Trip Vs. Grapple?

OK, so I'm running a monk/Sorc/Dragon disciple and I have a question. Which is better: Grapple, or trip?

Trip seems more powerful - Knock someone prone, leaving me to do what I want. Cast spells, etc. But it's also a longer feat path. Later on, I can get Ki throw and in a pinch trip even larger creatures.

Improved Grapple on the other hand is a much shorter feat path, and seems like it'll synergize well with being able to transform into a large dragon later on (Dragon wrestling match anyone?) The downside is it doesn't lend itself well to say, casting spells, or fighting against multiple enemies. I can also get feats later that make pinned opponents act like cover, and although unwise, it's still an option to tackle a flying enemy.

Any thoughts? Experience with combat maneuvers and their usefulness towards higher levels?

All the combat maneuvers become more difficult succeed with at higher levels. The thing about trip is that at high levels, there can just be SO MUCH that's flying or airwalking or otherwise untrippable.

Grapple IMO...after a certain point it gets near impossible to trip things...especially with the BAB system you have going. Even grapple will be a tough maneuver if you ask me.

I think you summed up the pros and cons of each pretty well.

Trip = good against grounded hordes.
Grapple = good against single opponents anywhere.

Here are two points that I always consider when trying to decide between two very cool abilities.

1) How would each ability synergies with the rest of the group?
2) Which ability would feel cooler to play?

It seems like you considered this, but I personally am not a big fan of intentionally giving myself the grappled condition as a caster and forcing concentration checks on all my spells. As pointed out by others, Trip runs into more and more creatures/situations where it can't be used or isn't effective, but grapple will always hinder your spell casting.

Whichever way you choose to go remember Truestrike will add to you CMB.

Having a very similar character in PFS, I would recommend Grapple, as it also helps your CMD, and there are a lot more things that grab than trip.

Think about the Wildblooded: Empyreal sorcerer bloodline. Then you can focus more on Wis than on Cha, and then maybe go for the Maneuver Master Monk (by 5th level, as a swift action, you get to add your Wisdom bonus to your CMB).

As a Maneuver Master you also get bonus feats that can be chosen from Improved Trip and Grapple - thereby obliviating the need for Combat Expertise and therefore you don't need 13 Int. Then you're just back to the stat-madness of being a monk and "only" need high Str, Dex, Con and Wis :)

Uh - and remember - if you trip someone first, then you'll get +4 on your grapple check :)

So - as a Maneuver Master using flurry of maneuvers, you can start by using your regular attack to trip you opponent (swift action for + wisdom) and then use your flurry manuever to grapple them (with +4 for them being prone). That's in one round, and not a bad deal :)

Throw in "Vicious Stomp" and you also get an unarmed strike in there (AoO) - and this at a level (5th) where most people only get one attack per round...

you can also trip with an AOO, but not grapple on an AOO

plus as power levels increase grapple has 'less impact' and trip becomes 'harder to achieve'

IMO/IME

As someone that uses combat maneuvers heavily I can tell you that trip is a far better maneuver to pursue. Tripping enemies requires less commitment and it's a lot more action economy friends early on.

I found grapple most effective for shutting down single primary spell casters (your build is probably already pretty good for that by just killing them with massive damage) and their CMD isn't usually nearly as high so the odds are still good.

Sometimes grapples are good for stopping specialists with a certain weapon that can not be used while grappling. (Ex: An advanced skeleton with 6 arms powerful magic scimitars and a bunch of scimitar feats, grapple and now scratching for d3 damage.) But that becomes progressively more difficult as the levels go up.

Trips are good if you have reach (say a huge dragon) and combat reflexes to get alot of attempts. But must of the people that you will be trying to trip end up being the melee types that are closing with you or your allies and they have the best CMD. But you will also get more attempts.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Depends upon what you want to try and do with your PC. Do you want to be the guy that bounds past the front line to wrestle with the caster in back (you tend to take alot of attacks by yourself if you do, so have high hps)? Then grapple. Are you wanting to slow down the hordes that are closing with your group? then trip?

All combat maneuvers are not created equal. Bull rush, overrun, trip, drag, and reposition have a size limitation - they cannot be performed if the target is more than one size category larger than you. At higher levels, when the monsters get bigger and bigger, the maneuvers with size limitations are less and less viable. You cannot even attempt to trip a huge dragon if you are medium.

In exchange for the limitation, you get a lot of benefits - being knocked prone is much nastier than being grappled, especially if you take AoOs from everyone on the way down (Greater Trip) and will get the same when you stand up (everyone has Combat Reflexes). However, you only get that if the rest of the party is willing to engage in the right tactics and take the right feats to support tripping.

With the correct support, trip is absolutely devastating, when you can do it. Grapple is less effective, always available and requires nothing from your group.

Mike J,
I don't think the size issue is as big a deal for him since his build will have him often changing into a larger and larger dragon when in combat.

As someone that uses combat maneuvers heavily I can tell you that trip is a far better maneuver to pursue. Tripping enemies requires less commitment and it's a lot more action economy friends early on.

I agree that trip has more general usefulness (at least at lower levels), but there are a few situations where grapple does very well (particularly vs. spellcasters).

Getting good at Trip means putting 13+ into Int.

Getting good at grapple means putting a feat towards it.

So it depends on your character. As MAD as your character sounds, I would go for grapple.

@Kamelguru - depends on if you're a maneuver master and how many levels you take. A 6th level maneuver master can get Greater Trip as a bonus feat.

I almost want to delete this thread, after looking over both.

Kydeem is correct: size limitation isn't as big a deal for me considering I will be able to transform into a large dragon. That said, I've ultimately come to the conclusion that both suck and are feat hogs considering I won't be able to get them until later levels. Besides, dragon transformations are limited and I should take something that's useful with and without it.

I'm going to post a new thread shortly with my chosen build so people can rule check it for me, and point out anything I'm forgetting.

Understandable, both options are very difficult to get good at without quite a few levels of fighter or monk for the extra/free feats.

If you are only going th 4 levels of monk, it would be difficult.

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree Trayce. If your GM lets you cross-blood the empyreal sorcerer and one of the dragon bloodlines, I think it could be ok, although maybe not optimized. Two levels of maneuver master monk, 3 levels of sorcerer and then 10 levels dragon disciple. We'll go with human for the extra feat.

I'll try a quick build (just the basics)...