Iconic Evolution: Kyra

Crayon wrote:

Always thought it was 'Kee-ra'

You and me both. I miss the pronunciation guide provided in the 3.5 version of the campaign setting to this day.

There was a pronunciation guide in one of the books, but it unhelpfully put down Kyra as KY-ra, which is useful if you're wondering which syllable gets the accent, but less so if you want to know if it's /ki/ or /kai/

Medieval Arabic clothing, especially for women, was just huge and poofy like that. Which is presumably the inspiration here. The art's not bad, it's well-researched. I for one like it.

How effective did it make them in combat?

Kaladin_Stormblessed wrote:

Medieval Arabic clothing, especially for women, was just huge and poofy like that. Which is presumably the inspiration here. The art's not bad, it's well-researched. I for one like it.

How effective did it make them in combat?

Slightly more effective than Alain - Kyra at least is not going to be defeated by a doorway. :P

Kaladin_Stormblessed wrote:

Medieval Arabic clothing, especially for women, was just huge and poofy like that. Which is presumably the inspiration here. The art's not bad, it's well-researched. I for one like it.

How effective did it make them in combat?

Something like this? Would have also been similar to what men wore, including over armor in combat. So, plenty effective.

Oh, and I portray a 12th century Saracen in the Society for Creative Anachronism. The costume I wear for fencing is pretty similar to Kyra's outfit, actually. So, I can speak from personal experience here. Notice how her pants are tucked into her boots, the wider sleeves of the overrobe don't go fully down her arm and stop short enough to not entangle her sword hilt, etc. The overrobe is a little long but could easily be belted up. And I've won fencing bouts because someone hit the edge of my tunic instead of successfully hitting me; having a concealed figure can be an advantage.

Yeah, I don't think Kyra's outfit will hinder her.

Xenocrat wrote:

Kaladin_Stormblessed wrote:

Medieval Arabic clothing, especially for women, was just huge and poofy like that. Which is presumably the inspiration here. The art's not bad, it's well-researched. I for one like it.

How effective did it make them in combat?

Something like this? Would have also been similar to what men wore, including over armor in combat. So, plenty effective.

Oh, and I portray a 12th century Saracen in the Society for Creative Anachronism. The costume I wear for fencing is pretty similar to Kyra's outfit, actually. So, I can speak from personal experience here. Notice how her pants are tucked into her boots, the wider sleeves of the overrobe don't go fully down her arm and stop short enough to not entangle her sword hilt, etc. The overrobe is a little long but could easily be belted up. And I've won fencing bouts because someone hit the edge of my tunic instead of successfully hitting me; having a concealed figure can be an advantage.

Yeah, I don't think Kyra's outfit will hinder her.

That's a very accurate assessment. ( I like research by deed)

Middle Eastern pantaloons tucked into wide rak boots does create the impression of a wide stance. (It's how they looked on my reference model IRL)It's further accentuated by the expansive material being pushed out by the weight of the long maille and gambeson. I deliberately kept it this way to emphasise Kyra's triangular visual silhouette. This has clearly caused some people to misinterpret what is being depicted. (Understandably) But her feet are positioned exactly where they should be for her body frame and stance.

I'm not going to comment on Iconic art that hasn't been previewed yet. I'm sure there are gonna be people who will lose their s&$$ regardless. But I hope they will be well received.
Some of the Iconics have been changed more than others as part of the evolution for 2E.
There are numerous factors that contribute to the Iconic characters design. All of the Iconic characters have visual aspects that have been extensively researched from real-life cross-cultural history. This research into historical elements has been modified with imagination to fit a high fantasy setting. But they often contain more similarities to amazing real-life elements than people often realise. Historical and cultural research is a large portion of the many factors that are taken into consideration when I design a character for a commercial IP. Consequently, there's usually rational aspects to the designs which aren't always immediately apparent to some viewers.

Hi Wayne! Great job with version 2e of the Iconics so far, and I'm sure they will all rock! I'll also be eager to find out as many cultural and historical influences in their character design as I can (I have some Osprey books you illustrated, and I always appreciate the accuracy of your real life details!).

You talk about pantaloons tucked into wide rak boots. I immediately googled that, but found nothing about "rak". I've never heard or read this word before. Is it a type of leather, or a particular crafting technique, used during the Islamic Golden Age perhaps?

I love your art and would like to see a lot more gracing the pages of PF products, so here's hoping! Thank you again for this inspiring, exciting and aesthetically wonderful selection of great characters you had such a big role in leading us to know and love!

Hi Wayne! Great job with version 2e of the Iconics so far, and I'm sure they will all rock! I'll also be eager to find out as many cultural and historical influences in their character design as I can (I have some Osprey books you illustrated, and I always appreciate the accuracy of your real life details!).

You talk about pantaloons tucked into wide rak boots. I immediately googled that, but found nothing about "rak". I've never heard or read this word before. Is it a type of leather, or a particular crafting technique, used during the Islamic Golden Age perhaps?

Thanks very much Roswynn.

Rak are boots with armoured plates rivetted on the inside of the boot. You can see the rivet studs on the outside of the boot. They're pretty clumpy. The two examples (and replica) I've studied are dated at 18C India. But the technology has been around Europe and Asia for centuries before then.

The new art definitely seems to make her clothing too wide, but on inspection that appears to be just from perspective. Comparing the old art and the new, all that has really changed is her posture and that she's added a much larger cloth wrap around the outside of her helmet (which also contributes to the illusion).

Thanks very much Roswynn.

Rak are boots with armoured plates rivetted on the inside of the boot. You can see the rivet studs on the outside of the boot. They're pretty clumpy. The two examples (and replica) I've studied are dated at 18C India. But the technology has been around Europe and Asia for centuries before then.

Oh, so the same as a brigandine, but for boots! That's ingenious, and one of those nice touches I love in your art - I was gushing over those boots even before knowing what their deal was exactly, but the added explanation is great!

Thanks to you, Wayne, you're one of the greats! ^___^

The new art definitely seems to make her clothing too wide, but on inspection that appears to be just from perspective. Comparing the old art and the new, all that has really changed is her posture and that she's added a much larger cloth wrap around the outside of her helmet (which also contributes to the illusion).

I love that her hijab is more prominent now. It's so cool to have the iconic cleric of your favorite game/setting be an Arab woman, with all the cultural tidbits done right, too. I think this is the kind of content that sends a powerful message, while avoiding shoving it down anyone's throat.

(When I told another feminist friend of mine about the dwarven Rivethun subculture she was equally enthusiastic. Paizo is really bringing it, particularly in these last years).

I love that her hijab is more prominent now. It's so cool to have the iconic cleric of your favorite game/setting be an Arab woman, with all the cultural tidbits done right, too.

Her headwrap seems to be more of a protective piece of desert-wear than a religious garment. Nothing about Sarenrae or her church suggests hijab to be a thing (also, if you look closely, Kyra's wide sleeves expose part of her arm, the piece on her forearms being bracers).

As for the head wear discussion: Would it be a tagelmust then? I'm sure it has a different name if it's wrapped round a helmet like that, but I can't think of what it would be.

The tagelmust is the wrap worn by Tuareg men and it's blue or indigo in color.

Her headwrap seems to be more of a protective piece of desert-wear than a religious garment. Nothing about Sarenrae or her church suggests hijab to be a thing (also, if you look closely, Kyra's wide sleeves expose part of her arm, the piece on her forearms being bracers).

I'm using the word "hijab" rather loosely here. It's obvious Kyra isn't a Muslim, nor a fantasy version thereof, but she's definitely Golarion's equivalent of an Arab, and the Keleshite Empire mirrors the Islamic Golden Age (again, without monotheism - even though iirc most Keleshite ethnicities worship Sarenrae almost exclusively, and there are a couple parallels).

It's true though, Sarenrae's creed doesn't mandate particular types of garments, even though the typical desert nomad outfit in white, blue and gold is often associated with the faith. But you don't have to cover your head or, say, eat halal!

I'm mostly referring to how the tagelmust is tied and its purpose. I wouldn't expect Pathfinder to import the cultural specifics.

Came back from five days in the friggin' woods to this? Not bad!

Changes here seem to be pretty minor...

But MAN I love her armor, and all the little ribbon details.

And as I've come to expect, her face is a straight-up improvement- it's less "generic" than MkI. Also just flat-out looks tougher, which I appreciate.

I am very excited about pants in Pathfinder 2nd edition. For one thing, since item slots are no longer a thing we have the possibility of magic pants which is a thing I have always wanted.

I would settle for a pair of regular pants.

She's not the priest of the Dawnflower we need, but she's the one we deserve.

Seriously, all joking aside, I appreciate this look a great deal more than the original. The design elements make it jump off the page at the viewer!

And now he's clarifying that he thinks she's too wide because Wayne drew her poorly, not because she looks like a realistically wide human and he feels that's wrong for an adventurer. The latter is an invention of Gorbacz.

...Haven't people learned by now not to take anything Gorbacz says seriously? XD