Ranger Class Preview

Monday, July 2, 2018

Rangers have a long tradition in heroic adventure. Whether they're portrayed as lone striders keeping the edges of the wilderness free of the threats that lurch forth from the world's shadows, as hunters tracking down fugitives or beasts, or as skilled archers serving as a scouting force for a local lord or group of village elders, rangers have a special place in our fantastical imagination.

For the Pathfinder Playtest, we decided to cleave closer to the core principles of the ranger—a rough and tumble warrior in the wild, possibly of the wild himself. Because of this, the most significant change we made to the class was that it no longer has spellcasting ability, at least as a default. Of course, this doesn't mean we have to abandon this aspect of the Pathfinder First Edition ranger forever. Because of the way classes are now structured, it would be easy to create a spellcasting build of the ranger later using Spell Points (like the paladin), but for the Playtest, we are trying out a a spell-less ranger.

But enough of what the ranger doesn't have. Let's take a look at what he does.

Ranger Features

First and foremost, the ranger is a hunter. In Pathfinder First Edition, you picked creature types or subtypes that you were skilled at hunting. There are few things more frustrating than playing a ranger who rarely—or worst of all, never—encounters their favored enemies. It also led to some players who tended to play in more human-centric campaigns picking the human subtype, even if their backgrounds may have pointed to better choices for favored enemies.

This time we made the ranger hunting ability a bit more flexible, based on some popular ideas from the guide archetype and the slayer's studied target. At 1st level, rangers gain the Hunt Target feature.

[[A]] Hunt Target

Ranger

Requirements You can see or hear the target.

You designate a single creature within 100 feet as your target and focus your attacks against that creature. While hunting that creature, you gain benefits for focusing your attacks. As long as all your attacks in a round are against the target you're hunting, the multiple attack penalty you take on the second attack is -4 (-3 with an agile weapon) instead of -5, and -8 (-6 with an agile weapon) instead of -10 on the third and any further attacks in the round. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks against the target you're hunting within your second range increment. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

You can have only one creature designated as the target of your hunt at a time. If you use Hunt Target against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new target gains the designation. In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

There are many class feats and some higher-level abilities that augment the ranger's Hunt Target. For example, at 17th level, the masterful hunter feature decreases the ranger's multiple attack penalty to -3 (or -2 with agile weapon) with his second attack and -6 (or -4 with agile weapons) on his third or further attack, and he can ignore the penalty against the target of his hunt in the second or third range increment, assuming that he has at least master proficiency in the weapon he is. Speaking of which, like the fighter, the ranger gains weapon mastery for a group of weapons, though he gains it at 13th level instead of at 3rd level like the fighter. At 19th level, the ranger gains the swift target feature, which allows him to use Hunt Target as a free action triggered before he makes his first Strike each round, so he's never without a target to hunt! The specifics of the Hunt Target ability make the ranger excel at a variety of combat styles, especially his traditional two-weapon fighting (since you can decrease the multiple attack penalty with agile attacks to be incredibly small) and archery (since you eliminate some of the most common ranged increment penalties). Of course, a ranger with a less traditional style, like a greatsword with a reduced multiple attack penalty, works great too!

Other class features allow the ranger to stalk and avoid his foes. At 5th level, he gains trackless step. At 7th level, he gains evasion (followed by improved evasion at 15th level). He gains nature's edge at 9th level, which allows him to treat enemies in natural difficult terrain or in difficult terrain resulting from a snare (more on snares later!) as flat-footed. Come 11th level, he gains the wild stride feature, which allows him to ignore or minimize the effects of difficult terrain.

Ranger Feats

Class feats, of course, determine the flavor of individuals within a class, and the ranger is no different. Specific ranger feats allow him to gain an animal companion at the same progression as a druid's, though potentially with special benefits that only a ranger can obtain. Other feats will enable him to further focus on his weapon choice, including a whole string of feats that allow him to specialize in two-weapon fighting.

Some fun feats allow the ranger to use his knowledge and senses to aid his allies as well as himself. Here are a couple of my favorites.

Monster Hunter Feat 1

Ranger

When you critically succeed to identify a target you're hunting with Recall Knowledge, you (and your allies, if you tell them) gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against it, but not against other creatures of that species. The creature is bolstered.

[[F]] Scout's Warning Feat 4

Ranger

Trigger You are about to roll Perception for initiative.

You audibly or visually warn your allies of danger, granting them a +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls.

Harkening back to the hunter's bond class feature in Pathfinder First Edition, these feats allow the ranger to support the rest of the group with increased flexibility in how he chooses to do so, and these are just a few. The ranger can expand on Monster Hunter to grant even more benefits with a successful Recall Knowledge and even share the benefits of Hunt Target with other PCs (pretty much any martial class will love this benefit). And while flanking-savvy fighters might be a rogue's traditional best friend, the 12th-level Distracting Shot feat allows the ranger who hits a target with two ranged attacks in the same turn to leave that critter flat-footed until the start of the ranger's next turn. This helps fast rogues bring the pain quickly and farther away from more heavily armored support.

Another group of feats allows you to create snares. (Told you I'd get to that!)

Snares

Like alchemy, the ability to create snares is granted by a general feat (Snare Crafting). And like alchemists, rangers have the potential to lift general snare crafting to greater heights.

What are snares? Well, they're small portable hazards, very similar to traps, which can be set up in a short period of time (usually 1 minute). While it's unlikely that you will set up a snare in the midst of combat, they are perfect tools to arrange a battleground to your advantage. For instance, remember the nature's edge class feature that allows you to treat enemies in difficult terrain as flat-footed? Here's the most basic snare that creates difficult terrain.

Slowing Snare Snare 1

Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 2 gp

A square with this snare becomes difficult terrain when the first creature enters it, and then it is destroyed.

Other snares set off alarms, trip, or deal damage to those entering the area of a snare. Grab some alchemical items, and you can deal even more damage with a snare.

Freezing Snare Snare 8

Cold, Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 50 gp

You set a trio of liquid ice bombs to explode in unison when a creature enters the freezing snare's square. The target must attempt a DC 22 Reflexsave.

Success The target takes 1d8 cold damage.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.

Failure The target takes 3d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Critical Failure The target takes 6d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Craft Requirements three vials of liquid ice

Ranger feats that deal with snares allow you to learn more of them as your Crafting rank increases, lets you set them up faster (even in the middle of combat), and increases snares' DCs to match your class DC. Always make sure that your allies know where you hid your snares, or no bonus to attack rolls or initiative that you grant them will make up for the damage and humiliation you might cause.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Harsk Pathfinder Playtest Rangers Wayne Reynolds
351 to 400 of 850 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
jasin wrote:
Again keywording seems a bit out of control. Once Snare and Trap are different keywords, but a given object is both Snare and Trap, it might be time to wonder whether there's too much granularity there.

A snare is a kind of mundane trap that is relatively easy to set up and potentially usable in combat. It is a handy subset of all traps distinguished from magical traps and those that require significant effort to set up (pits, pressure plate swirling axes, poison gas).

These distinctions are important for adding new options to the categories. Any new snare in a future Game Master Guide is also a player option, whereas most traps are not.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
Don’t knock the symbology until you’ve seen it.

I've seen the concept done multiple times in various book before. I confident that THESE symbols aren't going to be magically different and click while all the others didn't. As such, I can say I don't need to see them to know they aren't going to be a boon for me.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
It was mechanically awful but thematically awesome.

Yeah, was best implemented in 1st Ed AD&D, well, that was also the best Ranger, of any edition, so far, for me.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The more I think about it, the more I think Favored Enemy works better as a feat. (And it isn't outrageous to think it will be, given Dwarves and Gnomes both have monster type specific ancestry feats.)

Favored enemy coming at specific level intervals was always weird. It meant your XP track had to align just right with the enemy and plot progression for it to see use. And while it was cool thematically, it didn't always gel with character creation anyway. The average level 1 ranger would probably have FE Animals since they have mostly just been a hunter before the adventure starts. However, if their villages gets wiped out in the first session by a rampaging orc horde, they should have obviously have a grudge against orcs and take that as an FE. But they can't actually add orcs until level 5.

As a feat, you have a lot more flexibility on what level you take an FE, which makes it much easier to tie into the narrative. And it can also be retrained if the feat winds up being a dud.

I suppose much of the above applies to Favored Terrain, it just seems more likely for character development to cause you to have a grudge against a particular foe than just becoming more attuned with a new set of terrain.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think Favored Enemy works better as a feat. (And it isn't outrageous to think it will be, given Dwarves and Gnomes both have monster type specific ancestry feats.)

Yes, if could work opt-in, like spell-casting (which I hope is at least an option down the line, as they mentioned).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Don’t knock the symbology until you’ve seen it.
I've seen the concept done multiple times in various book before. I confident that THESE symbols aren't going to be magically different and click while all the others didn't. As such, I can say I don't need to see them to know they aren't going to be a boon for me.

If you mean Starfinder or the Bestiaries, you really haven’t. Again, 1,2,3 is a much easier concept to convey.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm also down for something like Fuzzypaw's 5e type suggestion, which may be tied to certain beasties thematically but applies to more than just those beasties. But if we want to keep that original FE feel, feats seem like the answer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

YAY for Spell-less in the playtest. Here's hoping for magical options in the CRB for those who enjoy it

On a more general note, a great benefit from the feats-based design IMO will be that all classes can gain from additions in new splatbooks when casters where the only ones to gain such rich variety of resources in PF1 thanks to new spells appearing in every new book

I will miss the flavor of extra-super-awesomeness that came with using your favored style on favored enemies in a favored terrain. I hope some combination of feats helps recreate it

That said the blog post is so threadbare that I will definitely need to see the playtest to get a feeling about the new Ranger and how my Ranger character can be ported to PF2 (especially Animal Companion stuff, including non-Animal type Companions)

Acquiring a new target as an Action will hurt the machine gun style when you are killing mooks by the hundreds. I hope there is some way you can retarget freely when your initial target goes down

Combat-worthy Snares are not essential to my concept of the Ranger and those in PF1 were highly disappointing. I will need to see how people like them to consider ever using them

You may not really need to target monks in the first place. If you are at the point you can one shot a mook, the AC/to hit scaling of level means your attacks are all likely to land and you will probably get a crit on at least one of them. Hunt Target will matter less at that point than feats like Whirlwind attack.

I now need the Machine Gun feat for all ranged attacks : like whirlwind but ranged. Though making it a cone would be acceptable :-D

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Spells and Animal Companions being optional
I personally like both spells and having an animal companion but think that making them optional is definitely for the best. Everyone's happy.

Don't get rid of favored enemy and favored terrain - make them optional
I understand that favored enemy and favored terrain would irk certain types of players feeling that the glass was half empty when not in use but they were the most thematic elements of the 1st ed ranger, and I hope that class feats will allow you to optionally pick them up.

Additionally i was hoping that PF2 would go further in the direction of the monster hunter's handbook favored enemy style feats and allow cool bonuses against certain types of monster attacks.

The Ranger's Niche
Its hard to see exactly where the ranger is "best" from this preview and they seem to have a mishmash of borrowed class features.

I for one think that rangers should be the best at monster hunting and getting their party through the wilderness dangers safely. I hope that when we see the full kit that they get this ability AND its not so niche that everyone is happy rather than being bummed that they aren't in their favorite terrain.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
jasin wrote:
the baseline has changed? Maybe Weapon Focus isn't there anymore, and +1 attack is considered more valuable?

This is precisely correct. To-hit bonus is very finely calibrated and very limited. All you ever get to it is Level + Proficiency + Ability + Weapon (ie: the up to +5 from a magic weapon, mostly)...and a few conditional bonuses like this one.

Whether that's enough to make Monster Hunter good is another matter, but Weapon Focus and Feats like it are as dead as disco.

So something like 5E's "bounded accuracy", as a rule no attack bonuses from broadly available feats, spells, and conditions? That's a pretty big change! Was this discussed in more detail somewhere?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just hoping that PF2's Ranger actually ends up with both a firm identity and a functional mechanism...


The Raven Black wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

YAY for Spell-less in the playtest. Here's hoping for magical options in the CRB for those who enjoy it

On a more general note, a great benefit from the feats-based design IMO will be that all classes can gain from additions in new splatbooks when casters where the only ones to gain such rich variety of resources in PF1 thanks to new spells appearing in every new book

I will miss the flavor of extra-super-awesomeness that came with using your favored style on favored enemies in a favored terrain. I hope some combination of feats helps recreate it

That said the blog post is so threadbare that I will definitely need to see the playtest to get a feeling about the new Ranger and how my Ranger character can be ported to PF2 (especially Animal Companion stuff, including non-Animal type Companions)

Acquiring a new target as an Action will hurt the machine gun style when you are killing mooks by the hundreds. I hope there is some way you can retarget freely when your initial target goes down

Combat-worthy Snares are not essential to my concept of the Ranger and those in PF1 were highly disappointing. I will need to see how people like them to consider ever using them

You may not really need to target monks in the first place. If you are at the point you can one shot a mook, the AC/to hit scaling of level means your attacks are all likely to land and you will probably get a crit on at least one of them. Hunt Target will matter less at that point than feats like Whirlwind attack.
I now need the Machine Gun feat for all ranged attacks : like whirlwind but ranged. Though making it a cone would be acceptable :-D

I have some vague memory of some kind of AoE arrow storm feat, but I might be conflating a poster's wish list with what paizo has actually hinted at.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Don’t knock the symbology until you’ve seen it.
I've seen the concept done multiple times in various book before. I confident that THESE symbols aren't going to be magically different and click while all the others didn't. As such, I can say I don't need to see them to know they aren't going to be a boon for me.
If you mean Starfinder or the Bestiaries, you really haven’t. Again, 1,2,3 is a much easier concept to convey.

My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.

EDIT: for me, it's kind of like bulk. Inventing something new instead of something I know that was easy to figure out.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
jasin wrote:
So something like 5E's "bounded accuracy", as a rule no attack bonuses from broadly available feats, spells, and conditions? That's a pretty big change! Was this discussed in more detail somewhere?

There are some spells that grant it, but they do appear more limited (for example, Bless is still 1st level and still grants a +1 to hit, but costs one action every round to maintain).

And it's in some ways mathematically similar to bounded accuracy, but a maximal Fighter goes from +6 to hit at 1st level, to +35 at 20th, so it's pretty different in terms of actually being bounded.

Really, what they've said they're aiming for is for it to be bounded within each individual level, so that characters of the same level are within a narrow and predictable range, while still having level mean quite a bit in terms of power.

As for where it's been discussed...geez, all sorts of places. Mostly in Blog threads of various sorts, though those are a bit of a slog to read all the way through just for those discussions. You might just find the designer's profile pages and read through their posts if you want to know everything they've said on everything.

Grand Lodge

11 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.

Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f%$* you in particular".

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Don’t knock the symbology until you’ve seen it.
I've seen the concept done multiple times in various book before. I confident that THESE symbols aren't going to be magically different and click while all the others didn't. As such, I can say I don't need to see them to know they aren't going to be a boon for me.
If you mean Starfinder or the Bestiaries, you really haven’t. Again, 1,2,3 is a much easier concept to convey.
My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.

Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f%%& you in particular".

Hehehe ye!

(I forgot that was a spell and not a class ability)


jasin wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
jasin wrote:
the baseline has changed? Maybe Weapon Focus isn't there anymore, and +1 attack is considered more valuable?

This is precisely correct. To-hit bonus is very finely calibrated and very limited. All you ever get to it is Level + Proficiency + Ability + Weapon (ie: the up to +5 from a magic weapon, mostly)...and a few conditional bonuses like this one.

Whether that's enough to make Monster Hunter good is another matter, but Weapon Focus and Feats like it are as dead as disco.

So something like 5E's "bounded accuracy", as a rule no attack bonuses from broadly available feats, spells, and conditions? That's a pretty big change! Was this discussed in more detail somewhere?

No no, it's not bounded accuracy. Bounded accuracy in practice allows a goblin to have a chance to hit your 20th level character. In this system, they don't. Your values keep going up, scaling with those of higher and higher level enemies, and at a certain point a lower-level enemy can't touch you anymore, except crits. At the same time you can't touch a red wyrm at 1st level (again, except nat 20), but as you level up you start to be able to hit it, until it's something you can reasonably do. Bounded accuracy means that the wyrm can be hit more easily by anyone, no matter their level (even though at higher levels you have more of a chance) and no one is ever beyond the attack of anyone else.

Bounded accuracy limits your bonus range. This system the devs have come up with lets it soar to whatever height it can reach. It's just that with crits being dc+10 and botches being dc-10, every single bonus point is *very important*, and generalized +1 across the whole board are discouraged, unless within the trained/expert/master/legendary paradigm, or given by your level, or by a magic weapon, or by your attack stat, all stuff that is already calculated into enemies' ac.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.

Mechanically, it wasn't always so great, but it fit some character conceptions pretty well: Orc Hunter, Giant Slayer, etc. You can even roll your own Undead Hunting Paladin-like dude using the Ranger class.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:

My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.

EDIT: for me, it's kind of like bulk. Inventing something new instead of something I know that was easy to figure out.

I don't know anything about how bulk is going to be implemented, but I agree that some people will have a damn hard time figuring those little symbols, whether because of some kind of dyslexia or other forms of reading differences. Considering PF is trying to appeal to a wider public, and that one of their fortes is their inclusivity, they should probably re-think that.

I mean, I guess the little icons could stay, but they'll need their meaning right beside them, or players won't know what the heck they're looking at and what it means. That's definitely *not* desirable from a game design perspective.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:
graystone wrote:

My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.

EDIT: for me, it's kind of like bulk. Inventing something new instead of something I know that was easy to figure out.

I don't know anything about how bulk is going to be implemented, but I agree that some people will have a damn hard time figuring those little symbols, whether because of some kind of dyslexia or other forms of reading differences. Considering PF is trying to appeal to a wider public, and that one of their fortes is their inclusivity, they should probably re-think that.

I mean, I guess the little icons could stay, but they'll need their meaning right beside them, or players won't know what the heck they're looking at and what it means. That's definitely *not* desirable from a game design perspective.

Are you speaking from experience? There aren't any letters or images in the previewed icons, dyslexia wouldn't come up. They may have changed since May, but it was as easy as counting to three to figure out the ones I played with. Yes, there are accessibility considerations to consider (namely, screen readers), but not the ones you are suggesting.

I'm pretty sure children learn to count things some time before they start reading.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:

Are you speaking from experience? There aren't any letters or images in the previewed icons, dyslexia wouldn't come up. They may have changed since May, but it was as easy as counting to three to figure out the ones I played with. Yes, there are accessibility considerations to consider (namely, screen readers), but not the ones you are suggesting.

I'm pretty sure children learn to count things some time before they start reading.

graystone wrote:
My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.

I really don't care about children or whatever in this case. Graystone's telling you symbols don't work for them. I'm pretty damn sure they're not the only one who can't read them worth frick. It is immaterial whether I can or can't personally - yes I can, and Graystone and other players still can't, moot point.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f$*! you in particular".

That spell single-handedly forced Rangers to maximize their bonus against a specific favored enemy rather than spread the love around as they would before it appeared

I will be glad we get rid of it

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

Are you speaking from experience? There aren't any letters or images in the previewed icons, dyslexia wouldn't come up. They may have changed since May, but it was as easy as counting to three to figure out the ones I played with. Yes, there are accessibility considerations to consider (namely, screen readers), but not the ones you are suggesting.

I'm pretty sure children learn to count things some time before they start reading.

graystone wrote:
My comment wasn't limited to Paizo products: I've seem various books from various systems and I've never found them intuitive or useful. I've never seem a symbology with any complexity that worked for me: either it was superfluous [a 1,2,3 isn't a help when I glance at the action section and see 3 actions] or required constant referencing to figure them out.
I really don't care about children or whatever in this case. Graystone's telling you symbols don't work for them. I'm pretty damn sure they're not the only one who can't read them worth frick. It is immaterial whether I can or can't personally - yes I can, and Graystone and other players still can't, moot point.

I don't think you or they understand what is meant by 'symbol' in this case. I appreciate graystone's previous experiences, but based on my own experience I don't think they are applicable. For instance, I'm pretty sure graystone is capable of counting, and that is all that is required for understanding, not any form of 'reading' or 'deciphering' or 'decoding' of symbols. I am asking you and graystone to not make assumptions about symbols you haven't even seen.

The complaints you quoted were that symbols were either 1. too complex to decipher without reference; or 2. so simple as to be superfluous to the text. We can see evidence in this very blog that #2 does not apply, and I am telling you that #1 is extremely unlikely based on what I playtested. By all means, if they are inscrutable to people when the document comes out, be loud about it.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
That spell single-handedly forced Rangers to maximize their bonus

The f!*& it did. Adherence to optimizing numbers did that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
That spell single-handedly forced Rangers to maximize their bonus
The f&+@ it did. Adherence to optimizing numbers did that.

That's the problem 2E fixes.

The existence of a hyper-optimal playstyle makes balancing wildly variable. The idea here is that player power should be predictable within restricted bounds.

Like the 2E Ranger with Monster Hunter will likely be stronger when their Recall Knowledge skills are applicable, but not that much weaker than one without.

And there's no option that leaves it in the dust.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f%@@ you in particular".

Because it justifies kicking in the throneroom door and shouting "Queen Ileosa you have failed this city" in a suitably dramatic style.

I loved playing that ranger, and the FE ability was a big boost to damage overall.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f$*! you in particular".

That spell single-handedly forced Rangers to maximize their bonus against a specific favored enemy rather than spread the love around as they would before it appeared

I will be glad we get rid of it

Uh, you got a boost and a new FE at every increase.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
That's the problem 2E fixes.

Gods I hope so.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Why are people such fans of favoured enemy? It was awful and the single reason I didn't play a ranger.
Because it was super easy to take common creatures as your focus and when you got it, it was a major boost. Plus getting the Instant Enemy spell and being able to look at a foe and say "f$*! you in particular".

That spell single-handedly forced Rangers to maximize their bonus against a specific favored enemy rather than spread the love around as they would before it appeared

I will be glad we get rid of it

Uh, you got a boost and a new FE at every increase.

Yeah, but it rewarded you going +2->+4/+2->+6/+2/+2->+8/+2/+2/+2->+10/+2/+2/+2/+2, rather than anything like +6/+4/+4/+2/+2

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

Bear in mind that the PF1 Ranger actually already had a Studied Target-like ability in Quarry at high levels. It's just now been cleaned up into something you can do with less restrictions from level 1.

I'm still hoping for the thematic favored enemy abilities I mentioned on the first page, but maybe they're already present and just weren't mentioned for some reason. Perhaps the author thought it was obvious the Ranger would have favored enemy and didn't think to bring it up. Or perhaps it will end up in the final published version thanks to our comments. :)

I think the thematic favored enemy abilities would make some excellent class feats for the ranger.
Brainstorm: Favored Enemy class feats could include the ability to designate hunted targets without the requirement to see or hear them. The humanoid(human) version could even open up a few investigator-like class feats for an urban campaign.

It would be neat if Favored Enemy existed as a general concept that doesn't give any bonuses itself, but can be called out in certain combat feats or ranger class feats for small extra bonuses under a Special heading. For instance, Monster Hunter could trigger on a success against favored enemies. Ancestries with racial grudges could grant favored enemy as part of an ancestry feat. It would still primarily be a ranger thing, but still have potential for other classes to make use of the benefits.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.

If they don't in the actual playtest, then that will be something I'll note and complain about. I don't want a superfluous glyph in an effort to prevent 'superfluous' useful info. If all I get to figure out number and type of actions I use are glyphs, this isn't the game for me.


I like it. I forsee class feats having a whole bunch of FE abilities as well as 1E Slayer and Hunter and goodies.

Surprised that Ranger is the TWF master rather than the Rogue though...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.
If they don't in the actual playtest, then that will be something I'll note and complain about. I don't want a superfluous glyph in an effort to prevent 'superfluous' useful info. If all I get to figure out number and type of actions I use are glyphs, this isn't the game for me.

I'm not sure where you are getting 'number and type of actions used' from. We've only seen the glyphs refer to the number of actions required. Are you confusing abilities with items/spells? Effects that require different types of actions to activate? Abilities such as Hunt Target are a type of action.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
N N 959 wrote:
Yeah, that's all subsumed in the Survival skill. I've never seen any Ranger in popular fiction setting exploding traps to kill pursers outside of Rambo.

Three words: World. Of. Warcraft. Traps used to be a pretty big part of the Hunter's toolkit in WOW, and they still are for a certain type of them.

And sure, having the ranger class as a whole based on WOW would be a bad idea, but it's nice if a WOW player can build a WoW-style character using the Pathfinder material.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In the interests of allowing Paizo to enjoy their holiday, maybe take the topic of the glyphs to another thread? I remember seeing at least two or three of them around.

Something else to keep in mind, there's a possibility Rangers might not pay full price for snares. Alchemists can make a limited number of alchemy products without paying for the materials, right? Same with the old trapper archetype in PF1? So perhaps the listed price is the (far to high IMO) base price, but Rangers with the appropriate class feat gets a limited number of free ones?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:

In the interests of allowing Paizo to enjoy their holiday, maybe take the topic of the glyphs to another thread? I remember seeing at least two or three of them around.

Something else to keep in mind, there's a possibility Rangers might not pay full price for snares. Alchemists can make a limited number of alchemy products without paying for the materials, right? Same with the old trapper archetype in PF1? So perhaps the listed price is the (far to high IMO) base price, but Rangers with the appropriate class feat gets a limited number of free ones?

Rangers can make snares for free, or they can pay and make them with increased DCs.


KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.
If they don't in the actual playtest, then that will be something I'll note and complain about. I don't want a superfluous glyph in an effort to prevent 'superfluous' useful info. If all I get to figure out number and type of actions I use are glyphs, this isn't the game for me.

I'm not sure where you are getting 'number and type of actions used' from. We've only seen the glyphs refer to the number of actions required. Are you confusing abilities with items/spells? Effects that require different types of actions to activate? Abilities such as Hunt Target are a type of action.

You know that there are sections of the game past the ranger pne right? And if ALL the glyphs are for is numbers then isn't using numbers easier?

There are Recall Knowledge actions, Focus Activation, Command Activation, Operate Activation, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting, stride action, strike action, seek action, ect. If I have to figure out which it is AFTER the glyph, it's not much use. If I don't have to figure that out, it STILL is useless as a number is all that's needed.

So care to explain the need for glyphs and what they could possible simplify?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:

In the interests of allowing Paizo to enjoy their holiday, maybe take the topic of the glyphs to another thread? I remember seeing at least two or three of them around.

Something else to keep in mind, there's a possibility Rangers might not pay full price for snares. Alchemists can make a limited number of alchemy products without paying for the materials, right? Same with the old trapper archetype in PF1? So perhaps the listed price is the (far to high IMO) base price, but Rangers with the appropriate class feat gets a limited number of free ones?

Rangers can make snares for free, or they can pay and make them with increased DCs.

I see that now. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned in the blog? That 50gp price tag on top of alchemy matierials certainly gave me pause.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Look I just want to be able to shoot the snares at targets if possible.

Go all Green Arrow on enemies.


graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Where are you seeing action sections on the abilities previewed here? Neither Hunt Target nor Scout's Warning have superfluous information.
If they don't in the actual playtest, then that will be something I'll note and complain about. I don't want a superfluous glyph in an effort to prevent 'superfluous' useful info. If all I get to figure out number and type of actions I use are glyphs, this isn't the game for me.

I'm not sure where you are getting 'number and type of actions used' from. We've only seen the glyphs refer to the number of actions required. Are you confusing abilities with items/spells? Effects that require different types of actions to activate? Abilities such as Hunt Target are a type of action.

You know that there are sections of the game past the ranger pne right? And if ALL the glyphs are for is numbers then isn't using numbers easier?

There are Recall Knowledge actions, Focus Activation, Command Activation, Operate Activation, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting, stride action, strike action, seek action, ect. If I have to figure out which it is AFTER the glyph, it's not much use. If I don't have to figure that out, it STILL is useless as a number is all that's needed.

So care to explain the need for glyphs and what they could possible simplify?

Where do reactions/free actions fall under this numbering system?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I was at PaizoCon and saw the symbols twice, and they're pretty distinct from one another. The full symbol is a diamond, but it's split into sections.

The action symbol is the full diamond, and additional diamonds that overlap indicate how many actions it takes.

Reactions, as I recall, are hollow diamonds, they aren't solid.

Free actions are just the top and bottom of the diamond, the entire middle is empty.

I don't like symbols, but it seemed pretty decent compared to every other system of them I've seen. I was very skeptical of the symbols myself, and find all the ones in Starfinder useless and unintuitive, personally.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyouni wrote:
Where do reactions/free actions fall under this numbering system?

You see it under scout's warning: that [[F]] is for free action, which is why I question KingOfEverything's idea that it's all about numbers.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
So care to explain the need for glyphs and what they could possible simplify?

Here's a monster stat block they showed at Paizocon. You can see the glyphs for a reaction in the middle (Lurking Death), and for one action slightly below that (Melee). As I understand it, the glyphs for two and three actions will look like the one-action glyph, but with extra "chevrons". Basically, if this is the one-action glyph: ◊> , these will be the two- and three-action ones: ◊>> ◊>>>

These do make reading a stat block easier, especially one with more fun stuff than the Grim Reaper (which seems very nasty, but also very straight-forward). For example, an NPC fighter might have a stat block that includes:
<> Shield block - Trigger: You are hit by an attack and have raised your shield in your previous turn. Effect: Reduce the attack's damage by 5.
◊> Melee - Longsword +10, damage 2d8+6.
◊> Raise shield - Increase your AC by 2 until the start of your next turn. Allows you to use the Shield Block reaction.
◊>> Sudden Charge - Stride twice and make a Melee attack.

Symbols like these are easier to scan for in a large and complicated stat block.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Cyouni wrote:
graystone wrote:

You know that there are sections of the game past the ranger pne right? And if ALL the glyphs are for is numbers then isn't using numbers easier?

There are Recall Knowledge actions, Focus Activation, Command Activation, Operate Activation, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting, stride action, strike action, seek action, ect. If I have to figure out which it is AFTER the glyph, it's not much use. If I don't have to figure that out, it STILL is useless as a number is all that's needed.

So care to explain the need for glyphs and what they could possible simplify?

Where do reactions/free actions fall under this numbering system?

Representing Free actions and Reactions are exactly where using symbols is better than numerals. Conceptually, they can be represented by '0' and '1/2'. But, neither those numerals or 'F' and 'R' are nearly as easy to identify at a glance as the symbols we've seen.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Symbols like these are easier to scan for in a large and complicated stat block.

I'll take your word that it's easier for you. IMO, I can't see how "◊>>" is easier than "2" in a block, square or triangle... Then we invent a new symbol for reactions. Then one for free actions... Then... :P

While I do appreciate knowing how the symbols are set up, it didn't improve my thoughts on them much.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
graystone wrote:

You know that there are sections of the game past the ranger pne right? And if ALL the glyphs are for is numbers then isn't using numbers easier?

There are Recall Knowledge actions, Focus Activation, Command Activation, Operate Activation, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting, stride action, strike action, seek action, ect. If I have to figure out which it is AFTER the glyph, it's not much use. If I don't have to figure that out, it STILL is useless as a number is all that's needed.

So care to explain the need for glyphs and what they could possible simplify?

Where do reactions/free actions fall under this numbering system?
Representing Free actions and Reactions are exactly where using symbols is better than numerals. Conceptually, they can be represented by '0' and '1/2'. But, neither those numerals or 'F' and 'R' are nearly as easy to identify at a glance as the symbols we've seen.

I know the system, and that's the point I was trying to make. It's easier to quickly parse than numbers.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Symbols like these are easier to scan for in a large and complicated stat block.
I'll take your word that it's easier for you. IMO, I can't see how "◊>>" is easier than "2" in a block, square or triangle... Then we invent a new symbol for reactions. Then one for free actions... Then... :P

Did you click the image link? Even in the blurry picture, you can distinguish between the Action and the Reaction. Were those numbers or letters inside of a shape, you'd have to do a lot more squinting.


KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Symbols like these are easier to scan for in a large and complicated stat block.
I'll take your word that it's easier for you. IMO, I can't see how "◊>>" is easier than "2" in a block, square or triangle... Then we invent a new symbol for reactions. Then one for free actions... Then... :P
Did you click the image link? Even in the blurry picture, you can distinguish between the Action and the Reaction. Were those numbers or letters inside of a shape, you'd have to do a lot more squinting.

No. It would be hard for me to click on a link I never saw. Any idea where I might find such a link?

Liberty's Edge

Staffan Johansson's post immediately above has the link.

351 to 400 of 850 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Paizo Blog: Ranger Class Preview All Messageboards