Strength of Thousands Adventure Path

I mean it's our game and we can do what we want to. I will not be shamed out of making magic resistant students or a training academy for martial bodyguards for the squishy magic users. It's not hard to come up with a lot of ways more mundane characters could be introduced.

I don't think you are being shamed. Take an AP and make it work for your table is fine and dandy. Being disappointing that the devs didn't do that extra work to make it work for your table (or in this case they did just not the way one wants) is less so is all.

The idea that every bit of published content must work for all groups just leads to waterey content IMO.

Thanks, Evilgm.

Ravingdork wrote:

What are you talking about? I'm running Extinction Curse, have been for months, and I've never seen anything of the sort.

I don’t want to come off as mocking, but I’m genuinely gobsmacked by this. They are the macguffins that the entire AP revolves around, driving you forward after book 2.

I'm still running book 1 and haven't read the others yet. The player characters are just about to head into the...

So I haven't really had the chance to read anything past page 30 or so.

MAGIC SCHOOL! MAGIC SCHOOL! MAGIC SCHOOL!

...Ahem, I'm a tad excited by this news.

So in the live stream it was mentioned that there would be options for non-casters to have some casting they can take. Which really sounded like John Smedley and Star Wars Galaxies when he said that if you didn't want to be a Jedi you could always just be force sensitive - AKA a Jedi. This was horribly unsatisfying for those who really didn't want to be a Jedi.

This really made me a sad panda when I heard it. So I wanted to come talk about Legend of the Five Rings and the Yojimbo. Specifically the Yojimbo of the Phoenix Clan who were bodyguards for the Shugenja. They studied in the same schools together but the Yojimbo never learned spells. They learned to protect their Shugenja, to increase the spells cast upon them by their allies and resist those cast by their enemies. Yojimbo were always melee artist, without any casting ability. But they learned at magic schools with the casters.

That is all.

TBH and without meaning any bad, I think these abilities are best represented through focus spells. So still casters in PF2 though not Shugenja in L5R.

And certainly teachers with a strong grasp of martial abilities will bring value to the university. Indeed I look forward to the Maagambyan Magus. Good thing Secrets of Magic will be out then.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

The AP is a cool enough concept by itself but I think I'm most excited about the homebrew-ish system for giving martial classes a bit of magic to be appropriate for the campaign. It sets a precedent I'm very excited to potentially see in other settings such as, for example, the Mana Wastes...

I believe they've specified it's 'just' the Free Archetype variant with a spellcasting archetype. Still seems fine to me.

Ahh, that makes sense. Still it sets a precedent for using non-standard rules to fit the setting of an official campaign.

On a related note, I've felt for a bit that when we eventually head into Galt, bolting on the Vigilante archetype to every character would be highly appropriate. Even for those that want to operate openly, a archetype that gives similar abilities but is themed to give you separate reputations to manage instead of fully separate identities might work for them and wouldn't be too much extra effort (I homebrewed a similar archetype for the PF1 vigilante, so naturally I think it is a great idea).

I can imagine an entire downtime system evolving out of managing your social identities/reputations and safehouses.

I get what you mean but this is a preexisting magic school in the setting with a curriculum that's already been spelled out in setting material. I doubt it would have been satisfactory to retcon the nature of Magaambyan teaching to be inclusive to martials.

Even as someone who almost always plays martials, I think it's okay to have an AP where some classes aren't appropriate for the setting (Paladins weren't appropriate for Hell's Vengeance, for example). I'm just waiting for the Mana Wastes AP that bans casters now. :)

I am fully on board for this.

Arachnofiend wrote:

I get what you mean but this is a preexisting magic school in the setting with a curriculum that's already been spelled out in setting material. I doubt it would have been satisfactory to retcon the nature of Magaambyan teaching to be inclusive to martials.

Even as someone who almost always plays martials, I think it's okay to have an AP where some classes aren't appropriate for the setting (Paladins weren't appropriate for Hell's Vengeance, for example). I'm just waiting for the Mana Wastes AP that bans casters now. :)

I am fully on board for this.

I'm curious where and how much this have actually been spelled out. I don't have a lot of the old source material on the Magaambya, so I could easily be missing something, but the impression I'd gotten was that it was at least heavily focused on teaching arcane magic, not just casting in general. It seems like it's already something of a retcon to have it be "anyone with any casting ability", even just a couple focus spells or something from an archetype. Which is fine, but makes me wonder why the resistance to the last step.

I also seem to remember seeing something recently about a role for non-casters on the faculty, but I can't find it again, so I may have made it up. :)

I believe the thing with the Magaambya is that Jatembe, their founder, was the person responsible for the discovery of the four magical essences, and the university he founded is devoted to exploring the nature of magic in all of its forms. They've just had the most success with material essence (which unites primal and arcane).

I also seem to remember seeing something recently about a role for non-casters on the faculty, but I can't find it again, so I may have made it up. :)

Here y’go!

They're nerds, so they're best at nerd magic, but many of them are also drama kids or nature geeks or idol stans so they have access to those magics too. It's a little weird to outsiders, but they don't want to stay within society's constructed roles. I believe that there's a song about this philosophy in the ancient Mwangi song-story "High School Musical".

...What, you think it's a coincidence that half the Magaambyan art features a song and dance? This entire AP is going to be a musical, mark my words.

Another theory about the "layered on casting." Instead of generic or multiclass free archetypes, what if the free archetype that all of the PCs got was the Magaambyan Initiate Archetype (and subsequently, and other archetypes that built off of it)?

I imagine if there was any good place to add more feats to that archetype, it would be in the Adventure Path that was all about the Magaambya.

Another theory about the "layered on casting." Instead of generic or multiclass free archetypes, what if the free archetype that all of the PCs got was the Magaambyan Initiate Archetype (and subsequently, and other archetypes that built off of it)?

I imagine if there was any good place to add more feats to that archetype, it would be in the Adventure Path that was all about the Magaambya.

That's my general assumption, yeah, though I wouldn't be super surprised if everyone had a little more magic from level one. Certainly, I'm sure there'll be more meat to the archetypes (which I already love, predictably), and I suspect that there'll be a proper subsystem for advancement through the academy.

thejeff wrote:

I also seem to remember seeing something recently about a role for non-casters on the faculty, but I can't find it again, so I may have made it up. :)

Here y’go!

I mean, it 100% makes sense that the Magaambya in an attempt to be a force for good, will have their students study philosophy, rhetoric, history, etc. things which "the ability to cast spells" are at best tangential to.

It's better to teach people how to avoid situations in which they need to throw fireballs than to teach them how to throw fireballs really well.

thejeff wrote:

I also seem to remember seeing something recently about a role for non-casters on the faculty, but I can't find it again, so I may have made it up. :)

Here y’go!

Thank you. I knew I'd seen it, but somehow I'd thought it was in PF1 lore.

So, isn't that pretty explicit about there being a place for non-casters in the Magaambya?

So, isn't that pretty explicit about there being a place for non-casters in the Magaambya?

Absolutely! When I was chewing on what to add to the Magaambyan canon for Lost Omens Character Guide, I figured an organization doesn't get to stick around relatively unscathed for 8,000 years without it being a pretty powerful force for good that no one really has an interest in disrupting (I mean obviously it's TTRPG world so there's some big villains and Spawn of Rovagug and what have you, but still).

To me that meant diplomacy, community, and a comprehensive look at what it takes to build all that. Even at the school itself there's folks preparing food, cleaning, managing trade, etc etc. The Magaambya's existence is a community effort, just like less magically-inclined population centers.

And sure, the Magaambya is maybe at the forefront of advancing magical research (gotta keep those Cascade Bearers busy), but it's just as important to them that their magic get used for something positive. I tried to illustrate that priority in the Jatembe short story in Lost Omens Legends, too.

Point being that a key part of Magaambyan life is realizing basically everybody has value, and that anyone who plans to use knowledge to better others' lives deserves a shot.

Standard disclaimer: Only what's in print is canon, and there may be some muddling of what my thought process was when writing the sections in question vs. what actually made it to print!

Thanks, Evilgm.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

What are you talking about? I'm running Extinction Curse, have been for months, and I've never seen anything of the sort.

I don’t want to come off as mocking, but I’m genuinely gobsmacked by this. They are the macguffins that the entire AP revolves around, driving you forward after book 2.

I'm still running book 1 and haven't read the others yet. The player characters are just about to head into the...

** spoiler omitted **

So I haven't really had the chance to read anything past page 30 or so.

Then you're almost there. It's right

GM Stargin wrote:

I'd say it might be a good idea to create a homebrew 'magic resistant' archetype somewhat like the superstitious barbarian and have there be an adjunct martial academy teaching these techniques that shares facilities with the magaambya that pure martial pcs can be a part of.

The initial dedication would be the entrance exam students of the academy have to pass. There can be a friendly rivalry between the two 'colleges'.

It seems to me that would be more of a canon retcon than just having it be part of the Magaambya itself, and likely easier to work into the AP, since martial characters taking that archetype instead of the "I get some spells" one could become teachers within the Magaambya and thus still be treated like any other PCs.

Doesn't have to be a Retcon:

"For some time, the world has been teaching us about potential weaknesses in our curriculum, and not just in the most obvious places like the Mana Wastes. As a result, we have decided to expand our curriculum. Starting this year, we will be consolidating our scattered courses on nonmagical matters into a new department, the curriculum of which will be introduced tomorrow at the grand opening of the newly-completed Spellbreaker Hall."

So, this is where Roy's grandpa learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver?

Makes a lot of sense actually :-D

I now want to create Horace Greenhilt for this AP.

So, this is where Roy's grandpa learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver?

Makes a lot of sense actually :-D

I now want to create Horace Greenhilt for this AP.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see as martial options - things that interact with magic, but aren't actually casting spells.

The Raven Black wrote:

So, this is where Roy's grandpa learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver?

Makes a lot of sense actually :-D

I now want to create Horace Greenhilt for this AP.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see as martial options - things that interact with magic, but aren't actually casting spells.

I'd absolutely love to see more of that style of thing come in throughout the AP. Martial-oriented characters should definitely be supported, though I'm still totally onboard with everyone getting a touch of extra magic just by dint of having studied at a (primarily) magical college. The party aren't going to stay Attendants and Conversants, by the sounds of things, and I'm guessing that there'll be many, many new fun magic toys to play with that maybe wouldn't work as well if the initial assumption didn't involve a little bit for everyone.

Of course, that's up for every GM to GM as they please; I just like that it's a core idea of the campaign.

(Also, if anyone was in any doubt, Spellsplinter itself is already pretty well-represented by the way Attacks of Opportunity work in this edition. Of course, the Fighter's Disruptive Stance class feat is probably the best at acting like the feat we see Roy use, though it working on a bunch of other concentrate/manipulate actions is very cool.)

I'm curious where and how much this have actually been spelled out. I don't have a lot of the old source material on the Magaambya, so I could easily be missing something, but the impression I'd gotten was that it was at least heavily focused on teaching arcane magic, not just casting in general. It seems like it's already something of a retcon to have it be "anyone with any casting ability", even just a couple focus spells or something from an archetype. Which is fine, but makes me wonder why the resistance to the last step.

I also seem to remember seeing something recently about a role for non-casters on the faculty, but I can't find it again, so I may have made it up. :)

It seems to have always been a bit druid/wizard oriented, so I would expect at least those two, if not necessarily cleric/occult types, but 2e seems to have broadened it to all of the magic types. (And even back in the day, it seemed connected to the Empyreal Lords as well, so cleric/druid/wizard might have been already baked in, thematically, just not mentioned as much, as they haven't, that I recall, gone into *which* Empyreal Lords, specifically, are a big deal in the region...)

A group of non-casters who serve like the 'Warders' to the casters 'Aes Sedai' (or the Scarred Land's Unfailing bodyguards to the wizards of Hollowfaust) would be neat, although I could see it being an issue where a player might not want to play 'some other player's character's bodyguard' like some sort of Ars Magica game where you can play the wizards, or the nameless gumbies that tromp along with them, carrying their gear... :)

I may have missed it, but do we know what level this AP goes up too?

I may have missed it, but do we know what level this AP goes up too?

All 2E APs go all the way to L20.

Gray wrote:

I may have missed it, but do we know what level this AP goes up too?

All 2E APs go all the way to L20.

Not strictly true, since the 2 three volume ones don't cover the whole span, but the normal length ones do. At least so far.

Themetricsystem wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The Magaambya is more akin to a college than an elementary school. The PCs are expected to be adults as this Adventure Path begins.

That's good to hear as it helps avoid undesirable story elements and pushes it aside from some of the more popular "magic school" fiction that springs to mind.

Thanks JJ!

Magic school stories are undeniably popular, which is one of the reasons we're doing this Adventure Path, but Harry Potter is not a primary source of inspiration for it, and it's not going to be pushed by us as the "Harry Potter" Adventure Path. Because it's not. It's a very different story.

That's right! It's the TAZ:Graduation AP.

You can get to level 20 while being ABD, but you're going to at least have your master's degree by then.

When SyFy adapted Lev Grossman's "The Magicians" making the students older, and making the magical academy more like graduate school greatly improved upon the source material.

Just thought I'd point out a minor thing. The "Download the Player's Guide" button on the main page for Strength of Thousands seems to point to the "Horizons of the Vast" Player's Guide.

I see that the adventure works around arcana and nature traditions ( as FA ), but I don't really get why it is explicitly required to take the wizard or druid dedication.

I mean, why not sticking with the tradition instead in order to widen the multiclass possibilities?

For example, in addition to wizard and druid we could have had:

- Sorcerers
- Witches

eventually

- Scroll Tricksters ( only primal and arcane scrolls ), for classes who don't really want to be "magical".

Is it something lore/continent related?
-

I see that the adventure works around arcana and nature traditions ( as FA ), but I don't really get why it is explicitly required to take the wizard or druid dedication.

I mean, why not sticking with the tradition instead in order to widen the multiclass possibilities?

For example, in addition to wizard and druid we could have had:

- Sorcerers
- Witches

eventually

- Scroll Tricksters ( only primal and arcane scrolls ), for classes who don't really want to be "magical".

Is it something lore/continent related?
-

I see 2 reasons.

1) the lore of the land puts specific emphasis on Wizards and Druids as well as the history of the school

2) it is a SCHOOL. Wizards and Druids are traditionally taught their magic. Sorcerers instinctively manifest their magic and Witches have powerful magic thrust upon them by their patron. As such neither Sorceror nor Witch particularly fit into a magic academy.

As such neither Sorceror nor Witch particularly fit into a magic academy.

Witches are taught their magic at the whims of strange and unknowable entities of a mysterious nature. That sounds like most college professors I've had.

I'd like to point out that the free archetype isn't solely a result of the teaching at the Magaambya, it's because the players are among the best and the brightest and qualify for acceptance to the prestigious academy. The direct result teaching at the Magaambya is more about the different branch tracks and what you get out of them.

A wizard who spends his free time in the gym should be able to fit right in with a fighter who starts learning arcane magic.

The reasons given for those two archetypes are:

1. Ensures you have Arcana or Nature
2. Lets them customize some high level dedication feats that you can get from the adventure for those two classes specifically

I don't personally intend to force my players to go down that route, but I will let them know they might miss out on some neat things. I will however require them to be able to do some level of prepared Arcane or Primal casting, as well as having the associated skill at least trained.

Before reading chapter one, I was contemplating making a couple of changes to the free archetype rules used -- either extending it to any prepared arcane/primal caster -- puling in witch (and maybe magus/summoner depending on their final forms). or a more 'completely different flavor campaign' option of 'everyone must be either summoner or MC summoners or have a familiar' if I thought the story could be fun for a 'keep the magical pets out of trouble' style story.

Now that I've read book 1, I'm not feeling the second option (which I was more excited about) fits the story without more rework than I think I want. And I agree with the comment up thread that the default presentation of a Witch doesn't fit the academic nature, however I'm still leaning a bit towards the 'any prepared arcane/primal' as either primary class or MC.

I'm probably going to wait until SoM comes out and book 2 to make a final determination of how I want to run it-- I know my local lodge will probably have at least 3 GMs offering it, so there's some incentive to customize it a bit and offer variety to our players

Another point worth mentioning I forgot to add concerns the limits of taking a druid dedication.

Which means that if your character intend to wear steel armor or even just a shield for shield block purposes, then the only possible choice would be taking the wizard school.

I'd probably tweek something too, though I'd obviously stick with nature/arcane classes.

Bonus question: since it's their first adventure explicitly meant for the FA variant rule, did they also manage to address either ancient elf and arcane trickster?

There was more than a debate back then because of taking that combination, but taking one of them + a "dedication" Because of the FA is no different at all.