So, I've seen a few posts here and there about the pros of going straight Dexterity with a scimitar for the Magus, but I'm wondering: From a DPR standpoint and a MAD standpoint what is better to focus on? Dexterity or Strength? You don't need dexterity for spell combat, but dexterity makes you that much more MAD if you don't take the feat Dervish Dance.
So which is better?
AND!
Which would you personally run?
Depends on what armor you want to use, and where you want your feats to go.
Dex requires more feats for damage, Strength requires more to help with the AC, and doesn't grab the same level of AC until later.
Strength is easier on the offensive potential though so it leaves more feats free for things like preferred spell (if you want it) or spell focus, extra arcana or whatnot.
Depends on what armor you want to use, and where you want your feats to go.
Dex requires more feats for damage, Strength requires more to help with the AC, and doesn't grab the same level of AC until later.
Strength is easier on the offensive potential though so it leaves more feats free for things like preferred spell (if you want it) or spell focus, extra arcana or whatnot.
So which one would you run?
The closer you get to level 11 the better a strength build looks. At level 11 a strength build can successfully bypass a dex build, and have two extra feats AND access to a wider range of weaponry to boot.
However, before level 11, two feats and a scimitar gives you better AC, init, and reflex with only the loss of carrying capability (which isn't that extreme either). That said, it still costs you two feats and a you have to use a scimitar, and you lose some skill points too (though not majorly).
Before level 11 I'd say it's to some degree a vague matter of style - they both have advantages, due to the feat cost of the dex build. After level 11, I'd say strength is probs better. You gotta get there first, though, and dexterity doesn't trail that far behind strength either.
The closer you get to level 11 the better a strength build looks. At level 11 a strength build can successfully bypass a dex build, and have two extra feats AND access to a wider range of weaponry to boot.
However, before level 11, two feats and a scimitar gives you better AC, init, and reflex with only the loss of carrying capability (which isn't that extreme either). That said, it still costs you two feats and a you have to use a scimitar, and you lose some skill points too (though not majorly).
Before level 11 I'd say it's to some degree a vague matter of style - they both have advantages, due to the feat cost of the dex build. After level 11, I'd say strength is probs better. You gotta get there first, though, and dexterity doesn't trail that far behind strength either.
You guys keep forgetting the second question :P Which build would your style fit? And why?
You guys keep forgetting the second question :P Which build would your style fit? And why?The closer you get to level 11 the better a strength build looks. At level 11 a strength build can successfully bypass a dex build, and have two extra feats AND access to a wider range of weaponry to boot.
However, before level 11, two feats and a scimitar gives you better AC, init, and reflex with only the loss of carrying capability (which isn't that extreme either). That said, it still costs you two feats and a you have to use a scimitar, and you lose some skill points too (though not majorly).
Before level 11 I'd say it's to some degree a vague matter of style - they both have advantages, due to the feat cost of the dex build. After level 11, I'd say strength is probs better. You gotta get there first, though, and dexterity doesn't trail that far behind strength either.
Personally? I'd probs go dex, but that's because I like the aesthetics of high dex characters better then high strength ones, not for any mechanical reason.
Personally? I'd probs go dex, but that's because I like the aesthetics of high dex characters better then high strength ones, not for any mechanical reason.You guys keep forgetting the second question :P Which build would your style fit? And why?The closer you get to level 11 the better a strength build looks. At level 11 a strength build can successfully bypass a dex build, and have two extra feats AND access to a wider range of weaponry to boot.
However, before level 11, two feats and a scimitar gives you better AC, init, and reflex with only the loss of carrying capability (which isn't that extreme either). That said, it still costs you two feats and a you have to use a scimitar, and you lose some skill points too (though not majorly).
Before level 11 I'd say it's to some degree a vague matter of style - they both have advantages, due to the feat cost of the dex build. After level 11, I'd say strength is probs better. You gotta get there first, though, and dexterity doesn't trail that far behind strength either.
Cool. Cool. You can tell those BDFs to screw off lol
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I second that favoritism towards Dex, if only for the fact that investing in it for weapon finesse (Which can be used with your black blade, and most 1-handed weapons you would want to use anyway) will get you 90% of the effect that you want out of your melee attack rolls anyway, that being that you actually hit. Adding damage from a statistic (Strength or Dex in the case of Dervish Dance) on a Magus is pointless compared to all of the other effects you will be doing between your on the fly weapon enhancements, a nice spell storing quality, spellstrike, and the ability to "hold" a charge in your weapon for a few rounds to use it in conjunction with spell combat. +2-3 damage from your stat is nothing compared to being able to spend those points into your dex and get better skills, in combat mobility (Through acrobatics), and more AC.
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I'd probably go STR. In the end, the feats don't come easily unless the character is human or if there are multi-classing involved.
A magus just needs to be able stay reasonably close using non-magic means to deal damage, and then nova when the time is right. 16 STR is probably enough. Lower starting INT is probably okay. CON should be 14 ideally, but I'm not sure what to do with my own elven bladesinger style with the -2 CON.
I can see going either way, strength based blade bound (shinigami!) is very appealing.
Perhaps posting stat blocks would be more useful as there even merit in a balenced str dex build mainly due to the benefits and versatility of high int to ac and attcks via arcana
For my 25pt build current thinking bout 12 16 12 19 12 7 human
5pts from levelling all go int to 24 which gives a final of 30 with +6 hedband or +10 arcana buffs and when you consider that a few points plus of minus in str dex don't seem to matter as much
Middle of the road but I'm just like that. I'll looking forward to my spellblade staff magus down the road though, and currently I believe I'll end up with two weapon fighting (if not much more beyond that).
Perhaps posting stat blocks would be more useful as there even merit in a balenced str dex build mainly due to the benefits and versatility of high int to ac and attcks via arcana
For my 25pt build current thinking bout 12 16 12 19 12 7 human
Why not put the points into dex instead of int? You only need a 16 to cast your highest one, and your spell list doesn't rely on SoS or SoL spells (although there are some).
Middle of the road but I'm just like that. I'll looking forward to my spellblade staff magus down the road though, and currently I believe I'll end up with two weapon fighting (if not much more beyond that).
Can you stack TWF with spell combat? I thought that Spell Combat acted like TWF
EDIT: without the extra spells as attacks. clarified.
Middle of the road but I'm just like that. I'll looking forward to my spellblade staff magus down the road though, and currently I believe I'll end up with two weapon fighting (if not much more beyond that).Can you stack TWF with spell combat? I thought that Spell Combat acted like TWF
EDIT: without the extra spells as attacks. clarified.
Yeah, won't be casting every round -- the shield bonus from the staff is attractive, and I'm wondering about using the spell blade with spell combat while casting from the staff... I'm going to have to really look things over before I'm sure that is kosher though.
Why not put the points into dex instead of int? You only need a 16 to cast your highest one, and your spell list doesn't rely on SoS or SoL spells (although there are some).Perhaps posting stat blocks would be more useful as there even merit in a balenced str dex build mainly due to the benefits and versatility of high int to ac and attcks via arcana
For my 25pt build current thinking bout 12 16 12 19 12 7 human
Bigger arcane pool, larger arcana bonuses and better dc whixh also apply to hexes I prob should have mentioned was looking at making a hexcraft blackblade
I plan to go Str over Dex.
You pick Shield, get to heavier armor and have spells like Vanish, Invisibility, Blur, Displacement and Greater Invisibility to avoid getting attacked. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha is how I'll do it.
I plan to go Str over Dex.
You pick Shield, get to heavier armor and have spells like Vanish, Invisibility, Blur, Displacement and Greater Invisibility to avoid getting attacked. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha is how I'll do it.
Interesting strategy. Something I'd expect a Scrollmaster to do, not a magus. Why this route?
Interesting strategy. Something I'd expect a Scrollmaster to do, not a magus. Why this route?I plan to go Str over Dex.
You pick Shield, get to heavier armor and have spells like Vanish, Invisibility, Blur, Displacement and Greater Invisibility to avoid getting attacked. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha is how I'll do it.
Interesting thing with the magus spell combat let's you buff and contribute to melee at the same time rather than having to spend first couple of rounds buffing if you don't have warning plus the miss chance spell are often better than ac not to mention stoneskin dr goodness
Interesting thing with the magus spell combat let's you buff and contribute to melee at the same time rather than having to spend first couple of rounds buffing if you don't have warning plus the miss chance spell are often better than ac not to mention stoneskin dr goodnessInteresting strategy. Something I'd expect a Scrollmaster to do, not a magus. Why this route?I plan to go Str over Dex.
You pick Shield, get to heavier armor and have spells like Vanish, Invisibility, Blur, Displacement and Greater Invisibility to avoid getting attacked. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha is how I'll do it.
But you can't use a shield unless it's a buckler anyway
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Strength.
You can choose any race you want at first level and you can choose any single-handed weapon you want. You don't have to spend two specific feats (one of which isn't in the CRB), so you can spend those on other things.
So if you get, say, the Sword of the Planes in your anti-demon game, you can use it just fine.
Strength is usually my preference since it allows you to use any non-exotic weapon you find. Sure you can go dex and dervish dance, but it isn't going to do you much good when you find that +5 brilliant energy longsword or minor artifact battleaxe.
But you can't use a shield unless it's a buckler anywayInteresting thing with the magus spell combat let's you buff and contribute to melee at the same time rather than having to spend first couple of rounds buffing if you don't have warning plus the miss chance spell are often better than ac not to mention stoneskin dr goodnessInteresting strategy. Something I'd expect a Scrollmaster to do, not a magus. Why this route?I plan to go Str over Dex.
You pick Shield, get to heavier armor and have spells like Vanish, Invisibility, Blur, Displacement and Greater Invisibility to avoid getting attacked. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha is how I'll do it.
Well there are some tricks you can do with free actions and quick draw shield but honestly between the shield spell and shield arcana there is no reason to use a shield in fact with 30 int you are getting a +10 shield bonus with the arcana which you could only do with. Tower shield and good enchament but even the stock +4 shield spell is better than an actual shield in those early levels
You guys keep forgetting the second question :P Which build would your style fit? And why?
I am playing a 7th level magus at the moment.
I have opted for the strength build.My reasoning is pure DPS. I don't really need a lot of AC/Dex at the moment, since I ussually take down even big foes with a couple of hits (even without going nova).
Though I can take Piranha Strike for a Dex build I favor Power Attack since it has better output with a two-handed attack. I vary between wielding a glaive-guisarm and a rokha depending on the setup of the battle. Polearm and Combat Reflexes don't work with Spell Combat, but do with Spell Strike - and very well too.
I find having 14 Dex is more than enough at the momnet, and when heavy armor becomes available I think a Dex build would become obsolete.
As it is I have greater damage output than a Dex magus, have saved two feats and have more than enough AC/hp since I let the tanks/summons take the first hit and then move in for a decisive counter attack.
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My level 2 PFS Human Magus is currently running around thusly:
STR 9, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 17, WIS 10 CHA 7
(20 point buy stings)
He has a mithral shirt so he isn't encumbered, and wields his Heirloom Scimitar. Level 1 and 2 have been a little hairy as his ToHit is currently +2 (+1BAB, -1STR, +1Heirloom Weapon Trait, +1MW).
I can get it to a mighty +3 when I trigger my Arcane Pool. Also I'm doing 1d6-1 damage (1d6 using Arcane Pool).
w00p I'm a combat monster.
Things are going to get A LOT easier at level 3 as I'm suddenly on a base ToHit of +8 (+2BAB, +4DEX, +1HWT, +1MW) and doing 1d6+4 damage.
I'm waiting for this epiphany of 'oh, so that's how I do it', after barely hitting things for a while. Needless to say there have been a lot of cantrips cast so I was doing something. And if nothing else, I've been a potential target to draw attacks to. If I go total defensive with Shield up then my AC is 26. Nothing to be sneezed at. I've effectively been dancing on the spot crying 'stop trying to hit me and hit me'.
Despite struggling for combat presence for two levels he has been a lot of fun to play as I'm having to come up with other ways to contribute to the party eg. Boogie Wonderland Tanking.
But you can't use a shield unless it's a buckler anyway
True, but I meant the Shield spell as Phasics mentions.
I recommend relying on armor and spells for defenses. I ran a group consisting of a pole-arm fighter, switch hitter ranger and magus against my group of 6 players (bad guys were +1 level and under geared). The magus lasted the longest and had a viable exit strategy to get away.
I agree with what The Grandfather says.
I can heal hit points from being hit a few more times after battle. I can't add more damage to monsters at that time. Relying on Strength frees up feats for other things (like Extra Pool or Exotic Weapon-Falcata).
I can't wait to play a magus from low level on up.
But you can't use a shield unless it's a buckler anywayTrue, but I meant the Shield spell as Phasics mentions.
I recommend relying on armor and spells for defenses. I ran a group consisting of a pole-arm fighter, switch hitter ranger and magus against my group of 6 players (bad guys were +1 level and under geared). The magus lasted the longest and had a viable exit strategy to get away.
I agree with what The Grandfather says.
I can heal hit points from being hit a few more times after battle. I can't add more damage to monsters at that time. Relying on Strength frees up feats for other things (like Extra Pool or Exotic Weapon-Falcata).
I can't wait to play a magus from low level on up.
Heh yeah here's the real nugget for the Magus, when all said and done as a frontline fighter you can always cast Dimension Door and GTFO of there, not only that but you can bring along the 1-2 other frontliners with you when you shift.
One last point:
Mediocre AC is not that big a deal when you can cast mirror image.
Take a look an what skills your character will have - if your skills focus on dex (like stealth and acrobatics), go dex
Take a look an what skills your character will have - if your skills focus on dex (like stealth and acrobatics), go dex
except that as a Magus you have access to Jump, cat's grace, blur, invisibility, greater invis etc
making the additional +1-2 bonus from having a higher dex score pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things.
sure there not always on but there not something you need to do all the time. plus some of them are also useful in combat so odds are you'd have some memorised ready to go should a skill challenge of sorts come up.
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There is no core race with a bonus on Strength and Intelligence. There is, however, a core race with a bonus on Dexterity and Intelligence.
I would agree that Str is probably the easier way. Personally, I would want to try out the Dex build, though, since I'm quite fond of the concept of a Dex-based melee combattant. Looks like Pathfinder is finally warming up to the idea with Dervish Dance (though that one is heavily restricted in scope). The Magus looks like a good way to make it work.
(What I'm even more likely to try out, though, is a Vivisectionist. Spellcasting rogues FTW!)
For a str build, what's the stat array people are thinking with like a 20 point buy? Is the thought behind STR build is that the magus will eventually be in heavy armor but not have the advantage that fighter's have with armor training, just curious. I'd think the STR build would be a bit more MAD than the dex/int build.
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Sample Human Magus, level 1
18 STR (including +2 human bonus)
12 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
10 WIS
8 CHA
Reasoning: At 18 strength, you get a +6 to damage when two-handing a weapon such as a longsword or scimitar, which is +2 damage for basically free whenever you're not casting spells. You don't need a ton of intelligence since most of your spells will be either buffs or touch spells, which usually don't involve saves. You need to sink at least 2 points into intelligence over the course of 16 levels with this build, but that's not hard.
Once you have 18 strength, you really have enough, although a little more doesn't hurt. A strength-based magus like this is basically an arc welder with a sword; it kills things as fast as possible. When a strong defense is necessary, this magus relies on spells (shield, mirror image, displacement, invisibility all come to mind).
I adore dex based fighting styles.
That being said, it doesn't work very well in the game; while possible, it always costs more than just pumping strength as high as possible. High strength works with nearly every weapon, while finesse based fighting is limited to a few weapons, most of which are low on the damage side of things.
Dexterity offers a boost to AC and reflex saves, but as you get higher level, it becomes harder and harder to avoid damage by depending on AC; in my experience, in the mid-teens, attack bonuses easily out-strip armor class. The only reliable way to avoid getting hit is through magical means; miss-chances, concealment, etc.
As much as I hate it, strength trumps dexterity.
For a str build, what's the stat array people are thinking with like a 20 point buy? Is the thought behind STR build is that the magus will eventually be in heavy armor but not have the advantage that fighter's have with armor training, just curious. I'd think the STR build would be a bit more MAD than the dex/int build.
My build is:
Human Techno-MagusStr: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
1st level feats I think were Power Attack and Combat Reflexes.
Traits: Arcane Heritage (shocking grasp), Heirloom Weapon (rhoka).
My character wields a glaive-guisarme with a arcane strike or rhoka with arcane strike and spell combat.
Incidentally my magus (lvl 7) scored a critical hit last night with his glaive-guisarme for a total of 122 hp damage. Combined with our tiger-druid's hasted pounce attack it brought down a 200 hp greater cyclops (CR 12) in one round!
Huzzah!
Hitsugaya Toushiro
Human Word Magus (Blade Bound) 5
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 10
HP: 32; AC: 12; Touch: 12; Flat Footed: 10
Fort +4; Ref +3; Will +4 ; Initiative +2; BAB +3
The Black Blade Hyourimaru: +9; 1d10+5; 19-20/X2
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Combat Casting, Meta Word Mastery, Extra Arcane Pool, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Skills:
Special Features: Meta 5/day, Arcane Pool 7/day
Words Known:
Level 0: Acid Burn (Acid), Cold Snap (Cold), Decipher (Language), Flame Jet (Fire), Force Block (Armor), Lift (Gravity), Sense Magic (Detection), Spark (Electricity), Personal (Target), Selected (Target), Cone (Target), Boost (Meta)
Level 1: Burning Flash (Fire), Dash (Time), Fade (Concealing), Force Shield (Armor), Glide (Flight), Radiance (Illumination), Shock Arc (Electricity), Burst (Target), Line (Target), Carefull (Meta), Quiet (Meta), Simple (Meta)
Level 2: Force Bolt (Force), Frost Fingers (Cold), Enhance Form (Body), Corrosive Bolt (Acid)
What would be your feat selection for an Dex based bladebound Magus? I'm starting to play one and some tips would be welcome.
What would be your feat selection for an Dex based bladebound Magus? I'm starting to play one and some tips would be welcome.
What kind of weapon is your blade going to be? If you can get your hands on a scimitar you definately want to see about getting dervish dance. As a magus you are going to be onehanding anyway, so it really synergizes well.
Besides that, what level are you starting at? What is your race? Any initial ideas on what you want to accomplish?
What would be your feat selection for an Dex based bladebound Magus? I'm starting to play one and some tips would be welcome.What kind of weapon is your blade going to be? If you can get your hands on a scimitar you definately want to see about getting dervish dance. As a magus you are going to be onehanding anyway, so it really synergizes well.
Besides that, what level are you starting at? What is your race? Any initial ideas on what you want to accomplish?
I'm an Elf. I will use the Scimitar, I'm at level 2 but want to think about a whole progression till 20th.
The characters idea is to be a duelist, as much arcane as melee, he is trying to change the way people see duels, and make a new "school". My idea was to get step up and the following feats to fight spellcasters and all, but I really want to be good at melle too, without only using spells to do so. Thanks Kolokotroni.
Anyone else? Please?
I play a magus in my weekend game thats a half-giant (from Psionics Unleashed) who uses a large bastard sword one-handed.
I've put all stat increases into intelligence, and have focused on touch attaks and buff/utility spells. So far he has been a blast, and does plenty of damage.
Yes, he fences with a 2d8 weapon :)
EDIT: They get +2 str, +2 Wis and -2 Dex, and can wield weapons, carry, and grapple as if they were large creatures.
Mine is 8'2" and weighs 1320 lbs.
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Arcane Strike might be useful, although that eats up your swift action for the round.
Signature Spell combined with Quicken Spell and a melee touch cantrip (either Arcnane Mark or Close Range Acid Splash) allows for an additional attack as a Swift Action, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
Experimental Spellcaster (Borrow Future) grants access to one of the most brokem spells in the game and allows for lots of full attack in one round.
Anyone else?
Anyone else?
Are you going to multi-class into duelist or go single-class magus. Also, any archetypes. What traits are you taking?
The dex build I have in mind is a Keleshite human using scimitar and dervish dance is going to be Blade Bound. My GM is letting me take my black blade as a heirloom weapon. My other trait is one that will be +2 to concentration. I am debating taking Combat Casting at 1st level or not.