Tales of Lost Omens: All That Glitters

Thursday, June 20, 2019

Invisible and as silent as a church fart, Twilp Farfan slipped through the sparse midday crowds of Sothis's Malhitu Bazaar. Skulking in broad daylight always freaked the halfling out, but if he didn't stir up too much dust or bump into anyone, his passage would go unnoticed. Sothans tended to close up shop and nap in the blazing heat of the day, so there weren't many people about.

All good for me. He paused in the shade of an awning and wiped his face. All except the heat.

Twilp studied the blue-domed cupolas across the square and found the right building. Two burly guards stood beside the beaded doorway of Kepeshka's Antiquities Emporium. Sweat glistened on their ebony skin, their eyelids sagging, but each rested a hand on a khopesh at his belt.

Nobody trusts anyone these days. Of course, that included Twilp. He didn't care who he stole for or from, as long as the gold was yellow. In Sothis, gold was all that mattered, and after the fall of the pyramids, there had been a glut of expensive antiquities on the market, ripe for the picking. The halfling's gaze drifted up to Sothis's looming Black Dome and the recently fallen pyramid beyond. The instant it hit the ground, grave robbers had swarmed like ants over a fallen elephant. The very trinket he was being paid to steal had come from that megalithic monstrosity. Twilp didn't know what was so important about this particular bauble anyway; a dagger was a dagger as far as he was concerned. But gold...

The ground-floor windows were girded with ornate iron latticework, and the sheer walls defied even the deftest climber. Twilp edged around the square and up to the bead-curtained doorway. The guards blinked lazily, half asleep. The burglar eased down to the ground and squirmed quietly beneath the curtain.

Good thing I'm skinny. He rose up inside and scanned the showroom. A woman sat behind a counter, idly polishing a lamp. Twilp grinned. Now for the prize.

Illustration by Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Upstairs, he found the merchant's bedroom. Two more guards stood at the door, which gaped to allow the breeze to circulate. They didn't even twitch when he slipped past them. Gauzy curtains billowed, the Black Dome and pyramid looming beyond. Some said everything from the inside of the fallen pyramid was cursed, but Twilp didn't believe it. Gold was the only thing he believed in.

Twilp tore his eyes away from the view, and skulked over to the merchant's bed. Big enough for six, it currently accommodated only three: the merchant, Lorisi Kepeshka, and two comely men, husbands or toys. Sweat glistened on their skin like the luster of precious metal. Like gold... The dagger hung from the headboard above Kepeshka's tousled black hair, worth enough to keep Twilp happy for months.

The halfling examined the serpent hilt and pommel, its fanged head and ruby eyes. Gaudy. As his fingers curled around the scaled hilt, however, the dagger's eyes came alight.

"Hello, little thief."

Twilp jerked his hand away, unsure for a moment if he'd heard the voice with his ears or in his head. His client, Lady Nikiri, hadn't told him it was haunted. Doesn't matter. As he reached again, a bead of sweat fell from his brow and plopped down right between Lorisi Kepeshka's eyes.

Twilp froze.

She stirred, one hand reaching up to wipe the drop away, her eyes blinking open. She stared right through the invisible burglar for a moment, then looked up to the dagger. She sighed, smiled, and reached for it.

Oh, no you don't! Twilp grabbed for it, and their hands touched the scabbarded weapon at the same instant.

"Well, this should be interesting," the voice said in his mind.

Lorisi Kepeshka's eyes flung wide. "Thief!"

Crap! Twilp jerked the dagger out of her grasp, and the weapon became invisible.

"The dagger! Thief!" Kepeshka's bedmates lurched up, and the door guards burst in, swords drawn.

"Kill her!" the voice said in Twilp's head. "Use me!"

Bugger off! Twilp backed away.

"Someone took the dagger!" Kepeshka vaulted out of bed. "They're invisible! Block the door and sweep the room!"

"Is that any way to talk to someone who can make you a god?" the voice of the dagger asked.

You can hear my thoughts?

"Yes, and read your greedy little soul, Twilp Farfan."

Great. Now shut up; I'm busy! He clipped the dagger to his belt and dashed for the window.

"Wait! Aren't you going to kill her? You really should, you know."

I'm a burglar, not an assassin. Twilp leapt and tore through the gauzy curtains.

"Oh, but her life force can be yours! I can give it to you!"

I don't want it. The burglar hit a canvas awning and slid. Anyone heavier would have torn right through, but Twilp didn't. "But it'll make you powerful, invulnerable, immortal!"

Don't particularly want those either. He flipped off the awning into the street, bowling down a man carrying a basket of flatbread.

"What kind of mortal are you?" The dagger sounded incredulous.

The kind who likes his life the way it is. Now shut up.

"Thief!" Kepeshka screeched from the window, pointing right at him. "Guards! After that thief!"

The two ground-floor guards drew their swords and advanced.

Twilp now understood why Lady Nikiri wanted the dagger. Denied the political power of her elder siblings, married to a lesser house, and now aging and bitter, the lure of power and immortality would be irresistible to her.

I'll settle for gold. Twilp dashed up the street.

"Coward," the dagger chided.

Twilp ignored it and ran.

"There!" one of the guards bellowed.

Twilp glanced back and saw the puffs of dust where his feet touched the street. They'd spotted him.

The burglar dodged under awnings, over, around, and under displays of goods, but they were hot on his heels, their longer legs doubling his best speed.

"Kill them! I'll make you a god!"

And deal with all that religion crap? No thanks! Twilp sprinted past the auction houses and into the Rose Quarter, trying to keep the dust of his passage down, but to no avail.

"There!" The guards were right on him.

Desperate, Twilp dodged into Wimiri's Bathhouse.

"Look! Footprints!"

Twilp glanced back at his dusty tracks on the otherwise spotless tile floor. Damn!

"Kill them!" the dagger screamed.

Shut up! The halfling dodged through a doorway and skidded to a stop inches before falling into a sunken bath crowded with chatting women sipping cool drinks. The guard chasing him wasn't so dexterous.

The man slammed into Twilp's back, and they both plunged into the bath. Twilp's head cracked the bottom of the shallow pool hard enough to stun him. He thrashed to the surface, women screaming, and a meaty fist closed on the neck of his jerkin.

"Got you, little thief!" The guard lifted him, raising his khopesh.

"Kill him!" the dagger bellowed in his mind. "Use me! It's your only chance!"

For once, Twilp agreed. He had to get free, and the blade hung at his belt. He drew it and stabbed the man's elbow.

"YES!"

Crimson light flooded the bath. The dagger's blade shone like a flaming ruby, pulsing with life as it pierced the guard's arm. The man drew a startled breath, eyes wide, not in pain, but in terror.

Flesh shriveled on the guard's bones, blood, life, and for all Twilp knew, his soul sucked away into the blade...and into Twilp. The dried husk of flesh crumbled, and the halfling hit the water.

The bathers erupted in panic, thrashing to get away from the spreading pall of ashes in the water.

"There, now." The dagger sounded satisfied. "Feel better?"

Twilp did feel better, his pain gone, his head clear, and he fairly bristled with energy. He felt like he could do anything, like he would live forever.

"And you can," the dagger assured him. "Every life you take with me will make you greater."

Twilp thought of it, immortality, power, riches, the helpless bathers fleeing around him, and almost puked. He thrashed out of the water and invoked the magic of his ring again, blinking into invisibility. Sheathing the dagger and snatching up a towel, he slipped out of the bathing room, avoiding the panicked patrons. The voice of the dagger rang in his head, urging him to sheath it in flesh, to drink their lives.

Quelling the temptation to become a god, Twilp crept into another wing of the establishment. Sheltered alcoves, each with a lidded commode, lined a wall beneath narrow windows.

Perfect! Twilp hopped up onto a bench and lifted the lid at his feet.

"What are you doing?"

He thought about what the dagger had promised him, and what someone like Lady Nikiri would do with it. The gold she had promised him suddenly seemed stained with blood.

Twilp drew the dagger.

"What are you doing?!"

"Saving my soul, you filthy piece of crap." Twilp held it over the dark pit.

"DON'T!"

Twilp released his grip and watched the blade's red glow vanish into the depths. With a wet plop, the crimson light winked out. Hundreds of patrons would bury the weapon deeper. Nobody would ever dig it up.

"Some treasures are better left buried." Twilp clambered up the wall to slip through the narrow window into the fresh air. "And some things are worth more than gold."

Chris A. Jackson
Contributing Author

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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I love when people throw out abbreviations just expecting everyone to know what they're talking about. Not. :-(

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ye would have to read Book of the Damned, Concordance of Rivals and Inner Sea Gods to have context for what the topic is :p

Anyway, I personally subscribe to "There might or might not be multiple Asmodeus" theory because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story, it would make more sense than Asmodeus being both ex empyreal lord and one of first two gods :p

Liberty's Edge

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SOLDIER-1st wrote:
The same story is in CoR, which was written before BotD and also doesn’t involve devils.

Who tells it is sort of irrelevant to my main point, really. It's a story told in-world, while the 'rebel angel' theory is one with actual non-IC textual support.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I don’t understand your reasoning for the timing incompatibility, and I don’t recall enough of the rebellion to comment (I will refresh myself tomorrow).

The timing incompatibility is that he was one among many angels when he rebelled (as is demonstrated by him recruiting others) and you pretty much don't get to be an angel after murdering your brother for exceedingly Evil reasons. Meanwhile, the murder story happens right at the dawn of creation, possibly before angels even existed.

Multiple Asmodeus's is totally possible. As, technically, is him having conned Heaven for a prolonged time, though the latter seems unlikely in context.

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,

After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.

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Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.

What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

Liberty's Edge

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CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

I'm almost entirely certain that James Jacobs has mentioned that inevitables are going to be going on the back-burner for the foreseeable future (as they're technically Wizards of the Coast property - they can be used in tabletop RPGs because of the Open Game License, but can't be used in any other mediums, I think is the main issue. Plus they're not as cool as aeons! :P), but they're not going to be phased out to not existing canonically.

EDIT'd the above to minimize acronyms that may be less well-known :)


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Arcaian wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

I'm almost entirely certain that James Jacobs has mentioned that inevitables are going to be going on the back-burner for the foreseeable future (as they're technically Wizards of the Coast property - they can be used in tabletop RPGs because of the Open Game License, but can't be used in any other mediums, I think is the main issue. Plus they're not as cool as aeons! :P), but they're not going to be phased out to not existing canonically.

{. . .}

How Avengers: Endgame should have gone:
Thanos: I am INEVITABLE.

Tony Stark: And I'm a Wizards of the Coast lawyer! <Snap>

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Arcaian wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

I'm almost entirely certain that James Jacobs has mentioned that inevitables are going to be going on the back-burner for the foreseeable future (as they're technically Wizards of the Coast property - they can be used in tabletop RPGs because of the Open Game License, but can't be used in any other mediums, I think is the main issue. Plus they're not as cool as aeons! :P), but they're not going to be phased out to not existing canonically.

EDIT'd the above to minimize acronyms that may be less well-known :)

Shouldn't they still be able to use the Paizo original inevitables like that six eyed robo samurai one?(plus their names are from mythology anyway. Well the D&D ones, I think lot of paizo original ones have same sort of non real word names like D&D demons and devils do for most part)

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

Just the amount of aggrandizing retconning it purports if you take it as even slightly true. Two Primal Inevitables almost defeated Rovagug solely by themselves, one is the reason we have to have to components in magic when casting spells, making them the most august deity in regards to magic, that Axis completely withstood the invasion against Proteans (that had teamed up with demons) with ease which was just some pathetic skirmishes and not the maelstrom itself rising up, which also derails the Inevitable origin myth.

It more and more reads like Tabris got his information from a couple of drunk Axiomites at an Axian Tavern.

Which isn’t a knock against the writers or even claiming they messed up, far from it, this sort of misinformation “which sort of origin is true?” is intentional on Paizo’s part and delightful.

Dark Archive

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Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

Just the amount of aggrandizing retconning it purports if you take it as even slightly true. Two Primal Inevitables almost defeated Rovagug solely by themselves, one is the reason we have to have to components in magic when casting spells, making them the most august deity in regards to magic, that Axis completely withstood the invasion against Proteans (that had teamed up with demons) with ease which was just some pathetic skirmishes and not the maelstrom itself rising up, which also derails the Inevitable origin myth.

It more and more reads like Tabris got his information from a couple of drunk Axiomites at an Axian Tavern.

Which isn’t a knock against the writers or even claiming they messed up, far from it, this sort of misinformation “which sort of origin is true?” is intentional on Paizo’s part and delightful.

To be fair on some of those, one of them almost created an invention that could have defeated Rovagug, but didn't and on second one I don't think gods needs to use components nor is there reason why gods couldn't decide how magic works.

That said, Tabris definitely does have pro monitor bias :D This is the only book where he isn't negative about the subject

Silver Crusade

CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

Just the amount of aggrandizing retconning it purports if you take it as even slightly true. Two Primal Inevitables almost defeated Rovagug solely by themselves, one is the reason we have to have to components in magic when casting spells, making them the most august deity in regards to magic, that Axis completely withstood the invasion against Proteans (that had teamed up with demons) with ease which was just some pathetic skirmishes and not the maelstrom itself rising up, which also derails the Inevitable origin myth.

It more and more reads like Tabris got his information from a couple of drunk Axiomites at an Axian Tavern.

Which isn’t a knock against the writers or even claiming they messed up, far from it, this sort of misinformation “which sort of origin is true?” is intentional on Paizo’s part and delightful.

To be fair on some of those, one of them almost created an invention that could have defeated Rovagug, but didn't and on second one I don't think gods needs to use components nor is there reason why gods couldn't decide how magic works.

That said, Tabris definitely does have pro monitor bias :D This is the only book where he isn't negative about the subject

That it ended up failing is not the relevant part, that fact that two Primal Inevitables, demigods were able to hold off Rovagug, who slaughtered hundreds of deities, by themselves for any amount of time, let alone almost win, is. For the second this wasn't a group of gods or even one, it was a demigod that apparently completely rewrote how magic functions in all of existence for every single spellcaster that isn't a full on deity.

Liberty's Edge

CorvusMask wrote:
Arcaian wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
because assuming Tabris didn't write up completely made up story,
After reading Concordance of Rivals I actually lean more to this, especially after reading the Primal Inevitable section.
What in Primal Inevitable section specifically made you think that? (besides that they apparently won't exist in 2e anymore or something :'D )

I'm almost entirely certain that James Jacobs has mentioned that inevitables are going to be going on the back-burner for the foreseeable future (as they're technically Wizards of the Coast property - they can be used in tabletop RPGs because of the Open Game License, but can't be used in any other mediums, I think is the main issue. Plus they're not as cool as aeons! :P), but they're not going to be phased out to not existing canonically.

EDIT'd the above to minimize acronyms that may be less well-known :)

Shouldn't they still be able to use the Paizo original inevitables like that six eyed robo samurai one?(plus their names are from mythology anyway. Well the D&D ones, I think lot of paizo original ones have same sort of non real word names like D&D demons and devils do for most part)

I'm a vaguely informed commentator, not a lawyer or a representative of any companies involved, so please take my knowledge with a grain of salt :P As far as I'm aware, the established lore as to the hierarchy of inevitables means it's very difficult to tell a story without running into something that they can't put into non-tRPG formats and legal worries - plus the Paizo devs (quite reasonably) prefer working with their own creations.

Silver Crusade

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As a lawyer I can tell you that Paizo can't use inevitables anywhere outside the pnp RPG, which makes building a multimedia (comics, board games, fiction, animated series, manga, audio plays) franchise a PITA.

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Gorbacz wrote:
As a lawyer I can tell you that Paizo can't use inevitables anywhere outside the pnp RPG, which makes building a multimedia (comics, board games, fiction, animated series, manga, audio plays) franchise a PITA.

There we go, someone who actually knows what they're talking about! Thanks for assist :)

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Doesn't stop them from using D&D demons with names removed though <_<


CorvusMask wrote:
Doesn't stop them from using D&D demons with names removed though <_<

Which ones are you talking about? A lot of the demon names used in D&D (and other RPGs) are based on real world myths, so can't be easily protected by copyright.

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Saedar wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Doesn't stop them from using D&D demons with names removed though <_<
Which ones are you talking about? A lot of the demon names used in D&D (and other RPGs) are based on real world myths, so can't be easily protected by copyright.

Glabrezu :p


CorvusMask wrote:
Saedar wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Doesn't stop them from using D&D demons with names removed though <_<
Which ones are you talking about? A lot of the demon names used in D&D (and other RPGs) are based on real world myths, so can't be easily protected by copyright.
Glabrezu :p

Ah. Got nothing on that one. :)

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:
Saedar wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Doesn't stop them from using D&D demons with names removed though <_<
Which ones are you talking about? A lot of the demon names used in D&D (and other RPGs) are based on real world myths, so can't be easily protected by copyright.
Glabrezu :p

Glabrezu are consistently called Treachery Demons in fiction and PFACG.

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Yeah, but why you can't use Paizo original inevitables without ever bringing up they are inevitables? Its not like inevitables are only robot outsiders in the game even (well automatons are constructs but still)

I mean, glabrezu's design between D&D and pathfinder is similar enough to recognize it as same thing, so it can't be just that robot outsiders are off limits <_<

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Because it's not just the name. Paizo can use Treachery Demons outside OGL without calling them Glabrezu, because "treachery demon that has horns and scales" is very generic and any claim that it's WotC's property would likely get thrown away in the court.

That's also why Paizo moves away from several WotC names for generic things, like Ankhegs. Because the only really WotC-made thing about them is the name and some bits of lore that are easily replaced, because honestly, you wouldn't care if Ankhegs are dumb big bugs or refined intellectuals who write poetry with their mucus.

Inevitables, on the other hand, are super specific. You can call them Neverceasers, but you can't really make them not-inevitables without drawing upon very detailed, WotC-made lore. You'd basically have to not describe them at all, because virtually everything about them is WotC IP that's made open via OGL for some uses only. And you can't touch that in fiction.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's an inevitable character in Death's Heretic if I'm remembering correctly.

Liberty's Edge

Squeakmaan wrote:
There's an inevitable character in Death's Heretic if I'm remembering correctly.

I believe the character in question was an Aeon (of the 'must destroy true immortals' sort), actually. I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I don't even think there is an Inevitable for that.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Squeakmaan wrote:
There's an inevitable character in Death's Heretic if I'm remembering correctly.
I believe the character in question was an Aeon (of the 'must destroy true immortals' sort), actually. I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I don't even think there is an Inevitable for that.

Nah. Aeons were incomprehensible and very, very alien in that series.

Silver Crusade

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Squeakmaan wrote:
There's an inevitable character in Death's Heretic if I'm remembering correctly.

Sure, there could be one and then Paizo's lawyer got better.

Folks, if a company did X at some point in the past, it does not mean that X is legal, X will be done again, X was a smart idea or X was part of a policy that will continue into perpetuity.

Silver Crusade

inevitable, little i.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Squeakmaan wrote:
There's an inevitable character in Death's Heretic if I'm remembering correctly.
I believe the character in question was an Aeon (of the 'must destroy true immortals' sort), actually. I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I don't even think there is an Inevitable for that.

It was definitely an inevitable, although the term was not used, the description, it's behavior toward the protean, and its meet up location at Axis (long before Aeons and Axis became a thing) make this clear. Maruts are dedicated to hunting down mortals who artificially extend their lifespan.


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Hm. Aeons are a kind of outsider. I'm told that "ioun" is a variation of "aeon". So where, exactly, do ioun stones come from?


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Ed Reppert wrote:
I'm told that "ioun" is a variation of "aeon".

This is a fairly recent Paizo retcon to tie them to their own intellectual property. IOUN stones, which were something somewhat different, originated in an early 70's Jack Vance novel, then were adapted into D&D a few years later. Aeon's are a later Paizo invention that at creation had nothing to do with Ioun stones until someone realized they sounded kind of similar and wouldn't it be cool if.

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Gorbacz, you do realize you are still being bit disingenuous there?

Like Glabrezu isn't just "demon with scales and horns" its "hulking demon with four arms with second arm of pair being smaller and large pair being crab claws that tries to trick you into making a wish it then twists".

Like you can probably argue that that is still generically demon enough to not break copyright, but you still oversimplified it too much first time around :p

Inevitables aren't really anymore super specific compared to glabrezu, they are "robots from Axis". Its clearly more about how nobody at pathfinder team is that interested in inevitables in first place compared to how Glabrezu and such are so iconic that everyone likes them despite them not having rights to them.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They are, and you aren't a lawyer. Things that are "obvious" and "clear" for non-lawyers end up costing millions and landing people in jail. That's how we earn our living, by explaining people that they can put neothelids in their game, but they can't put illthids despite "insert your rational argument why they should be able to".

Glabrezu is a bunch of public domain clobbered together + a WotC name. Inevitables are WotC invention "leased" out via OGL. Take the OGL out and treachery demons are 99% safe to use, while the Notavoidables ... depends, how hard do you want to find that out in court?

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Why are you trying to use ad hominem to discredit the argument instead of actually explaining why and hows?(well besides you not being paid for this if the explanation is really long and hard since it'd be same as doing your job for free) Also annoyed about how you keep putting words into my mouth or assuming what I'm thinking since I haven't at any point claimed its "obvious" or "rational".

All I said was that D&D didn't make up the magic robot concept same way D&D didn't make up wish granting demons :P Heck Paizo already has their own version of magic robots that live in Axis(automatons). Its not even case like where Final Fantasy can use coeurl because right owners didn't know about them and didn't claim their copyright for 10+ years, concept itself isn't that unique. Heck, the fact that LN planes are same in both except with different names also supports that argument, you can't copyright "infinite city in another plane of existence"

You kind of keep avoiding saying what about inevitables makes them unusable if paizo(besides paizo not liking them) uses their own original ones that D&D never had in the first place and if they avoid using the term itself? Like, if there is robot samurai from Axis, what part about that breaks D&D copyright anymore than automaton samurai from Axis?

Like, I don't even disagree with the thing you say(I agree that paizo shouldn't use inevitables in their books because it would get super awkward fast to dance around the facts they can't mention their name. Well, okay, it does work in the comic book where Valeros shows up in Boneyard, but thats because you don't need to describe in comic book what the magic robot punching the bird actually is), I disagree with methods on how you argue about it :P

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To step back little before we argue more about semantics, I actually do think from "expanded material"(aka books/video games/comics/adventure card game) it does make sense to make Aeons the main LN outsider type because that way you can name major outsider type for all nine alignments in all the material. Meanwhile if LN was only odd one out because of inevitables, that'd be silly.

I do have mixed feelings on it from in universe perspective depending on how they actually handle it in practice.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Why are you trying to use ad hominem to discredit the argument instead of actually explaining why and hows?

You did ask him if he realizes he's being disingenous...

I'd like for Gorbacz to explain in further detail the difference between "treachery demon" and "inevitable", but I think it's the kind of nuance we'd appreciate only if we worked with courts, juries and judges regularly as an actual job.

Anyways I'm very sad they're dropping Inevitables, I really loved the design for a large part of them (mostly the Paizo-developed ones) and I really hope they at least recycle the main details for other creatures in 2e...

Liberty's Edge

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Roswynn wrote:
Anyways I'm very sad they're dropping Inevitables, I really loved the design for a large part of them (mostly the Paizo-developed ones) and I really hope they at least recycle the main details for other creatures in 2e...

I don't get the impression they're completely dropped, and wouldn't be surprised to see some show up in later Bestiaries, they're just shifting focus away from them as the primary LN Outsider.

Dark Archive

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Roswynn wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Why are you trying to use ad hominem to discredit the argument instead of actually explaining why and hows?
You did ask him if he realizes he's being disingenous...

That wasn't me trying to discredit the argument <_< I honestly couldn't tell if he was doing it on purpose or not because of his sense of humor and you can't hear tone in Internet.

Still, good point, I am very blunt.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

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There are inevitables in the P2 Bestiary. They're not going anywhere. They may just not be grouped under the "Inevitable" umbrella like they were in P1.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
The same story is in CoR, which was written before BotD and also doesn’t involve devils.

Who tells it is sort of irrelevant to my main point, really. It's a story told in-world, while the 'rebel angel' theory is one with actual non-IC textual support.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I don’t understand your reasoning for the timing incompatibility, and I don’t recall enough of the rebellion to comment (I will refresh myself tomorrow).

The timing incompatibility is that he was one among many angels when he rebelled (as is demonstrated by him recruiting others) and you pretty much don't get to be an angel after murdering your brother for exceedingly Evil reasons. Meanwhile, the murder story happens right at the dawn of creation, possibly before angels even existed.

Multiple Asmodeus's is totally possible. As, technically, is him having conned Heaven for a prolonged time, though the latter seems unlikely in context.

Ok, so I finally finished reading through all the books I had access to (Book of the Damned, Chronicle of the Righteous, Concordance of Rivals, and the Bestiary 6 entries for the archfiends). Books that might be pertinent but I don't have access to are Faiths of Corruption, Gods and Magic, and that one article about Asmodeus from Mother of Flies (Council of Thieves part 5).

From everything I've read, the rebellion against Heaven/the Exodus and the war against Ihys are the same thing. They are explicitly called out as the same thing in several out of character text descriptions. There's also not really a timeline, but what vague one we have doesn't seem to contradict itself that I can find.

Also: something that you've said several times is that Asmodeus is a fallen angel, and while I seem to remember that being the case as well, I cannot find anything that actually says that. Do you know where that is stated, or is that just something we've all collectively just assumed?


SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Also: something that you've said several times is that Asmodeus is a fallen angel, and while I seem to remember that being the case as well, I cannot find anything that actually says that. Do you know where that is stated, or is that just something we've all collectively just assumed?

That is something D&D introduced.

Liberty's Edge

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Ok, so I finally finished reading through all the books I had access to (Book of the Damned, Chronicle of the Righteous, Concordance of Rivals, and the Bestiary 6 entries for the archfiends). Books that might be pertinent but I don't have access to are Faiths of Corruption, Gods and Magic, and that one article about Asmodeus from Mother of Flies (Council of Thieves part 5).

I suspect you have access to more. A lot of the stuff I'm talking about is in the Archdevil Deity Articles (where they discuss the role they played in the rebellion/exodus) in various AP volumes (most notably Moloch in Hell's Vengeance), rather than Asmodeus's own articles.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
From everything I've read, the rebellion against Heaven/the Exodus and the war against Ihys are the same thing. They are explicitly called out as the same thing in several out of character text descriptions. There's also not really a timeline, but what vague one we have doesn't seem to contradict itself that I can find.

The thing is that the original BotD story portrays Ihys and Asmodeus as the sole creators of reality, as older than the other Gods and fundamentally more important. And that's the part that really doesn't fit.

If you'll recall my objection was to him being cited as 'one of two primal deities of the Great Beyond'. Indeed, I specifically noted that I totally bought him killing his brother (which, indeed, looking this over once more, there's a wealth of evidence for).

The CoR version is actually pretty divergent in regards to their importance, with them portrayed as just two among many (Ihys is still noted as having discovered free will, but that's the only reason either of the two is important in a cosmological sense).

The timeline still doesn't seem to quite work out because the rebellion against Heaven seems to have occurred long after free will was a thing (Moloch was explicitly an Archon who ran the Heresy Ovens immediately prior to the rebellion...that seems like something that is unlikely to predate mortals), but it's a lot closer than the BotD version.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Also: something that you've said several times is that Asmodeus is a fallen angel, and while I seem to remember that being the case as well, I cannot find anything that actually says that. Do you know where that is stated, or is that just something we've all collectively just assumed?

That's straight from the Archdevil Articles. He's referred to as a 'Champion of Heaven' and as 'forsaking his wings' and a host of other things that imply this very strongly. I mean, he'd have been an Empyreal Lord, presumably, but an Angelic one.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
From everything I've read, the rebellion against Heaven/the Exodus and the war against Ihys are the same thing. They are explicitly called out as the same thing in several out of character text descriptions. There's also not really a timeline, but what vague one we have doesn't seem to contradict itself that I can find.

The thing is that the original BotD story portrays Ihys and Asmodeus as the sole creators of reality, as older than the other Gods and fundamentally more important. And that's the part that really doesn't fit.

If you'll recall my objection was to him being cited as 'one of two primal deities of the Great Beyond'. Indeed, I specifically noted that I totally bought him killing his brother (which, indeed, looking this over once more, there's a wealth of evidence for).

The CoR version is actually pretty divergent in regards to their importance, with them portrayed as just two among many (Ihys is still noted as having discovered free will, but that's the only reason either of the two is important in a cosmological sense).

That's not what I got from reading it. BotD specifically says that the other "motes" learned how to use the power of the Seal the same way Asmodeus and Ihys did, Asmodeus and Ihys were just the first to do so. As you said, other than that they were the first and strongest, there's nothing particularly cosmologically important about them.

Book of the Damned pg. 260 wrote:
The First were not alone during this age, though, for while they were the first, others followed their paths. From the ranks of the younger motes grew vital forces synchronous to the things Ihys and Asmodeus created, majestic and wild beast spirits, and new personalities akin to the First. These beings gathered upon the islands the brothers created, the greatest of them even learning to shape the power of the Seal themselves.

CoR goes into a bit more detail about how the planes and outsiders were created (and has a more detailed, but still incredibly vague timeline), but other than that they appear to be the same.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
The timeline still doesn't seem to quite work out because the rebellion against Heaven seems to have occurred long after free will was a thing (Moloch was explicitly an Archon who ran the Heresy Ovens immediately prior to the rebellion...that seems like something that is unlikely to predate mortals), but it's a lot closer than the BotD version.

I agree that the rebellion happened after Ihys created free will, but am not sure how that's a discrepancy? That's the catalyst that started the war/rebellion.

Liberty's Edge

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
That's not what I got from reading it. BotD specifically says that the other "motes" learned how to use the power of the Seal the same way Asmodeus and Ihys did, Asmodeus and Ihys were just the first to do so. As you said, other than that they were the first and strongest, there's nothing particularly cosmologically important about them.

It literally says 'Ihys and Asmodeus created the foundation of reality.' and other statements like that. Basically, the BotD version, as Asmodeus's party line, exaggerates his importance quite a bit. Which is the primary thing I was objecting to.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
CoR goes into a bit more detail about how the planes and outsiders were created (and has a more detailed, but still incredibly vague timeline), but other than that they appear to be the same.

At no point in CoR does it even imply that Ihys and Asmodeus are the first deities, nor that they 'created the foundation of reality.' or similar claims.

That's a pretty big difference, actually.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I agree that the rebellion happened after Ihys created free will, but am not sure how that's a discrepancy? That's the catalyst that started the war/rebellion.

My issue is 'how long after that did the war occur?' CoR And BotD make it sound like very soon after, while the Archdevil articles and the like make it seem like a lot more time passes (I have a hard time believing the Heresy Ovens predate Pharasma as such, for example).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
That's not what I got from reading it. BotD specifically says that the other "motes" learned how to use the power of the Seal the same way Asmodeus and Ihys did, Asmodeus and Ihys were just the first to do so. As you said, other than that they were the first and strongest, there's nothing particularly cosmologically important about them.
It literally says 'Ihys and Asmodeus created the foundation of reality.' and other statements like that. Basically, the BotD version, as Asmodeus's party line, exaggerates his importance quite a bit. Which is the primary thing I was objecting to.

Ah. I guess that's a difference in perspective then, I don't see that as being as important as you seem to.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
CoR goes into a bit more detail about how the planes and outsiders were created (and has a more detailed, but still incredibly vague timeline), but other than that they appear to be the same.

At no point in CoR does it even imply that Ihys and Asmodeus are the first deities, nor that they 'created the foundation of reality.' or similar claims.

That's a pretty big difference, actually.

Read the Cycle of Souls excerpt on page 22 of CoR. It states exactly that they were the first, the strongest, and that they (or really Ihys) created the Cycle of Souls.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I agree that the rebellion happened after Ihys created free will, but am not sure how that's a discrepancy? That's the catalyst that started the war/rebellion.
My issue is 'how long after that did the war occur?' CoR And BotD make it sound like very soon after, while the Archdevil articles and the like make it seem like a lot more time passes (I have a hard time believing the Heresy Ovens predate Pharasma as such, for example).

Well, we know that there's no real timeline, but the above-referenced page indicates that mortals predate Heaven itself. So it seems the timeline is:

1) Asmodeus and Ihys (and later the other deities) create life
2) The outer planes are formed from the actions of the mortals
3) Ihys creates free will, starting the cycle of souls. Asmodeus displeased
4) Asmodeus and Ihys (and their various supporters) fight (I'm assuming this is what the books refer to as the Rebellion, but don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere)
5) Asmodeus kills Ihys, takes his followers to Hell (this is explicitly called the Exodus)

You're right in that CoR and BotD both seem to gloss over the intervening time between each event, but they do not give any span of time at all, so it's not really contradictory, just misleading. My take is that that's simply due to the face that Tabris is an immortal and thus has a very different concept/perception of time than we would (and ooc, that would drastically increase the page count if they tried to include too much of the intervening time for something that is relatively unimportant).

Liberty's Edge

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SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Ah. I guess that's a difference in perspective then, I don't see that as being as important as you seem to.

It's rather centrally important to how relevant Asmodeus is in cosmological terms.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Read the Cycle of Souls excerpt on page 22 of CoR. It states exactly that they were the first, the strongest, and that they (or really Ihys) created the Cycle of Souls.

Ah! It does indeed. Still IC text and not well supported by the OOC stuff we have, which was my initial point anyway.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Well, we know that there's no real timeline, but the above-referenced page indicates that mortals predate Heaven itself. So it seems the timeline is:

1) Asmodeus and Ihys (and later the other deities) create life
2) The outer planes are formed from the actions of the mortals
3) Ihys creates free will, starting the cycle of souls. Asmodeus displeased
4) Asmodeus and Ihys (and their various supporters) fight (I'm assuming this is what the books refer to as the Rebellion, but don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere)
5) Asmodeus kills Ihys, takes his followers to Hell (this is explicitly called the Exodus)

You're right in that CoR and BotD both seem to gloss over the intervening time between each event, but they do not give any span of time at all, so it's not really contradictory, just misleading. My take is that that's simply due to the face that Tabris is an immortal and thus has a very different concept/perception of time than we would (and ooc, that would drastically increase the page count if they tried to include too much of the intervening time for something that is relatively unimportant).

There's zero OOC text supporting the first part of #1 being the case (or, indeed, most of #3, though I personally find that one more plausible). And the huge gap there needs to have been between #3 and #4 for the OOC stuff we have to make sense is a bit of a timeline problem given Asmodeus's demonstrated character.

Asmodeus clearly and unambiguously killed his brother at some point in a war over free will (there are too many OOC references to it for it to be otherwise). That's clear. But a lot of the rest of it is purely the word of Tabris who, let's remember, is not exactly a perfectly reliable source.

It's theoretically possible to fudge and reconcile things, but I'm not at all sure that presents an accurate view of the cosmology's history.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Ah. I guess that's a difference in perspective then, I don't see that as being as important as you seem to.
It's rather centrally important to how relevant Asmodeus is in cosmological terms.

Why? The other deities can also do it. It still would have happened, just differently. All his power and influence comes from the fact that he is older than everyone else. The multiverse would function largely the same with or without him.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Read the Cycle of Souls excerpt on page 22 of CoR. It states exactly that they were the first, the strongest, and that they (or really Ihys) created the Cycle of Souls.
Ah! It does indeed. Still IC text and not well supported by the OOC stuff we have, which was my initial point anyway.

Almost every ooc reference to Asmodeus that I have ever seen (see the books I read through above) directly says that he is one of the oldest and wisest beings in existence. Since the gods don't have stat blocks, nothing ever explicitly says anything about how powerful he is in comparison to other deities, but given the fact that he is the only full-deity devil and is opposed by the entirety of the celestial planes (which are chock full of true deities) without losing or dying, it can be presumed that he is something of a heavyweight. I agree that nothing ooc says that Ihys created the cycle of souls, but the cycle of souls is almost never ooc discussed to the best of my knowledge.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Well, we know that there's no real timeline, but the above-referenced page indicates that mortals predate Heaven itself. So it seems the timeline is:

1) Asmodeus and Ihys (and later the other deities) create life
2) The outer planes are formed from the actions of the mortals
3) Ihys creates free will, starting the cycle of souls. Asmodeus displeased
4) Asmodeus and Ihys (and their various supporters) fight (I'm assuming this is what the books refer to as the Rebellion, but don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere)
5) Asmodeus kills Ihys, takes his followers to Hell (this is explicitly called the Exodus)

You're right in that CoR and BotD both seem to gloss over the intervening time between each event, but they do not give any span of time at all, so it's not really contradictory, just misleading. My take is that that's simply due to the face that Tabris is an immortal and thus has a very different concept/perception of time than we would (and ooc, that would drastically increase the page count if they tried to include too much of the intervening time for something that is relatively unimportant).

There's zero OOC text supporting the first part of #1 being the case (or, indeed, most of #3, though I personally find that one more plausible). And the huge gap there needs to have been between #3 and #4 for the OOC stuff we have to make sense is a bit of a timeline problem given Asmodeus's demonstrated character....

Not sure what you mean by the timeline problem given Asmodeus character...?

Other than that I seem to agree with you, just don't find most of it to be as important as you do. I think our different perspectives are largely procedural in nature. You are looking for IC and OOC references to explicitly support each other, thus holding the lore to a higher degree of rigor than I, who am content with a lack of explicit contradictions or mutual exclusiveness, am.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Not sure what things you're calling "ooc" here, or how you mean the term. I see "out of context" and I think "out of what context?"


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

OOC = Out of character?


David knott 242 wrote:

OOC = Out of character?

Correct. IC (in character) is used to denote things as perceived by the inhabitants of Golarion (so for example the transcripts from Golarion books) and OOC (out of character) is used to denote things as perceived by us (such as the mechanical rules).

I am also now realizing how incredibly off topic this has become. I apologize for derailing the thread.


Of course, one could go the Classic World of Darkness route -- seems like things are already not too far off from it in this department . . . .

Liberty's Edge

@SOLDIER-1st:

Okay, so, quick summary of my perspective: There's no OOC stuff supporting Asmodeus being more powerful or older than most other Gods (cleverer than many, yes, more powerful, no), and I don't think the IC stuff (all from a single IC narrator, btw) is necessarily controlling.

It also seems inconsistent with Asmodeus's character to me to subordinate himself to those he disagrees with for any meaningful length of time (a few years, sure, a few millennia not so much), which is sort of a requirement for the stories to synch up (since he would've needed to work for Heaven for a long time after the free will thing for it to work out).

All that said, I think we've reached an impasse here. We're discussing something where neither of us is definitively and provably right and neither of us are gonna change our minds, so I'm bowing out of the discussion now.

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