Big Pathfinder/Starfinder Reference Document News!

Ah sweet! Congrats on the official partnership. AoN was always my go to for pathfinder stuff. I hope that the site will eventually have a an option to filter by core book, as that was the only reason I used the PRD.

No, that's not true cigarret, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't smear legitimate complaints with your 'whining' claim. I, at least, have purchased every source book for every character ability, DM run, etc. I do/use. I suspect many folks around here do (though certainly not all I agree).

However, Paizo's SRD and the Archives of Nethys are not identical. There are many legitimate reasons why the loss of Paizo's SRD is significant to many of us. Will AoN close the gap over the next weeks and months? I have every faith in Blake and his team. However, pulling the plug on Paizo's SRD in this way is poor form in my opinion - and others on this site and others I've communicated with agree.

Please don't assume and snark, it adds nothing to the conversation and only inflames emotions.

Papa-DRB - the site seems mostly stable to me (maybe a touch slower), and considering the extra load they must be experiencing I'm happy. I did get that error once, but I refreshed and it cleared. Over time, I suspect they'll add resources and it'll stay up and zippy.

Ah, my apologies, I thought it was just a free resource, I didn't realize that it had other applications. The over-reactions from some of the people above just seemed a little extreme.

For all who have suggestions on how to improve the site / give back functionality now lacking with the old PRD removal, please hit up the feedback emails (feedback@aonprd.com and feedback@aonsrd.com) - we have a lot in the works right now and I hope to address the most common concerns in the coming months.

Speaking for many of us freelancers, I'm sure that we'd all appreciate getting the "Bestiary Index" functionality back as quickly as possible. That tool really made designing encounters easier.

hehehe, I agree with you there cigarret. Some are taking it a little harder than others. I am taking it pretty seriously, but likely only because of the other failures of Paizo of late if I'm to be honest.

They can't seem to manage any technology. I worry for the Kingmaker game about to come out, and what it'll be like almost as much as I'm looking forward to it.

I do so want Paizo to be a successful company, but they keep failing at what I see as basic customer service, let alone basic technology. Site down for weeks at a time with no real explanation that I can find. Their support for online games is feeble, and getting worse with every so-called update. Bugs mentioned online with delays of days, weeks, and even months before fixes occur - if they ever do.

It is a free resource, but one they've offered and made integral to their friendly demeanor. More and more that friendliness is disappearing to be replaced by coldness. I can get that from other game makers easily enough.

Pretty soon it'll be 2E Pathfinder vs 5E D&D and the only thing keeping me here now is the loyalty of the DMs I play under, and the very excellent APs they continue to produce. But I'm asking myself regularly now, 'how good is the 5E material?'

I never asked that question before. Paizo's repeated failures on multiple fronts have me there, and many others I suspect. And there's no indication Paizo is listening which saddens me.

I'm in two minds about this. Both PRD and Archives have both served two nices in my gaming. PRD for rules and Archives for options. I am happy Archives will catch up on rules... but it would have been better to let the PRD be up untill the project had been completed.

This

So I'm assuming that this counts as the Adventurer's Guide being added to the PRD in regards to the PFS Additional Resource requirements to use the listed updated content instead of the original versions, yes?

Where are all the psionics rules from the pfsrd? Please leave the old site up, at least long enough for me to download copies if they are being dropped from the game...

d20pfsrd.com is a different site (mine) and is not affected by this.

Frankly I think this is awful. And the execution of the Nethys site is slowwww

its freakin static documents. no way the rule archive was a burden on the IT team.

Frankly I think this is awful. And the execution of the Nethys site is slowwww

its freakin static documents. no way the rule archive was a burden on the IT team.

Emphasis on static. The PRD hasn't been updated since ... whatever book was before Horror Adventures. Horror Adventures was published in 2016, almost three years ago.

So sure, it required nothing to upkeep, but it definitely seems like it was too much for the Web Team to do on their own.

Just curious Blake, but does that mean stuff like Horror Adventures and Planar adventures will be in there too soon? Cause I'd love to see some of that go live soon.

Those have been live for a while (see below for links). If you mean the rules content from them (as opposed to new mechanics/options), then yes, that's coming. We aim to get all the Rules from the RPG line and any other book that includes new rule options.

https://www.aonprd.com/SourceDisplay.aspx?FixedSource=Planar%20Adventures
https://www.aonprd.com/SourceDisplay.aspx?FixedSource=Horror%20Adventures

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Just curious Blake, but does that mean stuff like Horror Adventures and Planar adventures will be in there too soon? Cause I'd love to see some of that go live soon.

Those have been live for a while (see below for links). If you mean the rules content from them (as opposed to new mechanics/options), then yes, that's coming. We aim to get all the Rules from the RPG line and any other book that includes new rule options.

Planar
Horror

Linkified

They can't seem to manage any technology. I worry for the Kingmaker game about to come out, and what it'll be like almost as much as I'm looking forward to it.

Kingmaker is being produce by a 3rd party, Owlcat Games.

I'm very glad for three reasons:

1) I kept having to direct players to the Archives of Nethys anyway so they could read the "real" (i.e., Golarion-infused) prerequisites of abilities they wanted to take; and

2) I kept having to direct players to the Archives of Nethys so they could see that little symbol next to every option that says whether it's PFS-legal;and

3) It's one less thing for the Paizo web team to have to think about, which is good.

Sara Marie wrote:

Let's keep feedback or requests for changes polite and free of aggressive language.

I politely request Paizo make the pre-existing PRD available to the public, in its entirety, in its pre-existing format, in perpetuity, even if it is never updated again.

I don't care who hosts it.
I don't care what the URL is.
I don't care if the landing page is a giant disclaimer stating aonprd.com is now the authoritative source for PFRPG rules.

I would be willing to pay for this as an app

I loved the clickable version of the rulebook

Searching was better. Graphic design was better

Like many others as a GM all PRD content was automatically legal at my table

I love AoN and use them a lot, but i am devestated at the loss of the PRD. I am going to have to buy a forklift to start carrying all my hardbacks again

Archives, I'd love to see some of the subsystems introduced in the various APs to the rules section. I figure that'll probably take a while (and probably doesn't need to be a top priority), but would be a great addition to the site.

hehehe, I agree with you there cigarret. Some are taking it a little harder than others. I am taking it pretty seriously, but likely only because of the other failures of Paizo of late if I'm to be honest.

They can't seem to manage any technology. I worry for the Kingmaker game about to come out, and what it'll be like almost as much as I'm looking forward to it.

I do so want Paizo to be a successful company, but they keep failing at what I see as basic customer service, let alone basic technology. Site down for weeks at a time with no real explanation that I can find. Their support for online games is feeble, and getting worse with every so-called update. Bugs mentioned online with delays of days, weeks, and even months before fixes occur - if they ever do.

It is a free resource, but one they've offered and made integral to their friendly demeanor. More and more that friendliness is disappearing to be replaced by coldness. I can get that from other game makers easily enough.

Pretty soon it'll be 2E Pathfinder vs 5E D&D and the only thing keeping me here now is the loyalty of the DMs I play under, and the very excellent APs they continue to produce. But I'm asking myself regularly now, 'how good is the 5E material?'

I never asked that question before. Paizo's repeated failures on multiple fronts have me there, and many others I suspect. And there's no indication Paizo is listening which saddens me.

If you enjoy the complexity & tactics & builds of Pathfinder, like most of us here do you might get a little boost of enjoyment from 5e, but it might not last long.

My group plays both 5e and Pathfinder - we've completed Age of Worms (to Level 20) with some Mythic thrown in, and I'm DMing a Strange Aeons which is currently in book 5 at level 14. D&D-wise we've played to level 11 twice, and are currently up to level 9 in Storm King's Thunder, plus I've DM'd a good part of the first campaign and Curse of Strahd. I ended up selling most of my 5e stuff, because to me it felt like it had run it's course, though a few of the people in the group still love 5e. I'd never sell my Pathfinder books. Right now I struggle to think of a character that I'd get excited about creating in 5e, while just glancing through the Pathfinder books I can think of a ton of classes & archetypes that I'd like to try.

Anyway, my two cents. I too hope Paizo gets their web presence together and keeps putting out amazing books, but they've earned my trust at this point and they have a long, long rope to go through before they lose it.

My only issue with AoN is that it's blocked where I work. d20PFSRD and PRD are/were accessible.

-Skeld

My only issue with AoN is that it's blocked where I work. d20PFSRD and PRD are/were accessible.

-Skeld

Let's see:

I used to be able to access paizo.com/prd and archivesofnethys.com.

aonprd.com and d20pfsrd.com are both blocked, so I am now out of luck until I get home.

Unless you use a portable hotspot, like I do. My workplace has no Internet, at all.

Try visiting https://www.aonprd.com instead of just http://www.aonprd.com . Depending on how you're being blocked, that may get around it.

I'm another who (a) loves AoN, but (b) does not like this move, and (c) hates the way it was carried out.

Like some of the others, I used the PRD and AoN for different things.

Archives of Nethys is great for character options. It's comprehensive, it lists sources, it is setting compliant, and, it's my go-to reference for use when making a character. That makes it very valuable, and I'm immensely grateful that it exists.

But I preferred the PRD for rules text and for monsters, in large part because it was thoroughly cross-referenced. If, for example, I'm looking at an air elemental and don't remember how the whirlwind ability works, or am trying to decide whether to cast stinking cloud but don't remember what the nauseated condition does, the PRD put that information right at my fingertips. Archives of Nethys simply lacks that functionality. I've no doubt that the information is there, but the PRD made it easy to find.

As much as I love AoN, I won't find it an adequate substitute for the PRD until it is better cross-referenced. Fortunately, the PFSRD is there to pick up the slack!

I never really used the PRD. I always used AoN or d20pfsrd as my go to sources. As AoN gets links brought in and the rules pages updated, it will be much better than before and more user friendly.

Although not having used the PRD I can see peoples points about the rug being pulled out from under them, especially with certain things not available yet.

CAN WE GO BACK TO STONE TABLETS? THIS WHOLE PAPYRUS THING YOU PEOPLE AT PAIZO MADE UP FOR NO REASON GIVES ME HEADACHE.

In other news, I approve of this development. You may proceed.

I love AoN, but I still found the PRD useful. I'm very disappointed to see the old PRD removed. There is no reason why the pazio hosted PRD could not have continued to coexist in its current state despite this announcement with the caveat that the PRD would no longer be updated.

WWWWHHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! HHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Linkified for your convenience.

I politely request Paizo make the pre-existing PRD available to the public, in its entirety, in its pre-existing format, in perpetuity, even if it is never updated again.

I don't care who hosts it.
I don't care what the URL is.
I don't care if the landing page is a giant disclaimer stating aonprd.com is now the authoritative source for PFRPG rules and a big half-grinning half-snarling face of Nethys with big bright hyperlink to aonprd.com.

Heck, I don't care if it's a chibi anime Nethys head as an animated GIF with embedded 8-bit MIDI sound jingle that I have no way of turning off. Just give me back what I had yesterday.

Simply auto-redirecting http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ to aonprd.com was a slap in the face. You did not add anything to the gaming community; you took something away.

^ THIS. Don't get me wrong, I like AoN, I even prefer it for some tasks, but I also prefer the PRD for others. AoN, the PRD, and d20pfsrd (and others) all serve different purposes in my Pathfinder toolbox. Now Paizo has taken one of those tools away from me and I'm left to use a wrench in place of a hammer.

Oh and I just realized, I'm about to start a Kingmaker campaign. I had been using the PRD to brush up on the kingdom building rules. Where are these rules on aon? Oh that's right, they aren't there and in another campaign we're nearing the end of chapter 2 of Wrath of the Righteous. Where are the mass combat rules? Nope not on aon. Guess it's over to the unofficial d20pfsrd. Sure the post at aon says they are working on bringing in rules and I have no doubt they will, but how soon, and will they be as well organized?

Great!!!
Welcome :-)
I love AoN, my favorite rules source and search engine

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

AoN, and Blake, are brilliant. I'm glad they'll get more Paizo support to do what they do.

I will also join the wagon of folks who say this was done poorly. AoN does NOT have everything the PRD had - particularly with regards to the rules section. And all that is gone now. Likewise all my characters have spell lists which link to the PRD. That is all gone now and I'll have to go through AoN and relink everything. This last is a minor thing perhaps, but time consuming.

Paizo has pulled the plug on something that, admittedly worked poorly at times, and was woefully out of date, but functional for all that.

Paizo, for the last months, all you've done is make it increasingly harder to play games.

I hope that trend changes, because your repeated technological failures are really pissing people off - and they are leaving. This is just another failure, but at least there's a strong community presence (AoN) to take up the slack.

If only there was a mirror of the Paizo PRD somewhere

Euan wrote:

AoN, and Blake, are brilliant. I'm glad they'll get more Paizo support to do what they do.

I will also join the wagon of folks who say this was done poorly. AoN does NOT have everything the PRD had - particularly with regards to the rules section. And all that is gone now. Likewise all my characters have spell lists which link to the PRD. That is all gone now and I'll have to go through AoN and relink everything. This last is a minor thing perhaps, but time consuming.

Paizo has pulled the plug on something that, admittedly worked poorly at times, and was woefully out of date, but functional for all that.

Paizo, for the last months, all you've done is make it increasingly harder to play games.

I hope that trend changes, because your repeated technological failures are really pissing people off - and they are leaving. This is just another failure, but at least there's a strong community presence (AoN) to take up the slack.

If only there was a mirror of the Paizo PRD somewhere

Ooo, Brilliant. That should stop a bunch of the whining until AoN gets up to date.

If it's on the PRD it's legal.

I think the idea is that this will be the PRD going forward.

Mekkis wrote:

Euan wrote:

AoN, and Blake, are brilliant. I'm glad they'll get more Paizo support to do what they do.

I will also join the wagon of folks who say this was done poorly. AoN does NOT have everything the PRD had - particularly with regards to the rules section. And all that is gone now. Likewise all my characters have spell lists which link to the PRD. That is all gone now and I'll have to go through AoN and relink everything. This last is a minor thing perhaps, but time consuming.

Paizo has pulled the plug on something that, admittedly worked poorly at times, and was woefully out of date, but functional for all that.

Paizo, for the last months, all you've done is make it increasingly harder to play games.

I hope that trend changes, because your repeated technological failures are really pissing people off - and they are leaving. This is just another failure, but at least there's a strong community presence (AoN) to take up the slack.

If only there was a mirror of the Paizo PRD somewhere

Ooo, Brilliant. That should stop a bunch of the whining until AoN gets up to date.

Everyone has their own favorite reference document and this time it was the PRD-users that got the short end of the stick. I can only imagine the outrage if Paizo revoked the OGL and both AoN and d20PFSRD had to shut down.

Personally I've never used AoN before today and if I had the choice I would still use the PRD, if just for the clean layout.

Please respect other people’s preferences and don't write it off as 'whining'

I'm torn. I've always used the AoN as my outside-the-PRD reference site. It's a solid site. On the other hand, this hitting so suddenly and without the old site being available in the transition leaves me in a bit of a bind with some things I'm doing. AoN is great for character options, but obviously lacks the rules content I need access to (for instance, this morning I needed to look at the Timeworn condition and the Background Skills rules, but neither are on AoN yet).

In the long run, this should be a positive change. It's just that right this second... not so much?

My only issue with AoN is that it's blocked where I work. d20PFSRD and PRD are/were accessible.

-Skeld

Another way around this is if you know what you're looking for, try google searching it and then accessing the cached page.

For example, earlier I specifically went to look for the PRD's page on the sea hag. Not knowing about the move from the PRD to AoN, I was confused by the redirect, so I went to google and typed:

"Pathfinder PRD Sea Hag"

Then when the first link looked like it would take me where it was supposed to, I clicked the green triangle next to the URL beneath the link and clicked "cached". It's still there in that format.

Seriously people, if you want the old PRD use the Github mirror linked above.

That should cover the transition while AoN is getting rules content copied over and make things easier for people who need to update PRD links (i.e. global search and replace).

I think this will be an improvement, and I am very happy to see that the Archives will be going official!

That said, I think this transition was not handled well. In that there *was* no transition.

Again, I think this is a good change overall, but I really wish we had gotten more advance notice that this was coming and had a transition period with both sites active. Even a couple of weeks would have made a big difference in terms of getting the news out and getting people used to the idea before all their URLs suddenly started redirecting with no warning.

Hopefully, Paizo will learn from this and the other recent tech troubles and put some better IT policies in place going forward.

WHHHHHAAAAAAAT?! YES! Absolutely awesome! My favorite site on the 'net is not going away and is in fact Pathfinder's (well, Starfinder too, but I'm not interested) official RD!

Congrats to Blake and all who assist him with AON!

AON/Blake, you do intend to keep all classic Pathfinder content available when 2nd ed PF kicks off, correct? It's so rich in flavor and options that I will not be making the switch. Love classic Pathfinder.

Just FYI, one thing I went looking for that I couldn't find on AoN was monster advancement rules. I see you have a rule section, but it seems to just cover the CRB. The monster advancement rules have been around since the first Bestiary, though.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Just curious Blake, but does that mean stuff like Horror Adventures and Planar adventures will be in there too soon? Cause I'd love to see some of that go live soon.

Those have been live for a while (see below for links). If you mean the rules content from them (as opposed to new mechanics/options), then yes, that's coming. We aim to get all the Rules from the RPG line and any other book that includes new rule options.

https://www.aonprd.com/SourceDisplay.aspx?FixedSource=Planar%20Adventures
https://www.aonprd.com/SourceDisplay.aspx?FixedSource=Horror%20Adventures

That's exactly what I meant (ie the rules content not the mechanics). But thank you for taking the time to answer. It is deeply appreciated.

Oh and I just realized, I'm about to start a Kingmaker campaign. I had been using the PRD to brush up on the kingdom building rules. Where are these rules on aon? Oh that's right, they aren't there and in another campaign we're nearing the end of chapter 2 of Wrath of the Righteous. Where are the mass combat rules? Nope not on aon. Guess it's over to the unofficial d20pfsrd. Sure the post at aon says they are working on bringing in rules and I have no doubt they will, but how soon, and will they be as well organized?

The book you want is Ultimate Campaign. I also suggest Legendary Games supplements on these topics.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Tridus wrote:

It actually has more coverage than the PRD book wise, so I'm really not understanding what in the world you are talking about.

The PRD was a much more manageable listing of rules, only the hardcover releases generally made it in. That was a useful distinction for him, and now that it is gone, he has lost functionality.

Exactly. Thank you.

For example:

I have a new player.
They want to buy a weapon.
They can use simple weapons.

The new site lists all simple weapons on one page.

I look and see something on there called a "stingchuck".
I have no idea what this is, having never heard of it before.

I open the listing for it and it's "A stingchuck is a foul bag made of a humanoid’s head with the brain removed and the skull heavily scored so that it bursts open when thrown."

What the butt?

Ahh... it's an item from "Adventurer's Armory", not one of the basic books.

Now I can no longer tell my player "Any weapon on this list from this page is available" because they'll be buying a freakin' human head to throw at people IN A HUMAN TOWN!

I don't want this item in my shops!
I don't want my players having this!

And I can not simply and easily send them a link to SIMPLE WEAPONS that does NOT include this item.

Do you really not see the problem here?

I have to agree. many of us DO NOT want the insane amount of info included in all the publishes...some of it is so unbalancing and slows gameplay down far too much.

in 30+ years of gaming, I cant think of a single instance where a game company itself has derailed someones campaign before....I have seen campaigns derailed by obsessive players, drunken DM's, even love triangles, but never by a company itself....first time for everything I suppose

If someone hasn't hosted it by this evening, I'll clone it onto my server.

Phnord_Prephect wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Tridus wrote:

It actually has more coverage than the PRD book wise, so I'm really not understanding what in the world you are talking about.

The PRD was a much more manageable listing of rules, only the hardcover releases generally made it in. That was a useful distinction for him, and now that it is gone, he has lost functionality.

Exactly. Thank you.

For example:

I have a new player.
They want to buy a weapon.
They can use simple weapons.

The new site lists all simple weapons on one page.

I look and see something on there called a "stingchuck".
I have no idea what this is, having never heard of it before.

I open the listing for it and it's "A stingchuck is a foul bag made of a humanoid’s head with the brain removed and the skull heavily scored so that it bursts open when thrown."

What the butt?

Ahh... it's an item from "Adventurer's Armory", not one of the basic books.

Now I can no longer tell my player "Any weapon on this list from this page is available" because they'll be buying a freakin' human head to throw at people IN A HUMAN TOWN!

I don't want this item in my shops!
I don't want my players having this!

And I can not simply and easily send them a link to SIMPLE WEAPONS that does NOT include this item.

Do you really not see the problem here?

I have to agree. many of us DO NOT want the insane amount of info included in all the publishes...some of it is so unbalancing and slows gameplay down far too much.

I looked at the mirror that was posted above, but that is in weird code I dont understand how to read...so thats useless to me as well.
An archived record of our campaign's existing set of rules (the PRD) would have been polite at the minimum...or at the very least a bit of warning?

in 30+ years of gaming, I cant think of a single instance where a game company itself has derailed someones campaign before....I have seen campaigns derailed by obsessive players, drunken...

If it is all Paizo original Pathfinder, it should be on the site. If you want to rule only Core for your game, you do that. The source is listed for every piece of information. But all Paizo Pathfinder should be represented, as AON has done in the past.

Give the Player Companions a chance. Some fantastic stuff in there these past 2 years!

Hey folks, we hear your feedback about the immediate change/lack of access to the legacy site. I'm taking this feedback back to the larger group behind these decisions today to see how we can address it.

I looked at the mirror that was posted above, but that is in weird code I dont understand how to read...so thats useless to me as well.

It's just html, if you're interacting with this forum you know how to use html.

You can grab a copy of that archive, save it to your hard disk and open the file index.html with your internet browser of choice.

visit this URL https://github.com/Mekkiss/pathfinder1.1
click the big green "clone or download" button.
click the download zip.
save the zip file
unzip the downloaded file
explore the unzipped file
click on the index.html

then click on the link that says "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document"

That should give you your own copy of the PRD.

I looked at the mirror that was posted above, but that is in weird code I don't understand how to read...so that is useless to me as well.

If you are interested;

0) Create a folder on your computer, say "Paizo PRD"
1) Go to the Github link
2) Download the zip file into the folder created in step 0
3) Extract the files from the zip file into the folder
4) Double click on "index.html"

You now have the Paizo PRD as of a few days ago. The only thing that doesn't work is search, as it takes you to the AON site.

-- david

Edit: Dang, ninja'd by Ampersandrew by about 1 minutes....

Dang, ninja'd by Ampersandrew by about 1 minutes....

I assume also you took the time to try it out, that's what slowed me down.

I can only imagine the outrage if Paizo revoked the OGL

Under the terms of the OGL, they can't legally do that.