Character Options for Pathfinder Society and Guide Updates

I'm under impression from paizocon and gencon streams and devs chatting in discord that they are more of planning for scenarios to unlock 0 acp cost boons on website, but I have no how that is gonna work if that is their plan.

With out a boon on the chronicle sheet telling you that, how are you supposed to know?

Are we expected to keep the AcP Boon page on constant refresh so we can find out?

~

Given that SFS has yet to have a season that did not open up a couple of ne races through scenario boons... we are about to see the beginning of less race access in SFS... the death of the 'Cantina feel' style that was a stated goal for SFS...

Maybe just check it every so often to see what has become available. Maybe when new options become available in the ACP you will be notified by email. Maybe there will be an instruction in the Scenario text that will tell the GM to inform the players that a boon will become available when the scenario is reported. Maybe they will mention it in a Blog post... Lots of ways this info could be delivered.

And given Thursty's public announcement that the new version of the guide will include a bunch of new always available races, it seems like maybe that the Cantina feel is safe...

Yeah they are adding bunch of races to be always available. Should mean that certain pact world races don't avoid society for some reason :p

But yeah, either way even if they plan to add boons to the website from chronicles, until they actually have acp system for starfinder society the scenarios are essentially going to be boonless until then.

I've been playing PFS 2E since it came out, and 1E for about 3 years before that. Tracking which chronicle boons I had on which character was a huge pain, especially for 2E, and I'm glad Chronicle boons are gone.

It's better that boons in general get moved to AcP. This solves the problem of people receiving rewards that they didn't expect and and might not want.I remember receiving a wonderful chronicle boon that would have been perfect on a different PC than the one I played.

But that’s what the Bequeathal boon is for now, so that when you get an option on a different character, you can give it to the one who would benefit. And I’m not sure how that goes away as an issue, unless playing the scenario unlocks purchasing the 0 AcP boon for any of your characters and not just the one who played the scenario.

Also, am I remembering correctly that saving paper was part of the reason given? Because I’m not sure how having half of the chronicle be blank space and downloading an entirely separate boon chronicle to then have to print is saving paper.

I do think this partly has to do with development resources, and I think that was partly behind simplifying quests into bounties (though I didn’t have a chance to play Whitefang at GenCon to see if the bounties actually are simpler or faster). If that’s the case, I can understand why changes need to be made. But I’ll definitely miss chronicle boons.

Is item access still going to be on chronicles? Neither of the season 2 chronicles I got had any items, either. Which is almost more disappointing, given the rarity and level system.

When I learned that convention boons were moving to the AcP system, opening up access to these for players all over the world (regardless of whether or not they could make it to conventions / whether or not they were actively GMing in our communities), I was extremely happy, and would not shut up about how awesome the AcP system was going to be to my local VOs and GMs.

Learning that boons earned on chronicle sheets that tie-in directly to adventures-played are going away as a by-product of this? I am extremely saddened by the same measure, if not more.

It's not even about "rewards" or power level for characters (check my records - I GM hundreds of games more than I play), but rather that neat feeling to reveal to players that the things they did in an adventure had a tangible effect.

Yes, I know that many scenarios have reporting conditions that contribute to our living campaigns - at least two "just trying it out" players at my Gen Con tables signed up for OPF numbers on the spot after learning that I was recording their group's decisions and they could have implications for the society as a whole - but the chronicle sheet boons have always been a neat way for players to reconnect to adventures they've had.

I know I don't really get a vote, but I am decidedly not in favor of them being discontinued.

Killing of the chronicle boons IMO will hurt more than help. A lot of players enjoy getting boons the add flavor or options to their characters.

One of my favorite boons I received, added a third ear to my ratfolk in the middle of his forehead. It may not have added any mechanical benefit. It did add flavor to my character. The boon could be cured with a remove disease or curse, not sure which one, if you wanted to.

If chronicles are going to be something that just track adventures, gold and what not. Might as well just move to a single sheet that tracks multiple adventures.

I loved that one too! It allowed my Swashbuckler got to have six fingers on his right hand!

I loved that one too! It allowed my Swashbuckler got to have six fingers on his right hand!

Someone was looking for you.

I know its not a vote, but I cannot tell you how disappointing it is to have completed a great scenario and seeing a mostly blank page. It was a shock to say the least, a VERY unpleasant shock. I have no problem with the ACP system now that it is up and working, but the loss of chronicle boons is a profound one at least for me!

Zachary Davis wrote:

Killing of the chronicle boons IMO will hurt more than help. A lot of players enjoy getting boons the add flavor or options to their characters.

One of my favorite boons I received, added a third ear to my ratfolk in the middle of his forehead. It may not have added any mechanical benefit. It did add flavor to my character. The boon could be cured with a remove disease or curse, not sure which one, if you wanted to.

If chronicles are going to be something that just track adventures, gold and what not. Might as well just move to a single sheet that tracks multiple adventures.

I loved that one too! It allowed my Swashbuckler got to have six fingers on his right hand!

See, this here is the kind of thing that should stick around, if nothing else. There's a 1e chronicle that, as a result of, I have super bouncy ball holy symbol on one character.

Marc Waschle wrote:

Zachary Davis wrote:

Killing of the chronicle boons IMO will hurt more than help. A lot of players enjoy getting boons the add flavor or options to their characters.

One of my favorite boons I received, added a third ear to my ratfolk in the middle of his forehead. It may not have added any mechanical benefit. It did add flavor to my character. The boon could be cured with a remove disease or curse, not sure which one, if you wanted to.

If chronicles are going to be something that just track adventures, gold and what not. Might as well just move to a single sheet that tracks multiple adventures.

I loved that one too! It allowed my Swashbuckler got to have six fingers on his right hand!

See, this here is the kind of thing that should stick around, if nothing else. There's a 1e chronicle that, as a result of, I have super bouncy ball holy symbol on one character.

That adventure is so fun!! I GM it and the player put their codd piece in. Of course, now it cries if it gets too far away!!

Well, years back leadership seriously toyed with the idea of eliminating convention specials due to their huge investment both in development and implementation, not to mention the difficulty in producing a product that appealed to nearly the entire audience, but our outcry being both loud and universally opposed to it saved the concept. And now the specials have become a key component of the narrative.

Perhaps equally boisterous and consistent feedback expressing our wanting the chronicle boons to continue will be enough for the PtB to change their mind and restore this reward system.

Heads up that Thurston confirmed in another thread the 0 acp boons from chronicles. Main difference will be mostly that they won't be scraping the barrel to come up with random boon just because they are expected and "character remembers you helping them" boons are just rolled in with "You have chronicle, this effect comes to play" stuff.

Also, wait, specials are that popular? Didn't actually realize that.

I mean, in recent years the specials have actually been good, but I never really had fun playing the PF1e specials, they just went too chaotic, like you were in constant hurry and it was hard to feel like at lower levels that your individual table's contribution mattered much. 1e specials also never really felt narratively satisfying, it was like "Okay, now x group attacks Grand Lodge" and if you missed convention with the special, then you had no idea what happened(for example, in one of them apparently Aram Zey did something, but what I still have no clue what :p) and even then fast pace of scenario meant you never really had time to dwell on what just happened.

That said, it was definitely fun hearing the other tables yell about stuff, so I guess I can see why they are popular. But yeah I'm glad that SFS specials so far have actually been really fun to me so far, looking forward to playing or running 2e specials too.

Fun story from an interactive, contains spoilers for Siege of the Diamond City.

That IS one of the multiple table(to clarify, I do have had great time so far with all single table ones I've played) specials I've never played xD (also one issue I have with specials: They are never referred in normal scenarios to avoid spoiling them, so if you miss them you really never find out how previous season's plot ended except maybe for plot hooks they follow up)

Had to check which 1e multi table ones I've played or run: Year of the shadow lodge, Legacy of the Stonelords, Cosmic Captive and both played and run Sky Key solution. Edit: Oh yeah and siege of serpents too.

But yeah, I think on all of those tables I was playing low tiers or relatively low tiers so that might be part of my experience yeah. Like in one table you hear party about to be facing the big bad villain while in our table we are fighting endless wave of mooks to grind points to weaken the villain.

Scoured Star Invasion and Fate of the Scoured Star seemed much more memorable and interesting to me in comparison though I did gm both :3 I think they had lot of memorable plot moments and twists in them

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Marc Waschle wrote:

Zachary Davis wrote:

Killing of the chronicle boons IMO will hurt more than help. A lot of players enjoy getting boons the add flavor or options to their characters.

One of my favorite boons I received, added a third ear to my ratfolk in the middle of his forehead. It may not have added any mechanical benefit. It did add flavor to my character. The boon could be cured with a remove disease or curse, not sure which one, if you wanted to.

If chronicles are going to be something that just track adventures, gold and what not. Might as well just move to a single sheet that tracks multiple adventures.

I loved that one too! It allowed my Swashbuckler got to have six fingers on his right hand!

See, this here is the kind of thing that should stick around, if nothing else. There's a 1e chronicle that, as a result of, I have super bouncy ball holy symbol on one character.

That adventure is so fun!! I GM it and the player put their codd piece in. Of course, now it cries if it gets too far away!!

Without this adventure, I would not have my singing fez! Without my singing fez, I am not the same Neville, no?!

Fun story from an interactive, contains spoilers for Siege of the Diamond City.

** spoiler omitted **...

and that's the kind of thing i was talking about a while ago in this posts comments. it's not the boons that matter, its the actual story. everything in this story that kept the players desperate and thinking and trying to figure out what to do, and then their reaction to the low tier player and how "ecstatic" everyone was as you said, are the important part that people should be paying attention to. not the silly useless boons on chronicles that just end up getting hoarded "because i might need this someday!" and then never actually used and frequently forgotten. While all the players at those 2 tables may remember this, nobody else really will, and they may not care too much (and some may even doubt such an incredibly unlikely story)

in 2e, my wizard has, on 3 occasions, saved the team from the threat of tpk with an AMAZINGLY lucky gust of wind after the bad guys got a lot of lucky crits and our team getting a lot of unlucky bad rolls. Was a tpk guaranteed? not guaranteed. did we all think it was going to happen? certainly thought so. was this amazing situation that got me "player of the game" (little fun locale thing explained below) recorded on the chronicle? no because it's "not a boon and therefore not important" is how a lot of people in these comments are coming across as. Again, most of these chronicle boons just end up getting lost, or more likely entirely forgotten, and a lot of them are only cute for 6 seconds (hahaha) with a chance of failing to do anything (if they ever actually did anything to begin with). (certain scenario and i cant figure out how to make a spoiler thing) giving my dad a floating dull aeon stone via a lottery system that he glued googly eyes on and called it his Oread characters grandma and gave my cleric a permanently bubbling scarf. both fun yes, really fun, but also ENTIRELY forgotten and ignored 95% of the time and mechanically useless 100% of the time

the story is infinitely more important than a boon that you dont know youre getting and often doesnt work with the character you got it on. in 2e i almost got a firework bomb formula via chronicle on my ranger instead of my alchemist (ended up playing on my alchemist after thinking about it) and it's not a repeatable. sure i could use a boon with a cost to transfer it, but that still has a cost "and i might need those points someday when i need them most!" (and the boon is actually kinda lackluster anyway. most people would call it useless for an alchemist because it does considerably lower damage)

youll almost always get more joy out of the story about your (example, but my true story) bounty hunter ranger who finds a bolas during a situation, ends up fighting a certain creature, creature fails a certain check and you are now recreating the infamous lion king cliff scene, and then that ranger hits that creature with the bolas and trips them off the ledge, jokingly using an intimidate action as it falls to say "long live the king". You couldnt possibly convince me that being the creator pc and narrator of this story is less important than getting a "special", extremely situational, one time use only, not guaranteed to actually work, in general average boon. (because this is how a lot of 1e boons were. so many.)

It's stories like that that players treasure more than just about any boon that would show up on a chronicle because you can share that story with people who know NOTHING about pathfinder whatsoever with minimal effort to convert it to a way theyd understand, but the boons you could get on chronicles dont give you the same opportunity or satisfaction. The stories you get from playing are the gifts that keep on giving. The boons are not.

(explanation for player of the game. at our local area, the person who did the most amazing thing in a scenario, agreed on by a majority vote of the table, gets 3 dollars store credit with a little hand made wooden token made by a guys wife for the location (the store credit was not the token creators idea, the store came up with this for pathfinder society players as a thanks for always coming to the store to do it instead of elsewhere, the lady did this just cuz a hobby), one to each table, every sunday)

(sorry for the rambling, dont take offense anyone, im not mad or anything, maybe a little excited because i can use true stories as examples, and because generally my entire state,including heavy congoers who would gm most/all the slots to get those sweet boons, agrees that acp is better. most people here that went to the big cons specifically to try to get boons, like a leshy boon or a catfolk boon, or any boon really because literally everyone knew that gming at cons were the ONLY way to get fancy boons and everyone else was just SOL, would passively be planning on it literally all year long to make sure they had the time off from work, the money saved up, and the plans made to have transportation and lodging at the usually out of state cons (gencon and origins mostly as those are the biggest nearby pathfinder involved cons)

The problem I see with chronicles not having anything on them is it makes the Bequeathal boon useless.

True, but we don't put boons on chronicles to justify the Bequeathal boon, vice versa.

I suspect, without proof, that even without items on the bulk of chronicles, we'll still see a few, especially on Sanctioned Adventures/Adventure Paths that will still make good use of bequeathal. And even if we don't they can just retire that boon as unneeded.

Bequeathal can still exist. Season 1 adventures with boons on chronicles will still be playable, right?

True, but we don't put boons on chronicles to justify the Bequeathal boon, vice versa.

I see this as a direct connection.

Maybe I am using the wrong term. Instead of boon, I should have said items. Because that is what Bequeathal works on is items.

I believe there is a different faction boon that allows a character to give access to something granted as a boon to a different character.

Leaving aside the "why" things are dropping off the chronicle for a moment. The thing that really gets me is how empty the sheet looks.

The sheet will have some header information, a brief adventure summary, some info on the right edge and then on the bottom of the page. Rough estimate, the page now has about 40% dead space. That seems off putting to me.

I'd like to suggest doing something with that space. Some thoughts:

- map and/or description of where the adventure took place. Dedicated players know Golarion. But new players typically don't know the map or the world. This might help connecting them to the campaign.

- picture and/or description of the VC who assigned the mission or a key NPC. Again, reinforce connection to the campaign. New players typically don't pick up on who's who.

- add one of the images from the scenario. The latest scenarios do a great job of adding visuals for GMs to use. Pick a key one and show it on the chronicle.

These would add to and reinforce your memory of the scenario you played and maybe return a little bit of the cool factor to getting your chronicle.

Please don't put maps or images on the chronicle sheets. That's extra ink being used.

What might be nice for people other than me (or maybe just me) is if they used that blank space to grant you knowledge learned through the course of the scenario. I know that in PFS, you characters don't remember their knowledge rolls from prior scenarios, and I am fine for that reasonable rule to continue. However, I do chafe a little trying to portray intelligent characters who can't remember anything except by luck of the dice in that moment.

It could be as simple as printing the Success reveals for mission briefing Recall Knowledge checks, and allowing you to know that information as persistent knowledge.

It could be a little more to the practical side and be a list of rulers and cultural details of places you've been, so if you've been there before, you don't need another Society check to know that Isger is a vassal state of Cheliax and ruled by a steward. Or that speaking ill of Razmir in Razmiran results in death by burning.

It could be strategically helpful, such as if the characters encounter a green dragon as an adversary in the scenario, then they know that green dragons are resistant to acid henceforth.

Just a thought.

I like what the PFS2 sheets have, with the short summaries at the top of the mission. Helps refresh people's memories of what they have done before.

I like what the PFS2 sheets have, with the short summaries at the top of the mission. Helps refresh people's memories of what they have done before.

I don’t think anyone is saying to stop printing the summaries. There is now a large portion of the chronicle that doesn’t contain any information, because it’s where the boons and items used to go. The suggestions are for how to fill that space.

As much as I like the flavor of having maps and such, I don’t want to have to print multiple copies of them. I run through enough toner as is. Having a record of creatures encountered or something like that could be useful, but if recording the items found in a scenario is more work than can be done currently, I would assume recording the creatures would also be more work than can be done right now. Given a choice between the two, I’d much rather have item access.

Just played 3-03, and other than including an ink-intensive color picture of the boss, I enjoyed the layout.

I second Blake's Tiger's suggestion of being able to take your Recall Knowledge from scenario to scenario.

It's part of your report (even if you personally didn't identify the creature), and you should be the one to recall how difficult it was.

A point that I didn't make clear: my suggestion would be for the design team to choose what Recall Knowledge is retained on the chronicle.

Just played 3-03, and other than including an ink-intensive color picture of the boss, I enjoyed the layout.

I second Blake's Tiger's suggestion of being able to take your Recall Knowledge from scenario to scenario.

It's part of your report (even if you personally didn't identify the creature), and you should be the one to recall how difficult it was.

Check out the skill feat through reports

Nefreet wrote:

Just played 3-03, and other than including an ink-intensive color picture of the boss, I enjoyed the layout.

I second Blake's Tiger's suggestion of being able to take your Recall Knowledge from scenario to scenario.

It's part of your report (even if you personally didn't identify the creature), and you should be the one to recall how difficult it was.

Check out the skill feat through reports

You mean the Archetype feat Thorough Reports, which requires you to take the Pathfinder Agent.

It also only applies to creatures and gives you a +2 to Recall Knowledge on a creature you've encountered before as well as one additional detail.

That's nice, don't get me wrong, but if I, solely for the sake of example, travel to Nantambu, I'd like to just know the second time that the city is guarded by Tempest-Sun mages without requiring a Society check again (or without needing to devote class resources on some hypothetical future archetype that lets you remember places, laws, customs, etc. instead of just creatures). I mean, we are explorers and archaeologists, learning is what we're supposed to be doing.

But again, it's just a thought and the status quo is fine, but it would be a nice replacement for boons that doesn't require additional development beyond hand-picking select Recall Knowledge check results from within the scenario.

i would like to think being allowed to write down some things you did during a scenario and have the GM sign the little stories as real occurrences that may give you different benefits during future scenarios up to GM would be nice

like in certain scenario, an npc asks you • “Explorers and adventurers like to talk about their great achievements, I find. But not so often
do they tell tales of their mistakes. Will you share with me a time you failed?”

and it would be awesome if we could write things like this down, whether good or bad, and be allowed to reference them for future benefit, with the limitation that we dont write down anything that really requires a certain difficulty of skill check, and that the benefit may not actually be much of a benefit. maybe just a little intriguing conversation during mission prep or something, idk im not really a story writer or developer

I've taken to recording what creatures we encountered and what knowledge we learned about their stats (weaknesses, resistances, etc) in hopes that future GMs will allow it. Expecting table variation

There is a 1e boon that does this.

Maybe they could add a factionless boon that can be purchased for a specific creature or class of creature that would make this more standard. Allow the boon to be purchased after the adventure but than slotted to get a +1 for trained, +2 for expert, +3 for master, and auto for legendary.

Tier 1, 2 fame.

There's a Vigilant Seal boon that does something similar to that.

I would much rather have place/custom/history knowledge retained (e.g. not having to re-remember the Six Freedoms every time you go to the River Kingdoms).

I would truly just as soon not bother with chronicles if there's not going to be anything of interest on them.

We're all adults, we can keep our own records.

We're all adults, we can keep our own records.

The first part of that sentence is actually not true.

Douglas Edwards wrote:

We're all adults, we can keep our own records.

The first part of that sentence is actually not true.

And the second part has been historically proven to be dubious in certain circumstances, as well.

Facts.

The boons aren't going away. But they are changing format. Having to write a boon per scenario is a cognitive/creative load. Especially in the world of P2, where a +1 makes a big difference to the math. Putting something meaningful into a future scenario regarding each boon is another cognitive/creative load. We're looking for the balance point, where a boon makes sense to the mission and we have ideas on where we can follow up on it.

We've also got a modular system of boon granting now. Not just by putting things on a chart and asking players to play AcP. There are many more widgets and toggles at our disposal. Like tying boons to scenarios played, faction reputation achieved, or the number of games you've GMed. AcP is just one part of the "Points Pool System" we created.

To leverage the system we built, encourage reporting (I can't ask for more resources if we aren't showing why we need them) and move away from paper (a goal I expressed several years ago), we are moving the boons online. This has an impact on chronicle sheets, yes. So does holding most of our events in digital space for the past 6 months.

Which means changes to the chronicle sheets. The team is discussing that in upcoming meetings - what is necessary for reporting/tracking/accountability, what is nice to have, and things that can go by the wayside. Expect some changes in the nearish future.

Thank you for the update ^_^

Thank you for the update ^_^

Seconded!

The biggest change is a revamp to how we are titling the guides

Bigger than fame being eliminated in season 2? Bigger than boons being removed from chronicles?

Quote:

The biggest change is a revamp to how we are titling the guides

Bigger than fame being eliminated in season 2? Bigger than boons being removed from chronicles?

Wait. I missed something. Fame is being eliminated in Season 2?

TwilightKnight wrote:

Quote:

The biggest change is a revamp to how we are titling the guides

Bigger than fame being eliminated in season 2? Bigger than boons being removed from chronicles?

Wait. I missed something. Fame is being eliminated in Season 2?

So goes the rumour mill. I'm not sure if it's been officially confirmed or not but it is true that Citadel of Corruption (2-01) does NOT have the usual boiler plate about assigning fame. Mountain of Sea and Sky (2-02) DOES have that boilerplate however so at least 1 is in error :-)

So goes the rumour mill. I'm not sure if it's been officially confirmed or not but it is true that Citadel of Corruption (2-01) does NOT have the usual boiler plate about assigning fame. Mountain of Sea and Sky (2-02) DOES have that boilerplate however so at least 1 is in error :-)

You have an early version of Mountains from running it at Gencon. I bought the scenario on regular release and it doesnt refer to fame. The King in Thorns PDF was explicitly rereleased with the reference to fame removed.

I dont think it can be in doubt that Fame from scenarios is going away. I suspect that everything will move to being bought with ACP.

pauljathome wrote:

So goes the rumour mill. I'm not sure if it's been officially confirmed or not but it is true that Citadel of Corruption (2-01) does NOT have the usual boiler plate about assigning fame. Mountain of Sea and Sky (2-02) DOES have that boilerplate however so at least 1 is in error :-)

You have an early version of Mountains from running it at Gencon. I bought the scenario on regular release and it doesnt refer to fame. The King in Thorns PDF was explicitly rereleased with the reference to fame removed.

I dont think it can be in doubt that Fame from scenarios is going away. I suspect that everything will move to being bought with ACP.

That is a pretty compelling argument :-).

I liked the reputation/fame mechanic :(

I liked the reputation/fame mechanic :(

Reputation is still in there.

Not liking the way this is going. More and more things are being opened up to reporting error.

Guess we are moving away from "paper is king" and the honor code of playing, where we trusted the players to have integrity when building their characters.

Sorry if I am sounding jaded, but have experiences to back up why I feel the way that I do