which is underground so you can't even get cell signal to use your data plan to go searching for things. While I can download a PDF directly to my device and view it normally, it's much messier to download a web page for offline viewing.

I'd rather have the PFS document follow the same construct as the hardback books where you can download a PDF per chapter, because then you could make the FAQ/Clarifications its own chapter and easily download updates to it. It would also make changes to the other chapters easier, such as cleric feats and animal companion HP's, since it would simply be updates to a 'character creation' chapter.

A PFS book that is 156 pages long may seem daunting to a new player, but a guide that is 64 pages long and requires you to instinctively know to go online and hunt down 3 different web pages (not counting blog and messageboard posts) to get your answers is practically unfeasible since the guide doesn't prominently point out that this needs to be done, and as mentioned having internet access is guaranteed.

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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Nefreet wrote:

Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.

Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder.

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the new guide specifically allows permanent negative level effects to be carried forward instead of having to resolve them immediately at the end of the scenario, and at least raise some awareness of how that could apply to 'real' characters to whom a pregen 'credit/debit' is being applied.

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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Paul Jackson wrote:

but I just want to point out that there are plenty of scenarios where buying a Raise Dead and two Restorations (lets remember those when saying its no huge deal) is NOT as bad as it gets. Some scenarios you'll need a body recovery, some you'll need a resurrection, etc.

Of course that brings up the interesting point that since you are no longer REQUIRED to deal with negative levels right away, but instead can carry negative levels forward [PFS Season 8 Guide pg. 18: "Permanent negative levels, ability drain, and nonmechanical conditions being carried over to the next session should be recorded on the Chronicle sheet."] Does this mean that if all one can afford with the pre-gen is the 'Raise Dead' spell, that my 3rd level actual character, for whom the pregen credit is being applied to, now becomes 1st level? Pretty straight-forward, so I would assume it does. Can I now play him in Tier 1, Tier 1-2 scenarios? I mean, he's a level 1 again, right? How does he count for calculating average table level now, level 1 or level 3?

But let's look at the "risk vs reward" argument that's been used here by looking at this scenario. I have a level 2 character, I go to Gen Con and can only play at a Tier 7-11 table with a level 7 pregen (regardless of low or high tier table). I pick my one and only character to apply the scenario credit to, rather than creating a -2 character. Let's assume that my pre-gen survives the scenario:

1. Does my level 2 character immediately get the XP? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
2. Does my level 2 character immediately get the Fame/Prestige? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
3. Does my level 2 character immediately get the GP? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
4. Does my level 2 character immediately have the ability to buy items listed on the sheet? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?

Based on how it was explained to me when I joined PFS the answer to all four questions is: "No, you don't get anything from the chronicle sheet now. You must wait until your character achieves the level of the pregen character (in this example level 7) before you get anything from the adventure because that is when the chronicle sheet is applied to your character."

Except now there's an addendum:

"You don't get anything from the chronicle sheet until your character reaches the level of the pregen EXCEPT death and negative level effects, those you must apply immediately to your character and deal with it now, immediately, not when you reach the level of the pregen character."

So, playing a pregen means that one can get a foreshadowing look at the "reward", but they get an immediate first-hand, instantaneous application of the "risk". Not exactly balanced in my opinion. Why can't I wait and apply the death effect AND the rewards when the character reaches the level of the pregen? Why is death front-loaded but nothing else from playing the pregen is?

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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Michael Hallet wrote:
I didn't like playing pregens before, I like it even less with this change.

Absolutely! The pregens, especially core class pregens, are horrid compared to the scenario challenges. In fact, if this interpretation does in fact invalidate the FAQ rule clarification, then it really isn't worth playing a pregen IMO unless you're going to play a high level pregen in a lower subtier table (i.e. level 4 pregen playing in a 1-5 at subtier 1-2), so you would never play the level 7 pregens at any 7-11 events.

Knowing I had a chance to reassign the death to another character rather than the originally chosen one made me more likely to try to help the rest of the party out as much as one could with the gimped pregen. But now (if this ruling interpretation stands) if I was to play a pregen, I'd probably hang back and not do as much because they have no items of consequence (compared to similarly level PFS characters), they have no money to buy items needed for a scenario (i.e. "now that the briefing is over, does anyone want to buy anything in town before setting out?"), and some of them lack basic skills. At this point the only use for a pregen IMO is to fill out a 3-player table, where it will almost certainly be "played" like a 'bot' whose sole purpose is to aid the human players in any way they want.

Actually now that I think about this, I'm going to have to change one of the events I'm playing at Gen Con because I'd planned to play a pregen for it and now I won't risk it. So I'll have to see if I can sign up for something else and cancel that ticket (yay more standing in line time.)

**** Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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James - Thanks for organizing this!
Joe - Thanks for GM'ing last night! Had a ton of fun! Happy my pregen Skald actually managed to survive at the high level! (All Hail the 'Baleful Polymorph'!