Sending Your Heroes to the Mirrored Moon

Monday, September 24, 2018

The Pathfinder Playtest is roaring along as we move our focus to Part 4, The Mirrored Moon. This adventure sees the return of your characters from Part 1. In the years that have passed, these heroes have grown to be powerful adventurers in their own right, but the mystery that started all those years ago in Keleri's basement has yet to be solved. In Part 4, you'll rejoin them as they continue the quest in Thicketfell, in the faraway River Kingdoms.

Once you have completed your playthrough of Part 4, please remember to take the following surveys. Your data is critical in helping us make the second edition of Pathfinder be the best game it can be!

Player Survey | Game Master Survey | Open Survey

As a reminder, if you have not completed Parts 1, 2, or 3, you still have plenty of time to finish your sessions and get us your survey feedback. The more data we get, the more certain we are of how various parts of the game are performing. I should also note that as we get further into the playtest, some of the goals of each part of the adventure become a bit more extreme. You might play sessions that seem out of balance or somewhat harder than you're used to as we push the system to its limits and beyond. We've endeavored to make sure each part of Doomsday Dawn provides a fun and engaging adventure, but the goals of the test come first. We want to thank all of you for your patience and understanding as we delve deeper and deeper into the system.

All of the Changes in Update 1.3

Today also marks the release of Update 1.3, which promises to deliver a number of substantive changes to your game. Before I launch into the details, why don't you go grab a copy?

So, first and foremost is a revision to the Proficiency and DCs of the game. As of today, if you're untrained in something, your bonus is now equal to your level -4! This change was made to ensure that characters who haven't specialized in a given skill or ability aren't directly competing with those who have made the choice to invest in it. We've also made significant alterations to Table 10-2, Skill DCs by Level and Difficulty. In most cases, we lowered the DC by a point or two (but sometimes by 4 or more at higher levels). We made this change so that players who focus their character choices around a task have a better chance of success and so that this chance of success grows as you do. As a result, we have included errata for all 7 parts of Doomsday Dawn, updating all of the skill DCs across the adventure to reflect this change.

Death and dying receives another revision in this update. After looking at playtest data, we saw a significant change in dying rates and play style due to the way that characters came back from being unconscious. As of this update, we have removed the slowed condition that applied to characters after they were revived, and we've replaced it with a new condition: the wounded condition. This condition doesn't penalize your checks or DCs, but if you fall unconscious again, your dying condition is increased by your wounded condition. This means that while you're not penalized directly for getting up and charging back into the fray, your chance of dying increases the more times you're knocked out in a fight.

To go along with this change, we've also added a new way to use the Medicine skill, allowing you to spend 10 minutes to bandage the wounds of up to six creatures (one of which can be you). Depending on the check, this allows you to heal a significant amount of damage to everyone under your care! The best part is, you don't have to be a cleric to use this ability and it doesn't rely on your magic resources, so you can save those for combat. We made this change so that out-of-combat healing was a bit easier to manage, which allows you to heal up between fights and rely a bit less on the classes that have access to magical healing.

Finally, there are a lot of smaller changes in this update, including revisions to a number of classes, most notably the ranger and the rogue, both of which got some much-needed versatility added to their builds. But there's one other gigantic addition I want to talk about.

Multiclass Archetypes Update

Today we're releasing playtest material for all 12 of the multiclass archetypes, along with some revisions to the existing multiclass archetypes found in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook. These additions expand your range of tools when building new characters. With these changes, you can now play a bard that dabbles in the strange mysteries of the monk, or a barbarian with a sorcerous lineage!

We put all of these archetypes in their own document for ease of reference.

The Future of Resonance

Since the start of the playtest, we have heard a lot of feedback on the resonance system and we have been working hard to come up with a way to make it a better part of the game. Currently, we're looking at ways to use the resonance system just for tracking the items you wear, purely as a replacement for the slot system from Pathfinder First Edition. At the same time, we're looking to add a system that allows you to focus on the magic that your character can utilize to give it a boost in power when you need to, but otherwise allowing you to use it in a simpler way in an emergency. It's a little early to go into too many details, but I will say this: under this new system, you'll always be healed when you drink a healing potion.

While our current plan for the system is still coming together, we know that a change of this size is going to be challenging for us to fully implement before the end of the playtest. But, we do have a way to ensure that you can give it a try before we're done. In the coming weeks we're going to release a special version of the Pathfinder Society Playtest Scenario Raiders of the Shrieking Peak. This adventure is played using pregenerated characters, which allows us to create a conversion to the new system without having to convert the entire game all at once. When this scenario becomes available, we'll be asking everyone to give it a try, and we'll generate a specific survey looking at the new systems to get your feedback.

Well, that's about all for this week! Let us know what you think about these changes in the comments down below. And as always, we thank each and every one of you for participating in the playtest!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

Join the Pathfinder Playtest designers every Friday throughout the playtest on our Twitch Channel to hear all about the process and chat directly with the team.

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Paizo Employee Designer

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shroudb wrote:

i like how Blade of justice is classified as "minor change" when it actually changes a pretty subpar damage ability to a wonderful alternative "tanking" and "damage" ability.

that "minor change" changes an ability that was at best a 2/5 to a solid 4/5 for me.

Sometimes all it takes is a small tweak to radically adjust the power and usefulness of an ability, and sometimes doing that to just one ability can radically adjust an entire character build. It sure does make game design tricky sometimes, but when we get it right, it's also very satisfying.

Paizo Employee Designer

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shroudb wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

Spending a Hero Point as part of heroic recovery actually removes the dying condition. That is easy to miss, and I certainly missed it. Maybe this is not as bad as I first thought.

I can definitely see bards and sorcerers multiclassing into paladin and actually following the code of conduct for that sweet, sweet Channel Life at 8th level. Channel Life is ridiculously good for bards and sorcerers to snatch up.

channel life would require:

paladin dedication
lay on hands
basic level1-2feat
the actual Channel life feat.

Spending every single one of your class feats for channel life is pretty steep price to pay, even if it's really good.

We actually have a bardMCpaladin in my playtest group. The things she has gained from paladin are admittedly excellent and she is an extremely effective character, but what she didn't gain from bard would have also been very useful. I can't really tell for sure which would have made her more of a boon for the party, and that makes me quite happy.


Quandary wrote:
I don't understand why Goblins need special Wolf Mount access, those don't seem equally "Goblin Iconic" as the Goblin Rat-Dogs. This isn't against Rough Rider granting it's bonus to Wolves if you manage to acquire Wolf Mount via some other non-Goblin specific means... But better approach would be non-race-specific means to gain Wolf Mount via Ranger/Druid Class Feat or something.

This update to Rough Rider lets you choose a wolf if you are a paladin/cavalier. And eventually, when Goblins of Golarion is published, it will be updated again for the Goblin Dog animal companion


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Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Dasrak wrote:

Couple of suggestions:

*Treat wounds should use the medium DC based on the highest level of the targets. This doesn't make a difference when healing party members, but could be significant when healing NPC's.

*You buffed the read aura spell to match the change to the identify magic skill actions, but not the mending spell to match the faster repair times.

+1 to Treat wounds being based on the target's level rather than your own.

I understand the reasoning behind using the medic's own level, but from an aesthetic perspective, it feels nicer that it's easier for a high level medic to easily heal low-level NPCs, or a particularly difficult challenge to perform surgery on an injured, but otherwise powerful Dragon.

I understand the DC in a game perspective, but I don't get it ingame.

Why is it harder to heal someone that took an arrow at level 10 that is was at level 1 ?

taking the same arrow at 4 and at 10 would be equal damage dealt.

you can argue, and i think a lot of tables will allow (i would) lowering your class level for treating wounds:

lower DC but lower Healing.

The increase in DC scales much lower than the increase in healing you get.

So, while level 4 treat wounds may treat 1 arrow (4*2 con mod=8), a level 10 treat wounds would treat 2.5 such arrows (20 hp healed)


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Hrm. I notice that the character sheet doesn't seem to have been updated as expected. Is that taking longer than planned? Or did it just get missed with the more major updates?


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shroudb wrote:
i like how Blade of justice is classified as "minor change" when it actually changes a pretty subpar damage ability to a wonderful alternative "tanking" and "damage" ability.

Agreed, and maybe not quite as impressive (perhaps could be rolled into vanilla Hunt Target), but the Monster Hunter free Recall Knowledge change is move in right direction.


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Thoughts on Multiclassing:

Why does Paladin Dedication grant proficiency in all armors when everyone else only increases existing proficiency?

Multiclass feats granting straight HP increases feels wrong to me. Seems like a tanky character who wants as much HP as possible is now forced to pick up some multiclass.

1/day abilities: I hate these with a passion. By my count, we've got 4 of these now, Barbarian Rage, Fighter Attack of Opportunity, Paladin Retributive Strike, and Ranger Hunt Target. Either grant the class feature or give nothing, don't clutter up a character sheet with 1/day abilities that don't feel rewarding. Especially considering that most of these don't even make much thematic sense, ("I'm a barbarian that can only get really mad once before I need a nap in between.")


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These changes are awesome. Well done, Paizo.


Is it just me or does any wounded value greater than 1 have no mechanical impact beyond just wounded 1, (except for the case of killing you outright, or if you have Diehard)?

Because, currently wounded 1 causes you to go to dying 2 if knocked to 0 HP, then to dying 4 if you fail a save, where wounded 2 causes you to go to dying 3, then dying 6 if you fail a save. However dying 4 and dying 6 are the same levels of dead.

Is this correct, or am I missing something. Because I can see the case for either way, as treat wounds is an easy way to get rid of it entirely, but on the other hand, this seems a bit odd.

Secondly, if you are wounded 2+, do you completely lose the wounded trait if you rest for 10 minutes at full HP or are treated by Treat Wounds? Or is it just decremented by 1? Appears to be the former to me, so given all of that, why not just have wounded be a binary condition, that increases your dying condition by 1 each time you gain or increase the dying condition?

(Also, as an addendum, I'm unclear as to what the criteria for removing the wounded trait is, as Treat Wounds doesn't list it as an effect in success, except maybe in the "you treat the patient's wounds" but that feels more like flavor text to me, when most other things seem to specify the exact mechanics of what they do. And the part in wounded, just says "if someone attends to you with Treat Wounds", but doesn't specify "if someone successfully attends to you with Treat Wounds," so is that just independent of success? Because that seems odd to me)

Paizo Employee Designer

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Cyouni wrote:
Snickersnax wrote:
Jason Buhlman wrote
Quote:

In most cases, we lowered the DC by a point or two (but sometimes by 4 or more at higher levels). We made this change so that players who focus their character choices around a task have a better chance of success and so that this chance of success grows as you do. As a result, we have included errata for all 7 parts of Doomsday Dawn, updating all of the skill DCs across the adventure to reflect this change.

Somehow the DCs for The Mirrored Moon have increased in some cases by ALOT.

page 50 - the DC 25 perception check has been INCREASED to a DC 30. The DC 23 survival check has INCREASED to a DC 27.

page 52- DC 26 perception INCREASED to DC 31.

page 52 DC 27 diplomacy increased to DC 29.

page 53 DC 23 perception increased to DC 26.

page 55 DC 28 perception increased to DC 31

I'm not sure how what you are saying you're doing (lowering DCs by a point or two) matches what you actually did - Raised DCs by between 2 and 5.

Looking at it, it's because most of those (except the diplomacy) are doable by the whole party with no real consequence for failure.

It's probably as you and shroudb have guessed. Basically, some of the DCs in the adventure weren't necessarily following the old guidelines either, and the categories changed what they actually mean too with new wording, so Stephen did an epic deep-dive of the adventure using our new definitions and not based on what the numbers were before.


Mark Seifter wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

Spending a Hero Point as part of heroic recovery actually removes the dying condition. That is easy to miss, and I certainly missed it. Maybe this is not as bad as I first thought.

I can definitely see bards and sorcerers multiclassing into paladin and actually following the code of conduct for that sweet, sweet Channel Life at 8th level. Channel Life is ridiculously good for bards and sorcerers to snatch up.

channel life would require:

paladin dedication
lay on hands
basic level1-2feat
the actual Channel life feat.

Spending every single one of your class feats for channel life is pretty steep price to pay, even if it's really good.

We actually have a bardMCpaladin in my playtest group. The things she has gained from paladin are admittedly excellent and she is an extremely effective character, but what she didn't gain from bard would have also been very useful. I can't really tell for sure which would have made her more of a boon for the party, and that makes me quite happy.

not arguing that it isn't worth the feats (i personally wouldn't go that deep just for that, but that's just me). But, for bard specifically, I find it hard to even skip a single class feat.

All seem excellent.

for bard multiclassing, I would personally almost always go for Sorc now. Sorc dedication is worth more than the class feat that grant 2 cantrips, and then you can pick up arcane striker that you can activate alongside inspire heroics and probably also get a metamagic on the way there (since bards seem to lack those)

in general, i'm pretty happy with how "multiclass" works in pf2.

imo it's just a character path like (using rogue as an example) "divine rogue, arcane trickster, swashbuckler, thug, etc"

you lose class features to gain class features, like the old archetypes.

Paizo Employee Designer

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shroudb wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

Spending a Hero Point as part of heroic recovery actually removes the dying condition. That is easy to miss, and I certainly missed it. Maybe this is not as bad as I first thought.

I can definitely see bards and sorcerers multiclassing into paladin and actually following the code of conduct for that sweet, sweet Channel Life at 8th level. Channel Life is ridiculously good for bards and sorcerers to snatch up.

channel life would require:

paladin dedication
lay on hands
basic level1-2feat
the actual Channel life feat.

Spending every single one of your class feats for channel life is pretty steep price to pay, even if it's really good.

We actually have a bardMCpaladin in my playtest group. The things she has gained from paladin are admittedly excellent and she is an extremely effective character, but what she didn't gain from bard would have also been very useful. I can't really tell for sure which would have made her more of a boon for the party, and that makes me quite happy.

not arguing that it isn't worth the feats (i personally wouldn't go that deep just for that, but that's just me). But, for bard specifically, I find it hard to even skip a single class feat.

All seem excellent.

for bard multiclassing, I would personally almost always go for Sorc now. Sorc dedication is worth more than the class feat that grant 2 cantrips, and then you can pick up arcane striker that you can activate alongside inspire heroics and probably also get a metamagic on the way there (since bards seem to lack those)

in general, i'm pretty happy with how "multiclass" works in pf2.

imo it's just a character path like (using rogue as an example) "divine rogue, arcane trickster, swashbuckler, thug, etc"

you lose class features to gain class features, like the old archetypes.

Yeah, bard/sorcerer is also excellent. There have definitely been times when what she got from paladin has been outstanding, and other times when, say, inspire competence would have been better, and so on. I'm pretty happy with where we are in terms of the current bard feats and build options.

Silver Crusade

Our group is nowhere near starting part 4 (we're playing on the Paizo boards, and were delayed by the website issues). We're currently on part 2, fighting the POUS.

POUS:
Porcupine of Unusual Size — none of us came close to making the DC 22 Nature check to recognize the manticore quills!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tholomyes wrote:

Is it just me or does any wounded value greater than 1 have no mechanical impact beyond just wounded 1, (except for the case of killing you outright, or if you have Diehard)?

Because, currently wounded 1 causes you to go to dying 2 if knocked to 0 HP, then to dying 4 if you fail a save, where wounded 2 causes you to go to dying 3, then dying 6 if you fail a save. However dying 4 and dying 6 are the same levels of dead.

Is this correct, or am I missing something. Because I can see the case for either way, as treat wounds is an easy way to get rid of it entirely, but on the other hand, this seems a bit odd.

Secondly, if you are wounded 2+, do you completely lose the wounded trait if you rest for 10 minutes at full HP or are treated by Treat Wounds? Or is it just decremented by 1? Appears to be the former to me, so given all of that, why not just have wounded be a binary condition, that increases your dying condition by 1 each time you gain or increase the dying condition?

(Also, as an addendum, I'm unclear as to what the criteria for removing the wounded trait is, as Treat Wounds doesn't list it as an effect in success, except maybe in the "you treat the patient's wounds" but that feels more like flavor text to me, when most other things seem to specify the exact mechanics of what they do. And the part in wounded, just says "if someone attends to you with Treat Wounds", but doesn't specify "if someone successfully attends to you with Treat Wounds," so is that just independent of success? Because that seems odd to me)

Wounded 2 kills you outright on a crit to 0. Wounded 3 kills you outright on any hit that drops you to 0. Saves not allowed.


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Question: Does Brute Striker apply to weapons considered simple due to racial feats?


shroudb wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I'd like an Alchemist talent that allows an Alchemist to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Medicine.

that should be baseline. At WORST a skill feat. Certainly not a class feat.

Also: Monk dedication seems super hosed:
you basically gain: Powerful fists (a die increase in your unarmed) and 1 skill trained.

Also, I want to point out, that a Cha class with dedication Alchemist has more RP than a full blown Alchemist...

Agreed on Alchemist Medicine and Monk Dedication, I don't know why at least partial speed boost and Unarmed Defence proficiency increase isn't on the table, and those should not be that hard to scale (based on # of Monk Feats?), even if always behind full Monk level.

Honestly I wouldn't worry too much about Bard/Sorc with Alchemist Dedication getting too many RP, that whole system is being changed and Alchemist may very well have no unique RP mechanic, base class or archetype dedication.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Snickersnax wrote:
Jason Buhlman wrote
Quote:

In most cases, we lowered the DC by a point or two (but sometimes by 4 or more at higher levels). We made this change so that players who focus their character choices around a task have a better chance of success and so that this chance of success grows as you do. As a result, we have included errata for all 7 parts of Doomsday Dawn, updating all of the skill DCs across the adventure to reflect this change.

Somehow the DCs for The Mirrored Moon have increased in some cases by ALOT.

I'm not sure how what you are saying you're doing (lowering DCs by a point or two) matches what you actually did - Raised DCs by between 2 and 5.

Looking at it, it's because most of those (except the diplomacy) are doable by the whole party with no real consequence for failure.
It's probably as you and shroudb have guessed. Basically, some of the DCs in the adventure weren't necessarily following the old guidelines either, and the categories changed what they actually mean too with new wording, so Stephen did an epic deep-dive of the adventure using our new definitions and not based on what the numbers were before.

The problem is that most of these DCs gate the options for resolving encounter outcomes. By having them very high it effectively closes down options to adventuring groups unless they have extraordinary dice rolls.

I believe this is especially true of the page 50 changes due to its indirect influence on

Spoiler:
adventure time and research points

But I'm sure we'll find out quickly since this is the adventure being tested in the next couple of weeks.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm liking everything but the Skill DCs.

The Skill DCs are...odd. As mentioned, many in Mirrored Moon (and Doomsday Dawn in general, actually) have gone up. By a lot. In a way that actually doesn't seem to follow the chart very well.

More generally, they seem to have gone down a lot less than was implied in the Twitch Stream, which is not ideal. Easy/Trivial have dropped by 2 (as befits the greater Untrained penalty), but most High/Hard DCs have remained unchanged (or have occasionally gone down a single point...two points at higher levels, I suppose...but at lower levels some have gone up a point).

Incredible and higher DCs also seem to assume a Feat like Virtuosic Performance, which is a bit unreasonable given that such Feats only even exist for two skills.

I'm less than pleased with all this, as might be imagined from my post history. I mean...making checks at 9th level you still need a (possibly impossible to get) +2 Skill Item and absolutely optimal stats to have a 60% chance at a high DC check. That's...really unimpressive and un-fun for 9th level characters.

Yes, at 20th level you succeed on a 4 if perfectly optimized now, but almost all the increase is on the very high levels.

Let's do a by-level breakdown (ignoring Virtuosic Performer, since the equivalent is only available for two skills):

At 1st, a completely optimized character succeeds at High DC checks on a 10. 55% chance.

At 5th, a completely optimized character still succeeds at High DC checks on a 10 (assuming a +1 Item). Still only a 55% chance.

At 9th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on a 9 (assuming a +2 Item). Now a 60% chance.

At 13th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on a 7 (assuming a +3 Item). Now a 70% chance.

At 17th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on an 6 (assuming a +4 Item). Now a 75% chance.

That improvement is way too backloaded. To the point many characters won't even see it at all. Your improvement is entirely item-driven and mostly doesn't even kick in until the latter half of the game. Ouch.


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Data Lore wrote:
Question: Does Brute Striker apply to weapons considered simple due to racial feats?

I think "yes" is how this should work, but by RAW it doesn't since, for example, "Weapon Familiarity" reads as:

Quote:
For the purpose of proficiencies, you treat martial elf weapons as simple weapons

and Brute Striker is not a proficiency.


Thats a shame. Hmm, Horsechopper...

Exo-Guardians

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I may be a minority here but I actually like the inclusion of 1/day abilities for multiclasses, I think it stems from a different narrative view of classes particularly Barbarian and Fighter.

Using Rage once per day for someone who was not raised in the tribal environment of a barbarian makes sense, it's not a driving force for them, sure they may have adopted a totem later in life, but a true Barbarian was shaped by that totem, molded by the spirit it symbolizes and focuses their very being into the spirit of their totem when they rage. A multiclass, say a Monk, does not have that same experience, for them it is merely a brief moment of primal Rage, a small push over an edge of fury they didn't know existed within themselves.

For a Fighter multiclass it's simply training, a Fighter trains rigorously to master combat, it is their very life, if a Wizard suddenly decides to take up the sword and fight he'll not even come close to the level of skill even a first level fighter has, someone who has trained all their life to punish mistakes can eventually do so with confidence, and nearly every time. A wizard just learning how to fight will not have the surety of his reflexes. Think of it like a fighting game, at some point when learning a character you figure out how to do some of the things, but without dedicated investment you'll never come close to a true master, let alone someone who constantly practices.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm liking everything but the Skill DCs.

The Skill DCs are...odd. As mentioned, many in Mirrored Moon (and Doomsday Dawn in general, actually) have gone up. By a lot. In a way that actually doesn't seem to follow the chart very well.

More generally, they seem to have gone down a lot less than was implied in the Twitch Stream, which is not ideal. Easy/Trivial have dropped by 2 (as befits the greater Untrained penalty), but most High/Hard DCs have remained unchanged (or have occasionally gone down a single point...two points at higher levels, I suppose...but at lower levels some have gone up a point).

Incredible and higher DCs also seem to assume a Feat like Virtuosic Performance, which is a bit unreasonable given that such Feats only even exist for two skills.

I'm less than pleased with all this, as might be imagined from my post history. I mean...making checks at 9th level you still need a (possibly impossible to get) +2 Skill Item and absolutely optimal stats to have a 60% chance at a high DC check. That's...really unimpressive and un-fun for 9th level characters.

Yes, at 20th level you succeed on a 4 if perfectly optimized now, but almost all the increase is on the very high levels.

Let's do a by-level breakdown (ignoring Virtuosic Performer, since the equivalent is only available for two skills):

At 1st, a completely optimized character succeeds at High DC checks on a 10. 55% chance.

At 5th, a completely optimized character still succeeds at High DC checks on a 10 (assuming a +1 Item). Still only a 55% chance.

At 9th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on a 9 (assuming a +2 Item). Now a 60% chance.

At 13th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on a 7 (assuming a +3 Item). Now a 70% chance.

At 17th, a completely optimized character now succeeds at High DC checks on an 6 (assuming a +4 Item). Now a 75% chance.

That improvement is way too backloaded. To the point many characters won't even see it at...

it's good that you did a /4 level comparison.

we see, that at 4 level increments our chances, when optimized, are 55%/55%/60%/70%/75%

this points to me 2 outliers:
early on there is not an increase in a step, later on there's 2 increased in a step.

if we streamline this to 55/60/65/70/75 we reach the same ballpark Paizo wants, but have a more smooth transition and better progression feeling in general.


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graystone wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
also still wish that Alch could do med with INT. what with medicine (as opposed to heal) being a science
What would be nice is a feat to do that and allow alchemist kits to be used for medicine.

This.

+ making the Alch Kit free at character creation.
+Make the kit usable only by that specific alchemist
+The alchemist can "wear" the kit resulting in the kit being - bulk. but otherwise when not worn 2bulk.

All that together and I'd be a pretty darn happy camper with regards to the Alchemist, medicine and Alch Kits in general.

Doktor Weasel wrote:

[

Several classes could use a good rethinking, also a loosening up of class restrictions of play-styles. The other main class I have in mind is Paladin, where they've lost a lot of their holy might and the idea for them seems to be entirely based on being heavily armored and defensive, which I think is the exact wrong way to go.

Honestly.. I sort of almost feel like the Paladin Class should be changed to Guardian.

and then the Paladin concept+ all its stuff should be a "prestige multiclass" like pirate and that pretty cool sounding female only shield one that I can't remember the name of at the moment.
Sorta like the idea of building a Paladin out of any class, as paladin to me, is mostly restrictions +holy vengence or light holy healing.
All of which could be fairly easy Archetype Feats that could be vague enough to really apply to almost any classes' action with the right tuning.

I for one, know I'll almost never play a paladin but I love the defensive stuff. But. I just know that I , as a player, dislike the structure restctions.


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Charon Onozuka wrote:

Thoughts on Multiclassing:

Why does Paladin Dedication grant proficiency in all armors when everyone else only increases existing proficiency?

I commented on that in the Feedback:Multiclassing thread, and how "excess" is paired with the "lack" of no Martial Weapons (although you do gain Deity Favored Weapon). My suggestion was to make that a choice, Martial Weapons (and minimal +1 Armor Tier) OR +2 Armor Tier proficiency. (which may mean for Zero Armor Proficiency base Classes they may still only get Medium + Shield).

I also mentioned Paladin & Rogue should both always grant Simple Weapon Proficiency and IMHO Rogue should also grant hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword.


Quandary:
The current dedications seem fine to me. Those changes may help some corner cases but generally add un-needed complexity in most cases.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:

channel life would require:

paladin dedication
lay on hands
basic level1-2feat
the actual Channel life feat.

Paladin Dedication is giving proficiencies. Deity's Domain and Healing Touch are still expanding your Spell Points by 1 each, which is very good for Channel Life.


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Quote:
55%/55%/60%/70%/75%

Those success rates still feel a bit low to me. But, you gotta figure in stuff like assists or bard help or guidance or whatever.

Still, I would hope for something like 60/65/70/75/80 for the optimized dude since not everyone is gonna be optimized.

But maybe Paizo is future proofing since they know that PCs get OP as splat books come out.


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Data Lore wrote:
Quandary wrote:

I commented on that in the Feedback:Multiclassing thread, and how "excess" is paired with the "lack" of no Martial Weapons (although you do gain Deity Favored Weapon). My suggestion was to make that a choice, Martial Weapons (and minimal +1 Armor Tier) OR +2 Armor Tier proficiency. (which may mean for Zero Armor Proficiency base Classes they may still only get Medium + Shield).

I also mentioned Paladin & Rogue should both always grant Simple Weapon Proficiency and IMHO Rogue should also grant hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword.

The current dedications seem fine to me. Those changes may help some corner cases but generally add un-needed complexity in most cases.

AFAIK that is beneficial to 8/10 classes (alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, monk, rogue, sorc, and wizard).

Fighter don't count because they can't possibly gain anything from Paladin Weapon/Armor proficiencies.
(actually, should Paladin Dedication treat (Exotic) Deific Weapons as Martial, to use higher Fighter Proficiency? Cleric Dedication too?)
Anyhow, Simple & Rogue Weapons seem basic IMHO.


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So Sneak Attack calls out "agile or finesse melee weapon" and "agile or finesse unarmed attack" which suggests to me that these are different so unarmed attacks are not weapons, hence wolf jaw and tiger claw attacks cannot benefit from Finesse Striker.

I guess that's good since otherwise a rogue with the monk dedication could out-monk the monk in some ways.


Colette Brunel wrote:
shroudb wrote:

channel life would require:

paladin dedication
lay on hands
basic level1-2feat
the actual Channel life feat.
Paladin Dedication is giving proficiencies. Deity's Domain and Healing Touch are still expanding your Spell Points by 1 each, which is very good for Channel Life.

i didn't say that they were "dead feats" just a REALLY HEAVY investment to basically get 0 class feats until level 10


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A few more steps in the right direction...

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there all,

As you might have noticed, I missed that the DCs for part of Doomsday Dawn had been rebalanced and actually went up due to the fact that they were not very challenging to players of that adventure. Sorry if anyone felt misled.

Also, I just cleaned up a post or two with some pretty hostile tones. I get that folk might not agree with our changes, but lets keep it civil.


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So given that lots of people can get monk feats now, not just monks, should there be a tag for "this only functions when not wearing armor" or is it intended that Irorian Paladins in half-plate should be able to Wind Step or make Flying Kicks?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

One of the big problems with Resonance is how you started having it act as an additional charge for Staffs and Wands - basically causing double the record keeping. Here is a suggestion for an alternative.

First: Resonance doesn't impact charges at all. Charges are their own thing and you never need use Resonance to use a Wand or Staff that has been Invested.

Second: The number of Resonance you need to Invest a Staff is equal to the number of Spells the Staff can cast. You can have more than one Staff Invested, but each additional Staff requires +2 Resonance. Staffs have the same number of Charges as previously in the rules and will recharge as per previous rules.

The number of Resonance you need to Invest a Wand starts at 1. For each additional Wand, that number doubles; investing in three Wands would cost 7 Resonance, investing in four Wands would cost 15 Resonance, etc. Wands have a flat 15 Charges and do not recharge. Once a Wand runs out of Charges, it chars and becomes worthless.

-----------

The end result is that you can have someone with a couple of Staffs and Wands, but this significantly reduces the amount of Resonance they have for other things. Basically you'll have high-level Wizards or Clerics with multiple wands or staves, but even then it won't be nearly to the same level as in the first Pathfinder where you could be running around with a dozen Wands, most of which never get used, and three staffs, one of which the player forgot they even own.


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While I do agree that changes to the skill system were necessary, increasing the untrained penalty to -4 I don't think is a great solution. So I have this thought, but life has gotten in the way of reading through the forums as thoroughly as I'd like, and if this has been shot down or repeated endlessly I apologize. So here goes:

Has the idea of the proficiency ranks acting not only as gates to new abilities, but caps as well been considered? You could increase the proficiency every level as you do now, but once you reach a certain level, it stops going up until you increase your rank. For example, untrained users may only be able to increase their proficiency rating to be equal to 0, effectively removing any penalty for it. Once you become trained, the cap increases to say +5, not counting any ability score mods or item bonuses. It wouldn't matter if you were level 5 or level 20, you would still only get that +5. Once your rank goes up again to Expert, your cap increases to say +10, and you automatically increase up to your cap or your level, whichever is lower.

Caps
Untrained-+0
Trained-+5
Expert-+10
Master-+15
Legendary-+20

Overall, this lets someone who has spent their resources increasing their skill to the maximum to feel powerful and skillful, while still allowing a natural progression of scores.

Rant over, point made, and if anyone has a better idea than this one, I am keen to hear it, and thank you for reading.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

correct me if I'm wrong but is there no way to get dex to damage other than primary class rogue?


Tangent101 wrote:
One of the big problems with Resonance is how you started having it act as an additional charge for Staffs and Wands - basically causing double the record keeping. Here is a suggestion for an alternative.

Pretty sure the Devs already indicated the current Resonance system will not stand, particulary re: consumables, and if consumbles don't use Res I don't see Staves using it per activation even if they use it for Investing them. So I don't see much point worrying about things based on present Resonance rules.


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X2Brute wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong but is there no way to get dex to damage other than primary class rogue?

Thats right. Thats exactly how it should be too.


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User_Undefined wrote:
Why does the Monk dedication list becoming trained in unarmed attacks as a bonus when everyone is already trained in them?

I think the thing to note here is that Unarmed Attacks does not just mean the Simple Weapon Fist. It also applies to all the various Unarmed Attacks both now and in the future, and some of those may wind up being Martial or even Exotic. And of course, the proficiency you use for Unarmed Attacks also applies to a whole slew of proper weapons if you take Monastic Weaponry.

Dark Archive

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So the deal with regards to Double Slice vs Twin Takedown is this:

Double Slice takes 2 Actions to use and allows you to make 2 Strikes. The second takes no multiple attack penalty but still counts towards it for further attacks that turn. If the second attack isn't made with an Agile weapon you take a -2 penalty, and you total all damage dealt by the two Strikes before applying any weakness or resistance. While this is a great feat, the 2-action cost means that you won't benefit from Hunt Target on the round you use it unless you're Quick, since your two actions are likely to be spent either moving and attacking or using Double Slice. That means TWF Rangers won't usually have a use for their primary class feature until Round 2.

Twin Takedown, by comparison, takes 1 Action to use, can only be used against your Hunted Target, and takes the multiple-attack penalty on the second attack in addition to the -2 Circumstantial penalty if the second weapon isn't Agile. While this looks bad initially, since the second attack takes a penalty that it didn't before, the penalty is only a -3 with an Agile weapon and you still have 1 action left to work with. That means you can Hunt Target, Step/Stride, and Twin Takedown for two attacks, or Hunt Target, Twin Takedown, and Strike again at -8 (main hand) or -6 (off-hand).

You basically take a -3 in exchange for better action economy, which works better with Hunt Target at all levels and gives the player more flexibility in battle. Whether it actually decreases damage is something I'll have to run math on first, but the added flexibility is probably worth the trade.


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Double Slice obviously outperforms Twin Takedown if they're the only attack actions you use during your turn, but Twin Takedown + Strike is better than just Double Slice.

Fun fact: You can now multiclass Fighter to pick up Double Slice. Then you can use Double Slice and Twin Takedown together to get a pseudo-haste effect as early as level 4 (4 attacks in a turn).


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm very happy that the Elven Curve Blade is no longer a strictly substandard weapon choice for a rogue. I can now play that character (who is naturally a feinting scoundrel).

Kind of funny how Rangers have flurry now, too.

Regarding the new multiclass archetypes, for a rogue multiclassing monk do tiger claw or wolf jaw attacks count as "an agile or finesse one-handed melee weapon"? How can I tell? Rogues getting dex-to-damage on a d8 attack with which you can eventually flurry might be somewhat unreasonable.

The Monk class section has a table listing the weapon traits of all of the unarmed attacks they get. I think all of them except for Dragon Tail and the Mountain one are agile and finesse. And in general I think they're all considered one-handed weapons like Fist is.


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One thing I note is there seems to be no way currently for a Multiclass Sorcerer to get Spontaneous Heightening. Combining that with the small number of spells known you get as a multiclass Sorc, and the fact that at level 16+ a multiclass Bard could potentially get 4 Spont Heightens per day (the Feat 8 Additional Heightening feat has no prerequisites and explicitly says you can pick up to 4 spontaneous heightening spells a day) it really draws attention to just how limiting that "cast only at the level you know the spell" can be. Especially when this limitation is most harsh on the class that's otherwise seemingly all about flexibility.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
I do have a question about resonance in the playtest. It's going away in it's current form of being used to power items, thankfully. But the question is, should we still be using it in the playtest barring a full update document? I'd assume so, considering we won't have the full details. But It seems a bit strange to still be testing a system that is going away.

I think it's because they still want certain types of feedback from the higher levels where both resonance and magic items are more plentiful so as to have more complete feedback on the holes in the current system to result in a better fix.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

As you might have noticed, I missed that the DCs for part of Doomsday Dawn had been rebalanced and actually went up due to the fact that they were not very challenging to players of that adventure. Sorry if anyone felt misled.

Also, I just cleaned up a post or two with some pretty hostile tones. I get that folk might not agree with our changes, but lets keep it civil.

Thanks for clearing that up Jason. I'm looking forward to see how it plays out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Data Lore wrote:
X2Brute wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong but is there no way to get dex to damage other than primary class rogue?
Thats right. Thats exactly how it should be too.

not say... multiclass archetype rogue?


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X2Brute wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
X2Brute wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong but is there no way to get dex to damage other than primary class rogue?
Thats right. Thats exactly how it should be too.
not say... multiclass archetype rogue?

Nope.

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