Letariel's page

The differentiation between staves and wands could be flexibility vs power. Currently staves give you the ability to spontaneously cast the spells in the staff which gives you more flexibility with how you use your spells. The Spell Duelist's Wand (and presumably other similar wands in the future) make the spells you already know work better. It also has the bonus one casting of a spell/day, but that's not the main point of the item.

That said, the wands which are just bulk scrolls seem pretty silly now, and should get replaced with more wands like the Spell Duelist's Wand. Perhaps if they codified a way to buy scrolls in bulk to fill this design space so that people aren't missing out if they want the old wands. I think PFS already has a multi-spell scroll option, right?

What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?

The Medical Expert feat says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.' Medicine skill says 'You can use Medicine to restore Hit Points to a living, wounded creature. This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used.' Medpatch says 'A medpatch allows you to attempt a Medicine check untrained with a +10 circumstance bonus, but only for the first aid, long-term stability, treat disease, and treat drugs or poison tasks.'

I think the RAW answer is that the DC depends on the type of medkit you have, and the medpatch gives you a bonus, but I don't know if that RAI, as the flavor text for the medpatch talks about it being a all-in-one device... Might be we're both missing something. :)

edit: ninja'd!

Awesome!

I'm an avid user of d20pfsrd and Archives of Nethys, as having a bunch of tabs open is much easier for me than trying to bookmarking different pages of a paper book. Does anyone know if there is going to be something similar for Starfinder?

Mashallah wrote:

YogoZuno wrote:

Quote:

I say good riddance to a non-sensical holdover from the 1970s.

No more nonsensical than any other magic mechanics system, and from a gameplay point of view, WAY easier to balance than things like spell points or just rolling to cast.

Prepared casters are the most imbalanced spellcasting subsystem ever published for 3.x.

Point-based systems tend to have far fewer balance issues.

I'm not sure which point-based systems you've played, but generally the issue with them is that you have a pool of points to cast your spells, which grows as you level. Eventually you can choose between casting 1 big high level spell or effectively indefinite low level spells. Which makes it very hard to balance. There are ways to balance them, but they all approach the "spell slots" solution from a different angle and to a different degree.

I think the Arcanist is the "right" path to go down for a DnD type game. I personally enjoy it more than either of the other types.

I also love the casting mechanics of the arcanist, and had hoped that the Technomancer had this style of casting. It would make so much sense: using their techno-magic, they pre-load a bunch of magical hacks (aka. spells) and run that code until he's out of juice. Which is exactly how the arcanist works.

As a side note, I think the Kineticist has a very interesting point-based system (those points are basically your health).
Having a small pool of points and then giving ways to discount the low-level spells seems like a system that could work, and it would reduce the bloat of points. I have to admit that I love the Kineticist though, so I may be biased. I'm sure it'd be a pain to balance this method. :)

Ckorik wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

So, do you have a newsletter i could subscribe too or some webinars on game theory perhaps?

That could be fun. I wonder if enough people would be interested in that, then I'd have to look into how to set it up.

Yes please.

Agreed. It would be awesome if more people working at Paizo did this too. A lot of us seem to want, you know, information on stuff. Go figure.

Adding kudos to the Kineticist. It's likely my favorite class in Pathfinder. :)

If more votes are needed, I would definitely follow/subscribe.

So I was looking at doing a Kitsune Trickster build and wanted to use the Unchained rules for the Dex to damage and skill unlocks, but I noticed that some of the Rogue Talents such as Obfuscate Story and Honeyed Words aren't listed as compatible with the Unchained Rogue.

So what do you guys think? Take the Finesse Training and Skill Unlocks and forget about the Talents, or go for the Talents and forget about the Unchained rules?

Those rogue talents were folded into Certainty. So you can still get your rerolls with whatever skill you want, you just need to select it as a Rogue Edge unlock (and if you are focusing on a skill like that, you'd likely do that anyway).

AND... i just realized how off point this thread has become... To take it back a little bit:

The first few levels of Kineticist suck but so do most classes at level 1 and 2.

I have a lot of play time with an aeromancer at this point and somewhere on the forums i have a thread of my experiences.

If i had to do it again? Spec' for melee first, Grab Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade at level 1, be a switch hitter from the get go. The class pushes you to DEX and CON so even with light armor and a D8 chassis you can rock the AC and HP of a front liner, dont be afraid to get into melee.

Get PBS and Precise shot when you can. Toughness is great, Opening Volley is good. Weapon Focus is something else to think about as it will boost your ranged and melee attacks.

Your accuracy is going to hurt, as thematic as an earth throwing dorf is, you need to land that hit and you wont have much going for you to help out. By level 4 though you could be looking at 3 BAB, 1 EO, 3 Ability Mod plus whatever party buffs you all get going and thats about on par with a power attacking/deadly aiming front liner. Also since you dont need nearly as much support gear you can dump a lot more into stat boosting items. Push your dex up as fast as you can.

That is kinda what I feared. I'll definitely be prioritizing a dex belt. :) I wish there was a way for me to fit in "weapon focus(K Blast)" somewhere, but as far as I can tell, there aren't any free feats until high level for a "switch hitter" like the geokineticist tends towards (I'm also planning on going Kinetic Whip, Combat Reflexes, and Kinetic Form when they are available to be tanking for the team). At least I'll do good damage when I hit.

I'll take the communal advice of grabbing Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade, and just trying to mix it up in melee as much as possible, as I won't have Precise Shot at lvl 1 either way, so I may as well be good at something. It still feels like the character won't really get rolling mechanically until lvl 5, but I guess that's the price I'm going to have to pay to be decent at any range.

Have you had a chance to see Psychic Anthology yet? They have several new options for kineticists that help alleviate the cookie cutter issue (74 new blasts and wild talents to be exact). For example, geokineticists can get stone shield as a 1st-level utility talent now.

I haven't seen it yet, though I'm looking forward to it when it is available on the 22nd. :)

Stone shield sounds awesome for a tank geokineticist. Is that one of the invocations you need a feat for? If so, I don't know how to squeeze that in before lvl 7...

What am I chopped liver? :P

*gives Ravingdork a hug* Far from it Ravingdork! I appreciate your advice to focus more on roleplay, and I did look over Valgar for ideas. Sadly, geokineticists are pretty cookie cutter right now, so it's exactly the same as my plan, except I'm going Elemental Whispers instead of Kinetic Cover, and I couldn't think of any comments to make on it. If it make you feel any better, I lurk around your Emporium a lot, and usually learn a lot from checking out your characters. :)

Thank you for all the good feedback!

Vrischika111, I can't just charge in without gathering at lvl 1, since my kinetic blade costs burn (or at least not without giving up HP for it every time). So I could only do it as a "full-attack". That and the 20' speed I figured would prevent me from wading into combat hardly ever, so I was thinking that ranged would be my default until lvl 5 (when I pick up Infusions Specialization). Is the movespeed less of an issue than I think it is?

Azten, I'd prefer to avoid power attack on my kineticist. I think he'll be doing plenty of damage when he hits, just getting him to hit would be my worry, and power attack hurts that. I'd prefer to spend that feat on Finesse and pump dex and con. :)

Rerednaw, I was already planning on using Stonesinger and the Dwarf fcb to be the best geokineticist ever (TM). The Unstoppable trait gives up Hardy, and the +2 saves vs spells just seems too good to give up. My HP may be a little low when I accept burn, but with the DR, I was thinking I'd be good. Worst case, better to be unconscious than mind-controlled into killing my allies, and I don't have room in the build for Iron Will. (Or at least that's my train of thought.)

Texas, I am planning on using Elemental Whispers. That and the low cha I was going to roleplay as him having voices in his head (that he talks back to occasionally) and not being good at talking to people outside his head. That and telling weird stories in the downtime (like a passing comment about the vegetables almost killing him) should make the roleplay pretty interesting. Probably make my party think I'm crazy (though all the strange stories will be true; he has an intentionally weird backstory). :-P

Many people commented on the 5 Cha; I'll talk to my GM about that (I'll have a consistent GM). If needed, I'll raise that up some and dump Str.

I'm thinking about playing a Dwarf Geokineticist, and after planning it out, I'm nervous if my character will actually be effective.

1. My first 3 feats are PBS, Precise Shot, and Weapon Finesse and my infusions will be Extended Range Kinetic Blade, and Entangle. So my build doesn't do anything other than throw a base blast at enemies until lvl 5. That doesn't sound fun or flexible, but I don't see a way around it. Hopefully at higher levels the additional infusions make it more interesting.

2. The 20 pt buy that I'm thinking of (with Dwarf stats added):

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 5

So at lvl 1 those stats (with PBS) give me +4 hit for 1d6+5 damage with my blast. That doesn't sound that good to me (Average AC for a CR 1 enemy is 12). And as far as I project it, I don't think my to-hit is going to catch up with average enemy AC (my understanding is that when Elemental Overflow is factored in, the kineticist basically scales at full BAB, which isn't as fast as enemy AC). I could dump my str and int to oblivion and boosted my dex to 18, But is that worth it for an additional +1 hit? Is it just expected that I miss half the time with my blast? Considering that even at high level, a Geokineticist is is pretty much a martial that with a chance to debuff a struck enemy, it seems like hitting enemies is going to be very important and I only get one try per turn. Am I missing something? Do I just have overinflated expectations?

i would expect "energy blade" or "beam sword" or... you know what? with a leveled gear chart and the descriptions we have already heard (low level laser was referred to as a "diode laser" and low level rifle was a "auto target rifle") so we may actually end up with 5 or 6 different lightsaber stand ins... but i digest, if the lightsaber is just gear anyone can spec into than we could see lots and lots of classes being "jedi" all it takes is access to some special abilities which i am betting every class other than soldier will get access to just by leveling.

Assuming lightsabers aren't class-locked, then I would have to go off the other class features to decided on my jedi. But Owen did show the Solarian can throw people with gravity (Force Throw) and have an AoE burst of energy around him. The only other thing you'd really need as an options is the ability to enhance your reactions (blocking things with your lightsaber) and enhancing your physical abilities (Force Jump). Shooting lightning or suffocating someone from range would be a bonus. :-P

Is this archived somewhere so we who missed it can see it?

Owen pointed me to it in another thread. Enjoy! Starfinder on Twitch

David knott 242 wrote:

Letariel wrote:

It seemed that the solarian had a "favored enemy" bonus against the goblins,

Was that like a Ranger's bonus to damage or a Dwarf's racial bonus to hit? I assumed that Owen's bonus was the latter.

I can confirm Wrothor Ironstar has a bonus against goblins as a result of being a dwarf, not as a result of bing a solarian.

That makes sense. Apparently I haven't played enough dwarves because I completely forgot that was an option. :)

In that case, I think I'm going to go back to saying the Solarian is similar to the Monk, as the "flurry of blows" with the energy sword and SLAs related to building/balancing of mystical energy (aka. Ki) does feel pretty similar to a Monk. There does feel like there is some influence from the Kineticist as well (as the SLAs are more offensive rather than defensive), but that could just be them building in the Qinggong archetype, which I'm sure no one will complain about. :) I'm so making a Jedi Knight from this class!

The twitch video re-enforces the feeling of Solarion as a successor to the Kineticist but with an adjustable elemental focus.

I could still be off on that though, its difficult to follow what is just an action cost and what has a resource cost in their use of abilities.

It seemed that the solarian had a "favored enemy" bonus against the goblins, could create a energy sword, and had some powers you could attune to and would ramp up as the battle goes on (and you release for a SLA depending on what you attuned to). Also attacked twice at lvl 2 by taking a -2, so some kind of "Rapid Shot" but with the energy sword. Seems kinda kineticist/ranger? Also seemed super tanky, but could be because he was a dwarf (and the only melee character). *shrugs* Seems pretty cool.

I liked the Stamina system that they played with. Drastically reduces the need for a "healer" in the party.

Wood Bond is really nice if you are going for a ranged build, though everyone here seems to be focused on going melee.

It should be available on the Paizo Twitch page, and hopefully I have successfully linked to the exact video.

You successfully linked! That is a 99 minute video I'll have to absorb soon. Thank you!

Based on how it played in the live stream, it kind of felt like a magus/eldritch knight type.

you make be right; I was going off of the flavor text, as I didn't think we had any info on actual play. I am also very interesting in this live stream you speak of. Could you share a link?

In answer to the OP, you can see the announced classes here: Starfinder Wiki.

But in summary, here are the classes:
Technomancer (Wizard)
Mechanic (Druid)
Solarian (Monk)
Soldier (Fighter)
Envoy (Bard)
Mystic (Cleric)
Operative (Rogue)

Of course, each class will have their differences with the Pathfinder base classes, but it seems like they are sticking with familiar DnD standards. :)

Yes, we had the dominant weapons on the frontliners (the oracle and I had lost ours through various means). Also, we definitely pre-buffed with stoneskin, life bubble, communal air walk, heroism, haste, protection from evil, protection from energy (lightning), death ward, lesser globe of invulnerability, hero's feast, spellturning (on me), and probably some other things that I've forgotten (we spent about 15 minutes figuring out what all to pre-buff before going through the portal). Notably, we did not have anything protecting from fire, but we had no indication that Karzoug would use so many fire spells (up to this point, he'd mostly used Disintegrate). All those buffs are the only reason we weren't wiped out after one round of combat. :)

After hearing what you guys did, it sounds like the key is to never let the high-level wizard boss free cast; go figure. :-P Considering what my party had available, I needed to either counterspell Karzog every turn to prevent him from shredding us, or use teleportation spells to help my frontliners stick to Karzoug and just never let him have a moment to breath. So in retrospect it was probably my fault, as the arcane caster, that the party failed. It doesn't feel good, but now I've learned. :)

Thank you all for sharing your experiences!

Spoiler warning: This contains spoilers for Rise of the Runelords. Don't read anything else if you care about that. :)

So, my party finally got to Karzog, and we got wrecked. We all buffed up before going through the portal, we won initiative, and we had everything going for us. We started very far away from the enemies, so with Haste we moved towards the main dais where Karzog was, and ended our turns. Then we got Chain Lightning and Meteor Swarm in the face and a couple full-attacks to the frontline and it all went downhill from there. When I tried to cast spells on Karzog (I was playing an Arcanist), Spellturning made me regret it, and when I finally got rid of that, he just re-cast it. When the frontliners tried to rush him and gang up on him in melee, he used an AoE on them and Quickened Time Stop to escape and buff up even more. When we instead tried to clear out his minions so we could maneuver easier, we were bombarded by brutal AoE spells (Horrid Wilting, Meteor Swarm, Wail of the Banshee, with some quickened fireballs for good measure) along with the full-attack of giants and dragons which quickly killed multiple party members. When we spread out, the giants and dragon would pound us worse than we were hurting them (they would move over to the giant/dragon, get one attack, then get full-attacked in return and then need to retreat for healing if they were still alive). In the end, we survived quite a while, but were on the backfoot the whole time, and whenever we tried to group up and take the offensive, it was just shut down by Karzog's AoE. After the first couple turns, our oracle was just casting Heal and Breath of Life every turn, so he was practically out of the fight. I brought out my summon (who also spent a bunch of time chasing around Karzog and trying to distract the minions so they wouldn't kill my party) and then spent my time trying to burn down the giants after I gave up on trying to out-magic Karzog's multiple Spellturnings. And the frontliners weren't able to actually do much in the fight because they spent so much time trying not to bleed out or chasing around Karzog without being able to catch him. No one could actually harm Karzog and he was just pounding us the whole time. Eventually, everyone was down other than me, and I plane shifted away at 8 hp because I was lucky enough to save against a bunch of spells.

I'm thinking back, and I just don't know how we could have won that fight. I feel like the initial burst of damage made us too weak to confront them without dying, but hanging back so they wouldn't full-attack us just means that the enemy would have added additional chain lighting and dragon breath to the AoE burst, and we would have just been killed from afar without being able to do anything. Charging Karzog past all of the minions just means we give the minions free full-attacks, and Karzog was too elusive for us to actually do any damage (there was never a charge lane, so we double-move towards him, just to get AoE'd and then he moves away with Quickened Time Stop).

I know many others have succeeded in this fight, and I just can't figure out how. So I thought I'd ask for your collective words of wisdom. How did people actually succeed at this fight?

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

So, once KOP4 is out, any chance of you guys collecting all four into a compendium for ease of access? At the moment it's kind of a pain to search for a specific talent among the three existing books.

There are plans for an eventual compilation with caveats made for content made while other things didn't exist to make sure that everything plays together well, but that probably won't be for a while until after KOP 4.

I'll put in another vote for a compilation! I like the sound of a lot of things I've heard about your KoP stuff, but trying to create a character and flipping back and forth between 3-4 different PDFs alongside d20pfsrd is a deterrent for me.

(Yes, I buy the Paizo books/pdfs, but I always use d20pfsrd to plan things out. It's so much easier to only have to look one place!)

This thread is a little old, but i was wondering if someone could explain his quote about intel and free hp every level. What free hp is he talking about?

"Yes, because of our intelligence, this means you are going to not get the free hp every level; but the Con makes up for that; and it is a cheaper buy than keeping int at 10. All boosts go to Str"

And second, is fey foundling necessary if you have a consistent group with a healer?

He's talking about your favored class bonus going towards skill points each level.

As for fey foundling, it depends on how much healing you think you'll need. :)

...What the kineticist needs most, is tweaks here and there to fix problematic options. For example, the telekineticist has no method of levitating anyone. All energy kineticists should naturally gain resistance, and even immunity to their element at a certain point; not only when they take those terrible utility talents that grant resistance equal to "twice your current burn." Some talents need to be adjusted up and down levels, and be made more widely available; such as many of the AoE abilities should probably come with reduced levels (not-fireball, I'm looking at you!). Meanwhile, other abilities, like fan of flames, i.e. 15-ft. cone, should be made more widely available. Or pure flame being the only true touch composite blast; I know this was done to ensure fire was special because it was the only energy blast that could truly ramp up it's damage and still target touch AC, but there are better ways of doing this.

So many little things should be done, like letting earth, water/ice, and wood make a wall of stone/wall of ice spell effect, but using their element. They should be able to make walls, and bridges, and little huts and stuff out of earth/ice/wood/plants...

I like where you are going with this. I really like the concept of being able to increase the effect of an infusion by sinking more burn into it (like with the Pushing infusion), and I think we can use that for these more generic infusions. Here's some ideas as a starting point:

-----

Utility:
(Greater) Self Propulsion - basically a consolidated flame jet/self-telekinesis/gravity control

Kinetic Wall - basically Wall of Stone, but adapted to use different materials. Probably needs a clause that if you are making it out of non-solid materials it's more limited (Wall of Cold doesn't make much sense for building a bridge), and it it's solid, how hard it is to break it.

Infusion:
Kinetic Spray - "Fan of Flame" with all the elements, and subsume "Spray" infusion by adding "You can increase the burn cost of this infusion to increase the range by 5 feet per additional point of burn accepted."

Kinetic Explosion
Element(s) Any; Type form infusion; Level 3; Burn 2
Prerequisite(s) extended range
Associated Blasts All
Saving Throw Reflex half

You focus your energy on a point in space and create a controlled explosion. You can center the explosion anywhere within 120 feet of you, and you can choose the radius of the spread to be 5 or 10 feet. You can increase the burn cost of this infusion to increase the radius by 5 feet per additional point of burn accepted. All creatures and objects within the explosion take your blast's damage. The saving throw DC is Dexterity-based.

Amp up the Heat
Element(s) fire; Type substance infusion; Level 1; Burn 2
Associated Blasts blue flame, fire

Your flames burn hotter the more you burn. Your kinetic blast does +1 damage per d6 of damage. You can increase the burn cost of this infusion to increase the damage by an additional +1 per d6 per additional 2 points of burn accepted.

-----

That final one is to give fire some damage to compensate for stealing all their form infusions.

Lots of stuff

I'm not speaking dishonestly or exaggerating, but it sounds like your gaming experiences are much different than mine, and there doesn't seem to be a point in arguing with you about the average number of fights in a day and the number of spells per fight, since that's all up to the GM. Suffice to say that as an arcanist (which has much fewer spells than a sorcerer) playing through RotR, and I have never run out of spells before the rest of the party was ready to call it quits. And we don't do any of that 5-min workday crap; we've only ever needed to rest in the middle of a dungeon twice, and that's typically when we have a character down. We are now in book 5. *shrugs*

As for comparing the kineticist's damage to other damage dealing classes; I really thought that was the main draw of the class. If the intent of the kineticist is a jack-of-all-trade class then comparing it to a bard is fair. But as far as I can tell, a bard is a lot more flexible and powerful. Bards can be built can deal great damage (using a greatsword or longbow with bard buffs and Arcane Strike), great debuffing/SoS, amazing buffing/support, or amazing out-of-combat utility, just depending on what you specialize in. And when specializing, the bard doesn't give up that much (typically just picking between spell caster or weapon user) and can still do all the bard buffs during combat or use utility spells and skills out of combat.

The kineticist can't optimize/focus at all, as far as I can tell. The kineticist can't really optimize damage at all (the optimization floor and ceiling is about the same). They can't do much team support, as almost all their buffs are self only (the notable exceptions being Celerity), and their healing is a joke. They can do some debuffing (notably Magnetic or Entangling infusions), but they don't compare favorably to a comparable debuffer bard (Confusion, Slow, Fear, etc). Their out-of-combat utility is the high point (if you are a Telekineticist or Geokineticist), but even then it doesn't compare well against a bard's insane skill bonuses and various utility spells that they can get (invisibility, dispel magic, glibness, etc.). It feels like the kineticist can do many things passably but nothing well, and have no way of getting better at anything if they want to specialize.

I really love the concept of the Kineticist, and I really want them to be great. I'd love to be able to say I'll never make another class again. But I'm having trouble justifying playing one when I can make a different character class that does the same thing better.

ASharkInAPanzerNamedShark

Paizo has done a great job giving the kineticist a lot of support since its release. Two books introduced tons of new content. In the realm of 3pp, Purple Duck Games's Kineticists of Porphyra is pretty well done.

Letariel wrote:

Ok, forget the archer comparison, and instead go with the sorcerer comparison. A sorcerer going for evocation (let's say fireball or battering blast as the most common) will always do more damage, assuming it's not a total marathon game (which is pretty rare). And the sorcerer will also being flying/invisible/untouchable and have utility spells, so the utility comparison will be similar. Am I wrong?

The sorcerer should still be doing more damage with single uses of spells because they don't have an at-will blast aside from cantrips. Nearly all of the kineticist's utility is either at-will or can be at-will.

Cyrad: In theory, I agree with you, but for realistically, I've never heard of a sorcerer that ran out of spells after lvl 2 (before which, as you stated, they just use their cantrips). Sure, there are some DMs that run marathon games where an kineticist would shine, but a typical game has characters resting when they are out of resources (spells, arcane points, judgements, hps, etc). In those typical circumstances, "single uses of spells" are pretty much infinite.

ASharkInAPanzerNamedShark: As for not wanting to compare to the sorcerer because there isn't as much content for the kineticist, isn't that the point of this thread? To make more content?

Tels wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Letariel wrote:

If we are honestly talking about fixing Kineticist damage output, you need to up the damage of the base kinetic blasts. If you compare them to a moderately optimized archer (aka, an archer that uses a composite longbow and takes the archery feats), they look quite bad. Heck, compare the kineticist single-target damage to a wizard/sorcerer using evocation spells, and they do worse damage (and that's ignoring that the caster is doing damage in an AoE).

The kineticist should not deal as much damage as an optimized archer. Archers churn out some of the highest damage in the game at the cost of being a one-trick pony due to action economy, feat hunger, and the design of martial classes. Kineticists have much more options, versatility, and ways to bypass defenses all while not requiring any weapons or long feat chains to be effective.

Nor should a class be dealing that much damage if it cannot be disarmed, run out of ammo, or run out of resources allowing that amount of damage.

Tels and Cyrad have it right. The only way to prevent a Kineticist from blasting is to either knock him out or bind his hands, both of which can be rather hard- all kineticist elements have some method of transportation other than walking, climbing, or swimming, which can make them very hard to get to, and the number of enemeies who would tend towards binding hands are rather few and far between. Archers almost always win the DPR olympics. That's a given.

Ok, forget the archer comparison, and instead go with the sorcerer comparison. A sorcerer going for evocation (let's say fireball or battering blast as the most common) will always do more damage, assuming it's not a total marathon game (which is pretty rare). And the sorcerer will also being flying/invisible/untouchable and have utility spells, so the utility comparison will be similar. Am I wrong?

swoosh wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Kineticists are pretty good, actually. They're strong, interesting, and have great flavor. It's not a bad class, just not very well written.

They most certainly are not pretty good. They struggle with damage outside niche scenarios and struggle with utility outside niche scenarios and don't really offer much else to the group. They can be interesting and do have great flavor, but that doesn't change the fact that they are quite bad.

The primary thing about them that's poorly written after all is how bad various mechanics are.

I will make the argument that a Kineticist with Kinetic Blade does end up being very competitive with damage, compared to a fighter, and has the option to hit either touch AC for less damage or normal AC for lots of damage. Other than that, the Kineticist really needs a lot of help, which is why I'm writing most of this- I've drafted out a number of new utility wild talents and a number of new infusions to expand options, which is roughly 75% of what this homebrew is.

If we are honestly talking about fixing Kineticist damage output, you need to up the damage of the base kinetic blasts. If you compare them to a moderately optimized archer (aka, an archer that uses a composite longbow and takes the archery feats), they look quite bad. Heck, compare the kineticist single-target damage to a wizard/sorcerer using evocation spells, and they do worse damage (and that's ignoring that the caster is doing damage in an AoE). Let's also forget that the Kineticist can't match the range of a longbow or fireball unless they use a specific set of form infusions, which further reduces their versatility (since they can only have one form infusion).

If you did up the base blast damage, you'd have to account for that Kinetic Blade deals more hits (perhaps halve the damage you do w/ Kinetic Blade per strike?), and figure out how to make composite blasts balanced (because doubling damage that is competitive sounds insane), but that is just number tweaking.

Letariel wrote:

I don't understand what makes the Animated Objects so good. Could you explain it to me?

For the record, I think both options are un-optimized in terms of combat. To answer your question, I'll compare both at Kineticist level 10...

I think I value a flying, invisible creature a little more highly than you do for both in and out of battle utility, and I'd definitely be having the elemental use the telekinetic throw to chuck stuff at enemies in combat (+8 to-hit, 2d6+2 damage, and if they burn their AoO on a worthless summon, all the better), but I think I see where you're coming from. I hadn't realized the scaling on these guy's combat stats were quite that low. And particularly since the scaling is even worse as you go up in levels, they are more movable obstructions than real combatants. I can definitely see both of these talents as "not optimal" in a combat sense (though probably still decent).

As for the uses out of battle I hadn't thought about the utility of just being able to have something that small or that big, and animating castles and such is pretty cool; I guess hadn't realized just how big "colossal" was. :-)

Thanks, I was clicking on the specific object entry (straight jacket, manacles, etc). Hmm it doesn't seem much more helpful in combat than an Animated Object at any given Kineticist level. The constant Greater Invisibility is pretty awesome, but so many enemies have ways to See Invisibility by now that it's much less helpful than it should be. I just see a lot more utilitarian usage from Animated Objects than Elementals. All the useful things the elemental can do in or out of combat, I can already do. Thanks for the help and suggestion, though!

P.S. Indeed, I've been hauling for days!

I don't understand what makes the Animated Objects so good. Could you explain it to me?

I really like the Aether Puppet Utility Wild Talent. I recognize it's really not meant for combat beyond providing flanking or obstacles, but the out-of-combat uses really tickle my fancy. The problem is, I can't really figure out how to stat them. The SRD lists example objects for each size category, but beyond those specific cases, I'm at a loss. Is there a place I can stat up an animated object quickly and reliably?

You just use the stat block that Paizo has given you. For example, the medium animated object would use this one. You already linked the full list in your post, so you can just follow the links. :-)

If you want my opinion, I really feel like the "Spark of Life" ability that is available at the same level is really more flexible, as summoning an aether elemental give you the same flanking/obstacle in combat, but has permanent greater invisibility, can fly, throws things (and creatures) around for even more control/chaos in battle than you usually cause, and doesn't require your GM to have a conveniently large object in the middle of every fight. The only thing it doesn't do is let you move obscenely large objects around easily, but you were taking Telekinetic Haul anyway, right? :-P

I am looking into getting into a level 15 game its gestalt and the DM is letting us take monsters on one side.

So I decided I wanted to make a character something akin to Natsu
Peri Fire Kineticist sounds about right.

Peri has a CR of 14, so it would be Peri 14/Class 1//Kineticist 15

But I have 0 experience with the class.
I know by 14th level you get two expanded elements so maybe Air would be a good one to replicate a Lightning focus, especially with the immunity to Electricity.

Can anyone with experience help me out? I just need solid advice on how to set this up.

I don't know much about taking monsters, but if you want to make a keneticist, you are going to do some reading up, because they are Complicated. I'll recommend Mastering the Elements as a start. As for a kineticist going fire into lighting, you won't have a composite blast, and are going to have problems with things that have multiple elemental resistances; make sure you are ok with that.

As for an actual build, if you want to be like Natsu, there's nothing to let you eat fire, but you'll have a couple extra tricks that Natsu never got. :-) Kinetic Weapon/Whip seems like a staple for his heavy melee style (Kinetic Fist is closer, but it's strictly worse unless you have a bunch of natural attacks, so reflavor to taste). Also Fan of Flames is kinda like his breath attack. Of course, if you want to use the ranged attacks, you'll need to take the typical ranged feats (sans Rapid Shot) along with Finesse to let you use your Whip without investing into strength. After that, you can just pick the other tricks you like, as there are a bunch of them, and none of them scream "Natsu" to me. :-) Are you planning on going full damage, or what?

So... do caster level buffs to Dispel Magic actually apply to this? It's not casting the spell or using it in anyway, just 'as if using dispel magic.

As the section you quoted, yes, it does everything as if you are casting dispel magic, with the stated exception that it doesn't trigger anything if you are successful.

How does one escape a "grappling infusion"? I don't see a CMD.

My assumption would be that the "treat it as a huge creature" would mean that its CMD would be 12 + Kineticist level + Con mod (the wall doesn't have any Dex to add, and your Con is treated as its Str mod).

Do they take 1/2 damage or 1/4 damage from the wall each turn

It's not specified for the Wall form, but I would treat it the same as a creature ending its turn in the Cloud form, which specifies that it takes 1/2 blast damage each round. The two forms pretty much identical except for shape, so I imagine that is the intent.

Quote:

Keep in mind this is for a full caster, so extra caster levels won't help ( They can't go above HD ).

Unless they specifically state otherwise caster level increases can push you above your HD. Unfortunately, there aren't too many of these. There's the Varisian Tattoo (aka mage's tattoo) feat which gives you +1 CL to one school of magic, the Spell Specialization feat that gives you +2 CL to a single spell, and the Orange Prism Ioun Stone which is very expensive but a slotless +1 CL. Combine all of those and you have a respectable +4.

Don't forget that counterspelling counts as a caster level check, so the Kimono helps. Also if you get all those feats to boost dispel magic, you can get spell perfection on it to double it all. I've heard of characters getting up to a caster level of 36 if they stack everything on dispelling (like Sela), so you could be a very effective counterspeller, if you focus. Also, don't forget the obvious other things like the Greater Counterspell and Counter Drain exploits. :-)

I'm an arcanist in Rise of the Runelords, so this thread may have some spoilers.

We just found a set of Thassilonian ruins with a cool library in the basement, and I'm thinking I'll make it my home base. I have some questions for the knowledgeable people here.

1. The place is in ruins, and there is rubble everywhere. Prestidigitation/Unseen Servant can do the cleaning, but is there any spells that would help me clear the rubble without having to resort to physical labor (it's so slow and... un-magical)? As far as I can tell, Disintegrate will only destroy one block at a time, and Stone Shape will only reshape one chunk of rock at a time. Unseen Servant can only move the small rocks, and even then, what do I do with a random pile of rocks? Would Fabricate let me re-shape the rubble into walls or something? Any other ideas?

2. Now that I have a place that I'm staying, I need to protect it! I figure just putting a lock on the door isn't good enough... My initial thought is to entirely wall in the basement and make it look like it isn't there (because Wall of Stone is awesome). That should keep out random people/monsters and anyone out that can't either Stone Shape or Teleport. Anything more I could/should do? Of course nothing will keep out a persistent DM, but I should at least look like I'm trying. :-) I was thinking of trying to do something with Teleport Trap (castable next level), but I think I would also catch myself in it when I teleport home, and I don't know how to get around that.

3. I was thinking of lining the walls with lead to prevent scrying (and other divinations), but I can't find anywhere what the price of lead is! Does anyone know where to find that? Of course, actually transporting it from the nearest town could also be a chore, but I think I can get my very strong party member (with ant haul) to pick it up long enough to teleport to the area. We may have to make several trips, I'm not sure. Next level I'll be able to cast Teleport Object, so that would also make this doable. My initial thought for getting it into the walls was a combination of Stone Shape and Fabricate.

4. Even with magic, this is going to take a lot of time (since I'm going to be using my few high-level spell slots pretty quickly), and I think I'll only have a week or so to do it in. Any way to do this better/faster? I know about the Lyre of Building, but it's pretty expensive, and I'm no bard.

It's probably already assumed by most, but you'll also want as many 9th level Runestones of Power as you can carry. And you can carry a lot of them in your Handy Haversack.

Lots of good stuff.

I've tried out Emergency Force Sphere, and it keeps me safe, but then I'm stuck in a bubble for the rest of the fight, and that feels really bad to me.

I'm definitely getting a ring of invisibility as soon as I can. Starting a fight invisible, doing some summoning, buffing, or difficult terrain for the early parts of the fight, and not even being being visible until turn 3 sounds pretty awesome.

The mount shenanigans sound pretty fun, but my GM ruled that the mount spell is for traveling and can't be used in combat. As it is, my normal summons do the job of causing havok pretty well, so I don't have much complaints. :-)

I Wouldn't have done it on a strong solo type enemy...

I was using the buffs, Defending Bone (DR 5/B), Mage armor, Breeze, Read magic, False Life, and see invisibility.

Ah, I see. I've been using ablative barrier and mage armor as my daily defensive casts, but even the mooks are ogres or giants wielding greatclubs so defending bone doesn't do much for me (and also why I spend so much time trying to fly away/above enemies). Thank you for pointing out Resinous Skin, that should be helpful against greatclubs. Eventually, I want to move to Stoneskin, but I don't have enough free cash for it right now.

...Proud to say I have done just that. They couldn't break my DR and decided to grapple me....I just pulled my dagger and started cutting.

I'm really interested in how you got your wizard to have such high DR. I know there are a couple spells to get DR 5, but none of them seem to last long enough to make such a small DR worth it to me (even with DR 5, if a decently strong enemy hits me twice then I'm going down).

I just think they should make an update to the list, why are you only able to summon monster from that specific book?

I think Paizo has said that they aren't going to add monsters to the summon list, because it would just be giving more and more power (in the form of more options) to that line of spells, and they are already really good. Instead, they will add extra summoning options by adding separate spells (e.g. Summon Accuser).

spiritual weapon:

...
require attack rolls that aint great for a shaman (bab 3/4 and wisdom only).

If this is your only downside, you can fix that with the feat Spiritual Guardian that lets you use your shaman level as your spiritual weapon's BAB. It also gives a bonus against spell resistance. :-)

Playing our allied spellcasters again, hoping for some good recommendations!

Thanks.

It sounds like you are both going for blasting? If so, the stereotypical answer is "fireball all day long". If so, you two should definitely pick up spell specialization on it asap, and probably an elemental metamagic rod in case you run up against a fire resistant enemy. It's for wizards, but this guide would talk about all the different blasting feats/tricks you can do: Blockbuster Wizard Guide

If you aren't blasting, what is the goal of your duo? You don't even both have to be casting the same spells each round, only have the same known spells. So one of you could be casting haste on the party, while the other casts stinking cloud on the enemy... All kinds of fun stuff you could do with +1 caster level at all times!

Make sure you meet the feat prerequisites for everything. Spell Perfection alone requires three metamagic feats and 15 ranks in Spellcraft.

I think I doubled the bonus from Lore Seeker since it was acquired through the Additional Traits feat. (You may want to check with your GM though, as he might not interpret it the same way.)

Bad guy: Hahaha! Your pitiful servants cannot hope to overcome my defenses!

Master summoner/dispeller: Oh? *Dispels defenses*

Bad Guy: What!? No! How could-- *much gnashing of teeth, tearing of flesh, and high-pitched screaming ensues*

:D

I'll have persistent, quicken, and daze for metamagics, and I've been maxing spellcraft, so I should be good when I reach lvl 15. :-)

And your scenario is quite inspiring (I had assumed that at high levels, my summoned friends would basically be walking flanking bonuses). We'll see if I can make that happen. :-D

I'd recommend Destructive Dispel and Dispel Synergy, as your last two feats if you don't already have them. They help to make a successful dispel all the more punishing.

Destructive Dispel sounds awesome. Dispel Synergy sounds less amazing, because it requires a followup spell, but I'm sure I could come up with something. :-P I'm strongly considering getting the counterspell exploits (immediate action counter sounds awesome), but that would take my other feat (extra exploit). If only I had a couple more feats...

All of the awesome Conjuration spells

I noticed a theme of pairing things with dazing metamagic, which mirrors my own thoughts. But most of the awesome conjuration spells (which you list here) are useless against a flying enemy. The ones that effect fliers are Glitterdust (which has no daze synergy, though blind is pretty good), acid spray (which requires enemies to line up, and no allies to be in the way), and Caustic Eruption (which requires a trait that I can't get). I also thought about spamming dazing acid arrow (reapplying daze!), but that give a will save, and the enemies I want to really shut down are the casters so I want to have a reflex or fortitude save if possible... *shrugs*

Any other thoughts?

My abjurer chose greater dispelling for his Spell Perfection feat. The doubling of feat bonuses are HUGE when they grant caster level bonuses. He can dispel people's effects as though he were THIRTEEN levels higher, possibly FIFTEEN! All thanks to Spell Perfection.

WOW! I checked the character sheet, and I see that spell specialization and varisian tattoo after doubling would give you +6, and lore seeker adds another one. SF and GSF only add to saves. Kimono and orange prism ioun add another +5 to 7 which makes it 12 to 14. What am I missing for that last point?

I'm also planning on the kimono and orange prism ioun, but I only have 2 feats left to pick (including spell perfection) before RotR is over, so I can't do the awesome caster level stacking that you did. :-)

I love the concept of "Spell Perfection", but I can't figure out what to pick!

My character is a summoning/conjuration focused wizard which got converted to an occultist (arcanist archetype) after the ACG came out. Right now, my typical combat looks like:

Turn 1: move into position and use Summon SLA (skip if summons are still around from last combat)
Turn 2: Haste party (including summons)
Turn 3: Either throw an AoE debuff into a group of enemies (usually grease or burst of radiance, because I'm in RotR and I've seen nothing but giants for a while), or buff the party further if we are against a solo enemy (because I rarely can land a debuff on a BBEG)
Turn 4: Use whatever spell is appropriate for situation or use a scorching ray wand if victory is assured

From what I've read on the forums, it seems the default use for this feat is an attack spell that you spam twice a round, but I don't really do that. The closest I have right now is Grease, and that doesn't really benefit from repeated casting.

The two spells that I have half a mind to use Spell Perfection on are Haste and Dispel Magic, but I'm not sure if either is a good idea.

Haste lets me Quicken Haste the first round of every combat, but then what do I do with myself after there is summons, haste, and disabled enemies? There are serious diminishing returns on buffs and debuffs. :-) I guess I could toss Acid Arrows?

Dispel Magic is because it seems that the enemies that causes us issues are the ones with tons of buffs or terrible debuffs. But Dispel Magic uses a caster level check and ignores Spell Resistance, so it doesn't benefit from Spell Perfection other than the free metamagic (and what metamagic would I use other than quicken?). This spell is quite a bit more circumstantial, but it has saved the party's bacon a number of times. I'd like to be able to do Greater Dispel Magic, but I can't quicken that, so free metamagic is less enticing.

Anyway, does anyone have any good Spell Perfection suggestions for a character who mostly casts buffs and debuffs? Ideally, something that could benefit from my conjuration spell focus. And before people suggest it, I'm not going to start chucking maximized fireballs any time soon; it doesn't fit the character, and doesn't pair well with my party's "mob the enemy!" style of combat. :-P

If you aren't strict on what you consider "binding", you could always grab the Summon Good Monsters Feat and use the Summon Monster spells to summon various celestial creatures to aid you. That's basically what I'm doing with my character, and it works out well. Of course, at low levels, you won't be able to summon those 4 classes of creatures that you mention, and will have have to settle for celestial animals. As consolation prizes go, celestial eagles are quite nice. :-)

you have 1/day of hideous laughter

you have 1/day of sleep.
You combine those to say, hideous laugher and sleep 1/day. or flip that to be exactly as it's written.
It would say something like 1/day they can use 1 of the following or something like that if they wanted it to mean that.

Sadly, the default format has no "and" and no "or", just the comma, which is why I wasn't sure. But it sounds like "and" is the general consensus. :-)

Thanks!

Once each.

Is this in the rules anywhere, or is this just "common knowledge"?