Manzorian = Tenser ???

In the AoW Overload, Erik suggests that in Greyhawk, the archmage Manzorian should become Tenser.

But Tenser (along with Otiluke) was killed in 584 by Rary the Traitor. (Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, p. 156.)

Maybe Bigby instead?

Tenser was brought back via a Clone in a module several years ago, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

Wasn't that in the Return of Eight . . .

Yup; it was in Return of the Eight that Tenser came back to life.

Heh . . . and I've been accused of being a Realms fanatic . . .

Don't worry, you still could be. How many novels can you name with Drizzt in them?

Too many . . . I prefer to count novels with Elaith Craulnobur in them . . . or Khelbun (which, come to think of it, would be an interesting person to see meet up with Tenser).

Elaith Craulnober appears in the next issue of Dragon, with an exclusive story by Elaine Cunningham.

FYI.

--Erik

Erik, that was such a perfect segway . . . nice assist, lol.

I know very little about Greyhawk. I wanted to find out who the "King" of Greyhawk (or the equivalent) was for roleplaying purposes so I did a search on Greyhawk. I ended up at Wikipedia; perhaps a strange tool to use in this respect, but it led me to a new question….

I was going to replace Manzorian with Tenser since we are using Greyhawk, but I noticed that Mordenkainen might also fit the role of Manzorian. Mordenkainen is apparently an archmage whom is firmly seated in the role as a balancing force. Question: Why is Temser a better fit than Mordenkainen?

Question: Why is Tenser a better fit than Mordenkainen?

Tenser lives in the right place; Mordenkainen's home is much farther away from where the adventures are taking place.

Tenser is generally a nicer guy, and more likely to reach out and help PCs than Mordenkainen is.

Erik can certainly answer this question in more detail, but those two reasons above are the primary reasons we chose Tenser.

The Fortress of Unknown Depths is Tenser's home. BTW, the "Return of the Eight" outlines the fortress and the town of Magepoint in considerable detail; maps, floor plans, NPCs, traps, etc. Even if you don't run the mod it's a handy resource for AOW.

Since we're somewhat on the subject of Greyhawk, where do I find the campaign setting for it? Do I have to go rooting around on ebay? Can't be that hard to find.

Pelor loves you.

Is Magepoint on the big Dungeon map of Greyhawk? I couldn't see it.

One question I don't see answered here...If Manzorian is Tenser why did you make him Manzorian and not Tenser in the AoW?

The Powers that Be thought using "Tenser" would make people think they had to use Greyhawk, which they don't.

--Erik

Manzorian is really Manshoon doncha know?

I know very little about Greyhawk. I wanted to find out who the "King" of Greyhawk (or the equivalent) was for roleplaying purposes so I did a search on Greyhawk. I ended up at Wikipedia; perhaps a strange tool to use in this respect, but it led me to a new question….

Actually, Wikipedia isn't that strange a source for Greyhawk. In fact, over the past few months, I've been encouraging fellow Greyhawkers to contribute to Wikipedia, as very few of the Greyhawk entries at that time seemed to have been written by Greyhawk "experts." Things are slowly improving though,and the amount of GH info on Wikipedia continues to grow. In fact, here's one of my entries that could use some work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Lake_(Greyhawk)

Question: Why is Temser a better fit than Mordenkainen?

To add to James´ reply, IIRC Tenser is Lawful Good, while Mordenkainen is True Neutral. This would probably play no role, as Kyuss is a big enough threat to the balance that Mordy would still intervene, but Tenser is still more helpful because of his alignment, I´d say.

Stefan

Speaking of Tenser, I remember reading in the history of the Circle of Eight that Tenser had an ally who was a cleric of Boccob named Riggby, if I remember correctly. I was wondering if Agath is the AoW representation of Riggby as Manzorian is to Tenser.

Speaking of Tenser, I remember reading in the history of the Circle of Eight that Tenser had an ally who was a cleric of Boccob named Riggby, if I remember correctly. I was wondering if Agath is the AoW representation of Riggby as Manzorian is to Tenser.

No, Agath of Thrunch (sp?) is a character first appearing as a high-level PC in Island of the Ape , IIRC.

No, Agath of Thrunch (sp?) is a character first appearing as a high-level PC in Island of the Ape , IIRC.

Thanks for the info.

Is Magepoint on the big Dungeon map of Greyhawk? I couldn't see it.

You can find Magepoint on the Domain of Greyhawk map that came with the Greyhawk Player's Guide.

As always, thanks everyone for the quick and insightful input! As Wizards would say, "Game On!"

Orcwart wrote:

Is Magepoint on the big Dungeon map of Greyhawk? I couldn't see it.

You can find Magepoint on the Domain of Greyhawk map that came with the Greyhawk Player's Guide.

Is that the Gazetteer?

Hagen wrote:

Orcwart wrote:

Is Magepoint on the big Dungeon map of Greyhawk? I couldn't see it.

You can find Magepoint on the Domain of Greyhawk map that came with the Greyhawk Player's Guide.

Is that the Gazetteer?

The Greyhawk Player's Guide came out during 2nd edition. Although short in length, it was a decent enough primer for Greyhawk newcomers and had a great map of the Domain of Greyhawk, including the Cairn Hills, the Mistmarsh, Diamond Lake, Blackwall Keep, and Magepoint.

At one point I was going to include Riggby in Magepoint, but I eventually dropped the idea. Interestingly, Agath is a cleric of Celestian, who is not a god in the core pantheon. The assumption for those who do not care about Greyhawk continuity would probably make him a follower of Boccob, but now you know the rest of the story, as they say.

--Erik

Is Magepoint on the big Dungeon map of Greyhawk? I couldn't see it.

"Tenser's Citadel" is on the Dungeon map, on the southern shore of the Nyr Dyve. It's also known as the Fortress of Unknown Depths, and is about a half mile (or so) offshore from Magepoint.

The point is, Tenser's Citadel and Magepoint are the same location.

Regards,

Jack

...for those who do not care about Greyhawk continuity...

Ewwwww!

:P

Jack
Greyhawk fanboy, addict, and overall admirer

The Greyhawk Player's Guide came out during 2nd edition. Although short in length, it was a decent enough primer for Greyhawk newcomers and had a great map of the Domain of Greyhawk, including the Cairn Hills, the Mistmarsh, Diamond Lake, Blackwall Keep, and Magepoint.

That's a damn good map, but IMO the best map of the Cairn Hills to date can be found in the Doomgrinder module. Magepoint is listed, along with DL, Elmshire, Blackwall Keep, Ft Leman, Steaming Springs, Ery Crossings, the Stirgenest Cairn (though on the map it's unnamed, there's still a cairn marked there), & a host of other villages & towns that remain undetailed in any product to date. The module itself has a short piece of Diamond Lake, as well as the Cult of the Green Lady.

I personally like the idea of having the players hear about this nebulous "Manzorian" for the first half of the Age of Worms. Then, when the Spire of Long Shadows comes around, and they enter his chambers and he is introduced as Manzorian Tenser(!), that will be a treat.

Or does that not fit Greyhawk canon? Is Tenser supposed to be a first name or a last name? Tenser Manzorian?

I don't know if it's canon or not, but I sure do like that idea. :)

Manzorian could be Tenser's elvish name - a la Gandalf, known as Mithrandir and various other names.

I like the idea of Tenser using the name Manzorian, since his return, to retain a degree of unknown. It was widely known that he was killed. Why not allow your enemies to continue to believe you are dead. Tenser crossed paths with Tuerny and Iggwilv during his return, why not keep them in the dark about his actions. I would not want to mess with either of them, even being an archmage.

I love Greyhawk talk!

It is a nice idea having Tenser using Manzorian as an alias.
But to give the revelation maximum impact, the PCs need to know who Tenser was. Otherwise, the reaction would probably be: "Big deal, now Manzorians real name is Tenser, so what ?"

But I doubt the alias idea will work too well, as Tenser/Manzorian still (or again) lives in his old keep. If any of his old enemies gets the information that an unknown archmage now lives in Tensers old keep, they probably guess his real identity and will try to make sure. Archmages are not exactly common, so an unknown archmage will raise more than a few eyebrows.
It will probably work for a while, but this cover ID will not hold too long. After the AP, the cover will probably be blown. But as Tensers enemies are (or could be) epic-level challenges, this might be the start for new adventures.

Stefan

But I doubt the alias idea will work too well, as Tenser/Manzorian still (or again) lives in his old keep. If any of his old enemies gets the information that an unknown archmage now lives in Tensers old keep, they probably guess his real identity and will try to make sure. Archmages are not exactly common, so an unknown archmage will raise more than a few eyebrows.

As I see it the use of an alias is not to mask that he's back, since his enemies are probably aware of that in any case (that's why he won't leave his keep). It's rather to conceal the true identity of the person people are dealing with when he uses agents like Celeste. I would for example have Celeste tell the PCs when they rescue her in SCAP that she's working for an archmage called Manzorian, and not reveal that it's Tenser until they are playing through AoWAP.

In my campaign Manzorian is actually one of the PC wizards from my previous campaigns. At the end of that campaign, the wizard (21st level) created an epic spell that effectively erased him from history. I had hinted at very evil things on the horizon, but already knew that few of the original PCs would be alive when the time came to fight it. The wizard alone discovered the nature of this evil and as my campaign drew to a close he cast the spell and disappeared. Once the original people who met him died there existed no proof that he ever lived. Legend Lore, Diviniations, Scrying all fail or say that no such person existed. Fast forward 250 years and the same wizard uses different names and different bases to do his work. Manzorian, powerful and wise but too secretive and manipulative for Allustan's tastes is perfect for this.

But to give the revelation maximum impact, the PCs need to know who Tenser was. Otherwise, the reaction would probably be: "Big deal, now Manzorians real name is Tenser, so what ?"

Well, you could refer them to the PHB... "Whose Floating Disc?" ;-)

I had planned on chalking the whole Manzorian/Tenser thing up to Manzorian being the name that the new (clone) Tenser uses. Gandalf the Grey fell and was returned to Middle Earth Gandalf the White --> Tenser was killed, but lives on as Manzorian. Not so much as an alias, per se, but actually thinking of himself as a different (evolved?) being.

That's a really cool idea. Not unlike Doctor Who, after a fashion.

--Erik

Sadly, I lost track of Greyhawk for several years there and I'm still trying to get caught up. If I understand correcly, they discovered Tenser and Otiluke's robes, but not bodies. Contingency being the handy spell that it is, maybe Tenser survived after all. No less "cheesey" than the clone idea since, supposedly, Rary destroyed all of their clones as well.

I'm also thinking that Tenser may be using the different name because he really does want to start anew. He sees that Tenser's time is done and has no desire to return to that life, loathing the almost militant neutrality of the Council of Eight thus further explaining his sudden willingness to embrace the heroes sent from his prodigal apprentice when he sees exactly what the still reeling world of Greyhawk is up against. This becomes particularly pointed if the PCs failed in the Champions Belt, thus decimating the one bastion of civilization that was left untouched during the Greyhawk Wars.

End of ramble...

Follow up question. I assume it's common knowledge that Tenser and Otiluke were killed by Rary. Is it commonly known that Tenser returned?

On a related note, I've never read "Return of the Eight" - is Otiluke also back? Assuming Rary isn't back, are there "eight" again? Just wondering.

Thanks

Follow up question. I assume it's common knowledge that Tenser and Otiluke were killed by Rary. Is it commonly known that Tenser returned?

On a related note, I've never read "Return of the Eight" - is Otiluke also back? Assuming Rary isn't back, are there "eight" again? Just wondering.

Thanks

Actually, Ottiluke was not brought back in "Return of the Eight." The eight is in reference to the 3 new members that were recruited to bring the circle back to 8. The only name of the 3 that I can recall is Warnes Starcloak (from the old module "The Island of the Ape.) Right after Tenser was brought back, he left the Circle of the Eight to pursue his own agenda which makes sense since the Circle of Eight was strongly tilted towards Neutrality where as Tenser is Lawful Good (or Lawful Good with Neutral tendencies, according to the older write ups that I have come across over the years.)

Along with Warnes Starcoat from Isle of the Ape, the other two new members are Alhamazad the Wise and Theodain Eriason.

BTW, I've been reading through the old "Return of the Eight", which I downloaded. It's got a complete description of Tenser's Castle, the Fortress of Unknown Depths, complete with all of the magical defenses and descriptions of rooms the PCs might see (refurbished now that Tenser is back in residence). This might be helpful for DMs willing to drop $4 for a bit of extra background and descriptive flavoring. The light blue keep perched on a black rock, circled by hundreds of flying bloodhawks . . . makes the place seem more like an archmage's stronghold and not just a castle. Not to mention the imposing throne room on the first level of the keep, and the oerthblood mine in the basement, and the wall of force drawbridge.

Cymria says, as she ushers you through the passage under the causeway, "Don't TOUCH anything in the Castle without Tenser's permission, if you value your lives!"

BTW, I've been reading through the old "Return of the Eight", which I downloaded.

Rot8 is a highly-underrated GH adventure. Many folks deride the railroady-nature of the some of the materials, but any good DM can work around that. The use of the Fortress of Unknown Depths, Luna, Iggwilv, and Tuerny are all excellent; Rot8 is one of Roger Moore's best contributions to GH lore.

100% agreed.

I concur whole heartedly about Rot8. It was a wonderful module for GH and one module I truly wish I could have been a player in rather then a DM. It's the closest we get to seeing any kind of stats for Iggwilv. (something I'd love to find)

The whole Manzorian is Tenser idea, but the PCs don't find out until later, is a great one. It will work even more perfectly with my current AoW group since they had characters waaaaayyyy back in 2nd edition who played a certain little module called "Return of the Eight" and actually were responsible for bringing Tenser back! I love how the twisting story of D&D allows for such continuity. No other game *does* that. It's awesome.

But, I was wondering: If Tenser is Manzorian, then are any of the other NPCs representative of Greyhawk famous people from ages past? I was especially wondering about Cymria and Eligos?

Cymria of Celadon was Tenser's henchman and proxy in the 2e adventure WGA4 Vecna Lives! (The adventure where Tenser was killed the first time--as opposed to the second time by Rary the Traitor).