Multiclassing and Archetypes

Friday, July 27, 2018

One of the trickiest parts of the rules is multiclassing. At its heart, multiclassing allows you to build almost any character you can envision, taking parts from multiple classes to build the perfect version of your character. Making these rules play well with the rest of the game, unfortunately, has always been a challenge. Concepts that really should work together just fell flat, leaving you with a character who could not perform at its level and keep pace with single class characters. This was especially the case for certain classes, like most spellcasters, that had a central class feature or features that you would fall sharply behind in if you weren't constantly progressing in that class.

Suffice to say, when it came time to redesign the system for the Pathfinder Playtest, we knew that multiclassing needed work.

Then came the rules for archetypes. The new design for this emblematic part of the game allows archetypes to be taken by any class, so you can decide exactly how much you want to invest into an alternative path for your character. The more we worked on that system, the more it began to sound like it shared almost exactly the same goals as multiclassing. Our thought was, shouldn't they just be the same system?

Multiclass archetypes are one of the more experimental parts of the Pathfinder Playtest. So much so that there are only four of them in the book, one for cleric, one for fighter, one for rogue, and one for wizard. Just like ordinary archetypes, you must take a special dedication feat to gain access to the archetype, but you cannot be of the same class as the archetype (so you can't take the rogue dedication feat if you are already a rogue). Let's take a look at one of these feats.

Wizard Dedication Feat 2

Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass

Prerequisites Intelligence 16, trained in Arcana


You cast spells like a wizard and gain a spellbook containing four arcane cantrips of your choice. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity and the Material Casting, Somatic Casting, and Verbal Casting actions. You can prepare two cantrips each day from those found in your spellbook. You're trained in spell rolls and spell DCs for casting arcane spells and in attacks you make with arcane spells. Your key spellcasting ability for these spells is Intelligence. You can use wands, scrolls, and staves, but only for spells of a spell level you can cast. Arcana is a signature skill for you.

Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype.

Right away, this lets you cast a few simple cantrips; allows you to use wands, scrolls, and staves; and makes Arcana a signature skill for you (meaning you can advance your proficiency in the skill to master and legendary). Like other dedication feats, once you've taken Wizard Dedication, you gain access to other wizard archetype feats, each of which makes you a more powerful master of the arcane arts. Take a look.

Basic Wizard Spellcasting Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisites Wizard Dedication


Add two level 1 spells to your spellbook. You gain a single level1 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 1 spell from your spellbook. At 6th level, add two level 2 spells to your spellbook, and you gain a level 2 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 2 spell from your spellbook. At 8th level, add two level 3 spells to your spellbook, and you gain a level 3 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 3 spell from your spellbook.

Even though you can cast spells, the spell level of your cantrips and arcane powers is half your level rounded up.

This feat pays dividends all the way up through 8th level, giving you more spells you can cast, and if you take it later on in your career, you get all of that spellcasting all at once. Better still, there are additional feats you can take to gain spells of up to 8th level! But let's say you want to be even more of a wizard—you want to get some of the other class features that make wizards fun to play. Take a look at these feats.

Arcane School Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisite Wizard Dedication


Select one school of magic from those found in the wizard class. You gain the level 1 school power tied to your school and a pool of Spell Points equal to your Intelligence modifier that you can use to cast that power.

If you already have a pool of Spell Points, use the higher ability score to determine the pool, as normal, and your Spell Point pool increases by 1.

Basic Arcana Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisites Wizard Dedication


Gain a level 1 or level 2 wizard feat of your choice.

Advanced Arcana Feat 6

Archetype

Prerequisites Basic Arcana


Gain one wizard feat. For the purposes of meeting its prerequisites, your wizard level is equal to half your level.

Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you select it, you gain a new wizard feat.

There's even a feat that gives you additional spell slots of every level except for your two highest, giving you more versatility in your spellcasting. It's important to note that these powers come at the cost of some of the flexibility of your primary class, but not at the cost of core features. A cleric who multiclasses into fighter will keep all of her spellcasting abilities, but she will have to trade out some of the feats that allow her to be better at casting heal or at using domain powers in exchange for increased proficiency in weapons and armor, added hit points, and the ability to make attacks of opportunity. You might even choose to multiclass into several classes. You could play a cleric who, in addition to all her cleric spells, also has up to 8th-level druid spells and 8th-level wizard spells, though such a three-tradition spellcaster would have few cleric feats to speak of!

Well, that about covers the rules for multiclassing in the Pathfinder Playtest. If these archetypes work, you can expect to see one for each class in the final version of the game, giving you the flexibility to build characters that draw on more than one class to make their concept click. We hope you'll give these a try during the playtest and let us know what you think!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Moro wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
The problem with it is it limits the classes you can multiclass... and encourages people to play classes such as Bard, Alchemist, or Ranger and then take the Multiclass Archetype to get a core class.
From what I am reading the limited multiclass archetypes are for the playtest book only, and they expect to have all of the core classes' multiclass archetypes sorted out for the actual CRB release.

Especially if you consider that you have to take up at least a page or two per class for their Multiclass archetype instead of just a few paragraphs on how multiclassing works generally.

Silver Crusade

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I really don't know how I feel about this. Will be high on my priority list to playtest. Especially disappointed we won't see spontaneous caster multiclass feats.


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So the big news is what is NOT talked about here, am I right? That PF2 does away with stacking levels from different classes like Lego blocks? Or am I making a wrong assumption?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Moro wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
The problem with it is it limits the classes you can multiclass... and encourages people to play classes such as Bard, Alchemist, or Ranger and then take the Multiclass Archetype to get a core class.
From what I am reading the limited multiclass archetypes are for the playtest book only, and they expect to have all of the core classes' multiclass archetypes sorted out for the actual CRB release.
If you guys are finding these as flexible and effective as our playtesters so far, you can expect all twelve to appear in the CRB, yeah. The bard in my playtest game is loving spending only on feat on fighter dedication to get proficiency in martial weapons and all three categories of armor. Handy!

Wow, that’s awesome! Gives a really good incentive for strength builds, it sounds like. At second level, you can make up for dumping Dex, and get a strong weapon.

Sovereign Court

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This is exactly what I wanted from 2e multiclassing.

Now to fine-tune the exact parameters via playtesting!

Liberty's Edge

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I'm on board. This sounds good.

I am a trifle disappointed that there are only four Classes covered in the playtest, but I understand why that might be, so as long as we eventually get every Class (and new Archetypes as we get new Classes) I'm satisfied.


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Dαedαlus wrote:

Hmmmm....

So all multiclassing is now VMC, in a sense? I’m.... not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, in P1e, I would hate it completely. On the other hand, class progression is completely overhauled, so...

Well, it’s not much longer to wait at least.

Big difference between this and VMC is that VMC was a "buy the whole package or nothing, and you only get a small portion of that class (e.g. VMC wizards didn't get spells if they didn't already have them)" whereas this is "spend as much or as little as you want and you can get pretty much all the features from a second class if you want them."

Interesting thing about this, particularly if it's expanded to let all the classes be multiclass archetypes, is this lets you build those "two classes smashed together" former PRCs (mystic theurge, rage prophet, arcane trickster, eldritch knight, etc.) to one's own bespoke specifications.

I like this a whole lot better than PF1's style of multiclassing.

I'm personally looking forward to trying out a monk who takes rogue feats.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Thebazilly wrote:

I'm coming around to this idea, I think. I like that you can potentially stack multiple multiclassing archetypes, and I like the flexibility of picking what class features you want from your secondary class.

Exactly! It was very important to us to let you mix and match among abilities from your new class so that you can create a character that's unique and wholly your own. It might make sense for the in-world character-progression reason that your character multiclassed into rogue to mean you never gained sneak attack (what if you were a gentleman wizard cat burglar who wouldn't use sneaky tricks to attack people but has more skills than usual?) or maybe your character has divine magic entwined into your other spells but isn't really associated with a domain, or positive/negative channeling. Ultimately this gives you the ability to gain the class features you want from your multiclass (class feats and static class talents alike).


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All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?


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Well I think this kills doing BOTH at the same time.


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I think using feats for everything is gonna bite us in the ass. I mean, say I want a "spy" archetype for my rogue, but I also wanna multiclass in wizard. It's 2 archetypes already. You need to spend feats for everything in this playtest, while in 1e archetypes and multiclassing didn't have a feat cost.

Also, were I wanting to be a barbarian/fighter/cleric by level 3 I can't because dedication.

Finally, I know it's just the playtest, but it would've been nice to have multiclass archetypes for all classes...

All this said, if traditional multiclassing is such a problem, I guess there wasn't much else to try. It could be interesting, for sure. I think many concepts could be realized more or less faithfully.

I honestly hope it works well. Honestly, can't wait to playtest all this stuff.


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Not sure how this will play out. Before in PF1 you could multiclass and take an archetype at the same time. There are even some builds where you level dip in a class with an archetype/s and have your core class with its own archetype/s. Now it looks like you can't do both. With the way dedication works, you would need to be at level 12. Multiclass feats at 2,4, and 6 and Archetypes at 8, 10, and 12 at minimum unless I am mistaking something. This route would lock you out of many class feats. I know this is a rare build but I feel like PF1 does it better. Again, in PF1 multiclassing really hurt spell casters and their progression but there were ways to fight that. i.e. Magical Knack. Some Prestige classes also helped out the loss of progression. Overall this feels reminiscent of the Variant Multiclassing and I don't think many people used it. I mean the problems of multiclassing I think brought in the rise of Hybrid classes. Merge classes people would like to use together and give them the tools they need to succeed. Like the Magus, Slayer, Hunter, Skald, etc, etc. There are even archetypes that borrow features from other classes to their class. Do you like guns? I can name a few classes with archetypes that let them have a taste of guns.

Liberty's Edge

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I like the flexibility. Not a fan of the feat-tax. Again, feat-tax to become multiclass. There seems to be a lot of feat tax for wanting to play concepts that are hybrids of others, something you could do in 1e easily without costing you other class or concept abilities.

This has been my biggest concern when everything was "Feat"ed up, was that feat taxes would tacked on for any character that wants to push outside the mold a bit.

Granted these are great abilities, and come in addition to your core class, but I've seen this used in other popular games to their detriment. At least, in this case, it allows for a broader selection that may or may not work.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm on board. This sounds good.

I am a trifle disappointed that there are only four Classes covered in the playtest, but I understand why that might be, so as long as we eventually get every Class (and new Archetypes as we get new Classes) I'm satisfied.

There's several reasons, which I bet you've likely picked out most of them. Pagecount is probably the top one. But that being said, assuming you guys are liking this form of multiclassing, we are committed to getting you every class (and new archetypes for each new class).

Paizo Employee Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?

Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Well I think this kills doing BOTH at the same time.

True. I don't see being able to build a classic Half-Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Cleric with this, at least not easily or being able to function as this across the level spectrum.

But I am willing to try the system as a whole and see how it works out.

Really interested to see how I could build some sort of Arcane Archer with this, especially with the new casting and action economy mechanics.


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This is very intriguing. I can't say I like it yet, because of the magnitude of the change making it difficult to analyze. In fact, lacking the full rule for at least two classes, I think trying to fully analyze is futile. I can just share a few feelings:
- The flexibility is very appealing. We can add as much or as little of the new class as we want.
- Dual casters become credible, in a way the mystic theurge never was.
- This allows so many ways to do a gish, it's amazing...
- The flip side is that it's not possible to really switch careers, as in "my rogue decided to make amends for her life of crime and become a cleric of Sarenrae". This closes off a number of narratives: Now we have "once a rogue, always a rogue".

On the whole, I think I'm warming up to the concept. At the very least, it's worth testing. Still, I think it would be good to add some sort of mechanism for those who wish to make a clean break with their past.


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So, is PF2's mascot going to be a centipede? Because that would be pretty metal, and it could upgrade to a millipede later on.

On a more serious note, multiclassing sharing the space of archefeats is going to cause them to interfere with each other in ways that I'm not super into. The stat requirements aren't horrible considering the the generous upgrades leveling gives, but they're still pretty restrictive.
I can see advantages to this, but it's going to frustrate me more than it's going to broaden my play style.


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Sean R wrote:

I like the flexibility. Not a fan of the feat-tax. Again, feat-tax to become multiclass. There seems to be a lot of feat tax for wanting to play concepts that are hybrids of others, something you could do in 1e easily without costing you other class or concept abilities.

This has been my biggest concern when everything was "Feat"ed up, was that feat taxes would tacked on for any character that wants to push outside the mold a bit.

Granted these are great abilities, and come in addition to your core class, but I've seen this used in other popular games to their detriment. At least, in this case, it allows for a broader selection that may or may not work.

Well you had a level-tax to multiclass before, this seems easier.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm on board. This sounds good.

I am a trifle disappointed that there are only four Classes covered in the playtest, but I understand why that might be, so as long as we eventually get every Class (and new Archetypes as we get new Classes) I'm satisfied.

There's several reasons, which I bet you've likely picked out most of them. Pagecount is probably the top one. But that being said, assuming you guys are liking this form of multiclassing, we are committed to getting you every class (and new archetypes for each new class).

within the playtest or after that? :P

Because I love it already - I really liked vmc (well at least many classes) but it was stiff and you were feat starved (if you werent a fighter) this opens up so many possibilities :D


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.

Cool, so martial classes are dead then. If you don't have spells, you can borrow them from a class who does. Sigh...


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?

Seconded.

I do like these, and hope that even if they ultimately backpedal and reinsitute traditional multiclassing, these remain in game as an option. As others have said, this neatly lets us hybrid without needing a whole new class to do it, which frees up some design space and lets the devs look forward instead of having to redo some of PF1's classes.

I'm sad that the monk dedication isn't in the playtest (that one actually might need the most playtesting out of the remaining core classes), and annoyed by the Dedication 2 restriction, but overall I would have done the same for these.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Moro wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
The problem with it is it limits the classes you can multiclass... and encourages people to play classes such as Bard, Alchemist, or Ranger and then take the Multiclass Archetype to get a core class.
From what I am reading the limited multiclass archetypes are for the playtest book only, and they expect to have all of the core classes' multiclass archetypes sorted out for the actual CRB release.
If you guys are finding these as flexible and effective as our playtesters so far, you can expect all twelve to appear in the CRB, yeah. The bard in my playtest game is loving spending only on feat on fighter dedication to get proficiency in martial weapons and all three categories of armor. Handy!

Now *that* sounds really interesting... really eager to check these rules.


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Something I think i like about this is that there is some seperation of what a class grants you from being that class vs cross classing into it. I see two big advantages to this.

1.Classes can be allowed to have cool powerful stuff without as much worry that another class would become too powerful with access to it, since it can only be obtained by being that class, or accessung it through the cross class archetype. I cant speak for the designers, but i imagine this opens up a lot of design space.

2. This alows for more fine tuned balancing of cross class combinations. If particular combinations or types of combinations turn out weak, feats can be added to address these issues without adding more power to combinations that are already powerful!


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Lanathar wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:

The nonzero dedication cost bugs me. I can't have e.g. a (Pirate Rogue) Cleric until high levels because I need to finish being either a rogue or a pirate first.

Also, RIP sheylinite Bard/Paladins.

How many of these have you seen? I am fascinated about the build idea and would like to hear more...

Pally 2 on anything with a Cha dependence is a massive boost to saves in PF1, with this particular case also giving you a nice reach weapon that takes fewer feats for AoOs than a whip would. Virtuous Bravo archetype gives you swashbuckler stuff, you don't care about heavy armour (what with ASF from bard), and pairs with Bladed Brush to let you run Dex over Str on your glaive. Also, Cha over Int for combat feats if you want to use your reach to trip.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I love this. I would like to have seen the fighter or rogue feats too, to see what a non-caster looks like.

Also will be interesting to see the difference between a fighter with the wizard multiclass and a wizard with the fighter multiclass. Being able to build it both ways makes it even more flexible. (Would liked to have seen that for the 1/2 race feats as well...)

I do think the spell-casting progression for the wizard multiclass is a little stingy, but only slightly so. I'll reserve judgement until I see the full rules.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.

It would be cool to get a non-casting healing archetype at some point as a way to do something similar without relying on spells and a deity.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
Cool, so martial classes are dead then. If you don't have spells, you can borrow them from a class who does. Sigh...

On the other hand, now people can just show up and play what they want and if we find the party is missing healing, or skills, or whatever then someone can just spend a few feats on it and still keep all their class features and most of their feats.


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Moro wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Well I think this kills doing BOTH at the same time.

True. I don't see being able to build a classic Half-Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Cleric with this, at least not easily or being able to function as this across the level spectrum.

But I am willing to try the system as a whole and see how it works out.

Really interested to see how I could build some sort of Arcane Archer with this, especially with the new casting and action economy mechanics.

I... I... I hadn't even thought of Arcane Archer yet. Oh. Boy. I have my second character concept now. Thank you very much. :)


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
It would be cool to get a non-casting healing archetype at some point as a way to do something similar without relying on spells and a deity.

Yeah, having your Barbarian serve as the healer by multiclassing into Cleric is not exactly what I had in mind when you mentioned a Barbarian healer. I mean sure, if you're willing to multiclass into Cleric I sure hope you can serve as the healer, but I was sort of assuming you meant it was possible to serve as the healer just via Skill Feats or something.


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Mbertorch wrote:
Moro wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Well I think this kills doing BOTH at the same time.

True. I don't see being able to build a classic Half-Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Cleric with this, at least not easily or being able to function as this across the level spectrum.

But I am willing to try the system as a whole and see how it works out.

Really interested to see how I could build some sort of Arcane Archer with this, especially with the new casting and action economy mechanics.

I... I... I hadn't even thought of Arcane Archer yet. Oh. Boy. I have my second character concept now. Thank you very much. :)

I mean you can build an Archer that uses spells or a Wizard that's good with a bow.

But as of right now, I don't see how you can make an Actual Arcane Archer.

Liberty's Edge

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I really like this idea in theory, and want to see more from it. My big concern is Fighter, though.

Presumably the dedication feats are class feats, which fighters get every level, yes? So what's stopping a fighter from doing everything and still having some class feats for their own base class?

They get their weapon proficiency increase baseline so they wouldn't need to feat out for that, meanwhile they also have 8th level spellcasting in 2 other classes, if they'd like, and some rogue skills. I know there's a dedication limit for the feats, but still, 20 levels of class feats doesn't make that feel totally like a stopgap.

I'm absolutely on board with this and I want to see where it goes, as I said, I'm just voicing concerns I have. I know we haven't seen the full system yet and there may be reasons NOT to be that monster I mentioned building above, but it's worrisome to imagine it'd be easily achievable for fighter; does that make sense?


I have never been a fan of multiclassing but this looks goods enough. Making classes also be archetypes that can be taken by any other class is a good compromise that will not cut features like spellcasting, certainly is an improvement over VMC from Unchained. BTW this approach reminds me of prestige classes for Bard, Ranger, and Paladin in Unearthed Arcana.


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ALright, It's confirmed my Barb (or fighter) will be throwing lightning bolts.

Hopefully to finish off that aberration he just tossed into orbit.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Sean R wrote:

I like the flexibility. Not a fan of the feat-tax. Again, feat-tax to become multiclass. There seems to be a lot of feat tax for wanting to play concepts that are hybrids of others, something you could do in 1e easily without costing you other class or concept abilities.

This has been my biggest concern when everything was "Feat"ed up, was that feat taxes would tacked on for any character that wants to push outside the mold a bit.

Granted these are great abilities, and come in addition to your core class, but I've seen this used in other popular games to their detriment. At least, in this case, it allows for a broader selection that may or may not work.

I think the word "feat tax" is something we've begun to use in such different and varied ways that it's in danger of losing its meaning. I know I'm guilty of using it broader than most (I consider a feat that increases your numbers in your main shtick to be a tax, compared to just giving you better numbers for free, though weirdly I discovered in the Starfinder early playtests that people like those kind of taxes as long as there are very few, rather than having none).

If you spend feats to get great abilities, is it a tax? In many cases, you're getting something beyond what you would receive for spending your feats in other ways (Fighter Dedication would take 5 feats to replicate for a wizard, and an average of around 3 feats for most other characters).

I do think I get what you're saying, which is wondering whether the currency of feats will work for this purpose. I'd contend that the currency of levels is usually more pricey a cost to pay to your overall character progression.

Sovereign Court

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Disk Elemental wrote:

I'm very disappointed that this is the direction 2e has chosen to go.

Multi-classing was one of the most interesting and skill-expressive mechanics in 1e, allowing players to create a character that's both unique and wholly their own. Reducing such mechanics to a handful of pre-defined packages is a massive loss for everyone who enjoyed the customization of 1e. If anything is reverted in playtesting, I hope this is it.

Unfortunately, multiclassing in PF1 often lead to characters that could not stack up to single class characters in terms of relative power compared to the APL, just like Prestige classes weakened a character. Hopefully, the archetype system in PF2 allows for abilities that are in line with single class options in terms of usefulness at their given levels. At least I think that's what the designers are looking for.

And does anyone else now have "Leeloo Dallas Multi Class" stuck in their heads now?

--Vrock & Load


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rooneg wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
It would be cool to get a non-casting healing archetype at some point as a way to do something similar without relying on spells and a deity.
Yeah, having your Barbarian serve as the healer by multiclassing into Cleric is not exactly what I had in mind when you mentioned a Barbarian healer. I mean sure, if you're willing to multiclass into Cleric I sure hope you can serve as the healer, but I was sort of assuming you meant it was possible to serve as the healer just via Skill Feats or something.

This just in, people still need to select Cleric for all their healing needs.

Oh you wanted to play a full Barbarian? Well too bad, we need healing and you're the only one that has a feat to spare. Besides, the Wizard/Barb does your job better so get to healing.

The above is hyperbole but yes I too am sad if the answer to "Every class can cover healing now" is just "Splice in the actual Healing class onto your own".


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
kaineblade83 wrote:

I really like this idea in theory, and want to see more from it. My big concern is Fighter, though.

Presumably the dedication feats are class feats, which fighters get every level, yes? So what's stopping a fighter from doing everything and still having some class feats for their own base class?

It's possible their bonus feats have to be fighter feats, but if not, red mage here we come!


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kaineblade83 wrote:

I really like this idea in theory, and want to see more from it. My big concern is Fighter, though.

Presumably the dedication feats are class feats, which fighters get every level, yes? So what's stopping a fighter from doing everything and still having some class feats for their own base class?

They get their weapon proficiency increase baseline so they wouldn't need to feat out for that, meanwhile they also have 8th level spellcasting in 2 other classes, if they'd like, and some rogue skills. I know there's a dedication limit for the feats, but still, 20 levels of class feats doesn't make that feel totally like a stopgap.

I'm absolutely on board with this and I want to see where it goes, as I said, I'm just voicing concerns I have. I know we haven't seen the full system yet and there may be reasons NOT to be that monster I mentioned building above, but it's worrisome to imagine it'd be easily achievable for fighter; does that make sense?

We're worried the Fighter is going to outdo the other classes in something? Well, congratulations, Paizo. You made the Fighter not the worst. That is (zero sarcasm, btw) rather commendable.


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Now I want to build the nerdiest of all wizards who is so dedicated to his wizardry that he took the Dedication Feat to prove it.

And the Fighteriest Fighter. And the Rogue to end all Rogues. And a Cleric of Desna AND Cayden that ships the 2.

I think there is potential in allowing multiclass archetypes to be taken by characters with that class. But I dunno, I don't have the book.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Called it!


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technarken wrote:

Shouldn't one of the prerequisites of Wizard Dedication be "Not a Wizard"? Because now I want to build the nerdiest of all wizards who is so dedicated to his wizardry that he took the Dedication Feat to prove it.

And the Fighteriest Fighter. And the Rogue to end all Rogues. And a Cleric of Desna AND Cayden that ships the 2.

I mean they did say in the blog it does require you to not be the class.


MerlinCross wrote:
technarken wrote:

Shouldn't one of the prerequisites of Wizard Dedication be "Not a Wizard"? Because now I want to build the nerdiest of all wizards who is so dedicated to his wizardry that he took the Dedication Feat to prove it.

And the Fighteriest Fighter. And the Rogue to end all Rogues. And a Cleric of Desna AND Cayden that ships the 2.

I mean they did say in the blog it does require you to not be the class.

Edited, I just realized I missed that in the blog.

Scarab Sages

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King of Vrock wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:

I'm very disappointed that this is the direction 2e has chosen to go.

Multi-classing was one of the most interesting and skill-expressive mechanics in 1e, allowing players to create a character that's both unique and wholly their own. Reducing such mechanics to a handful of pre-defined packages is a massive loss for everyone who enjoyed the customization of 1e. If anything is reverted in playtesting, I hope this is it.

Unfortunately, multiclassing in PF1 often lead to characters that could not stack up to single class characters in terms of relative power compared to the APL, just like Prestige classes weakened a character. Hopefully, the archetype system in PF2 allows for abilities that are in line with single class options in terms of usefulness at their given levels. At least I think that's what the designers are looking for.

And does anyone else now have "Leeloo Dallas Multi Class" stuck in their heads now?

--Vrock & Load

More importantly, however, was the multiclass abominations that broke the game are now no longer possible.

Liberty's Edge

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
Cool, so martial classes are dead then. If you don't have spells, you can borrow them from a class who does. Sigh...

Actually...based on a bit of math in my head, it sounds like Multiclass Clerics don't get anywhere near the spells to serve as primary healers without some support from non-multiclass stuff (and, indeed, Mark previously mentioned that she also had Battlefield Medic and quite possibly other Medicine Feats). Presuming there's a Feat for Channel Ergy, that would help, but I'm still dubious that it's enough on its own.

My guess is that the character in question uses Cleric stuff for in-combat healing, and more skill based stuff outside it.

So I wouldn't assume that 'martial classes are dead'. They could be, but I'd wait and have a look at the Medicine Skill Feats before making assumptions.

kaineblade83 wrote:

I really like this idea in theory, and want to see more from it. My big concern is Fighter, though.

Presumably the dedication feats are class feats, which fighters get every level, yes? So what's stopping a fighter from doing everything and still having some class feats for their own base class?

Uh...Fighters don't get more Class Feats than anyone else (well, technically they do, due to getting ones you can select every day as Class Features at 9th and 15th). They certainly don't get them every level.


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So the one concern I have is how multiclassing interacts with archetypes via the dedication system. So I definitely like the idea of universal archetypes as "things you buy with feats" so we don't have to print a dozen different nautical archetypes, and I love the idea of prestige classes as archetype pools, so it makes sense that multiclassing works similarly (no reason to print a mystic theurge, when people can just multiclass as wizard clerics or cleric wizards).

But I hope when we get traditional style archetypes which change or reflavor a class, they don't get in the way of dedication based archetypes.


Tallow wrote:
King of Vrock wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:

I'm very disappointed that this is the direction 2e has chosen to go.

Multi-classing was one of the most interesting and skill-expressive mechanics in 1e, allowing players to create a character that's both unique and wholly their own. Reducing such mechanics to a handful of pre-defined packages is a massive loss for everyone who enjoyed the customization of 1e. If anything is reverted in playtesting, I hope this is it.

Unfortunately, multiclassing in PF1 often lead to characters that could not stack up to single class characters in terms of relative power compared to the APL, just like Prestige classes weakened a character. Hopefully, the archetype system in PF2 allows for abilities that are in line with single class options in terms of usefulness at their given levels. At least I think that's what the designers are looking for.

And does anyone else now have "Leeloo Dallas Multi Class" stuck in their heads now?

--Vrock & Load

More importantly, however, was the multiclass abominations that broke the game are now no longer possible.

Amazing that a system that leads to 'trash' characters also lets you break the game.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Rot Grub wrote:
So the big news is what is NOT talked about here, am I right? That PF2 does away with stacking levels from different classes like Lego blocks? Or am I making a wrong assumption?

They never really stacked like lego blocks tho. They were more like multiple lego towers all seperate from each other.

Paizo Employee Designer

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rooneg wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
It would be cool to get a non-casting healing archetype at some point as a way to do something similar without relying on spells and a deity.
Yeah, having your Barbarian serve as the healer by multiclassing into Cleric is not exactly what I had in mind when you mentioned a Barbarian healer. I mean sure, if you're willing to multiclass into Cleric I sure hope you can serve as the healer, but I was sort of assuming you meant it was possible to serve as the healer just via Skill Feats or something.

She had a variety of options for healing (She rarely had more than one heal from it, but she could if she wanted). Her cleric multiclass wasn't the main part. It was one piece of the puzzle.

EDIT: Ninjaed by DMW, who once again has analyzed the blogs so thoroughly he's managed to figure it out without the books yet!


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rooneg wrote:
Yeah, having your Barbarian serve as the healer by multiclassing into Cleric is not exactly what I had in mind when you mentioned a Barbarian healer. I mean sure, if you're willing to multiclass into Cleric I sure hope you can serve as the healer, but I was sort of assuming you meant it was possible to serve as the healer just via Skill Feats or something.

I think the big difference between PF1 and PF2 here is that in a Barbarian 2/Cleric 10 cannot really be considered a Barbarian so much as "a cleric with a rage pool", whereas a Barbarian who spends half her class feats on cleric stuff is still very much a Barbarian.

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