Fine-tuning Ancestries

Wednesday, May 24, 2023

Your journey to adventure with the Pathfinder Remaster starts with the Player Core, a mighty tome containing all the rules you need as a player to create a character and take them on epic quests! Just as before, making a character is as simple as ABC: picking your Ancestry, Background, and Class!

This week, we wanted to focus on ancestries a bit to give you a sense of what you can expect from them in the Remaster. Little has changed in for basic ancestry features—you still get starting Hit Points, note your size and Speed, record your attribute boosts and flaws, list out your languages, and so on. The core identity of each ancestry hasn’t changed with the Remaster, so a lot of the descriptive text remains unaltered. But with alignment no longer a part of Pathfinder, we wanted to make sure that you still had a sense of what the ancestry was all about. So, we’ve created popular edicts and anathemas for each ancestry to give you a richer sense of what matters to them, beyond simple good or evil. You can use these as a basis for your character’s code and outlook, taking them as-is for a more traditional approach or tweaking them to spark your own unique ideas for your character. Take a look at the revised Beliefs section of the dwarf ancestry.


A lavishly dressed dwarf noblewomen

Beliefs

Dwarves tend to value honor and closely follow the traditions of their clans and kingdoms. They have a strong sense of friendship and justice, though they are often very particular about who they consider a friend. They work hard and play harder—especially when strong ale is involved. Torag, god of dwarvenkind, is dwarves’ primary deity, though worship of Torag’s family members is also common.

Popular Edicts create art with beauty and utility, hunt the enemies of your people, keep your clan dagger close

Popular Anathema leave an activity or promise uncompleted, forsake your family

As you can see, this gives you a more well-rounded and diverse picture of what members of the dwarven ancestry value as a people. We’re super excited about this change and have already started incorporating this format in our upcoming releases, such as the ardande and talos versatile heritages in Rage of Elements coming out in just a few months!

In addition to this, we’ve taken a hard look at the feats in each ancestry, making sure they’re living up to their design potential. You can expect to see upgrades to several feats to ensure they meet our current design philosophy (I'm looking at you, Stonecunning). Also, we’ve added feats from the Advanced Player’s Guide to the entries in the Player Core. For the dwarf alone, we’ve added Dwarven Doughtiness, Defy the Darkness, and more. Of course, we took this opportunity to create some new feats as well. Take a look at this all-new high-level dwarf feat!


Stonewall [reaction] — Feat 17

Dwarf, Earth, Polymorph
Frequency once per day
Trigger An enemy or hazard’s effect hits you or you fail a Fortitude save against one.

The strength of stone overcomes you so strongly that it replaces your stout body. You become petrified until the end of the current turn. You don’t take any damage from the triggering effect or any other ill effects that couldn’t affect stone.

This brings us to the end of our first round of previews, but you can expect to hear a lot more about the Remaster books in the coming months. If you want to learn more, don’t forget to watch our Pathfinder Remaster panel this weekend at PaizoCon Online! We’ll be going live on Friday from noon to 2 pm PST, right after the keynote address, over on the Paizo Twitch. We hope to see you there!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition
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I'll be honest, the Alignment system is a little too easy to get used to. This seems a little more abstract in some ways. But it does make me wonder, do you have to use the stuff in the new books for the beliefs, or can you come up with your own?


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Twiggies wrote:
Yeah I think a weird thing I'm getting is that, ah, did some people forget that the whole edict and anathema thing in this scenario is completely optional? A player doesn't need any of these (unless they are a cleric barbarian etc which yeah I can see definitely see what people have noted in the overlapping terms). It's purely just little descriptors/prompts to help them with ideas (from what I can tell). Didn't they say in an interview that a character doesn't need any at all?

I don't believe it is being forgotten, people are just trying to mischaracterise the article, purpose and inclusion because it is easier to argue against a silly obtrusive idea than one that literally cannot impact their game and is inherently flexible to a player's wants.

It has been said enough times, that I can't believe in good faith those who are ignoring it aren't choosing to ignore it.


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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

I don't believe it is being forgotten, people are just trying to mischaracterise the article, purpose and inclusion because it is easier to argue against a silly obtrusive idea than one that literally cannot impact their game and is inherently flexible to a player's wants.

It has been said enough times, that I can't believe in good faith those who are ignoring it aren't choosing to ignore it.

I assert that people in general are *very* capable of convincing themselves that the sky is falling and then being resistant to contrary evidence. Partaking in this quintessential human madness doesn't require conscious or intentional bad faith.

It's also true that some people really are quite oblivious sometimes. (I've been those people, sometimes.)


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Warwolf Esheraso wrote:
I'll be honest, the Alignment system is a little too easy to get used to. This seems a little more abstract in some ways. But it does make me wonder, do you have to use the stuff in the new books for the beliefs, or can you come up with your own?

I expect that the ones with mechanical impact will be written into the rulebooks. Much like the Tenets of Good that Champion currently has.

But ones without mechanical impact will be completely free-form. You write your own. There will be suggestions given - they gave us a preview of them in the article here - but they are optional and guidelines.


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I have nothing against the alignment system myself, but I honestly feel that the new edict-anathema system will be more conducive to the roleplaying focus Paizo seems to have. Some of the players I have met take a philosophical view of their characters' moral code, exploring what it means to have any particular alignment, but unfortunately, many I have played with have seen alignment as just a two-letter code on their character sheets, acting however they like without considering how their actions tie into their stated alignment.

To some degree, the new system reminds me of the allegiances system from D20 Modern - rather than being lumped into broad categories, players select a specific list of values, giving characters clearer motivations and helping to distinguish them. For instance, an Iomedaean paladin whose actions are guided by a targeted dedication to the philosophical values of law and good will naturally behave differently from an Eagle Knight who does good deeds because of her dedication to her organization's ideals, even though both would have been filed under "LG" in the alignment system - the former is Lawful Good by intention, while the latter is Lawful Good as a necessary but unintended consequence of her moral beliefs.


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NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Rysky wrote:

I'm just over here scratching my head why they're using Rules Language on things that should not have game mechanics attached, just replace Anathema with Taboo. Or something.

Every other instance of Anathema has mechanical repercussions attached, cultural taboos and stereotypes should not. What are you gonna penalize fem characters for wearing pants?

Minmax cheese and let Dwarf character auto-gain Hero Points for having "clan dagger" written on their character sheet?

Breaking Anathema has consequences for clerics and champions only, not the vast majority of PCs.

IMHO is an advantage to using a unified set of terms to describe "do's and dont's" for roleplaying purposes.

Druids and barbarians as well, no?


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Rysky wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:

{. . .}

I don't think you're supposed to entirely abide by deity anathema especially since they get weird and impossible to adjudicate at times like don't insult a seemingly inanimate object.
That seems really easy to not do actually.

You obviously haven't seen me confronted with a computer that for no reason decides to freeze, corrupt something, or just not work . . . .


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As someone who's typically the silent majority, I want to put my two cents in here.

There seems to be a lot of discussion of 'Racism' or that the edicts and Anathema's are too vague, So I wanted to put my opinion out there.

First of all I want to point out about some of the 'vagueness' others have discussed. For one these are only replacing the 'alignment' section of the Ancestry, everything else about them is the same, so I feel any detail above Lawful Good is MORE information not less, and is actually less vague than it was before. Additionally, I can just see the possibilities with these options provided. Consider you meet a Dwarf and there's no sign of their Clan Dagger? What does that tell you about that character just knowing what typical Dwarven edicts are? Or you meet a dwarf who is always procrastinating and leaving tasks uncompleted. These Beliefs, in the very few lines have added so much more thematic description than "The typical dwarf is lawful good or lawful neutral and prefers to worship deities of those alignments", (in the alignment and Religion section of their current description.

For the Racism comments about "hunt the enemies of your people", there is so much nuanced information here to unpack it's kind of crazy. The whole point is to get away from alignment. Meaning as a member of the Dwarven Ancestry one of the things your culture strives to do is to "hunt the enemies of your people" the enemies could be a neighboring kingdom, the other Dwarven Clans that your family broke ties with or any of a thousand other things. Additionally you can have Edicts that are borderline xenophobic, but still not be racist. You can have preferences without thinking that members of other ancestries are lesser or deserve to die. Not only that but this is a Role Playing game, and allowing there to be conflict based on uncomfortable topics is not something we should try to prevent. It's something that can be present and each individual and individual group can decide what types of topics are brought up at the table.

The last point I have to make here is that all of the Edicts and anathema are optional and only PCs or NPCs that require them will even need to note it. Just as any PC or NPC can follow a deity, there's no real 'mechanical' difference between a Dwarf that follows Torag vs a Dwarf that follows Erastil, it's all thematic and can add to the character if that's something you want to do as a player or GM.

All that said, great work Paizo! These are fantastic and I can't wait to see the rest of the Remaster!

Liberty's Edge

We know that getting Unholy / Holy will be optional.

AFAIK we do not know if Edicts and Anathemas will be. Seeing them appear in Ancestries' descriptions makes me believe they will not be optional.


The Raven Black wrote:
AFAIK we do not know if Edicts and Anathemas will be. Seeing them appear in Ancestries' descriptions makes me believe they will not be optional.

And maybe related to Thaumurge and Investigator's mechanics


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

We know that getting Unholy / Holy will be optional.

AFAIK we do not know if Edicts and Anathemas will be. Seeing them appear in Ancestries' descriptions makes me believe they will not be optional.

It is as optional as the "you might" "others probably" RP guidelines ever was in the CRB. It is as optional as leaving the two squares for alignment blank on your character sheet because you are not a cleric with a deity required alignment. It is as optional as D&D5e traits/bonds/flaws which appeared on the sheet but nobody ever used so a decade later they quietly drop it saying people can write their own motivational backstory.

So unless you are arguing that the existence of a thing means it is not optional - it is optional.


It's also optional vis-a-vis, GMs don't always enforce every rule. (Frankly, enforcing every rule at all times would bog a game session down to complete unplayability. And the folks who try quickly head to lighter game systems.)


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Leon Aquilla wrote:

So instead of alignment, which everyone viewed as stupid for pigeonholing people, we're going with "Most dwarves love art/hold grudges". Really setting ourselves apart from the pack here. This is why people are going to have to pay 250$+ and we're pulping the old core rulebook?

I think I'll stick with alignment.

Who is everyone?


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Kaelizar wrote:

As someone who's typically the silent majority, I want to put my two cents in here.

There seems to be a lot of discussion of 'Racism' or that the edicts and Anathema's are too vague, So I wanted to put my opinion out there.

I am glad to Kaelizar revive this discussion with a solid set of ideas. The PaizoCon news had distracted many of us, including me, with other revelations about the Remastering.

Kaelizar wrote:
First of all I want to point out about some of the 'vagueness' others have discussed. For one these are only replacing the 'alignment' section of the Ancestry, everything else about them is the same, so I feel any detail above Lawful Good is MORE information not less, and is actually less vague than it was before. Additionally, I can just see the possibilities with these options provided. Consider you meet a Dwarf and there's no sign of their Clan Dagger? What does that tell you about that character just knowing what typical Dwarven edicts are? Or you meet a dwarf who is always procrastinating and leaving tasks uncompleted. These Beliefs, in the very few lines have added so much more thematic description than "The typical dwarf is lawful good or lawful neutral and prefers to worship deities of those alignments", (in the alignment and Religion section of their current description.

A few weeks ago in our PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion session, ... well, this reveals a secret from Vault of the Onyx Citadel so it needs a spoiler tag.

Vault of the Onyx Citadel secret:
The party participated in a War Summit with representatives from many nations and factions to coordinate an international response to the Ironfang invasion. The dwarf representative from the Dwarven Sky-Citadel of Kraggodan was Obsik Shalehammer. He was a fake.
Vault of the Onyx Citadel, Part 1 Allies and Enemies, page 8 wrote:

Background Once loyal to Kraggodan, Obsik was exiled after the discovery that he employed mind-manipulating magic to climb the Sky Citadel’s social ladder. He went on to serve as a mercenary spy and saboteur for Molthune, and he now does the same for the Ironfang Legion.

Hidden Agenda Obsik has been hired to steal the sardonyx shard for the Ironfang Legion, and he hopes disrupting the summit will provide the distraction he needs to perform the theft.

When I converted this disgraced dwarf to PF2 rules, I gave him a forgery of a clan dagger. It served the false image he presented and also gave a measure of his true character. He was too honorable to steal a real clan dagger, yet not too honorable to fake a clan dagger.

Vault of the Onyx Citadel, what happened next:
The party quickly learned that Obsik was a spy. One PC had the Lie to Me feat and legendary Deception, so he detects all lies. Furthermore, the party can cast Sending and they contacted Royal Archivist Karburtin Lightbrand back in Kraggodan, whom they had befriended during Siege of Stone. Once Obsik was locked up, they magically transported to Kraggodan to fetch a real diplomat. The module had not anticipated this, so I rolled a random class and level and used a random dwarf name generator.

The party switched from dealing with the dishonorable dwarf to dealing with an honorable dwarf, a dwarf monk Erimdotalyn Icewind. Her family was from icy mountains in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, though she had married into a Kraggodan family. She did not carry a clan dagger. That did not besmirch her honor; rather, it marked her as a different culture.

These bits of lore fill out the flavor of the NPCs.

Kaelizar wrote:
For the Racism comments about "hunt the enemies of your people", there is so much nuanced information here to unpack it's kind of crazy. The whole point is to get away from alignment. Meaning as a member of the Dwarven Ancestry one of the things your culture strives to do is to "hunt the enemies of your people" the enemies could be a neighboring kingdom, the other Dwarven Clans that your family broke ties with or any of a thousand other things. Additionally you can have Edicts that are borderline xenophobic, but still not be racist. You can have preferences without thinking that members of other ancestries are lesser or deserve to die. Not only that but this is a Role Playing game, and allowing there to be conflict based on uncomfortable topics is not something we should try to prevent. It's something that can be present and each individual and individual group can decide what types of topics are brought up at the table.

The Pathfinder 1st Edition dwaves had the Hatred racial trait, "Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes because of their special training against these hated foes." Thus, we oldtimers who began with PF1 tend to assume that "enemies" means orcs and goblinoids. The lore of Varisia also has conflict between the dwarves and giants. This is not a flaw with the edict; instead, it is outdated baggage that we bring with us that taints the edict.

The Hatred is optional in PF2, from the Vengeful Hatred feat.

Kaelizar wrote:

The last point I have to make here is that all of the Edicts and anathema are optional and only PCs or NPCs that require them will even need to note it. Just as any PC or NPC can follow a deity, there's no real 'mechanical' difference between a Dwarf that follows Torag vs a Dwarf that follows Erastil, it's all thematic and can add to the character if that's something you want to do as a player or GM.

All that said, great work Paizo! These are fantastic and I can't wait to see the rest of the Remaster!

Two of the PCs in my campaign follow edicts and anathema: the druid Stormdancer and the champion Tikti.

Stormdancer is of the Storm Order and Animal Order and took Cleric Multiclass Dedication for the Green Faith. That gives her a single list of edicts (guide civilization to grow in harmony with nature, live sustainably and according to natural cycles, preserve areas of natural wilderness, protect the balance of nature, protect endangered species) and a triple list of anathemas (committing wanton cruelty to animals or killing animals unnecessarily, polluting the air or allowing those who cause major air pollution or climate shifts to go unpunished, cause damage to natural settings, kill animals for reasons other than self-defense or sustenance, remove an element or indigenous species from a natural area, encourage imbalance in nature, allow abuse of natural resources). Stormdancer had to deal with an area in the Fangwood forest burned out by the Ironfang Legion and with the region of the Fangwood blighted by Cyth-V’sug, the demon lord of disease, fungus, and parasites. Stormdancer regularly prepares Speak with Animals to find peaceful resolutions with hostile animals.

Tikti is a liberator champion following Grandmother Spider. Her edicts are be skilled and clever, think for yourself, take due payment for your work, humiliate the powerful. Her anathemas are abuse someone you have power over, harm someone who has given you sincere kindness, let a slight go unanswered, own a slave. Tikti is the party's magical crafter and transfers magical rune from looted martial weapons to the weapons that the two rogues can use (this won't be necessary after the remastering gives martial weapon proficiency to rogues). The party regularly humiliates the Ironfang Legion. And they are actively freeing the slaves of the legion.

And other times, the edicts and anathemas affect NPCs. The strangest case was Commander Repral of the Ironfang Legion.

Assault on Longshadow, M9. Overseer’s Quarters, page 37 wrote:
The camp’s hobgoblin leader, Sergeant Repral, works and sleeps in this cave, keeping careful notes and maps of the region’s terrain and wildlife. ... Repral, the [warbeast] camp’s overseer, grew up in the Darklands deep below Molthune. She has an unnatural kinship with strange and terrible beasts, forged in her long period of survival in a monstrous realm. Kosseruk found this kinship useful when she took the hobgoblin as a slave a decade ago. In the intervening decade, Repral has become one of the minotaur’s most trusted agents—despite her somewhat feral nature—and purchased her freedom, but the hobgoblin still wears her iron slave collar as a sign of deference and fear.

Repral in PF1 was a Neutral Evil hunter (druid/ranger hybrid) with a snake animal companion, a class which does not yet exist in PF2. Furthermore, the Ironfang Legion assigned her to train some captured humans as slaves, along with her duties to train warbeasts, and I decided that she did not like that chore and might sympathize with the party about freeing them. To make her more philosophical for the conversation with the party, I ported her as a cleric of Lamashtu, goddess of monsters.

I rewrote Repral's backstory. Her hobgoblin parents had fled into the Darklands after the hobgoblins were defeated in the Goblinblood Wars in Isger. They died, and Repral was raised by a Lamashtu-worshiping tribe of goblins, who expected Repral to grow big and strong to serve as a mighty warrior. She grew no faster than the goblins, despite her potential for greater size, so the other children bullied her. Lamashtu sent Repral a snake animal companion to protect her, and she has faithfully followed Lamashtu ever since, motivated mostly by a love of monsters. "Love monsters" is not among Lamashtu's edicts, but it comes close.

Repral was a stark contrast to the cultists of Lamashtu in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. Those cultists were angry people who wanted to hurt others, and Lamashtu offered them Chaotic Evil power. Repral cared about monsters rather than power. She agreed to free the human slaves to the party. After all, Lamashtu's edicts said, "bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden," and slaves are downtrodden.

That was a fun piece of roleplaying, inspired by edicts.


The Raven Black wrote:

We know that getting Unholy / Holy will be optional.

AFAIK we do not know if Edicts and Anathemas will be. Seeing them appear in Ancestries' descriptions makes me believe they will not be optional.

From page 1 of the comments, comment from Luis Loza, last sentence bolded by me for emphasis:

Luis Loza wrote:

The words "enemies" and "your people" are very broad on purpose here. These enemies could range from a dangerous, rival adventuring party to monsters from the Darklands to the agents of a sovereign state. Similarly your people might refer to your group of fellow adventurers or your family or all of the people of your hometown or nation. Dwarves typically create strong bonds with friends and family, becoming very protective of these people. Anyone who threatens these connections could be seen as an enemy of your people.

So, keeping that in mind, we want to make sure that players are understanding that this isn't meant to be read as "kill all orcs/goblins/whoever" or anything like that. Additionally, edicts are never mandatory. The beliefs for our ancestries are suggestions, so if you prefer not to adhere to them, that's fine. Ultimately, these are roleplaying guidance and suggestions.

Additionally, there was a stream before this blogpost for the initial remaster announcement where they said they were replacing Alignment with Edicts and Anathema, and I definitely remember them saying that it was an optional thing for classes that don't care about it, citing the iconic Rogue as not needing any. However I can't look for it right now.

Liberty's Edge

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Twiggies wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

We know that getting Unholy / Holy will be optional.

AFAIK we do not know if Edicts and Anathemas will be. Seeing them appear in Ancestries' descriptions makes me believe they will not be optional.

From page 1 of the comments, comment from Luis Loza, last sentence bolded by me for emphasis:

Luis Loza wrote:

The words "enemies" and "your people" are very broad on purpose here. These enemies could range from a dangerous, rival adventuring party to monsters from the Darklands to the agents of a sovereign state. Similarly your people might refer to your group of fellow adventurers or your family or all of the people of your hometown or nation. Dwarves typically create strong bonds with friends and family, becoming very protective of these people. Anyone who threatens these connections could be seen as an enemy of your people.

So, keeping that in mind, we want to make sure that players are understanding that this isn't meant to be read as "kill all orcs/goblins/whoever" or anything like that. Additionally, edicts are never mandatory. The beliefs for our ancestries are suggestions, so if you prefer not to adhere to them, that's fine. Ultimately, these are roleplaying guidance and suggestions.

Additionally, there was a stream before this blogpost for the initial remaster announcement where they said they were replacing Alignment with Edicts and Anathema, and I definitely remember them saying that it was an optional thing for classes that don't care about it, citing the iconic Rogue as not needing any. However I can't look for it right now.

I read the first point as Your own personal Edicts and Anathemas can be different from those of your ancestors. Just like the "typical alignment" text they replace.

The second one reminds me of something I too read, but I do not recall it being conclusively Edicts and Anathemas are optional. I read it like this at first, but it might have been just about Holy and Unholy.

I really fervently hope Edicts and Anathemas can be left blank by RAW in Remastered.


I laugh when I hear anathema outside of the context of religious faith. How Tridentine of Paizo!


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The word popular is pretty key here IMO; I would assume that "hunt the enemies of your people" is a common edict for dwarves that are bad people. A heroic dwarf likely does not give this cultural norm much credence, or may choose to interpret it in a way that suits them, but do so and you may run the risk of being outcast for defending an outsider. That's not an uncommon tale for a budding adventurer.

Yeah, I see this as, like, "Here are some examples of personal anathemas that some dwarves connected to aspects of their cultures might hold." It's more a suggestion to prompt you than anything, not a species-wide code, or even necessarily a taboo that could get you shunned.

I don't mind there being flavor-only anathemas. I think it's fun, and I like how it integrates everyone's beliefs under the same umbrella--it makes it clear that anyone can have strongly-held beliefs and rules and codes of conduct, even if they don't have a deity holding a gun to their head. Anathemas are a great roleplaying prompt, and I'm already having fun with them with new characters.

I wouldn't have a problem with the name being changed, but "Taboo" wouldn't make a lot of sense. Optional anathemas aren't exclusively ancestry-based, after all.

Personal taboos exist too.


Well, not conventionally. The most common definition (and thus the meaning most people will associate with the word) calls it a "social or religious" prohibition, not a personal one.

Oxford Languages wrote:
a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing.

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