Meet the Iconics: Fumbus

Friday, March 1, 2019

Born in Isger's Chitterwood, Fumbus's early life was practically idyllic, at least by goblin standards. The Chitterwood has been largely left to the goblins since the end of the Goblinblood Wars nearly twenty years ago, its goblin inhabitants now free of the militant influence of their hobgoblin cousins, most of whom were eradicated or driven out of Isger at the closing of the war.

Fumbus had the honor of serving as apprentice to the Fire-Eater goblin clan's chief pickle-maker, a position which gave him a fair amount of standing amongst his kin. Unfortunately, Fumbus had a particular penchant for experimentation that led to spectacular failures as often as it led to new delicacies. When a particularly unstable batch of "spicy pickle brine" exploded in the middle of the Fire-Eater encampment, Fumbus fled the Chitterwood, fearing that the reprisal from his fellow goblins for destroying both the clan's precious pickle barrel and a significant supply of cucumbers would be swift and violent.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Fumbus's initial forays into the wider world were truly terrifying. Scavenging from human farms usually ended poorly, as vicious dogs and horrifying horses would bite, chase, or stomp the poor goblin if they caught wind of his presence. The humans themselves were often even more terrifying, and Fumbus found himself fleeing pitchfork-wielding mobs with stolen, smelly shoes (easiest to find without a light and useful as either food or clothing) tucked under one arm far more often than he found a safe place to fill his belly and sleep. Fumbus's life likely would have ended at the hands of one of these mobs had he not encountered a passing half-orc Pathfinder named Droven whose initial reaction to the little goblin was humor, rather than fear or violence. Used to dealing with a certain amount of prejudice and distrust himself, Droven dissuaded the mob from pursuing their vendetta against the goblin and allowed Fumbus to accompany him on his mission.

Droven's heroics entranced young Fumbus, particularly the alchemical fire and other concoctions the half-orc used to defeat his opponents. When Droven completed his mission for the Pathfinder Society, he brought Fumbus back with him to Absalom. Droven helped secure a home for the little goblin in the Puddles district, where Fumbus's presence would be less likely to cause a stir, and shared what he knew of alchemy with the eager goblin. While Fumbus was terrified at the thought of needing to write down formulas, his mind was sharp and he quickly mastered the art of reading; to Fumbus, collecting these foolishly discarded thoughts was no different than surviving off the trash and scraps left on the outskirts of towns and cities. Fumbus came up with his own system for creating and remembering formulas using small tokens engraved with pictographic runes and a series of leather cords, which he would use to bind certain ingredients in specific orders. Together these implements allowed him to practice alchemy without risking his goblin soul or precious thoughts by performing the obscene act of writing anything down. Of further benefit to Fumbus, his new home's location in the Puddles allows the little goblin to experiment with all manner of inflammable and unstable concoctions with little fear of wreaking destruction beyond the building's water-logged rooms.

Droven offered to sponsor Fumbus into the Pathfinder Society, but the goblin was so impressed by Droven that he truly believed he would not be able to pass the Society's rigorous entry exams. Determined to prove himself, Fumbus busily applied his time and energy to creating new alchemical formulas and perfecting his system for recording his discoveries. As Fumbus's confidence grew, he began to believe that perhaps he might find a place in the Pathfinder Society after all. Skulking through the alleys of Absalom, Fumbus made his way to the Grand Lodge. Upon his arrival, Fumbus learned that Droven had left on a mission several weeks ago and was overdue to report in; his ship was believed lost at sea. Droven had left a letter of sponsorship as well as some funds to secure the goblin a chance to learn at the Society's institutions but Fumbus was unwilling to begin his training without the half-orc present.

Months have passed and Droven has still not returned. Fumbus spends his time perfecting his alchemy, seeking news of his lost friend, and looking for opportunities to ingratiate himself to the Pathfinder Society, despite multiple assurances from the Society's members and leadership that Fumbus's welcome was already secured by his half-orc friend. Something in Fumbus's mind refuses to let go of the idea that he must prove himself to be a worthy explorer of the same caliber as Droven, whose heroics and skill are unmatched in Fumbus's view. The little goblin has made a decision that he holds sacrosanct: he will earn his entrance to the Society by either finding his friend Droven and bringing the half-orc home, or by performing a truly heroic act worthy of the reputation Droven holds in Fumbus's own eyes.

Michael Sayre
Developer

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Tags: Alchemists Fumbus Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yep, still fine with goblins.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I like the exploration of the Goblin mindset and cultural beliefs.

TBH it never occured to me that Goblins had a culture, and even a complex one, before reading this blog. Great job

So Goblins believe that writing things down threatens their soul and IIRC the Goblin gods were released out of Hell by Lamashtu.

Racial memory of signing an Asmodean contract ?

On a completely different note, I guess that dissuading the mob required bombs and good ol' Orcish "diplomacy"


The Raven Black wrote:

I like the exploration of the Goblin mindset and cultural beliefs.

TBH it never occured to me that Goblins had a culture, and even a complex one, before reading this blog. Great job

So Goblins believe that writing things down threatens their soul and IIRC the Goblin gods were released out of Hell by Lamashtu.

Racial memory of signing an Asmodean contract ?
{. . .}

Interesting hypothesis . . . This needs further exploration.


Michael, can I assume that Fumbus' banishment and Droven's disappearance took place in 4719 AR?


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Cyrad wrote:
Pickle explosions.

Picklesplosions! It's like an explosion of flavor!

...also an actual explosion.

Also, for some reason I'm reminded of this.

Liberty's Edge

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Michael Sayre wrote:
It's probably important to keep in mind that those rigorous entrance exams are rigorous based on Fumbus's beliefs; the exact degree to which someone else might consider them rigorous is potentially a matter of debate.

I've tabled with a few characters (and fielded a few myself) that likely would have been on Fumbus's level of appreciation for their difficulty and a few who I'm surprised weren't thrown out for being boars :P


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LOVE IT. This was a really well written introduction. Can't wait for 2nd ed.

Sovereign Court

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Nice write up but goblins as a core PC's is one of my strikes against PF2.


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NightTrace wrote:
I've tabled with a few characters (and fielded a few myself) that likely would have been on Fumbus's level of appreciation for their difficulty and a few who I'm surprised weren't thrown out for being boars :P

What's wrong with being a boar? (I assume awakened or wereboar?)

That's porcine discrimination -- pigism!

On the other hand if they were being boors, I'd completely understand.
Especially if they were being boorish boars! Most unruly.

;p


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

How "Fumbus" spells? There is pronunciation guide (shown phonetically) Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting - can developers write Fumbus (and other new names) in that style, please?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Fumbus was created for Second Edition, so he wouldn't be mentioned in a 3.5 book. As for pronunciation I'm guessing Fum rhymes with fun and then bus like the vehicle.


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I just can't get into a goblin as an iconic.

Goblins should have stayed in the bestiary with the other monsters. Fantasy worlds have long portrayed goblins are too irremediably evil to be trusted in a party and Pathfinder 1st edition was no exception. I'd find it very hard to accept one no matter what changes Paizo says happens between 1st and 2nd editions.

There is nothing wrong with the backstory article though, and I love Wayne Reynolds' art.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Aenigma wrote:
Michael, can I assume that Fumbus' banishment and Droven's disappearance took place in 4719 AR?

Iconic backgrounds have always been nebulous, for story purposes. e.g. There has never been a specific year that Bruce Wayne became Batman...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Darrell Impey UK wrote:
Aenigma wrote:
Michael, can I assume that Fumbus' banishment and Droven's disappearance took place in 4719 AR?
Iconic backgrounds have always been nebulous, for story purposes. e.g. There has never been a specific year that Bruce Wayne became Batman...

Yup; absolutely correct. Since an iconic needs to simultaneously be every possible character level so that they can appear in any illustration, we generally don't set events in their backstories to coincide with a specific date. Once an iconic starts showing up in a thing like a comic book or other story, it'll build its own internal timeline, but even then we try not to nail things down with specific dates. As proxy PCs, the iconics aren't a built-in part of Golarion's history or canonical lore.


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I love the idea of goblins using alternative learning methods to be able to use things like alchemy and magic without using written formulae. I think it's really clever, and I love seeing stuff like this. Give me more of this, please.


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Peachbottom wrote:

I just can't get into a goblin as an iconic.

Goblins should have stayed in the bestiary with the other monsters. Fantasy worlds have long portrayed goblins are too irremediably evil to be trusted in a party and Pathfinder 1st edition was no exception. I'd find it very hard to accept one no matter what changes Paizo says happens between 1st and 2nd editions.

There is nothing wrong with the backstory article though, and I love Wayne Reynolds' art.

Maybe that is why the did it? Besides the iconography of the Pathfinder goblin, it also firmly sets in people minds that "Evil races aren't always evil" which is a convention that Paizo has been trying to get away from the whole time.


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And the effort to recreate goblins (which has already detrimentally dominated two Pathfinder Scenarios) continues. I've never considered that the entire goblin race should be evil, but making them a core race is a dramatic and unneeded change. I see this as taking a very interesting chaotic / insane / generally evil race and trying to shove them into a design space that is already full with gnomes and halflings. To me this is another disappointing choice Paizo is making in the development of PF2.


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I'm so eager to see our classic iconic in their new illustrations and in full color!

*-*

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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My goblin alchemist made the same conclusions as Fumbus. Books are safe to read as long as they weren't stolen from a haunted library or the private study of a powerful wizard. Drawing pictures makes better practice for writing into formula books anyway. A picture coneys much more information than words. Better way to provide information without having your thoughts stolen out of your head.


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Fumbus is defined as : Paizo's Pathfinder version of WOTC'S Drizzt Do'urden...

love him or hate him, but there ya go

Silver Crusade

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Albatoonoe wrote:
Peachbottom wrote:

I just can't get into a goblin as an iconic.

Goblins should have stayed in the bestiary with the other monsters. Fantasy worlds have long portrayed goblins are too irremediably evil to be trusted in a party and Pathfinder 1st edition was no exception. I'd find it very hard to accept one no matter what changes Paizo says happens between 1st and 2nd editions.

There is nothing wrong with the backstory article though, and I love Wayne Reynolds' art.

Maybe that is why the did it? Besides the iconography of the Pathfinder goblin, it also firmly sets in people minds that "Evil races aren't always evil" which is a convention that Paizo has been trying to get away from the whole time.

Plus I've seen worse from Humans.


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Steelfiredragon wrote:

Fumbus is defined as : Paizo's Pathfinder version of WOTC'S Drizzt Do'urden...

love him or hate him, but there ya go

Eh, I don't see it. I'm not the most knowledgeable about Drizzt, but wasn't his main shtick that he was a rebel against everything the Drow are? Also wasn't he like amazing in everything, to Marry-Sue levels? Fumbus isn't rebelling against Goblinhood, he's just run away out of fear of retaliation and trying to find his way in the wider world. And it seems that he's also really rather unsure of himself. He's not the Big Damn Hero type, he's the unlikely hero who bumbled into his heroism. He hopes he can come close to his mentor's heroism (who is probably something like a 7th level character, but in Fumbus' eyes, he's Mythic).

Drizzt was also a Unicorn character. The exception to the rule that drow are horribly and irredeemably evil (except for the PCs patterned after him), while Fumbus seems to be more the fist major look at a new approach to Golarion Goblins. I think they're trying to get away from the idea that Goblins are all horrible. That instead they have a large number who just want to live their own lives, and in the right circumstances can work just fine with the rest of the world. There have been some hints at this before. Back in 2009 a CN goblin was written up in Dark Markets as running a gambling hall, and a CG goblin is described in the new Sandpoint book. I also seem to recall mention of goblins being fashionable servants in Absalom, where they'd clearly be a bit more domesticated. I also rather like the idea (I think first suggested as a joke) that the tendencies of good PCs (particularly some paladins) of saving the children of goblin tribes they fight and putting them into orphanages has a role to play. It's been pointed out over and over that goblins have a tendency to copy others and are easily led by a strong personality. They'll latch on to someone and act like them (as Fumbus did here by latching on to Droven). So goblins raised by good people, will quite likely be good themselves. We'll probably see more about non-evil goblins with coming books.

So no, I don't think it's an accurate comparison. The characters have different reasons for existing. Remember, iconics are also supposed to be stand-ins for PCs. They weren't supposed to be the focus of attention, just placeholders (but people demanded stories about them, so we get the comics). That's a very different role than Drizzt who was more a major setting NPC.


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Herald of the Redeemer Queen wrote:
I love the idea of goblins using alternative learning methods to be able to use things like alchemy and magic without using written formulae. I think it's really clever, and I love seeing stuff like this. Give me more of this, please.

In addition to knotted/braided cords and tokens, I'm now picturing goblin alchemists recording alchemical formulas on wood blocks, hard shell gourds, bones, petrified cukes, and picklebug shells using very precise bites, gnaws, chews, and nibbles.

Contributing Artist

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Great backstory Michael.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:

Fumbus is defined as : Paizo's Pathfinder version of WOTC'S Drizzt Do'urden...

love him or hate him, but there ya go

Eh, I don't see it. I'm not the most knowledgeable about Drizzt, but wasn't his main shtick that he was a rebel against everything the Drow are? Also wasn't he like amazing in everything, to Marry-Sue levels? Fumbus isn't rebelling against Goblinhood, he's just run away out of fear of retaliation and trying to find his way in the wider world. And it seems that he's also really rather unsure of himself. He's not the Big Damn Hero type, he's the unlikely hero who bumbled into his heroism. He hopes he can come close to his mentor's heroism (who is probably something like a 7th level character, but in Fumbus' eyes, he's Mythic).

Drizzt was also a Unicorn character. The exception to the rule that drow are horribly and irredeemably evil (except for the PCs patterned after him), while Fumbus seems to be more the fist major look at a new approach to Golarion Goblins. I think they're trying to get away from the idea that Goblins are all horrible. That instead they have a large number who just want to live their own lives, and in the right circumstances can work just fine with the rest of the world. There have been some hints at this before. Back in 2009 a CN goblin was written up in Dark Markets as running a gambling hall, and a CG goblin is described in the new Sandpoint book. I also seem to recall mention of goblins being fashionable servants in Absalom, where they'd clearly be a bit more domesticated. I also rather like the idea (I think first suggested as a joke) that the tendencies of good PCs (particularly some paladins) of saving the children of goblin tribes they fight and putting them into orphanages has a role to play. It's been pointed out over and over that goblins have a tendency to copy others and are easily led by a strong personality. They'll latch on to someone and act like them (as Fumbus did here by latching on to Droven). So goblins raised...

+1. I actually have a goblin paladin that does the whole raised in the orphanage thing you mention... He's adorable. He was inspired by story books of shiny knights and now tries to emulate them. He carries around his favorite book still, reverently wrapped in canvas, and begs fellow party members to read it to him every night as he falls asleep in their lap.

Given the distinction between reading and writing Fumbus makes here, he's probably convinced that a hero willingly placed his soul in the book to inspire others, as a true Paladin's Sacrifice.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:


... and a CG goblin is described in the new Sandpoint book....

....did my CG goblin rogue from ROTRL use his epic stealth to break into Golarion cannon?! :D

(Ok, not likely since I used a 3rd party goblin variant to build him, but this still makes me smile all giddy-like & reminds me I need to get back to reading that book.)

Anyway, love Fumbus, love goblins being core, can't wait for August! :D


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Captain Morgan wrote:
+1. I actually have a goblin paladin that does the whole raised in the orphanage thing you mention... He's adorable. He was inspired by story books of shiny knights and now tries to emulate them. He carries around his favorite book still, reverently wrapped in canvas, and begs fellow party members to read it to him every night as he falls asleep in their lap.

That is freaking adorable. And does fit what we've seen about goblin personality. Goblins do seem to have a bit of a child-like nature about them. Normally it's the kind of kids who torture small animals and beat up other kids for lunch money or just because they can. Jr. Psychopaths. But this takes that and spins it off in a different direction based on a different upbringing. I like it.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Given the distinction between reading and writing Fumbus makes here, he's probably convinced that a hero willingly placed his soul in the book to inspire others, as a true Paladin's Sacrifice.

There have been some interesting ideas about the whole writing thing in this thread. The distinction between reading and writing is something I hadn't thought of before, but at least Fumbus seems to use it as a strong diving line. I like your Paladin Sacrifice idea too. A good goblin might still think writing steals words out of your head, but might still do it, because others could get use out of those words. But self-sacrifice for the good of others is alien to the normal, selfish goblins. Perhaps some weird goblins might see writing as a way of preserving themselves. "I write this book, and part of me becomes that book. So as long as it exists, I exist." Could make for an interesting goblin-lich phylactery. And the idea that the taboo might have some basis in cultural memory that The Raven Black had up-trhread is also a fascinating idea. Maybe something that could be played with later. There's also the question, why is it such a big taboo for goblins, when almost everyone else reads and writes, seemingly without issue. Is it specifically about goblins writing as opposed to others?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Wayne Reynolds wrote:
Great backstory Michael.

Thanks Wayne! It was a great piece of art to draw inspiration from.

Paizo Employee Licensing Manager

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My Goblin Rogue Playtest character rationalized reading in much the same way, and worshipped Pharasma as a result. His view was that reading others' writing helped "re-find" their souls, so that meant he was participating in correcting their proper journey through life and death.

Also, wine. Substitute wine and wine barrels for pickles and pickle barrels and the stories aren't that different.


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emky wrote:

Goblins shouldn't be core. Goblins shouldn't be core. (I don't like core alchemist either, but I can far more easily accept that.)

I hope you guys are balancing PF2e with the assumption that people will be banning goblin as a playable race at their tables!

Why does it matter if they're core or not? It only affects whether you have to buy a new book to use them or not. The more core races the better, IMO.


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spectrevk wrote:
emky wrote:

Goblins shouldn't be core. Goblins shouldn't be core. (I don't like core alchemist either, but I can far more easily accept that.)

I hope you guys are balancing PF2e with the assumption that people will be banning goblin as a playable race at their tables!

Why does it matter if they're core or not? It only affects whether you have to buy a new book to use them or not. The more core races the better, IMO.

Why does it matter? It matters because PFS is a major aspect of Pathfinder gameplay, and if Goblins are in Core, it will be difficult or impossible to keep them out of PFS.

Goblins have no business being regularly available as PCs, but if they're in Core GMs won't be allowed to ban them from the table.

PC Goblins are a deal-breaker for a lot of players and GMs alike. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.

Silver Crusade

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Amanda Plageman wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
emky wrote:

Goblins shouldn't be core. Goblins shouldn't be core. (I don't like core alchemist either, but I can far more easily accept that.)

I hope you guys are balancing PF2e with the assumption that people will be banning goblin as a playable race at their tables!

Why does it matter if they're core or not? It only affects whether you have to buy a new book to use them or not. The more core races the better, IMO.

Why does it matter? It matters because PFS is a major aspect of Pathfinder gameplay, and if Goblins are in Core, it will be difficult or impossible to keep them out of PFS.

Goblins have no business being regularly available as PCs, but if they're in Core GMs won't be allowed to ban them from the table.

PC Goblins are a deal-breaker for a lot of players and GMs alike. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.

Well, those ain't really big throats if a Goblin fits in.


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Amanda Plageman wrote:


Why does it matter? It matters because PFS is a major aspect of Pathfinder gameplay, and if Goblins are in Core, it will be difficult or impossible to keep them out of PFS.
Goblins have no business being regularly available as PCs, but if they're in Core GMs won't be allowed to ban them from the table.

PC Goblins are a deal-breaker for a lot of players and GMs alike. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.

So... let me see if I can parse this...

because people will be able to show up as goblins to PFS events (a niche part of the market, for the record- I'm sure it's very important to those of you who do it, but for a hell of a lot of us who like Inquisitors of Azathoth or the odd bit of outright supernatural evil as a study in group dynamics, its strictures have required loosening, not tightening, for quite some time), you're upset?

...

Even though Goblins were already unlockable for PFS play by jumping through the requisite hoops? The same hoops that let you play as a Tiefling, or Aasimar, Grippli, or Catfolk, or whatever?

Here, let me re-write your post back at you using MY biases and a hypothetical:

Cole's Utter Loathing for Catfolk wrote:

Why does it matter? It matters because PFS is a major aspect of Pathfinder gameplay, and if Catfolk are in Core, it will be difficult or impossible to keep them out of PFS.

Catfolk have no business existing in any world I want anything to do with, but if they're in Core GMs won't be allowed to ban them from the table.

PC Catfolk are a deal-breaker for me and people who think like me. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.

Y'know what? If Catfolk had been core, I would have rolled my eyes, made a rude motion with one of my hands, and gone about my day.

Terribly sorry if the fact that PFS DMs will no longer get to veto goblins out of hand for starting players bothers you- but PFS already has provisions for goblin PCs for anyone who wanted to play one.

EDIT: Especially since, uh... there's banning by fiat, and there's banning by, "dude, none of us wants to play with that character, don't be a jerk."

The Exchange

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Ugh goblins.

So awful.


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Nice write-up.

Dark Archive

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Well he's a cute little bugger.

Hope Damiel enjoys his retirement.

Silver Crusade

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Amanda Plageman wrote:
PC Goblins are a deal-breaker for a lot of players and GMs alike. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.

So having Goblins as core (they've always been playable) is "shoving them-"... why do I feel like I've had this conversation before?


great story^^


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's a little weird for me to see Fumbus in color, after only seeing him sketched. He's a bit more saturated than I expected- I presume that's thanks to excellent alchemical skin-care products and ready access to high-quality pickles.


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Still don't like the murder monkey mascot being promoted to a core race over other races.


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QuidEst wrote:
It's a little weird for me to see Fumbus in color, after only seeing him sketched. He's a bit more saturated than I expected- I presume that's thanks to excellent alchemical skin-care products and ready access to high-quality pickles.

Oil of OKAY!


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Rysky wrote:
Amanda Plageman wrote:
PC Goblins are a deal-breaker for a lot of players and GMs alike. Shoving them down our throats is one of the things making people hesitant about 2e.
So having Goblins as core (they've always been playable) is "shoving them-"... why do I feel like I've had this conversation before?

Placing an option in core means you get players who are going to react even worse to being told "goblins are GM permission only". When something is in a core rulebook you get a lot of people who assume that means it is an option which can simply be taken.

TBH, as described in the playtest rules, goblins are solidly party slime bait. I also don't see much in the way of reasonable routes to fix this, all of which are likely to be badly received by the very people who are going "goblins in core? GREAT!" Perhaps Paizo has something really cool under their hats, but as it stands they would hold the distinction of being the first core option in a game that I declared¹ GM permission² at my table.

1: As opposed to the rules themselves calling it out. Such as anything marked STOP in Hero.

2: I use five levels: Permitted, GM consultation, (you have to talk to me about it), GM permission, (you have to ask and justify the choice), Special permission, (you have to ask and should expect a no), Banned, (don't even bother asking).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think it's sad that some GMs have such low expectations of their players as to assume from the get-go that they will use goblins as an excuse to play kenders.

I also think it's strange that those same GMs don't realize that players will do that anyway.

I think goblins as a core race is an unusual and unexpected choice, but I trust my players and I'm going to wait and see what they want to do with it.


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MaxAstro wrote:

I think it's sad that some GMs have such low expectations of their players as to assume from the get-go that they will use goblins as an excuse to play kenders.

I also think it's strange that those same GMs don't realize that players will do that anyway.

I think goblins as a core race is an unusual and unexpected choice, but I trust my players and I'm going to wait and see what they want to do with it.

It isn't low expectations, it's realistic expectations. Players will try to do a lot of things, feeling they have explicit permission because it is a core rule doesn't help those shenanigans. Goblins as core gives no benefit but certainly adds the potential for foul play.


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MaxAstro wrote:

I think it's sad that some GMs have such low expectations of their players as to assume from the get-go that they will use goblins as an excuse to play kenders.

I also think it's strange that those same GMs don't realize that players will do that anyway.

I think goblins as a core race is an unusual and unexpected choice, but I trust my players and I'm going to wait and see what they want to do with it.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING.

If you have a player looking at goblins and going, "Yay, I can grief my own party!" your problem isn't goblins.


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MaxAstro wrote:
I think it's sad that some GMs have such low expectations of their players as to assume from the get-go that they will use goblins as an excuse to play kenders.

It's a combination of knowing what kinds of players are out there and that there are also a lot that will look at how the race is described and end up party slime without any intentional malice. There were a lot of very annoying kender players who were all "why are you all mad at me? I'm just playing him the way the book says to."

MaxAstro wrote:
I also think it's strange that those same GMs don't realize that players will do that anyway.

Trust me, there are plenty of players out there who are going to be all "but the rulebook says..." as an excuse¹. That includes players who otherwise wouldn't be a problem.

Are there people who are no problem when they take options that are serious party slime bait? Certainly, I even know a couple that I would trust to play kenders as originally written. That does not mean it is a good idea to give all the ones who will be a problem a RAW license to do it.

1: And even more who will implicitly support them with that (EXP.DEL.) vastly overbroad misunderstanding of the "don't say no" advice.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suppose, then, that it's good thing the iconic goblin is presented as a guy who... ISN'T a toxic party-wrecker, then.

"but the rulebook says" requires the rulebook to actually say things, after all.

Liberty's Edge

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Gnomes are already pretty easy to play as kender/the most annoying and disruptive PC possible. If Goblins are not available peeople inclined to do this will just play a Gnome.

Really, having something not be core because 'some players will use this as an excuse to be a dick' is a profoundly dumb idea. Evil Alignments are, and always have been, core in Pathfinder, as have a host of other excuses, and as anyone who's dealt with people in real life knows, someone can play their Human as a disruptive a&&~!+~ as well...regardless of Alignment.

Disruptive players are certainly a problem, and many will use 'I'm just playing my character' as an excuse...but they can and will do that regardless of what Ancestry, Class, or Alignment they possess. Removing options to try and stop this is just utterly futile and pointless.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Can we stop sullying Mr. Sayre nice canon fiction thread with yet another going-nowhere debate about the wisdom of the decision that enabled said fiction to exist?

Mkaythanx.

Shadow Lodge

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“Goblins are core, get over it”?

I mean, let’s get the edition warriors into a REAL tizzy rather than walk on eggshells.

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