Ranger Class Preview

Monday, July 2, 2018

Rangers have a long tradition in heroic adventure. Whether they're portrayed as lone striders keeping the edges of the wilderness free of the threats that lurch forth from the world's shadows, as hunters tracking down fugitives or beasts, or as skilled archers serving as a scouting force for a local lord or group of village elders, rangers have a special place in our fantastical imagination.

For the Pathfinder Playtest, we decided to cleave closer to the core principles of the ranger—a rough and tumble warrior in the wild, possibly of the wild himself. Because of this, the most significant change we made to the class was that it no longer has spellcasting ability, at least as a default. Of course, this doesn't mean we have to abandon this aspect of the Pathfinder First Edition ranger forever. Because of the way classes are now structured, it would be easy to create a spellcasting build of the ranger later using Spell Points (like the paladin), but for the Playtest, we are trying out a a spell-less ranger.

But enough of what the ranger doesn't have. Let's take a look at what he does.

Ranger Features

First and foremost, the ranger is a hunter. In Pathfinder First Edition, you picked creature types or subtypes that you were skilled at hunting. There are few things more frustrating than playing a ranger who rarely—or worst of all, never—encounters their favored enemies. It also led to some players who tended to play in more human-centric campaigns picking the human subtype, even if their backgrounds may have pointed to better choices for favored enemies.

This time we made the ranger hunting ability a bit more flexible, based on some popular ideas from the guide archetype and the slayer's studied target. At 1st level, rangers gain the Hunt Target feature.

[[A]] Hunt Target

Ranger

Requirements You can see or hear the target.

You designate a single creature within 100 feet as your target and focus your attacks against that creature. While hunting that creature, you gain benefits for focusing your attacks. As long as all your attacks in a round are against the target you're hunting, the multiple attack penalty you take on the second attack is -4 (-3 with an agile weapon) instead of -5, and -8 (-6 with an agile weapon) instead of -10 on the third and any further attacks in the round. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks against the target you're hunting within your second range increment. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

You can have only one creature designated as the target of your hunt at a time. If you use Hunt Target against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new target gains the designation. In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

There are many class feats and some higher-level abilities that augment the ranger's Hunt Target. For example, at 17th level, the masterful hunter feature decreases the ranger's multiple attack penalty to -3 (or -2 with agile weapon) with his second attack and -6 (or -4 with agile weapons) on his third or further attack, and he can ignore the penalty against the target of his hunt in the second or third range increment, assuming that he has at least master proficiency in the weapon he is. Speaking of which, like the fighter, the ranger gains weapon mastery for a group of weapons, though he gains it at 13th level instead of at 3rd level like the fighter. At 19th level, the ranger gains the swift target feature, which allows him to use Hunt Target as a free action triggered before he makes his first Strike each round, so he's never without a target to hunt! The specifics of the Hunt Target ability make the ranger excel at a variety of combat styles, especially his traditional two-weapon fighting (since you can decrease the multiple attack penalty with agile attacks to be incredibly small) and archery (since you eliminate some of the most common ranged increment penalties). Of course, a ranger with a less traditional style, like a greatsword with a reduced multiple attack penalty, works great too!

Other class features allow the ranger to stalk and avoid his foes. At 5th level, he gains trackless step. At 7th level, he gains evasion (followed by improved evasion at 15th level). He gains nature's edge at 9th level, which allows him to treat enemies in natural difficult terrain or in difficult terrain resulting from a snare (more on snares later!) as flat-footed. Come 11th level, he gains the wild stride feature, which allows him to ignore or minimize the effects of difficult terrain.

Ranger Feats

Class feats, of course, determine the flavor of individuals within a class, and the ranger is no different. Specific ranger feats allow him to gain an animal companion at the same progression as a druid's, though potentially with special benefits that only a ranger can obtain. Other feats will enable him to further focus on his weapon choice, including a whole string of feats that allow him to specialize in two-weapon fighting.

Some fun feats allow the ranger to use his knowledge and senses to aid his allies as well as himself. Here are a couple of my favorites.

Monster Hunter Feat 1

Ranger

When you critically succeed to identify a target you're hunting with Recall Knowledge, you (and your allies, if you tell them) gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against it, but not against other creatures of that species. The creature is bolstered.

[[F]] Scout's Warning Feat 4

Ranger

Trigger You are about to roll Perception for initiative.

You audibly or visually warn your allies of danger, granting them a +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls.

Harkening back to the hunter's bond class feature in Pathfinder First Edition, these feats allow the ranger to support the rest of the group with increased flexibility in how he chooses to do so, and these are just a few. The ranger can expand on Monster Hunter to grant even more benefits with a successful Recall Knowledge and even share the benefits of Hunt Target with other PCs (pretty much any martial class will love this benefit). And while flanking-savvy fighters might be a rogue's traditional best friend, the 12th-level Distracting Shot feat allows the ranger who hits a target with two ranged attacks in the same turn to leave that critter flat-footed until the start of the ranger's next turn. This helps fast rogues bring the pain quickly and farther away from more heavily armored support.

Another group of feats allows you to create snares. (Told you I'd get to that!)

Snares

Like alchemy, the ability to create snares is granted by a general feat (Snare Crafting). And like alchemists, rangers have the potential to lift general snare crafting to greater heights.

What are snares? Well, they're small portable hazards, very similar to traps, which can be set up in a short period of time (usually 1 minute). While it's unlikely that you will set up a snare in the midst of combat, they are perfect tools to arrange a battleground to your advantage. For instance, remember the nature's edge class feature that allows you to treat enemies in difficult terrain as flat-footed? Here's the most basic snare that creates difficult terrain.

Slowing Snare Snare 1

Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 2 gp

A square with this snare becomes difficult terrain when the first creature enters it, and then it is destroyed.

Other snares set off alarms, trip, or deal damage to those entering the area of a snare. Grab some alchemical items, and you can deal even more damage with a snare.

Freezing Snare Snare 8

Cold, Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 50 gp

You set a trio of liquid ice bombs to explode in unison when a creature enters the freezing snare's square. The target must attempt a DC 22 Reflexsave.

Success The target takes 1d8 cold damage.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.

Failure The target takes 3d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Critical Failure The target takes 6d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Craft Requirements three vials of liquid ice

Ranger feats that deal with snares allow you to learn more of them as your Crafting rank increases, lets you set them up faster (even in the middle of combat), and increases snares' DCs to match your class DC. Always make sure that your allies know where you hid your snares, or no bonus to attack rolls or initiative that you grant them will make up for the damage and humiliation you might cause.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Staffan Johansson's post immediately above has the link.

Ah missed as I thought the 'here' was a mistake for 'there' as I'm colorblind and the link color is very hard to distinguish without some kind of indicator.

As to the contents... Meh... Didn't alter my thought on the matter.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Even in the blurry picture, you can distinguish between the Action and the Reaction.

Not really. I can tell they are different but I can't tell you that they are actions, reactions or something else. there is a difference between telling them apart and figuring out exactly what each means.


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Ranger has always been a sort of weird hybrid class. Seeing an attempt to include it in a modular system like this has me wondering if Ranger is going to be built up as a real class, or end up being something better built on a different class chassis through multiclassing or archetypes. I'm not seeing anything here that is both distinct and valuable enough to warrant using the class as your base class.

In the Hunt Target class feature, the ability says that the accuracy increase happens if all attacks are against your chosen target. It doesn't specify whether or not the attacks need to be exclusively against your chosen target, or if your attacks must include your chosen target.

I highly recommend an improvised snare feat. Something that allows the ranger to attack the environment to make it difficult terrain. Shooting down a chandelier, a branch, or throwing a large object into the target's way, would all make good short duration no setup trap like effects. If Rangers are going to be masters of their environment, it's probably a good idea to give them ways to interact with it either more quickly or more uniquely than others.

I know some would hate it, and it makes the distinct ranger problem worse, but is it really a good idea to focus the ranger on nature like this rather than focus on pursuit, hunting and environment abuse more generally? With the nature focus the Ranger is distinct, but without it we can cover the inquisitor and slayer with the ranger class really easily. Either that or we need core class ability altering archetypes which sets us back a bit on the modularity.


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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Symbols like these are easier to scan for in a large and complicated stat block.
I'll take your word that it's easier for you. IMO, I can't see how "◊>>" is easier than "2" in a block, square or triangle... Then we invent a new symbol for reactions. Then one for free actions... Then... :P
Did you click the image link? Even in the blurry picture, you can distinguish between the Action and the Reaction. Were those numbers or letters inside of a shape, you'd have to do a lot more squinting.
No. It would be hard for me to click on a link I never saw. Any idea where I might find such a link?

The word "Here" in my post. Apparently the dark blue of a link is not too differentiated from the black of regular text on these boards. Anyhow, here's the URL: https://imgur.com/6NQAzmr.


Roswynn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if Rangers can get sudden charge, because the mental image of a Dwarf Ranger pointing at someone and shouting "YOU!" then charging them with axe raised high is deeply amusing to me.

I mean, you can always Hunt, Stride, and Strike but ... stubby little legs.

Sounds more like a barb to me... you know, fluffwise. But sure, why not.

Or, something that could help even rangers who want to be casters too - multiclassing. I mean, we still don't know how it works, but multiclassing into druid would give some spells back to the ranger, and multiclassing into fighter would give it sudden charge. You wanna make really strong potions and possibly save some snare money? Multiclass as an alchemist.

They don't even let you dip into an archetype and instead force you to progress X number of feats before you can choose another archetype or prestige class equivalent. No way multiclassing is going to be less restrictive. In fact I expect we will get an opening feat (I.e. archetype dedication feat) and then be able to take some class feats (and perhaps special multiclass feats for that class) and be required to take X feats before you can multivlass into another class or take an archetype.

The days where you can be a Ranger (trapper) 2/Rogue (Spy) 6/Fighter (Weapon Master) 12 will be gone. 5e will look freeform in comparison.

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Even in the blurry picture, you can distinguish between the Action and the Reaction.
Not really. I can tell they are different but I can't tell you that they are actions, reactions or something else. there is a difference between telling them apart and figuring out exactly what each means.

All I asked was whether you could tell they were different.

If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
jasin wrote:
So something like 5E's "bounded accuracy", as a rule no attack bonuses from broadly available feats, spells, and conditions? That's a pretty big change! Was this discussed in more detail somewhere?

There are some spells that grant it, but they do appear more limited (for example, Bless is still 1st level and still grants a +1 to hit, but costs one action every round to maintain).

And it's in some ways mathematically similar to bounded accuracy, but a maximal Fighter goes from +6 to hit at 1st level, to +35 at 20th, so it's pretty different in terms of actually being bounded.

Really, what they've said they're aiming for is for it to be bounded within each individual level

Being bound by level vs by character isn't really THAT different. All it means is that monsters is kept and in fact monsters level out of being useful threats at a faster pace. It really is bounded accuracy with a +level modifier.


KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.

As I understand it, the glyph for one action is not exactly a filled diamond. It's more of a tiny diamond with an attached chevron, with extra chevrons meaning more actions. Something like this: https://imgur.com/FjQJcQd


graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.
If they don't in the actual playtest, then that will be something I'll note and complain about. I don't want a superfluous glyph in an effort to prevent 'superfluous' useful info. If all I get to figure out number and type of actions I use are glyphs, this isn't the game for me.

Glyphs aren't difficult to read (for most). Not are having all of your class abilities and magic items printed on Magic the Gathering style cards. Nor is having Every* Single** Thing*** a keyword. It's an aesthetic design. I certainly didn't miss these things when I moved from 4e to OF. Instead I enjoyed the natural English approach and didn't fins class abilities or monsters harder to read. Their return in PF2e is not a welcome one.

*Every is a universal keyword that refers to all creatures, feats, items and spells in the game.
**Single is a keyword that refers to one thing .
***Thing is a keyword typically attributed to items and not people or creatures.


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MerlinCross wrote:

Look I just want to be able to shoot the snares at targets if possible.

Go all Green Arrow on enemies.

I want that boxing glove arrow and I don't care what I have to do to get it.

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Staffan Johansson wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.
As I understand it, the glyph for one action is not exactly a filled diamond. It's more of a tiny diamond with an attached chevron, with extra chevrons meaning more actions. Something like this: https://imgur.com/FjQJcQd

Yes, but instead of the larger chevron, the extra chevrons are the same as the attached chevron, leaving peaks and valleys to better distinguish the number of chevrons in the glyph.

Alas, I'm trying to describe an image via text, and from a distance or at a glance that first image looks like a single diamond, the two action glyph looks like two overlapping diamonds, and the three action glyph looks like three overlapping diamonds.


KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.

The image is too small/blurry for me to make out what the symbols are, just that they are different. I'll take your word there is a diamond in there.


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I'm glad spells are being removed as a standard feature for Rangers. While still allowing it as an option. I don't feel it really fits what they're generally all about. In PF1 I'd almost always use the Skirmisher archetype for my Ranger builds.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Look I just want to be able to shoot the snares at targets if possible.

Go all Green Arrow on enemies.

I want that boxing glove arrow and I don't care what I have to do to get it.

+1 Merciful Arrow

This +1 arrow is magically enchanted, by placing a boxing glove over the tip, causing it to deal non-lethal damage

Crafting requirements
Level 3. The Crafter must supply one Boxing Glove.

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.
The image is too small/blurry for me to make out what the symbols are, just that they are different. I'll take your word there is a diamond in there.

Your prescription must be impressive. It is much easier to identify the shape next to the word 'melee' than the word itself.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Being bound by level vs by character isn't really THAT different. All it means is that monsters is kept and in fact monsters level out of being useful threats at a faster pace. It really is bounded accuracy with a +level modifier.

Except that the whole point of 5e's bounded accuracy is that bonuses and DCs remain reasonably flat from level 1 to 20, with the main thing determining combat prowess being damage and hit points (as well as whatever tricks you have up your sleeve).

A 5th level 5e fighter probably has +1 AC (better armor), +2 to hit (+1 for proficency bonus and +1 for a stat increase), and double the damage (because of a second attack) over a 1st level fighter. So, while a single goblin is not the credible threat it was at 1st level, a dozen or so of them certainly are. That means that as a DM, I can still use goblins in my adventures at 5th level. Perhaps not exclusively, and I'll certainly need a lot more of them, but they aren't wasted.

While we don't know all the PF2 math yet, my guess is that a 5th level PF2 fighter will be about +6 to both attacks and AC over a 1st level PF2 fighter (+4 for level, likely 1 proficiency rank in both weapons and armor, and perhaps a stat increase as well). He will also be doing about twice as much damage as the 1st level character, because by 5th level a fighter probably has a magic weapon in PF (but in 5e, that's by no means guaranteed, and the system isn't based around it). So for the PF2 fighter, regular goblins are just not threats anymore. He will wade through them, and slaughter them by the dozens. There's almost no point in having goblins around in a 5th level adventure unless they're some sort of goblin champions with the equivalent of PC levels.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.
The image is too small/blurry for me to make out what the symbols are, just that they are different. I'll take your word there is a diamond in there.
Your prescription must be impressive. It is much easier to identify the shape next to the word 'melee' than the word itself.

Thanks for being condescending... :P

I don't know WHAT you're looking at the image with but on my mobile device the ONLY reason I know those symbols are different is the empty space in the middle of the top one. As to the words, grim reaper and creature are the only readable ones for me.

And to be clear, I can see perfectly fine close up I just lack the ability to magnify and clear up images naturally. ;)


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Being bound by level vs by character isn't really THAT different. All it means is that monsters is kept and in fact monsters level out of being useful threats at a faster pace. It really is bounded accuracy with a +level modifier.

Except that the whole point of 5e's bounded accuracy is that bonuses and DCs remain reasonably flat from level 1 to 20, with the main thing determining combat prowess being damage and hit points (as well as whatever tricks you have up your sleeve).

A 5th level 5e fighter probably has +1 AC (better armor), +2 to hit (+1 for proficency bonus and +1 for a stat increase), and double the damage (because of a second attack) over a 1st level fighter. So, while a single goblin is not the credible threat it was at 1st level, a dozen or so of them certainly are. That means that as a DM, I can still use goblins in my adventures at 5th level. Perhaps not exclusively, and I'll certainly need a lot more of them, but they aren't wasted.

While we don't know all the PF2 math yet, my guess is that a 5th level PF2 fighter will be about +6 to both attacks and AC over a 1st level PF2 fighter (+4 for level, likely 1 proficiency rank in both weapons and armor, and perhaps a stat increase as well). He will also be doing about twice as much damage as the 1st level character, because by 5th level a fighter probably has a magic weapon in PF (but in 5e, that's by no means guaranteed, and the system isn't based around it). So for the PF2 fighter, regular goblins are just not threats anymore. He will wade through them, and slaughter them by the dozens. There's almost no point in having goblins around in a 5th level adventure unless they're some sort of goblin champions with the equivalent of PC levels.

Yup that is about right. The math of the game assumes a very different scaling in the world. In 5e rules 221 lvl 1 archers can on average take out an ancient red dragon in one round (assuming lvl 1 fighters with 16 dex and archer fighting style). By Pathfinder rules an ancient red dragon is literally unstoppable by low level characters. Big threats are bigger but small threats become insignificant as the PCs grow in power. Different base math will result in different types of stories.

EDIT: If you drop the efficacy of the archers Dex 12 and just +2 proficiency (no fighting style just like a basic ass soldier) it only takes 705 to kill an ancient red dragon in one round assuming average damage. For reference at the battle of Agincourt King Henry deployed 7000 Longbowmen almost enough to kill 10 ancient red dragons every six seconds until they run out of arrows. Obviously this is beyond the intended scope of the game but it illustrates the point of scaling. By contrast in Pathfinder a lvl 20 fighter can probably kill those 7000 longbowmen by themselves. ... I may have lost the plot in playing with spreadsheets.


Staffan Johansson wrote:
Except that the whole point of 5e's bounded accuracy is that bonuses and DCs remain reasonably flat from level 1 to 20, with the main thing determining combat prowess being damage and hit points (as well as whatever tricks you have up your sleeve).

D&D 5e was a reaction to D&D 4e. In D&D 4e we saw the exact same philosophy we have in PF2e, a universal bonus that was based on level (in 4e it was +1/2 level vs PF2e +level). It resulted in monsters quickly scaling out of common use in adventures with the need to apply templates and such to try to keep using them. The most egregious example I can remember is a feybound crocodile (which was a level 11 version crocodile in MM2) and shadowgoblins (again aimed at play for level 11-20). It felt shallow, unsatisfying and ultimately not very enjoyable. So with 5e they kept the same principal (universal bonus to everything) but reduced it from +1/2 level to +2 to +7.

The goal in 4e was the same as 5e was the same as PF2e. To provide everyone with a much smaller range in which their bonuses could vary from. The only difference is the rate at which monsters and threats stop being credible. We'll see if PF2e manages to make it more satisfying then 4e did.

[EDIT]: All this was a tangent off a tangent off a tangent. So we should probably move this into another thread if we want to continue.


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Isn’t monster hunter sort of a version of favored enemy where the mechanics match the description?

In PF1, you could have Favored Enemy Humanoid (Human) and no Knowledge Local. You couldn’t tell much about the person other than where to hit them for most damage. It also has the odd cases where the Ranger knows an enemy can’t be human because they didn’t get their bonus!

With Monster Hunter, your knowledge of creatures is what gives you (and others) the advantage. I don’t care much for the name — personally I would have called it Know Thy Enemy. Still, I think it fits better with the concept of having special training against certain creature types.


BretI wrote:

Isn’t monster hunter sort of a version of favored enemy where the mechanics match the description?

In PF1, you could have Favored Enemy Humanoid (Human) and no Knowledge Local. You couldn’t tell much about the person other than where to hit them for most damage. It also has the odd cases where the Ranger knows an enemy can’t be human because they didn’t get their bonus!

With Monster Hunter, your knowledge of creatures is what gives you (and others) the advantage. I don’t care much for the name — personally I would have called it Know Thy Enemy. Still, I think it fits better with the concept of having special training against certain creature types.

The for-one-attack and one-target limitations make it seem really odd. Like you know how to hit it right now, but it'll adapt to your strategy next round and be able to shore up all its weaknesses.


Tholomyes wrote:
Yeah, but [favored enemy] rewarded you going +2->+4/+2->+6/+2/+2->+8/+2/+2/+2->+10/+2/+2/+2/+2, rather than anything like +6/+4/+4/+2/+2

You could have it be a universal +X bonus to damage that you get to apply to more and more creatures, so you get +10 to 5 creatures instead of +10 to one and +2 to four. You could assume at 1st level that the +2 will only apply some of the time whereas by the time they've selected 5 creatures you could then assume it's applying to most of their attacks (and scale the bonus appropriately). With retraining rules baked into core there's even less punishment for choosing the "wrong" favored enemy.

Of course, that breaks PF2e's philosophy of not having big modifiers to damage and instead having +[W]. So you could keep it at +2 damage but it simply be something that gets applied to a broader range of creatures.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Yeah, but [favored enemy] rewarded you going +2->+4/+2->+6/+2/+2->+8/+2/+2/+2->+10/+2/+2/+2/+2, rather than anything like +6/+4/+4/+2/+2
You could have it be a universal +X bonus to damage that you get to apply to more and more creatures, so you get +10 to 5 creatures instead of +10 to one and +2 to four. You could assume at 1st level that the +2 will only apply some of the time whereas by the time they've selected 5 creatures you could then assume it's applying to most of their attacks (and scale the bonus appropriately). With retraining rules baked into core there's even less punishment for choosing the "wrong" favored enemy.

For the first aspect of this, I'll grant you, as I've never really been much of a fan of keeping a list of differing modifiers for favored enemy, not that I played ranger much, but I definitely balk at retraining as the solutions to problems. For me, I don't like the idea of retraining outside of its use for players who realize 'wait, this feat I chose actually isn't really doing what I wanted it to do' to let them make minor revisions in service to their enjoyment of the game. I don't like the notion of retraining to get the benefits of specialization without the limitations of specialization.


uh sounds good, like more tactician now.

The only thing i would be worried about is that at 20th lvl you want me to try to hurt a tarrasque with a d8 of damage


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Juda de Kerioth wrote:

uh sounds good, like more tactician now.

The only thing i would be worried about is that at 20th lvl you want me to try to hurt a tarrasque with a d8 of damage

How do you mean? Do you mean with the snare? Because that's only an 8th level snare, and presumably by 20th level, you have a better trick up your sleeve.

Shadow Lodge

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Staffan Johansson wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Yeah, that's all subsumed in the Survival skill. I've never seen any Ranger in popular fiction setting exploding traps to kill pursers outside of Rambo.

Three words: World. Of. Warcraft. Traps used to be a pretty big part of the Hunter's toolkit in WOW, and they still are for a certain type of them.

And sure, having the ranger class as a whole based on WOW would be a bad idea, but it's nice if a WOW player can build a WoW-style character using the Pathfinder material.

Horizon: Zero Dawn also had a playstyle where you pretty much had to lure the larger, more dangerous machines into traps you ad placed, be they trip wires or bombs.


Tholomyes wrote:
Juda de Kerioth wrote:

uh sounds good, like more tactician now.

The only thing i would be worried about is that at 20th lvl you want me to try to hurt a tarrasque with a d8 of damage

How do you mean? Do you mean with the snare? Because that's only an 8th level snare, and presumably by 20th level, you have a better trick up your sleeve.

I mean regarding Trapper archetype from UM; you were doing a d8+wis mod in a trap... at 20th lvl


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After reading through the Ranger preview again, I would like to say it would be great to see Favored Enemy return as a Ranger Feat. That way we could keep an iconic ability (one that makes far more sense than spells), but make it simply another option.

Shadow Lodge

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Favored Enemy without an attack bonus would be nice. I say no attack bonus because then Hunt Target still has use.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Look I just want to be able to shoot the snares at targets if possible.

Go all Green Arrow on enemies.

I want that boxing glove arrow and I don't care what I have to do to get it.

There was a Ranger or Hunter archetype that could shoot traps at enemies. And while I do like odd ideas, I felt what it gave up wasn't worth it given the traps/snares we have now.

If they upgrade the traps and let us maybe shoot them(Even with negatives), that'd be nice to see. Though I hope I won't have to dip too much into Alchemy to make traps.

Liberty's Edge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Being bound by level vs by character isn't really THAT different. All it means is that monsters is kept and in fact monsters level out of being useful threats at a faster pace. It really is bounded accuracy with a +level modifier.

Er...yes? That's pretty much what I was saying. It's mathematically similar but results in a very different world and feel due to the +Level.


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I've liked some of the suggestions about favoured enemy as feats, and I agree that it is thematically great.

I have always associated it as a representative of the ranger's experience encountering something and they have taken the time to analyse their encounter and remember the details on behaviour, weaknesses etc. This moreso over "I hate goblins". For this reason I like Hunt Target to a degree, as its like studying the enemy on the fly.

But I would be interested in seeing Favoured enemy come back as a "I've experienced this before" kind of thing. Haven't put pen to paper as to what it would be mechanically, but something that takes into account the enemies you've faced. Something along the lines of if you have had an Encounter with this creature, you gain a bonus on [combat mechanic] or [skill check] to do with it. Maybe you can have enemy specializations = lvl + wis or int modifier, but can swap them out after a new encounter.

Not sure if anything like that works / is viable, but I would love to retain the idea of "I have a history with this thing", as it reflects the ranger's wisdom.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
D&D 5e was a reaction to D&D 4e. In D&D 4e we saw the exact same philosophy we have in PF2e, a universal bonus that was based on level (in 4e it was +1/2 level vs PF2e +level).

Aesthetically, I am not so into the big numbers I am seeing in PF2 (I am not saying PF1 did not have large numbers; that is also something I do not dig about PF1), but the 4-tiers of success system seems to leverage that (d20+39 and all that), so, I really look forward to seeing it all in context.


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Frames Janco wrote:

But I would be interested in seeing Favoured enemy come back as a "I've experienced this before" kind of thing. Haven't put pen to paper as to what it would be mechanically, but something that takes into account the enemies you've faced. Something along the lines of if you have had an Encounter with this creature, you gain a bonus on [combat mechanic] or [skill check] to do with it. Maybe you can have enemy specializations = lvl + wis or int modifier, but can swap them out after a new encounter.

If I was inclined to do this, I think I would simply allow an Assurance on the monster lore roll if the player chose.

Which honestly seems like something rangers will also get.

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you know a single filled diamond is one action, you can derive the rest of the system naturally, without referring back to a key.
The image is too small/blurry for me to make out what the symbols are, just that they are different. I'll take your word there is a diamond in there.
Your prescription must be impressive. It is much easier to identify the shape next to the word 'melee' than the word itself.

Thanks for being condescending... :P

I don't know WHAT you're looking at the image with but on my mobile device the ONLY reason I know those symbols are different is the empty space in the middle of the top one. As to the words, grim reaper and creature are the only readable ones for me.

And to be clear, I can see perfectly fine close up I just lack the ability to magnify and clear up images naturally. ;)

Maybe you are looking for way more detail than there is, then. The images are really simple. The only difference between them is the empty space in the top one. If you can make that out, you can identify the symbol.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:


If I was inclined to do this, I think I would simply allow an Assurance on the monster lore roll if the player chose.

Which honestly seems like something rangers will also get.

True dat. Flexible lore assurance would be cool.


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Frames Janco wrote:
Flexible lore assurance would be cool.

I bank with them.


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Lore Assurance would be nice in general, but I think it wouldn't work great with monster hunter because I doubt assurance will put you into critical success territory for any relevant threat.

Now, that being said. I can think of a situation where Assurance might be very good. If you can retry knowledge checks at a penalty. Suddenly that Assurance feat becomes AMAZING because it would let you ignore the penalty.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Maybe you are looking for way more detail than there is, then.

I have no context for that. Is there only 2 symbols? 3? 4? 63? 'Simple' is relative and complexity goes up inversely to the number of discrete instances of 'simple'. It's easy to pick out a single symbol but put a different one on each card in a deck and then is it easy to figure out?

I've been shown a SINGLE page with some symbols that I can barely tell apart and that proves what? If those are the only 2... why not a number as opposed to whichever one of those was meant to be the numbered one? What could be easier than that? Or are you trying to say that a number would be too tough so they made a symbol?


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Small note: Paizo is aware of people's concerns about the symbols. For the PDF they are considering some option that would make it easier for people who have visual impairments such as colorblindness or needing to use a digital reader. Back when the Icons first were mentioned we had a big hubbub about this and opened a thread specifically on it. Paizo took notice and we considered options.

Seeing most reader programs work off PDFs rather than print, there are work-arounds available. Hopefully Paizo hasn't forgotten this, but they did mention they didn't want to leave out their visually-impaired and colorblind readership.


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Tangent101 wrote:

Small note: Paizo is aware of people's concerns about the symbols. For the PDF they are considering some option that would make it easier for people who have visual impairments such as colorblindness or needing to use a digital reader. Back when the Icons first were mentioned we had a big hubbub about this and opened a thread specifically on it. Paizo took notice and we considered options.

Seeing most reader programs work off PDFs rather than print, there are work-arounds available. Hopefully Paizo hasn't forgotten this, but they did mention they didn't want to leave out their visually-impaired and colorblind readership.

So why not drop them, completely; like every previous non-failed edition has managed.


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Frames Janco wrote:

I've liked some of the suggestions about favoured enemy as feats, and I agree that it is thematically great.

I have always associated it as a representative of the ranger's experience encountering something and they have taken the time to analyse their encounter and remember the details on behaviour, weaknesses etc. This moreso over "I hate goblins". For this reason I like Hunt Target to a degree, as its like studying the enemy on the fly.

But I would be interested in seeing Favoured enemy come back as a "I've experienced this before" kind of thing. Haven't put pen to paper as to what it would be mechanically, but something that takes into account the enemies you've faced. Something along the lines of if you have had an Encounter with this creature, you gain a bonus on [combat mechanic] or [skill check] to do with it. Maybe you can have enemy specializations = lvl + wis or int modifier, but can swap them out after a new encounter.

Not sure if anything like that works / is viable, but I would love to retain the idea of "I have a history with this thing", as it reflects the ranger's wisdom.

I like where you're coming from on this. And I wouldn't just limit it to combat mechanics or enemies - seems like, where appropriate, this sort of mechanic should extend to other interactions with the favored "enemy" - intimidation, persuasion, negotiation, bargaining and trade, etc.

For example, if your character had a history of navigating treaties with trolls, or trustworthy trading with dwarves, or has such a reputation for bullying and intimidating orcs that there's a good chance they just won't want to mess with the party....

I'm not sure what the best mechanic for that sort of thing might be, either. It strikes me that Lore is potentially structured in a similar way, but I'm too tired to work out the logistics of whether that has any potential to go anywhere. Still, it does strike me at a distance as something that resembles a skill, more than a feat....

I also start to really appreciate where BRP/Call of Cthulhu is coming from with its skill system; did you use the skill this session? If yes, check a box, and at the end of the adventure, there's a chance your skill will improve.... In D&D terms: so, you hunted an undead? Check that box, and build your history and expertise with undead when you level up....

Anyway, that's just a couple random thoughts. To me, there's some appeal to being able to say "I have a history with this sort of thing", and being able to back it up with an unobtrusive mechanic with some real benefit to it....

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Maybe you are looking for way more detail than there is, then.
I have no context for that. Is there only 2 symbols? 3? 4? 63? 'Simple' is relative and complexity goes up inversely to the number of discrete instances of 'simple'. It's easy to pick out a single symbol but put a different one on each card in a deck and then is it easy to figure out?

I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five. Free action (empty diamond), one action (filled diamond), two actions, three actions, and reaction (half-empty diamond). They are so simple you didn't realize the diamond shape in the middle of the page was the whole symbol. As easy as picking an ace of diamonds out of a pack of playing cards.

Quote:
I've been shown a SINGLE page with some symbols that I can barely tell apart and that proves what?

You are capable of distinguishing the symbols from a tiny, blurry picture. You are capable of distinguishing the symbols at a glance, in a hurry, or in normal circumstances.

Quote:
If those are the only 2... why not a number as opposed to whichever one of those was meant to be the numbered one? What could be easier than that? Or are you trying to say that a number would be too tough so they made a symbol?

Again, the numerals would be much harder to distinguish on the example page. You can see the big diamond on a blurry page. You'd have to squint to read a number printed inside that same shape.


KingOfAnything wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five.

...and therefore..?

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Chest Rockwell wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five.

...and therefore..?

Graystone was under the impression that there were 63 possible symbols, and that the symbols might therefore be necessarily complex. There are only five, therefore the symbols can be simple and intuitively understood.


Tangent101 wrote:

Small note: Paizo is aware of people's concerns about the symbols. For the PDF they are considering some option that would make it easier for people who have visual impairments such as colorblindness or needing to use a digital reader. Back when the Icons first were mentioned we had a big hubbub about this and opened a thread specifically on it. Paizo took notice and we considered options.

Seeing most reader programs work off PDFs rather than print, there are work-arounds available. Hopefully Paizo hasn't forgotten this, but they did mention they didn't want to leave out their visually-impaired and colorblind readership.

Good to know, I'm glad the devs are already listening to feedback. This should help more people playtest the system and decide whether it's for them or not, as opposed to just seeing the symbols, wondering what the heck is going on there, and dropping the game because they literally can't read stat blocks and feat mechanics.


ErichAD wrote:
In the Hunt Target class feature, the ability says that the accuracy increase happens if all attacks are against your chosen target. It doesn't specify whether or not the attacks need to be exclusively against your chosen target, or if your attacks must include your chosen target.

Is there some specific ability you're thinking of, that let's you target more than one enemy with a single attack?


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five.

...and therefore..?

Graystone was under the impression that there were 63 possible symbols, and that the symbols might therefore be necessarily complex. There are only five, therefore the symbols can be simple and intuitively understood.

Ah, yes, but this is about not liking iconography in rules-text, right? I do not like it in RPGs (fantastic for CCGs), especially, another thing that did not appeal about 4th Ed.


Wizard: "At 1st level, you can pick up a feat that allows you to spend your reaction to counterspell any spell someone else casts as long as you currently have that spell prepared. If that isn't to your taste, you can take a wizard feat to recruit a familiar instead. Every day, you can select a pair of abilities to give this loyal companion, some of which grant you boons as well. At high levels, your familiar can even grant you an additional spell slot, as long as it is 3 levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. At 8th level you can select from a series of feats that enhance the power of your arcane school, increasing your pool of Spell Points and granting you an extra spell you can cast using that pool. One of my favorites is the necromantic power called life siphon, which lets you draw some of the magic from a non-cantrip necromancy spell you cast to regain 1d8 Hit Points per level of the spell."

Ranger: You can pick "The party gets +1 initiative" (and this isn't an ability you can take right away for some reason) and "The party sometimes gets +1 damage".

I really hope this is a case of bad examples. Even then the Ranger examples sound very underwhelming and makes me wonder why they exist. I really hope P2E isn't repeating 3.X's policy of intentionally making trap options to hurt new players.

Also very minor mentions of out of combat utility: You can track enemies (though your bonus will only apply if they ran away from you directly before you tracked them) and avoid leaving a trail in the wild (which, unless it lets you apply it to allies, is useless because you're got the lumbering fool in platemail traveling with you). Better than the zero the monk preview mentioned, but this has me worried.


jasin wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
In the Hunt Target class feature, the ability says that the accuracy increase happens if all attacks are against your chosen target. It doesn't specify whether or not the attacks need to be exclusively against your chosen target, or if your attacks must include your chosen target.
Is there some specific ability you're thinking of, that let's you target more than one enemy with a single attack?

I didn't have anything specific in mind, this is mostly a future proofing thing. A ranger throwing alchemist fires would be an example from what we know so far though.

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