Undead Threats

I'm super glad the list is up - my local "draft" group is back on schedule (a little later than we'd like, but still doable, I think). Thank you for posting that here, Sonicmixer!

One thing I just saw from Mark Moreland has me slightly bummed, though:

As for the setlist, Jeff's post is accurate save for one change that occurred late in the production process and wasn't reflected on internal documents. The ankou had to be cut from the set after it was too late to replace it with something else. So the set list as posted is correct if you remove that figure from it. We are working with WizKids to get the figure added to a future set, as a lot of work has already gone into sculpting and setting paint masters for it.

The ankou was one of the items that made me perk up when I saw the list. Ah well, hopefully some day.

That is VERY odd.
That would mean there are only 11 different large minis in the set, which would be a first.
It also means that the Ankou would probably have been the last large rare & that it will be replaced by an additional dungeon dressing?

Between the two Incentives coming in two boxes and this, Wizkids really seems to be dropping the ball on this set.

As it is only 2 weeks to subscribers getting their cases & 3 weeks until street date, i'd like to see a few actual minis pictures.

In the past Wizkids did send out a brick to one or two online reviewers...

Mark,

Can you please pass along the source book information for two pieces in the Jungle Of Despair set:

#36 - Human Ranger
#37 - Dwarf Explorer

I'm looking for the name of the book and, if possible, the page with the stats and/or illustration.

The Dwarf Explorer has been discovered on Deviant Art, but not the corresponding Paizo sourcebook.

Thank you so much in advance.

**And thanks to everyone else that looked and was able to help discover the other source pages. It's been such a huge help!!**

I must say I’m disappointed by the removal of a large without replacement, especially the ankou, which was rare I assume. Combine this with the increase in cost for the incentives (which are still good value under the sub mind you) and I find myself actually questioning my sub. Will wait until I get this case and decide based on the final quality of the minis.

I can’t help but feel that WizKids have focussed a lot more attention to the dnd lines, so many sets coming that people have requested here and been told won’t float, like the spell effects or the huge minis. Even appears the DND line gets a frogemoth first, wouldn’t be surprised if huge elementals made it to the mad mage set as well.

I must say I’m disappointed by the removal of a large without replacement, especially the ankou, which was rare I assume. Combine this with the increase in cost for the incentives (which are still good value under the sub mind you) and I find myself actually questioning my sub. Will wait until I get this case and decide based on the final quality of the minis.

I can’t help but feel that WizKids have focussed a lot more attention to the dnd lines, so many sets coming that people have requested here and been told won’t float, like the spell effects or the huge minis. Even appears the DND line gets a frogemoth first, wouldn’t be surprised if huge elementals made it to the mad mage set as well.

I suspect it’s down to volume, although the D&D line has more variant sculpts (identical except for weapon and so on..). Perhaps the resulting reduction in costs allows for more plastic per set (and hence large/huge minis).

I must say I’m disappointed by...clipped by me for space.

For me the issue is the future. I've got no problem remaining a Battles subscriber up through Ruins Of Lastwall. As I said in a previous post, Paizo has earned my trust as far as quality goes. And actual set content usually doesn't disappoint me, either. Besides, it will be the last set of Pathfinder Battles for 1.0, if I'm not mistaken. I mean...I might as well hang on.

The issues we've had will end up playing a role in whether I continue my relationship with Paizo as a whole as they make the transition into Pathfinder 2.0. For example, what will the Pathfinder Battles sets look like? All new versions of creatures that make up the backbone of fantasy, like Giants, Trolls, and Orcs? Will we get yet another Manticore? (For the record, I love the look of the Kingmaker Manticore). Or will we get a few new creatures from the PF2 Bestiary 1 and the rest be from the PF1 Bestiaries 2-6? Or will we see a return to direct Adventure Path-themed sets? I'm not even sure I know myself what I want the final answer to be. But...it's going to matter.

There are a few things I think I will need to see. Huge miniatures, for one. With the power and excitement of releasing an all-new version of their game, surely it is time to introduce a steady-ish stream of Huge-sized miniatures into the ranks of the Battles line. The lack of them--regardless of reason--is a glaring eye sore on what I would otherwise call a very successful run of miniatures.

Will we continue to see more Dungeon Dressing? It does seem popular. But as it is I'd still rather have the 8 spots for "repeat" miniatures. If it continues, will it consist more of pieces I can actually use, like spell effects? Or even better, pieces that can double up as actual creatures, such as Kingmaker's Gargoyle piece? I feel like at least those present some sort of a compromise. But I've got no real use for things like Braziers.

Obviously what matters most is how the actual system of PF2 turns out. This weekend marks the first time I'll actually have a chance to Playtest. Up until now, I've only had a chance to look things over. This isn't the place to get in a real discussion about that, but to sum it up I'm not overly enthused from what I've read. It all sort of reminds me of the Star Wars movie Solo. It's not inherently bad, it just seems like something created that nobody really asked for or wanted in the first place. Who knows? Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I guess what I'm saying is I feel like I'm in complete unfamiliar territory with Paizo right now. I've given so much time and plenty of money to them. And it's been a very good ride, no doubt. But now it feels like there is this cloud of fog hanging over the future. It feels almost surreal, really.

To be fair, I know that some of it is perception. Am I making a mountain out of a few mole hills? Besides checking on my order status, 90% of my time spent on this website over the years has been spent on the Battles Preview blogs. As a DM, I mostly run Pathfinder. PF1 is great because I can toss out chunks of the system that are unnecessary and bog down character build creativity, like Power Attack, and many of the other Pathfinder Feat taxes. But the world they've created, Golarion, is extremely rich and easily trumps the main competitors, as I see it. Their monthly-ish sourcebooks have been a great resource. Even when I run campaigns in my own worlds I create, I'm constantly using characters, creatures and story points I rip from the Pathfinder books.

And so with little need to come here besides to get hyped for the Battles line, have I put too much emphasis on things like multi-week intervals of missed previews? Or the website being down for so long? Or even mechanical issues like still not being able to use PayPal to directly purchase store credit? (Which is an immediate transaction; I do understand why PayPal can't be used for subscriptions).

I understand that outside of some extended customer service issues, it is pretty much all hands on deck for the Playtest. And to be fair, that is probably how it should be. But I can't help but feel, at least a little bit, like I'm floating in a forgotten stream of consciousness.

[...]
I guess what I'm saying is I feel like I'm in complete unfamiliar territory with Paizo right now. I've given so much time and plenty of money to them. And it's been a very good ride, no doubt. But now it feels like there is this cloud of fog hanging over the future. It feels almost surreal, really.
[...]
And so with little need to come here besides to get hyped for the Battles line, have I put too much emphasis on things like multi-week intervals of missed previews? Or the website being down for so long?
[...]

It was, quite frankly, a bloody stupid idea to change the apperance and functioning of the site at almost the same time as starting the Playtest.

This set looks like ok enough to not cancel my subscribtion, but the last set had me sort out more than 8 large, which is my personal, arbitrary threshhold for "disappointment".
If this one hits similar numbers I'm not canceling only because Ruins Of Lastwall is the last PF1 set: Might as well roll all the way.

To keep my subscription after that I had better be impressed with what I get.

@Mark & the Paizo crew:

What's up with this blog?

Seriously, i understand that if you have to go to conventions or to promote the Kingmaker computer game, that leaves less or no time to do the Battles miniatures previews, but it's getting ridiculous, sorry.

I feel that at this point Paizo is putting too much manpower into PF 2.0, which i feel will fail to be a best-seller as big as expected.

There are no new Starfinder hardcovers announced through may 2019, despite the fact that it is the #2 selling rpg in northamerica after D&D 5e according to Icv2.com.

Please return to your old reliability asap & please try to find another minis manufacturer than "Ninja Division" (a company that didn't even exist before the Starfinder Kickstarter) for making minis for that great game.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah, i suspect ill hang on until Ruins of which, as you say Pigraven is most likely the last of the first ed sets. Like you ill be waiting to see how things change in 2e to decide my future. Ive been a sub since the first AP, i’m undecided about 2e having playtested some of the stuff. My group is certainly split, half feel they could get on board with the new edition, half do not (but thats not unusual).

I hope the look of the 2e citters doesn’t change too much, certainly hope they don’t change the sizes like 5e did on too many, although i do like the idea of reducing colossal and gargantuan creatures since this increases the chances of a mini getting made.

These look really great; however, sadly the difference between digital sculpts (these previews) and finalized products is vast, and not in a good way. I've been sorely disappointed in the latest sets; it's almost sad to compare them to older sets such as Rise of the Runelords or Wrath of the Righteous. I think the problems started to show back when Legends of Golarion came out; some minis were outright atrocious, and although the quality is (slightly) better now, I still feel it's not worth my money anymore.

I mean, most of the details of otherise great sculpts are lost under a thick coat of paint, and drybushing is no longer obviously used even on huge or gargantuan minis? And yet the price has gone up while the quality has gone down.

Paizo, what has happened?

16 days to release and Wizkids don't even have created a page for this set.

Auggies already has singles up, but only with the renders pictures.

I posted this over on MinisGallery but figured I'd share it here as well...

With the entire setlist revealed I think it would be cool if Paizo did one big preview of all the remaining figures, instead of spacing it out over the next two or three weeks. What's the harm at this point? I know Mark Moreland likes to include a little story for each mini (which is great and all, don't get me wrong) but at this stage of the game I think a picture along with the name, size, and rarity of the miniature would be more than enough for us. Just a thought.

Look what I just found:

https://wizkids.com/pathfinder-battles-kingmaker/

Pics of the Earth and Water Elemental case incentives have been uploaded so far. They look fantastic!

Thanks, Kubla!
It looks that shortly after i looked, Wizkids did create the Official Kingmaker page!

There is no full minis gallery yet, but pictures of the actual Huge Elementals are shown!

The Water Elemental is by far the biggest of the four, the Earth Elemental the second largest.

Imo the Fire Elemental (Lord) is the only underwhelming one (the D&D Giants of Legend version being superior).

I like the new fire elemental much better than the original - she has a shape, rather than just being a fiery blob. But, personal taste. ^_^

Also, for pedantry's sake, the DDM Huge Fire Elemental wasn't Giants of Legend. I wanna say... War of the Dragon Queen? I think? Its skirmish stats were too far from regular D&D, and it had an Epic color stat card.

I like the new fire elemental much better than the original - she has a shape, rather than just being a fiery blob. But, personal taste. ^_^

Also, for pedantry's sake, the DDM Huge Fire Elemental wasn't Giants of Legend. I wanna say... War of the Dragon Queen? I think? Its skirmish stats were too far from regular D&D, and it had an Epic color stat card.

Yeah, she is definetly more shapely & you are right about the "blob" being from "War of the Dragon Queen".

Yeah, I'm definitely glad to have access to both (especially with three DDM Elementals). If only I could say the same for the other elements...

If you look closely, Ekundayo (Human Ranger) & Octavia (Half-Elf Arcane Trickster) from the Kingmaker computer game can be seen battling the Earth Elemental in the second-last picture.

Both look pretty good fro. what can be seen.

@Kalindlara
Do you wish for more shapely versions of Air, Earth & Water elements?
I am sure Icons of the Realms will make huge elementals soon, maybe as soon as february 2019...

I like the Pathfinder Battles version of the huge Elementals as special elemental lords, while the more generic huges can fill in as “fodder”. That being said, I’d like to see an additional option for the water elemental.

I will say, as a whole, I’ve pretty much adopted the Pathfinder Battles version of all the other sizes of elementals as my go to versions. The consistent look across sizes played a big factor in that.

And, yes, we definitely need more paraelementals. Ice and magma at leat have some coverage, but mud and dust are woefully lacking.

@Kalindlara

Do you wish for more shapely versions of Air, Earth & Water elements?
I am sure Icons of the Realms will make huge elementals soon, maybe as soon as february 2019...

Not specifically. Just having enough minis would be nice. ^_^

Yeah, a cheaper more affordable elemental so you can get 4-5 would be nice. I think these two elem nta.s are amazing though and they do feel like incentive pieces.

In my opinion Icons of the Realms minis are even worse than PF Battles; at least PFB sculpts are well done, IotR minis look to me like they were designed and painted by a group of toddlers.

City of the Dead premium set was an exception, it was IMO very well done. Also those ('Nolzur's...') unpainted sets look really good. :)

You must be surrounded by some very gifted toddlers!

I’m pleased that we seem to be in the middle of the golden age of PPM. And, Pathfinder Battles has played a key role in getting us there. Without them, I’m not sure whether Wizards of the Coast would have re-entered PPM. I’m quite happy to collect from both Pathfinder Battles and Icons of the Realm miniatures. Both lines have great things to offer, and have driven each other to put out better product.

You must be surrounded by some very gifted toddlers!

I’m pleased that we seem to be in the middle of the golden age of PPM. And, Pathfinder Battles has played a key role in getting us there. Without them, I’m not sure whether Wizards of the Coast would have re-entered PPM. I’m quite happy to collect from both Pathfinder Battles and Icons of the Realm miniatures. Both lines have great things to offer, and have driven each other to put out better product.

Solidly agree. Also, it provides choice, even when they tread the same path. There’s a number of minis present in both lines and one can pick and choose a preferred style.

If i compare the old D&D, Pathfinder Battles and Icons of the Realms lines, D&D has both newer lines beat.

PFB has the best medium minis imo.

IotR has huge minis as part of every third set nowadays.

Small minis are roughly the same quality.

Large minis are also better in PFB most of the time.

The biggest problem is that the PFB line has only a trickle of huge minis as incentives, whereas IotR will have published almost all huge 5e creatures as minis by the end of 2020, as it looks atm.

I am definetly gonna buy "Ruins of Lastwall", but after that, i am not sure.
It will depend on the changes made by the PF 2.0 Bestiary.

You must be surrounded by some very gifted toddlers!

I’m pleased that we seem to be in the middle of the golden age of PPM. And, Pathfinder Battles has played a key role in getting us there. Without them, I’m not sure whether Wizards of the Coast would have re-entered PPM. I’m quite happy to collect from both Pathfinder Battles and Icons of the Realm miniatures. Both lines have great things to offer, and have driven each other to put out better product.

I have to disagree. IMO the "Golden Age" was years ago; the sculpts were good, most of the minis were painted really well and the minis were affordable. These days a single booster costs about 23 euros (approx. 27 USD) at my FLGS, and the quality has dramatically dropped from those days when you'd get a booster for 20 USD.

Are you really saying you think this, this, this or this are as good as (or better than) most minis from older DDM or PFB sets, for example this, this, this or this?

IMO it's quite obvious that WizKids have cut costs to increase profits; all minis have thick layers of paint applied to them without any washing or drybrushing, and this unfortunately conceals most features instead of highlighting them.

Berk the Black wrote:

You must be surrounded by some very gifted toddlers!

I’m pleased that we seem to be in the middle of the golden age of PPM. And, Pathfinder Battles has played a key role in getting us there. Without them, I’m not sure whether Wizards of the Coast would have re-entered PPM. I’m quite happy to collect from both Pathfinder Battles and Icons of the Realm miniatures. Both lines have great things to offer, and have driven each other to put out better product.

I have to disagree. IMO the "Golden Age" was years ago; the sculpts were good, most of the minis were painted really well and the minis were affordable. These days a single booster costs about 23 euros (approx. 27 USD) at my FLGS, and the quality has dramatically dropped from those days when you'd get a booster for 20 USD.

Are you really saying you think this, this, this or this are as good as (or better than) most minis from older DDM or PFB sets, for example this, this, this or this?

IMO it's quite obvious that WizKids have cut costs to increase profits; all minis have thick layers of paint applied to them without any washing or drybrushing, and this unfortunately conceals most features instead of highlighting them.

Where do you live?

You also took some of the badder quality newer PFB & Icons minis and compared them to solid ones, which is not really fair imo, because in every single set there are some better and some worse minis.

If you refer to the golden age of miniatures as being over, you are right - nothing today beats 2003-2010s 21 D&D sets.

But the time where you could get 8 minis for less than €10 are over, because chinese painters get paid more today and that's a good thing.

You are not wrong when you say that an increasing number of minis are painted too thick, though.

Where do you live?

I ask because i pay much less € for a booster in germany.

You also took some of the badder quality newer PFB & Icons minis and compared them to solid ones, which is not really fair imo, because in every single set there are some better and some worse minis.

If you refer to the golden age of miniatures as being over, you are right - nothing today beats 2003-2010s 21 D&D sets.

But the time where you could get 8 minis for less than €10 are over, because chinese painters get paid more today and that's a good thing.

You are not wrong when you say that an increasing number of minis are painted too thick, though.

I live in Finland, and the pricing policy at my FLGS is that 1 USD equals 1 euro, i.e. a booster that costs 20 USD in the States will be 20 euros over here. But that is understandable as there are tariffs, import taxes and shipping costs that they need to cover. I'm just angry about sloppy painting and lack of details, as if we customers will happily dish out *more* money even though quality has dropped.

BTW, I didn't choose particularly horrible or great minis; I could have pick almost any of them from the latest PFB and IotR sets. But otherwise you're right, at least Large/Huge/Gargantuan (PFB) minis are almost universally better than the rest, but even they haven't had any drybushing applied to highlight details.

Marco, I had to go back and look if I had indeed picked the worst mini in Jungles of Despair, but after looking at pictures of the whole set I don't think I did. Honestly, there are not many minis I'd willingly pay for in this set or the previous ones.

I mean, just take a look at all these:
Venom Daemon
Clay Golem
Human Hunter
Serpentfolk Wizard
Hollow Serpent
Human Paladin Commander

Hollow Serpent is the only one that didn't make me instantly cringe; and even that is literally glistening because of thick layers of paint. :/

Marco, I had to go back and look if I had indeed picked the worst mini in Jungles of Despair, but after looking at pictures of the whole set I don't think I did. Honestly, there are not many minis I'd willingly pay for in this set or the previous ones.

I mean, just take a look at all these:
Venom Daemon
Clay Golem
Human Hunter
Serpentfolk Wizard
Hollow Serpent
Human Paladin Commander

Hollow Serpent is the only one that didn't make me instantly cringe; and even that is literally glistening because of thick layers of paint. :/

It's hard to take your criticism seriously when you include the human paladin commander. Even blown up something like 500% larger than the physical object, it looks reasonable.

Otherwise, you cherry-picked bland molds.

Asgetrion wrote:

Marco, I had to go back and look if I had indeed picked the worst mini in Jungles of Despair, but after looking at pictures of the whole set I don't think I did. Honestly, there are not many minis I'd willingly pay for in this set or the previous ones.

I mean, just take a look at all these:
Venom Daemon
Clay Golem
Human Hunter
Serpentfolk Wizard
Hollow Serpent
Human Paladin Commander

Hollow Serpent is the only one that didn't make me instantly cringe; and even that is literally glistening because of thick layers of paint. :/

It's hard to take your criticism seriously when you include the human paladin commander. Even blown up something like 500% larger than the physical object, it looks reasonable.

Otherwise, you cherry-picked bland molds.

I don't think I cherry-picked anything; I linked some random minis from the set. I could have just picked almost any of them as examples. How about if I just link the first few minis (in order):

Pixie
Mold Runt
Dryad
Metal Cobra
Azata Wilder

Out of those five minis I think only the Dryad is good, and Metal Cobra is okay, but I wouldn't want to pay for the rest of them.

I'm fine with sculpts; I actually think the previewed digital renders are really nice, and have always been vastly better than most sculpts in the Icons of the Realms product line. That's not an issue for me. I'm just flabbergated how much the end product differs from those sculpt, especially considering that a few years ago most PF Battles minis were good or excellent, IMO even the "worst" ones were decent.

And now? I honestly think about 30% of minis in recent sets have been terrible, and the rest have been okay with some decent or even an occasional good mini thrown into the bunch. However, all the images I've seen of Kingmaker minis (even on Paizo's own pages) remind me of Legends of Golarion, and that is not a compliment. In my opinion it might turn out to be the worst set yet.

YMMV, and that's okay; but for me the quality's not just good enough to justify spending any more money on them. And I'm honestly baffled by this; why has the quality dropped so dramatically in a few years?

BTW, I just don't get your point about the Human Paladin Commander; no matter how hard I look at the mini, I don't see any "remeding" qualities in it. Just compare these two commanders:

Human Paladin Commander
Gray Maiden Commander

Anguish wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Marco, I had to go back and look if I had indeed picked the worst mini in Jungles of Despair, but after looking at pictures of the whole set I don't think I did. Honestly, there are not many minis I'd willingly pay for in this set or the previous ones.

I mean, just take a look at all these:
Venom Daemon
Clay Golem
Human Hunter
Serpentfolk Wizard
Hollow Serpent
Human Paladin Commander

Hollow Serpent is the only one that didn't make me instantly cringe; and even that is literally glistening because of thick layers of paint. :/

It's hard to take your criticism seriously when you include the human paladin commander. Even blown up something like 500% larger than the physical object, it looks reasonable.

Otherwise, you cherry-picked bland molds.

I don't think I cherry-picked anything; I linked some random minis from the set. I could have just picked almost any of them as examples. How about if I just link the first few minis (in order):

Pixie
Mold Runt
Dryad
Metal Cobra
Azata Wilder

Out of those five minis I think only the Dryad is good, and Metal Cobra is okay, but I wouldn't want to pay for the rest of them.

I'm fine with sculpts; I actually think the previewed digital renders are really nice, and have always been...

You're not exactly wrong, the paintjobs could be better, but most actually looj better in hand.

Look at these two unboxing videos of Jungle of Despair

JoD2

I received my case over the weekend and I was happy with all the paint jobs. I disagree that the quality has gone down. Sure some are better than others, but as a whole, I am very satisfied.

You're not exactly wrong, the paintjobs could be better, but most actually looj better in hand.

Look at these two unboxing videos of Jungle of Despair

JoD2

I've watched some unboxing videos of JoD and Kingmaker; some minis actually look better "in real life", but most only marginally so. And there are many (for example, Elven Druid or Shambling Mound) that IMO are just as bad or even worse than in those pictures. :/

@Peachbottom: have you collected older DDM and PF Battles sets? Because in my opinion those minis are vastly superior in every aspect to anything that WizKids have put out since 2014. Comparing them it's obvious (at least to me) that while the price has gone up the quality has gone down.

I mean, the paint jobs on PFB minis blow most Harbinger or Dragoneye minis out of the water. Later DDM sets got a bit better, but DDM never aimed for paint detail as ambitious as PFB does.

I mean, the paint jobs on PFB minis blow most Harbinger or Dragoneye minis out of the water. Later DDM sets got a bit better, but DDM never aimed for paint detail as ambitious as PFB does.

Yeah, the very first DDM sets were not very ambitious with their sculpts or use of colors, but I still think there are many "gems" among Dragoneye minis that I still use a lot. And highlighting techniques were used on surprisingly many figures back then, which makes them seem more alive and offsets dull colors quite a bit. Just compare almost any scaled or armored DDM figure (apart from the 4E era sets) to contempotary PF Battles miniatures, and the contrast is (at least to me) quite evident.

(BTW, I see no ambition or striving for high quality in paint jobs on PF Battles miniatures; sculpts and miniature design by Paizo is another thing, but sadly WizKids shows no regard for giving their customers "bang for their buck". It was a different thing with early PF Battles sets and pre-4E era DDM sets.)

Kalindlara wrote:

I mean, the paint jobs on PFB minis blow most Harbinger or Dragoneye minis out of the water. Later DDM sets got a bit better, but DDM never aimed for paint detail as ambitious as PFB does.

Yeah, the very first DDM sets were not very ambitious with their sculpts or use of colors, but I still think there are many "gems" among Dragoneye minis that I still use a lot. And highlighting techniques were used on surprisingly many figures back then, which makes them seem more alive and offsets dull colors quite a bit. Just compare almost any scaled or armored DDM figure (apart from the 4E era sets) to contempotary PF Battles miniatures, and the contrast is (at least to me) quite evident.

Oh, the sculpts and such were fine, and I love those minis dearly. But look at something like the Arcane Archer... it's basically just patches of color. Light flesh tone for face, with no eyes or anything; uniform brown for armor and bow; yellowish for hair; a basic wash to make it look less Crayola. (That last step is where 4e DDM really cut corners. See: Elf Archer.)