Ranger Class Preview

Monday, July 2, 2018

Rangers have a long tradition in heroic adventure. Whether they're portrayed as lone striders keeping the edges of the wilderness free of the threats that lurch forth from the world's shadows, as hunters tracking down fugitives or beasts, or as skilled archers serving as a scouting force for a local lord or group of village elders, rangers have a special place in our fantastical imagination.

For the Pathfinder Playtest, we decided to cleave closer to the core principles of the ranger—a rough and tumble warrior in the wild, possibly of the wild himself. Because of this, the most significant change we made to the class was that it no longer has spellcasting ability, at least as a default. Of course, this doesn't mean we have to abandon this aspect of the Pathfinder First Edition ranger forever. Because of the way classes are now structured, it would be easy to create a spellcasting build of the ranger later using Spell Points (like the paladin), but for the Playtest, we are trying out a a spell-less ranger.

But enough of what the ranger doesn't have. Let's take a look at what he does.

Ranger Features

First and foremost, the ranger is a hunter. In Pathfinder First Edition, you picked creature types or subtypes that you were skilled at hunting. There are few things more frustrating than playing a ranger who rarely—or worst of all, never—encounters their favored enemies. It also led to some players who tended to play in more human-centric campaigns picking the human subtype, even if their backgrounds may have pointed to better choices for favored enemies.

This time we made the ranger hunting ability a bit more flexible, based on some popular ideas from the guide archetype and the slayer's studied target. At 1st level, rangers gain the Hunt Target feature.

[[A]] Hunt Target

Ranger

Requirements You can see or hear the target.

You designate a single creature within 100 feet as your target and focus your attacks against that creature. While hunting that creature, you gain benefits for focusing your attacks. As long as all your attacks in a round are against the target you're hunting, the multiple attack penalty you take on the second attack is -4 (-3 with an agile weapon) instead of -5, and -8 (-6 with an agile weapon) instead of -10 on the third and any further attacks in the round. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks against the target you're hunting within your second range increment. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

You can have only one creature designated as the target of your hunt at a time. If you use Hunt Target against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new target gains the designation. In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

There are many class feats and some higher-level abilities that augment the ranger's Hunt Target. For example, at 17th level, the masterful hunter feature decreases the ranger's multiple attack penalty to -3 (or -2 with agile weapon) with his second attack and -6 (or -4 with agile weapons) on his third or further attack, and he can ignore the penalty against the target of his hunt in the second or third range increment, assuming that he has at least master proficiency in the weapon he is. Speaking of which, like the fighter, the ranger gains weapon mastery for a group of weapons, though he gains it at 13th level instead of at 3rd level like the fighter. At 19th level, the ranger gains the swift target feature, which allows him to use Hunt Target as a free action triggered before he makes his first Strike each round, so he's never without a target to hunt! The specifics of the Hunt Target ability make the ranger excel at a variety of combat styles, especially his traditional two-weapon fighting (since you can decrease the multiple attack penalty with agile attacks to be incredibly small) and archery (since you eliminate some of the most common ranged increment penalties). Of course, a ranger with a less traditional style, like a greatsword with a reduced multiple attack penalty, works great too!

Other class features allow the ranger to stalk and avoid his foes. At 5th level, he gains trackless step. At 7th level, he gains evasion (followed by improved evasion at 15th level). He gains nature's edge at 9th level, which allows him to treat enemies in natural difficult terrain or in difficult terrain resulting from a snare (more on snares later!) as flat-footed. Come 11th level, he gains the wild stride feature, which allows him to ignore or minimize the effects of difficult terrain.

Ranger Feats

Class feats, of course, determine the flavor of individuals within a class, and the ranger is no different. Specific ranger feats allow him to gain an animal companion at the same progression as a druid's, though potentially with special benefits that only a ranger can obtain. Other feats will enable him to further focus on his weapon choice, including a whole string of feats that allow him to specialize in two-weapon fighting.

Some fun feats allow the ranger to use his knowledge and senses to aid his allies as well as himself. Here are a couple of my favorites.

Monster Hunter Feat 1

Ranger

When you critically succeed to identify a target you're hunting with Recall Knowledge, you (and your allies, if you tell them) gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against it, but not against other creatures of that species. The creature is bolstered.

[[F]] Scout's Warning Feat 4

Ranger

Trigger You are about to roll Perception for initiative.

You audibly or visually warn your allies of danger, granting them a +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls.

Harkening back to the hunter's bond class feature in Pathfinder First Edition, these feats allow the ranger to support the rest of the group with increased flexibility in how he chooses to do so, and these are just a few. The ranger can expand on Monster Hunter to grant even more benefits with a successful Recall Knowledge and even share the benefits of Hunt Target with other PCs (pretty much any martial class will love this benefit). And while flanking-savvy fighters might be a rogue's traditional best friend, the 12th-level Distracting Shot feat allows the ranger who hits a target with two ranged attacks in the same turn to leave that critter flat-footed until the start of the ranger's next turn. This helps fast rogues bring the pain quickly and farther away from more heavily armored support.

Another group of feats allows you to create snares. (Told you I'd get to that!)

Snares

Like alchemy, the ability to create snares is granted by a general feat (Snare Crafting). And like alchemists, rangers have the potential to lift general snare crafting to greater heights.

What are snares? Well, they're small portable hazards, very similar to traps, which can be set up in a short period of time (usually 1 minute). While it's unlikely that you will set up a snare in the midst of combat, they are perfect tools to arrange a battleground to your advantage. For instance, remember the nature's edge class feature that allows you to treat enemies in difficult terrain as flat-footed? Here's the most basic snare that creates difficult terrain.

Slowing Snare Snare 1

Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 2 gp

A square with this snare becomes difficult terrain when the first creature enters it, and then it is destroyed.

Other snares set off alarms, trip, or deal damage to those entering the area of a snare. Grab some alchemical items, and you can deal even more damage with a snare.

Freezing Snare Snare 8

Cold, Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 50 gp

You set a trio of liquid ice bombs to explode in unison when a creature enters the freezing snare's square. The target must attempt a DC 22 Reflexsave.

Success The target takes 1d8 cold damage.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.

Failure The target takes 3d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Critical Failure The target takes 6d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Craft Requirements three vials of liquid ice

Ranger feats that deal with snares allow you to learn more of them as your Crafting rank increases, lets you set them up faster (even in the middle of combat), and increases snares' DCs to match your class DC. Always make sure that your allies know where you hid your snares, or no bonus to attack rolls or initiative that you grant them will make up for the damage and humiliation you might cause.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Harsk Pathfinder Playtest Rangers Wayne Reynolds
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4 people marked this as a favorite.

I have to ask why Favored Enemy is so glorified? It was borderline useless most of the time until you got the 4th level spell that let you pick a favored enemy, and in some cases you had to beg the DM to tell you what was most likely enemy to meet in the campagin.

Otherwise you just pick the most common types like Humanoid or Undead, where is the so-called "Flavor" of the class here? If anything its a dead feature, or is it just that dead features and traits are "Oh so flavorful" in just that they are in fact useless?

I for one dont mourn the current loss of Spellcasting and Favored enemy, for the spellcasting might return later in form of other class feats, and favored enemy have effectively been replaced by something that lets a ranger act like a ranger, always found it weird a ranger only knew how to track down this one particular creature, or know that "maybe the head is a fine place to apply a hammer?"...

All of this doom and gloom on this forum is aggrivating.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starfox wrote:

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.

Snares are not a routine class feature. They are a global feature of the Skill system that a Ranger can opt to make better use of with feats.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malk_Content wrote:
Starfox wrote:

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.

Snares are not a routine class feature. They are a global feature of the Skill system that a Ranger can opt to make better use of with feats.

The problem is still the cost. The examples, a level 1 and 4 snare, cost 2gp and 50gp in a game that uses a SILVER PIECE economy. So at level 1 the snare is 20sp, starting cash is 15. Way too expensive for a 1 round effect. Imagine the outcry is a wizard had to pay 20sp for every first level spell he cast, let alone 500sp for every casting of a 2nd level spell. Add to this the fact they take a minute to set up, or “in combat” if you invest feats, that they will require DM fiat to trap a foe or just plain old luck for a foe to hit that particular space in combat, and unfortunately is makes zero sense for a ranger to use this or the feats. Will wait and see.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Cat-thulhu wrote:
The problem is still the cost. The examples, a level 1 and 4 snare, cost 2gp and 50gp in a game that uses a SILVER PIECE economy.

Actually, the 50 gp one is level 8, not level 4, which makes quite a difference.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Starfox wrote:

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.

Snares are not a routine class feature. They are a global feature of the Skill system that a Ranger can opt to make better use of with feats.
The problem is still the cost. The examples, a level 1 and 4 snare, cost 2gp and 50gp in a game that uses a SILVER PIECE economy. So at level 1 the snare is 20sp, starting cash is 15. Way too expensive for a 1 round effect. Imagine the outcry is a wizard had to pay 20sp for every first level spell he cast, let alone 500sp for every casting of a 2nd level spell. Add to this the fact they take a minute to set up, or “in combat” if you invest feats, that they will require DM fiat to trap a foe or just plain old luck for a foe to hit that particular space in combat, and unfortunately is makes zero sense for a ranger to use this or the feats. Will wait and see.

We know that you can craft at half price if you want to. So the level 1 Snare could actually be 10sp, which is 1/15th of your beginning wealth. Also it is a consumable so via at least old WBL assumptions you should recoup that cost in time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starfox wrote:

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.

Don't worry; Ranger can craft snares for free. If they want to craft snares with higher DCs than normal, then they pay the normal gold cost. Make your routine snares the free ones.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Starfox wrote:

I am STRONGLY opposed to the gold cost of the snares. Routine class features should not have a gold piece cost. PF2 seems to be moving away from the "gold is xp" mantra of PF1, and this is seriously backsliding.

Having even a very low a cost makes it a sacrifice to use snares at routine locations, like a campsite, severely reducing the usefulness of the feature, and weakening the ranger's theme.

Snares are not a routine class feature. They are a global feature of the Skill system that a Ranger can opt to make better use of with feats.
The problem is still the cost. The examples, a level 1 and 4 snare, cost 2gp and 50gp in a game that uses a SILVER PIECE economy. So at level 1 the snare is 20sp, starting cash is 15. Way too expensive for a 1 round effect. Imagine the outcry is a wizard had to pay 20sp for every first level spell he cast, let alone 500sp for every casting of a 2nd level spell. Add to this the fact they take a minute to set up, or “in combat” if you invest feats, that they will require DM fiat to trap a foe or just plain old luck for a foe to hit that particular space in combat, and unfortunately is makes zero sense for a ranger to use this or the feats. Will wait and see.

This isn't comparable to wizards casting spells. It is comparable to complaining that a fighter needs to pay for an oil of magic weapon or a rogue needs to pay for alchemist fires. Or a wizard having to pay gold to craft items.

These aren't a built in part of the ranger. They are a craftable form of consumable that literally anyone can make. The Ranger jut has access to some class specific feats that allow them to do it better (and for free, as well.)

Snares may wind up being underwhelming in their effects but there's nothing wrong with being able to opt in to using gold to gain new equipment options.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:


Alas, I'm trying to describe an image via text, and from a distance or at a glance that first image looks like a single diamond, the two action glyph looks like two overlapping diamonds, and the three action glyph looks like three overlapping diamonds.

Which brings up another problem with using glyphs,

Is Paizo going to release them for community use? When someone creates a stat block, how easy will it be for them to include the ‘standard’ glyphs? Will we have a way to insert them in the forum posts? I’m certain we will need them in the rules forums. People also have rules discussions on Discord, Google hangouts, and other media as well.

I am glad they are trying to improve the readability of the rules. I hope they do make it easier to establish at a glance various rules elements. I will wait and see how they look in the playtest, then ask a couple of people I know who have different vision problems what they think as well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five.

...and therefore..?

Graystone was under the impression that there were 63 possible symbols, and that the symbols might therefore be necessarily complex. There are only five, therefore the symbols can be simple and intuitively understood.

I was going to stay out of this, but I'm starting to wonder if you were the one to design the symbols. I mean, not seriously, but you seem very invested in the idea that they will be intuitively understood by everyone, when that's not probable. By a majority, yes. By almost everyone (especially after some experience), sure. But even if we don't have a problem with them, doesn't mean we have to like them.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. We've gone over the symbols. There are five.

...and therefore..?

Graystone was under the impression that there were 63 possible symbols, and that the symbols might therefore be necessarily complex. There are only five, therefore the symbols can be simple and intuitively understood.
I was going to stay out of this, but I'm starting to wonder if you were the one to design the symbols. I mean, not seriously, but you seem very invested in the idea that they will be intuitively understood by everyone, when that's not probable. By a majority, yes. By almost everyone (especially after some experience), sure. But even if we don't have a problem with them, doesn't mean we have to like them.

I'm of the belief that representing the numbers 0,1,2, and 3 can be universally understood, yes. Do you believe that people cannot count?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.

Standard action to attack, move action to move, standard action to use an item, standard action to cast a spell, move action to open a door, and while we're at it... move action to draw a weapon and how that can be combined with moving, use-activated vs command word, and supernatural vs spell-like.

Sovereign Court

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.

You are right, the "Actions in Combat" table is a better comparison.

Actions in Combat:
Standard Actions - Provokes an Attack of Opportunity
Attack (melee) No
Attack (ranged) Yes
Attack (unarmed) Yes
Activate a magic item other than a potion or oil No
Aid another Maybe2
Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) Yes
Channel energy No
Concentrate to maintain an active spell No
Dismiss a spell No
Draw a hidden weapon (see Sleight of Hand skill) No
Drink a potion or apply an oil Yes
Escape a grapple No
Feint No
Light a torch with a tindertwig Yes
Lower spell resistance No
Read a scroll Yes
Ready (triggers a standard action) No
Stabilize a dying friend (see Heal skill) Yes
Total defense No
Use extraordinary ability No
Use skill that takes 1 action Usually
Use spell-like ability Yes
Use supernatural ability No
Move Actions - Attack of Opportunity
Move Yes
Control a frightened mount Yes
Direct or redirect an active spell No
Draw a weapon3 No
Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Yes
Open or close a door No
Mount/dismount a steed No
Move a heavy object Yes
Pick up an item (see FAQ) Yes (see FAQ)
Sheathe a weapon Yes
Stand up from prone Yes
Ready or drop a shield3 No
Retrieve a stored item Yes
Full-Round Actions - Attack of Opportunity
Full attack No
Charge4 No
Deliver coup de grace Yes
Escape from a net Yes
Extinguish flames No
Light a torch Yes
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow Yes
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet Yes
Prepare to throw splash weapon Yes
Run Yes
Use skill that takes 1 round Usually
Use a touch spell on up to six friends Yes
Withdraw4 No
Free Actions - Attack of Opportunity
Cease concentration on a spell No
Drop an item No
Drop to the floor No
Prepare spell components to cast a spell5 No
Speak No
Swift Actions - Attack of Opportunity
Cast a quickened spell No
Immediate Actions - Attack of Opportunity1
Cast feather fall No
No Action Attack of Opportunity
Delay No
5-foot step No
Action Type Varies - Attack of Opportunity
Perform a combat maneuver6 Yes
Use feat Varies

Instead of full/standard/move/free/swift/immediate/not actions, we have 1,2, or 3 actions, free actions and reactions.

Instead of load a crossbow, light a torch, lock a locked gauntlet, and drink a potion, we have the Operate action.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.

It kinda is though. Because strike, stride, somatic, etc aren't action types in the sense that standard actions are. They are specific things you can do with those actions, codified into a more universal term. I'll use some PF1 examples for comparison.

Spoiler:
Strike = Attack action. Used for your basic single attack, but also things like Vital Strike. Is not used for full attacks. In PF2 terms, a Strike is always just a single basic attack. Vital Strike would be its own specific action, and full attacks are gone and replaced with just using Strike 3 times in a row. And we know for example whether an ability can be used in conjunction with PF2 power attack or just a standard Strike, because Strike is specifically named as opposed to just being an attack.

Stride = Move up to your speed as a move action. As opposed to standing up from prone as a move action or drawing a weapon as a move action or drawing a weapon as part of a move action... Or trading your standard for a move.

Operate Activation action = all sorts of stuff. In PF1, the equivalents of an Operate Activation action would include drinking a potion, readying and taking an extract, activating various types of items, etc. While I think it should just be an Operate action, this means we don't need separate rules for how each one of these specific things works, whether they provoke attacks of opportunity, etc.

Somatic/Verbal Action = casting a spell with the somatic components. The spell component actions don't have an equivalent PF1 action per se, but they do serve the purpose of telling you how many actions your spell uses up while simultaneously condensing the components of the spell into a much more relevant form. This also allows for more flexible casting by varying action cost, and let's some spells avoid provoking AoOs for example.

Interact Action = opening a door as a move action, steering a ship as a standard action, grabbing a bottle off a shelf as a move action, etc. All sorts of stuff can get lumped into this umbrella.

In PF1, you had to verify the "action cost" of any particular thing you wanted to do. In PF2, you will know at a glance how many actions it will cost and everything uses the same currency.

Stride/Strikes/Interact/Operate aren't comparable to standard/move/full-round/swift etc. They are comparable to all the different things you could do with a standard/move/full-round/swift etc. It is literally every possible way you can interact with the world, but it is still just "actions" on a one to one cost.

Codifying all these means that instead of having to write out specific rules every time you create a new item or way you interface with the world around you, you can just refer back to the basic rules.

For a specific example, there's an AP which features what is essentially a magic control panel. It takes 36 rounds of full round actions carefully tracing glyphs to complete its function, but up to 6 creatures can work it at once to shorten the time. The AP doesn't specify if you provoke AoOs when this happens.

In PF2, this would instead be changed to needing 102 Operate actions. This is shorter to write, and we know it provokes AoOs because Operates always do. It also allows for you to do stuff like have someone begin working the device on the same round they Stride up to it. It takes less space, provides more flexibility in play, and is also clearer.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.

You are right, the "Actions in Combat" table is a better comparison.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah, this is a pretty good comparison.

I think people forget how convoluted our actions are in PF1, and don't account for just how much stuff Strike/Stride/Operate/Interact etc condenses and clarifies. It isn't as obvious as how action Actions/Reaction/Free condenses and clarifies standard/move/full-round/swift/immediate/free/non-action/AoO, but it is very real.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
I'm of the belief that representing the numbers 0,1,2, and 3 can be universally understood, yes. Do you believe that people cannot count?

Yes. I also think the symbols "0,1,2,3" are pretty easy to understand as written. But you don't. So there is some disconnect between what we think is easy understand and indentify on the fly.

The example picture did not help. I can tell the glyphs mean something, and I can tell them apart at a glance. I can't tell what they're supposed to mean. I'm sure they'll be a key, but if I need a key that's a sign that they are a bit less intuitive and obvious than you've been saying. Also, counting similarly shaped objects in a close space, like the letters "lit" is a bit difficult for me to read, so yes I do anticipate some issues for me if the design falls a certain way.

As another example, I straight up cannot tell at a glance how many brackets are here: A]]]]. I typed it, so I know it's 4, but just looking at it, it could be 3, it could be 5, I honestly cannot tell without taking the time to examine it.

I really don't get your stance on this. Paizo has acknowledged that there may be difficulties for some players, and said that they'll look into options for the core rulebook if its a more widespread problem than they anticipate (without committing to anything, which is fair).


Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.
It kinda is though.

Well, not really, while I dig the Unchained RAE (always use it) that they using for PF2, and I find it much better than the Standard/Move/Swift/Immediate/Free action economy, all these micro-action terms are something else, and some are really clunky and ugly to read (Operation Activation action...I mean, please no...).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BretI wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


Alas, I'm trying to describe an image via text, and from a distance or at a glance that first image looks like a single diamond, the two action glyph looks like two overlapping diamonds, and the three action glyph looks like three overlapping diamonds.

Which brings up another problem with using glyphs,

Is Paizo going to release them for community use? When someone creates a stat block, how easy will it be for them to include the ‘standard’ glyphs? Will we have a way to insert them in the forum posts? I’m certain we will need them in the rules forums. People also have rules discussions on Discord, Google hangouts, and other media as well.

I am glad they are trying to improve the readability of the rules. I hope they do make it easier to establish at a glance various rules elements. I will wait and see how they look in the playtest, then ask a couple of people I know who have different vision problems what they think as well.

You don't need the exact glyph to get the meaning across. Diamonds are a pretty common symbol and it is pretty easy to copy or insert them from your favorite character map.

The following symbols would work just fine on the forums for instance:
♦, ♦♦, ♦♦♦, ◊, ❖


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KingOfAnything wrote:
BretI wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


Alas, I'm trying to describe an image via text, and from a distance or at a glance that first image looks like a single diamond, the two action glyph looks like two overlapping diamonds, and the three action glyph looks like three overlapping diamonds.

Which brings up another problem with using glyphs,

Is Paizo going to release them for community use? When someone creates a stat block, how easy will it be for them to include the ‘standard’ glyphs? Will we have a way to insert them in the forum posts? I’m certain we will need them in the rules forums. People also have rules discussions on Discord, Google hangouts, and other media as well.

I am glad they are trying to improve the readability of the rules. I hope they do make it easier to establish at a glance various rules elements. I will wait and see how they look in the playtest, then ask a couple of people I know who have different vision problems what they think as well.

You don't need the exact glyph to get the meaning across. Diamonds are a pretty common symbol and it is pretty easy to copy or insert them from your favorite character map.

The following symbols would work just fine on the forums for instance:
♦, ♦♦, ♦♦♦, ◊, ❖

Those are pretty cool, but I would prefer:

1 action, 2 actions, 3 actions, Reaction.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I'm of the belief that representing the numbers 0,1,2, and 3 can be universally understood, yes. Do you believe that people cannot count?

Yes. I also think the symbols "0,1,2,3" are pretty easy to understand as written. But you don't. So there is some disconnect between what we think is easy understand and indentify on the fly.

The example picture did not help. I can tell the glyphs mean something, and I can tell them apart at a glance. I can't tell what they're supposed to mean. I'm sure they'll be a key, but if I need a key that's a sign that they are a bit less intuitive and obvious than you've been saying. Also, counting similarly shaped objects in a close space, like the letters "lit" is a bit difficult for me to read, so yes I do anticipate some issues for me if the design falls a certain way.

As another example, I straight up cannot tell at a glance how many brackets are here: A]]]]. I typed it, so I know it's 4, but just looking at it, it could be 3, it could be 5, I honestly cannot tell without taking the time to examine it.

I really don't get your stance on this. Paizo has acknowledged that there may be difficulties for some players, and said that they'll look into options for the core rulebook if its a more widespread problem than they anticipate (without committing to anything, which is fair).

We know how brains work. Three objects is within the subitizing range in which we can quickly judge the number of items. Your bracket example works with four brackets, but does not work with only three.

My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them! Even in a crappy image. Reading that page takes much more effort than glancing at the number of shapes.

If you know how actions work in PF2 and that a single, solid diamond shape represents one action, you can be confident that two diamonds mean two, three mean three, and an empty diamond means a free action. That leaves a reaction as the half-filled diamond. If you know one thing, you know them all.


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Really off topic but whatever method they use should be compatible with accessibility devices and programs. In fact I hope that they expend resources to set up a process for that in the CRB which can be used for all 2E products.


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Well this thread went way off topic while I was sleeping. While I share and have expressed concerns about use of icons, that isn't really relevant to the Ranger, and there's already a thread for it...

My current concern is how many feats will it take to be competent / good at a given thing, especially with only five general feats and the first one not kicking in until 3rd. Like, if I want an animal companion and have to spend class feats to get one, does that mean I can't be good at combat myself? If I want to be a good trapper with the Ranger feats that interact with it, is that heavily at the expense of TWF or archery or other options? If I want to be a good style fighter as a monk does that mean I really don't get Ki at all?

In PF1, you could generally be good at 2 or 3 big things, and even if you hyper specialized in one big thing you could usually be decent or good in at least one more big thing, because you had both class abilities and feats to work with. Is that not doable in this edition?


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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.
It kinda is though.
Well, not really, while I dig the Unchained RAE (always use it) that they using for PF2, and I find it much better than the Standard/Move/Swift/Immediate/Free action economy, all these micro-action terms are something else, and some are really clunky and ugly to read (Operation Activation action...I mean, please no...).

Here's the thing you're missing bud. These aren't micro actions or whatever. They are a description of how doing different things fits into the action economy.

Since you're a fan of the Unchained RAE like I am, I'll try to use it to illustrate. These things aren't taking the place of actions and reactions as we use them now. What they are taking the place of is all THIS text from the RAE.

Spoiler:
Simple Actions
The following are some of the more common actions. To take any of them, you need to commit only 1 act (though some can be taken as free actions under special circumstances).

Aid Another: You take the aid another action. This action has all of the subtypes of the action you aid.

Appraise a Single Item: You spend time using your senses to appraise a single item that you can see. If you are holding the item, you gain a +2 bonus on the check and this action has the complex subtype.

Attack (Attack): You make one or more attacks against a single foe within your melee reach (if making a melee attack) or range (if making a ranged attack).

Bull Rush (Attack): You push a foe that is at most one size category larger than you straight back. Attempt a bull rush combat maneuver check. If you’re successful, you push the foe back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your check exceeds your foe’s CMD, you push that foe back 5 additional feet. You can choose to move along with the target if you have the necessary acts to do so. The foe’s movement doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have the Greater Bull Rush Feat.

Cast a Swift Spell: You cast a single spell or use a single spell-like ability with a casting time of 1 swift action.

Control a Frightened Mount (Complex): You attempt to control a mount that’s not trained for combat in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can’t try again until your next turn.

Crawl (Move): You crawl 5 feet while prone.

Demoralize: You shout threats at a foe within 30 feet that can see and hear you, attempting to demoralize it.

Direct or Redirect a Spell: If a spell allows you to redirect an effect to a new target, you take this action to do so.

Disarm (Attack): You attempt to disarm your foe. If your disarm combat maneuver check is successful, your foe drops one item of your choice that it’s carrying or wielding (even if it’s holding the item with two hands). If you exceed your foe’s CMD by 10 or more, the foe drops two items of your choice. If you fail your combat maneuver by 10 or more, you drop any weapon you were using to disarm your foe.

Dismiss a Spell: You dismiss the effects of a dismissible spell.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon: You draw or sheathe a weapon. If your base attack bonus is +0, this action provokes an attack of opportunity.

Escape a Grapple: You attempt to escape or gain control of a grapple by attempting either an Escape Artist check or a combat maneuver check. The second time in a turn you take this action, you take a –5 penalty on the check. The third time, you take a –10 penalty on the check.

Feint (Attack): You use Bluff to attempt a feint against an opponent. If you succeed, that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC for the next attack you make against it this turn. If you have the Improved Feint feat, this action doesn’t have the attack subtype.

Handle an Animal: You command an animal to perform a trick it knows by attempting a Handle Animal check. Some class abilities let characters attempt this as a free action.

Light a Torch with a Tindertwig or Open Flame: You ignite a torch with a tindertwig or an open flame.

Load a Hand Crossbow or Light Crossbow (Complex): You load a hand crossbow or a light crossbow with a bolt. If you have the Rapid Reload feat with the weapon you are reloading, this is a free action.

Lower or Reactivate Spell Resistance: You lower any spell resistance that is active, or reactivate a spell resistance that has been lowered.

Manipulate an Item (Complex): You grab an item that is in a backpack, pouch, pocket, or other similar container on your person; pick up an item; or move a heavy object. Sometimes, the GM might rule that manipulating an item is an advanced action and determine the number of acts that must be committed to succeed. Based on what you want to do, those actions may need to be committed consecutively.

Move (Move): You move up to your speed. Typically you move across the land at either a walk or a sprint, but this covers other movement modes, including burrowing, flying, jumping, and swimming.

Mount or Dismount a Steed (Move): You mount or dismount a steed. You can do this as a free action by attempting a DC 20 Ride check; failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity.

Open or Close a Door: You open or close a door that is within your reach (not counting expanded reach from reach weapons). You must have at least one hand free to take this action.

Overrun (Attack): You move up to your speed, and over the course of this action you attempt to move through the space of a foe that is no more than one size category larger than you. When attempting to move through your foe’s space, your foe can choose to allow you to pass through and let you continue your movement. If the foe doesn’t choose to or can’t let you move past, you attempt an overrun combat maneuver check. If you succeed, you move through the target’s space. If your check exceeds your foe’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, it gains a bonus to its CMD against overrun combat maneuvers equal to +2 for each additional leg it possesses. If you fail this check, your movement stops in the space directly in front of the opponent.

Ready a Simple Action or an Advanced Action: You ready a single simple or advanced action that you can take before the start of your next turn as a reaction. You must designate a definite trigger for that reaction (such as “if a foe attacks me,” “if a foe casts a spell,” or “if a foe moves adjacent to me”), and you must have enough acts left to complete the action you ready. Once you ready an action, your turn ends. If you don’t take the action you readied as a reaction by the start of your next turn, you lose that reaction.

Ready or Drop a Shield: You either strap a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to AC or unstrap and drop the shield. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can do either of these as a free action when you take the move simple action.

Search: You use Perception to search a room for salient hidden creatures or clues, or you make a detailed search of a 10-foot-square area to detect traps, triggers, hidden objects, or footprints. When you search an area, this action has the complex subtype.

Spell Combat (Attack, Complex): You make an attack roll with a light or one-handed melee weapon, then cast a spell on the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action. You take a –2 penalty on the melee attack, but the spell is cast regardless of whether the attack hits. If you cast the spell defensively, you can subtract your Intelligence bonus from the result of the attack roll to add the same value as a circumstance bonus on the concentration check. You must have the spell combat class feature to take this action, and can take this action only once per turn. To take this action, you must have one hand free. You can’t also take the following actions this turn: cast a standard-action spell or cast a 1-round-action spell.

Stand Up (Move): You stand up from being prone.

Step: You move 5 feet.

Sunder (Attack): You try to sunder an item held or worn by your foe. Attempt a sunder combat maneuver check. If you succeed, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the item’s hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has less than or equal to half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal reduces the object to 0 or fewer hit points, you can choose to destroy the object. If you choose not to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point.

Trip (Attack): You try to trip your opponent. Attempt a trip combat maneuver check against a foe that is no more than one size category larger than you. If you succeed, you knock the target prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, it gains a +2 bonus to its CMD against this attempt for each additional leg it possesses.

Use a Swift Ability: You use a single ability that can be used as a swift action.

Final Considerations
Some spells and abilities in the game grant extra actions.

The two benchmark abilities are the Combat Reflexes feat and the haste spell. The following describes how to use these in this system, which should serve as a guide for how to fit in similar abilities.

Combat Reflexes: If you have this feat, you can take a number of additional reactions between your turns equal to your Dexterity bonus, but those reactions can be used only to make attacks of opportunity. You gain all the other abilities of this feat.

Haste: When under the effects of haste, you gain 1 additional act each round, which can be used only to take an attack simple action. This doesn’t stack with any other effect that grants an increase in your number of acts per turn. If you have multiple effects that give you additional acts, you can pick only one such effect to benefit from each turn. You gain all the other benefits of the spell.

Advanced Actions
The following is a list of the main advanced actions in this system. The number of acts required to take each advanced action is listed in parentheses after the action’s subtype (if any).

Administer a Potion or Elixir, or Apply an Oil, to an Unconscious Creature (Complex; 3 Acts): You carefully administer a potion or elixir, or apply an oil, to an unconscious creature.

Appraise a Hoard (3 Acts): You examine a treasure hoard to determine the most valuable item in the hoard.

Cast a 1-Round-Action Spell (Complex; 3 Acts): You cast a spell with a casting time of 1 round. You can split the acts over 2 rounds, but those rounds must be consecutive. If you cast the entire spell in 1 turn, you can choose to have the spell’s effects manifest at the end of that turn or at the start of your next turn. This isn’t an attack action, even if the spell requires a ranged attack roll. If you provoke attacks of opportunity when casting the spell, you don’t provoke attacks a second time when making the ranged attack roll.

Cast a Standard-Action Spell (Complex; 2 Acts): You cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. This isn’t an attack action, even if the spell requires a ranged attack roll. If you provoke attacks of opportunity when casting the spell, you don’t provoke attacks a second time when making the ranged attack roll.

Charge (Move; 2 Acts): You move twice your speed directly toward a designated foe within your line of sight, ending the move in the closest space from which you can attack that foe. You must have a clear path to your foe. If anything hinders or blocks your movement along the path of a charge, you can’t take the charge action. As long as you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can draw a weapon as a free action at any point during the charge. At the end of the charge, you gain a +2 bonus on any melee attacks, bull rush combat maneuver checks, or overrun combat maneuver checks you attempt until the end of your turn, as long as those attacks or combat maneuver checks are made against the creature you designated when you charged.

Concentrate to Maintain an Active Spell (2 Acts): You concentrate to maintain an active spell.

Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt to tie up the creature with a rope.

Move: If you decide to move your target, immediately after the grapple, you can take a move simple action and move the creature you are grappling with you. At the end of that move action, you can place your target in any space adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, the target can attempt to free itself from the grapple as a reaction, and gains a +4 bonus on that attempt.

Damage: If you decide to damage your opponent, you deal an amount of damage equal to that of your unarmed strike, natural attack, armor spikes, or a light or one-handed weapon you are holding. You can choose to make this damage either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: If you decide to pin your target, the target gains the pinned condition. You continue to have the grappled condition, but lose your Dexterity bonus to AC until you are no longer pinning the target.

Tie Up a Grappled or Pinned Creature: If you have a rope in your hands, and you are grappling or pinning a foe, you can attempt a grapple combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty to tie up that foe. If you’re successful, the ropes pin the creature until they are removed or the pinned foe succeeds at a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check (DC = 20 + your CMB).

Deliver a Coup de Grace (Complex; 3 Acts): You use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe that isn’t immune to critical hits. You can also use a ranged weapon, but you must be adjacent to the foe. When you take this action, you automatically hit and confirm a critical hit. If the foe survives the damage, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + the damage dealt) or die.

Detect Forgery (3 Acts): You use Linguistics to examine a single page to detect a forgery.

Dirty Trick (Combat; 2 Acts): You attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver check. If you’re successful, the target gains one of the following conditions: blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your combat maneuver check exceeds the target’s CMD, the condition lasts for 1 additional round. The target or an ally adjacent to the target can remove the condition by committing 1 act. Removing a condition applied by a dirty trick does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Disable Device (Complex; At Least 3 Acts): You attempt to unlock a lock or disable another device. For every round the action takes, you must commit 3 acts. These acts may or may not need to be consecutive based on the nature of the device. For example, acts committed to open a lock or disable a trap must nearly always be consecutive. The GM may rule that some complex devices take more than 3 acts to disable; for example, a complex arcane machine that will cause a devastating calamity in 1 minute could take 10 acts to disable, though the acts may not need to be consecutive.

Drag (Combat; 2 Acts): You try to drag a foe that is no more than one size category larger than you 5 or more feet in a straight line. Attempt a drag combat maneuver check. If you succeed, you move 5 feet in one direction, and your opponent moves with you, staying adjacent to you. For every 5 by which your combat maneuver check exceeds the target’s CMD, you can move 5 additional feet in the same direction. You can’t drag a creature a distance greater than your speed with this advanced action. The target’s movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have the Greater Drag feat.

Drink a Liquid or Apply an Oil (Complex; 2 Acts): You drink a potion, elixir, or another liquid, or apply an oil, gaining that liquid or oil’s effects when the drinking or application is complete.

Escape from a Net (Complex; 2 Acts): You attempt to escape from a net entangling you. Attempt a DC 20 Escape Artist check; if you succeed, you escape from the net.

Extinguish Flames (Complex; 2 Acts): When on fire, you can roll on the ground or smother the fire with cloaks or similar objects to attempt another saving throw with a +4 bonus. If the saving throw is successful, you are no longer on fire.

Find Tracks (At Least 3 Acts): You use Survival to find tracks. This requires at least 3 consecutive acts and may take more, as determined by the GM. If you lose a trail, it takes longer to try again.

Initiate a Grapple (Attack; 2 Acts): You initiate a grapple against a creature within your melee reach.

Light a Torch (Complex; 3 Acts): You light a torch with a flint and steel.

Load a Heavy or Repeating Crossbow (Complex; 2 acts): You load a bolt in a heavy crossbow or place a new case of 5 bolts into a repeating crossbow.

Load a One-Handed Early Firearm (Complex; 2 Acts): You load a single barrel of a one-handed early firearm. If you have the Rapid Reload feat for that firearm, this is reduced to a simple action.

Load a Two-Handed Early Firearm (Complex; 3 Acts): You load a single barrel of a two-handed early firearm. If you have the Rapid Reload feat for that firearm, you need commit only 2 acts to reload that firearm.

Lock or Unlock a Weapon in a Locked Gauntlet (Complex; 2 Acts): You either lock a weapon into a locked gauntlet or unlock a weapon already fastened to a locked gauntlet.

Make All Natural Attacks (Attack; 3 Acts): A creature that is using only its natural attacks can make all its natural attacks with this action instead of making separate attacks with attack simple actions.

Prepare a Flask of Oil as a Splash Weapon (Complex; 2 Acts): You prepare a flask of oil with a fuse so that you can throw it as a splash weapon.

Provide First Aid, Treat a Wound, or Treat Poison (Complex; 2 Acts): You provide first aid, treat a wound, or treat poison using the Heal skill.

Push an Animal (3 Acts): You attempt a Handle Animal check to get an animal to perform a trick it doesn’t know but is physically capable of doing, or to push the animal to its limits. If the animal has taken hit point damage, nonlethal damage, or ability score damage, the DC of this check increases by 2. Characters with animal companions, such as druids or rangers, can push their companions as simple actions instead.

Reposition (Combat; 2 Acts): You attempt a reposition combat maneuver check against a foe that is no more than one size category larger than you. If you succeed, you force that foe to move 5 feet. For every 5 by which your check exceeds the target’s Combat Maneuver Defense, you can move that target an additional 5 feet. When you reposition the target, it must stay within your threatened area during all but the last 5 feet of the reposition movement, which can be to a space adjacent to your threatened area.

Run (Move; 3 Acts): You move four times your speed in a straight line. When you do, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score; each round after that, you must succeed at a Constitution check to continue running (DC = 10 + 1 per previous check). If you fail, you stop running and are staggered for a number of minutes equal to 10 – your Constitution bonus (minimum 1).

Sleight of Hand (Complex; 2 Acts): You use Sleight of Hand to palm an object or perform some feat of legerdemain. You can attempt this as a simple action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. In either case, if your check fails by 5 or more, you provoke an attack of opportunity from any creature from which you are trying to take an object with this action.

Spellstrike (Complex; 2 Acts): You cast a spell from the magus spell list with a range of touch, but instead of making a touch attack, you make a melee attack with a weapon you are wielding. If the attack hits, the attack deals its normal damage as well as any effects of the spell. You must have the spellstrike class feature to take this action.

Steal (Combat; 2 Acts): You attempt a steal combat maneuver check against a foe within your melee reach (not counting expanded reach from reach weapons). You must have at least one hand free, and must select the item to be stolen before attempting the check. Items fastened to a foe grant the foe a +5 (or higher) bonus to its CMD against this attempt, and items securely worn can’t be stolen in this way. If you’re successful, you take the item you chose from the opponent.

Total Defense (2 Acts): You concentrate on defense rather than attacking. Until the start of your next turn, you can’t take actions with the attack subtype, and you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC. If you already took an attack action earlier in the turn, you gain only a +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics, these bonuses increase to +6 and +3, respectively.

Use a Command Word Item (2 Acts): You activate a magic item with a command word.

Use a Spell Completion Item (Complex; 2 Acts): You cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action from a spell completion item. This isn’t an attack action, even if the spell requires a ranged attack roll. If you provoke attacks of opportunity when casting the spell, you don’t provoke further attacks when making the ranged attack roll.

Use a Spell Trigger Item (2 Acts): You cast a spell from a spell trigger item. This isn’t an attack action, even if the spell requires a ranged attack roll. If you provoke attacks of opportunity when casting the spell, you don’t provoke further attacks when making the ranged attack roll.

Use a Standard-Action Supernatural Ability (2 Acts): You use a supernatural ability that can be used as a standard action in the default action economy.

Use a Touch Spell on up to Six Allies (Complex; 3 Acts): If you cast a spell that allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, this action allows you to touch up to six willing creatures within your melee reach (not counting expanded reach from reach weapons).

All of those rules for what any specific task costs can now be replaced with, say, a dozen or so short-hand actions for the basic things you can do. And then special actions you unlock through your class or feats or whatever can easily just reference back to that as well.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:

We know how brains work. Three objects is within the subitizing range in which we can quickly judge the number of items. Your bracket example works with four brackets, but does not work with only three.

My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them! Even in a crappy image. Reading that page takes much more effort than glancing at the number of shapes.

And I'm telling you, I can't do it. Not as easily as you. Two is the limit for me; three similar objects blur, and four might as well be anything from three to seven, all looks the same. Edit: like your diamond example; in context I knew you typed out three diamonds, but it looked like four to me at first glance. This is a learning disability I've struggled with my entire life. It's not debilitating, but certain tasks are harder, and in a playtest meant to appeal to a broad audience, useful feedback is "this doesn't work for me, this is why."


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

Well this thread went way off topic while I was sleeping. While I share and have expressed concerns about use of icons, that isn't really relevant to the Ranger, and there's already a thread for it...

My current concern is how many feats will it take to be competent / good at a given thing, especially with only five general feats and the first one not kicking in until 3rd. Like, if I want an animal companion and have to spend class feats to get one, does that mean I can't be good at combat myself? If I want to be a good trapper with the Ranger feats that interact with it, is that heavily at the expense of TWF or archery or other options? If I want to be a good style fighter as a monk does that mean I really don't get Ki at all?

In PF1, you could generally be good at 2 or 3 big things, and even if you hyper specialized in one big thing you could usually be decent or good in at least one more big thing, because you had both class abilities and feats to work with. Is that not doable in this edition?

My hope, though it remains to be seen, is that you get enough feats to be good at two things, and that general feats aren't really at play with that, and are more about breadth than power increase (for example, anyone can pick up snare crafting, as opposed to 'to be good at TWF you need this feat chain'). I think that this idea is certainly possible, based on what we've seen from the druid preview, you only get new class feat options every 4 levels or so, but get feats every two levels, so if there's somewhere in the range of 5-7 animal feats, you could be great with an Animal Companion, while also being able to be as great or nearly as great at another subset of ranger abilities. But it remains to be seen if this will be the case, as we've only seen the upper levels of the druid's feats, and so there might be way more lower level feats, and being great with an animal companion might mean the majority of your feats.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.
It kinda is though.
Well, not really, while I dig the Unchained RAE (always use it) that they using for PF2, and I find it much better than the Standard/Move/Swift/Immediate/Free action economy, all these micro-action terms are something else, and some are really clunky and ugly to read (Operation Activation action...I mean, please no...).

Here's the thing you're missing bud. These aren't micro actions or whatever. They are a description of how doing different things fits into the action economy.

Since you're a fan of the Unchained RAE like I am, I'll try to use it to illustrate. These things aren't taking the place of actions and reactions as we use them now. What they are taking the place of is all THIS text from the RAE.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is it much better to have the descriptions of the action type on the item or ability itself rather than in a quick reference list? I'm not convinced.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.


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I can only make sense of the bestiary icons after reading the entry. Like if it's a devil I can figure that out from the text and then conclude "oh, that's what that one means."

Silver Crusade

Can someone tell me if Rangers still get animal Companions?


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Lou Diamond wrote:
Can someone tell me if Rangers still get animal Companions?
Paizo Blog wrote:

Ranger Feats

Class feats, of course, determine the flavor of individuals within a class, and the ranger is no different. Specific ranger feats allow him to gain an animal companion at the same progression as a druid's, though potentially with special benefits that only a ranger can obtain.

Looks like it's now an optional feature of the class that you can invest in if you want.


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Lou Diamond wrote:
Can someone tell me if Rangers still get animal Companions?

Yes, by technicality. Per the blog, you can spend class feats to do so.

Edit: Ninja'd by literally 1 second XD


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Lou Diamond wrote:
Can someone tell me if Rangers still get animal Companions?

The Blog states early that they can choose to get Animal companions at the same progression as Druid and that there's some abilities only Ranger can get for them!

Silver Crusade

Ditch snares and give Rangers back their animal companions as a regular class feature not an optional class features. Or better yet mare snares Optional and Animal Companions Regular Animal Companions are Iconic Snares are not and are very niche to begin with encounters are 1 in a 100 where a snare would be useful or is Paizo going to write encounters in new material for one class ability from one class to be useful.


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ErichAD wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Just to let you guys know, the designers are all off for a long holiday weekend. I came in for a partial day today specifically to reply to this thread just in case, but I'm not going to be watching it as closely from now on. For all other Pathfinder fans from the USA, have a great Independence day!

EDIT: As typing this I noticed something. [[F]] is a free action, not Focus. Focus is a type of action you can do for mental activated items (and sometimes spellcasting or item activations will be free or reactions, like feather fall, so it's possible to do a Focus free action too).

Aaarrrgg another action type. Too many actionn types guys, way too many

There are three actions and one reaction. Sometimes things cost more than one action. Sometimes things don't cost any.

Or did you get confused in 1E when it said "as a standard action"?

That's not really a valid comparison to Strike action, Stride action, Operation Activation action, Somatic action, Interact basic action, and what-have-you.
It kinda is though.
Well, not really, while I dig the Unchained RAE (always use it) that they using for PF2, and I find it much better than the Standard/Move/Swift/Immediate/Free action economy, all these micro-action terms are something else, and some are really clunky and ugly to read (Operation Activation action...I mean, please no...).

Here's the thing you're missing bud. These aren't micro actions or whatever. They are a description of how doing different things fits into the action economy.

Since you're a fan of the Unchained RAE like I am, I'll try to use it to illustrate. These things aren't taking the place of actions and reactions as we use them now. What they are taking the place of is all THIS text from the RAE.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is it much better to have the descriptions of the action type on the item or ability itself rather than in a quick reference list?

When those action types include everything as basic as "open a door" to anything else you can think of? Yes, it is massively simpler.

Seriously, let's look at a specific example from my spoiler tag.

Manipulate an Item (Complex): You grab an item that is in a backpack, pouch, pocket, or other similar container on your person; pick up an item; or move a heavy object. Sometimes, the GM might rule that manipulating an item is an advanced action and determine the number of acts that must be committed to succeed. Based on what you want to do, those actions may need to be committed consecutively.

This is what is getting cleaned up here.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lou Diamond wrote:

Ditch snares and give Rangers back their animal companions as a regular class feature not an optional class features. Or better yet mare snares Optional and Animal Companions Regular Animal Companions are Iconic Snares are not and are very niche to begin with encounters are 1 in a 100 where a snare would be useful or is Paizo going to write encounters in new material for one class ability from one class to be useful.

I think snares are also optional.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.

Yes. My point is that the glyphs they are using for actions are very different from the bestiary symbols and so your experience with the Bestiary does not provide any useful information about PF2.


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Lou Diamond wrote:

Ditch snares and give Rangers back their animal companions as a regular class feature not an optional class features. Or better yet mare snares Optional and Animal Companions Regular Animal Companions are Iconic Snares are not and are very niche to begin with encounters are 1 in a 100 where a snare would be useful or is Paizo going to write encounters in new material for one class ability from one class to be useful.

Snares are optional in PF2. Also, animal companions were still optional in PF1. XD

Hunter's Bond PF1:
At 4th level, a ranger forms a bond with his hunting companions. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed. The first is a bond to his companions. This bond allows him to spend a move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the ranger’s Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). This bonus does not stack with any favored enemy bonuses possessed by his allies; they use whichever bonus is higher.

The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the ranger may choose a shark instead. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. A ranger’s animal companion shares his favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.

This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger’s effective druid level is equal to his ranger level –3

The difference between the AC now and the AC then is:

1) You have more choices you can take instead of just the pet and the companion bond.
2) You can get the pet at level 1. (This is an assumption on my part actually, but feels like a safe one.)
3) The pet is as strong as a druid's without having to pay a separate feat to keep up.
4) You seem to be able to get some special perks unique to a ranger with your pet.

The animal companion seems by all rights to be something you can make even more integral to the ranger than ever. You just have a longer list of things you can do instead.


Wandering Wastrel wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.

And yet people have been incredibly confused about them when [[A]] [[R]] and [[F]] have come up as markers in the blogs, because it turns out those can all be used as shorthand letters for a ton of other things.


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Cyouni wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.

And yet people have been incredibly confused about them when [[A]] [[R]] and [[F]] have come up as markers in the blogs, because it turns out those can all be used as shorthand letters for a ton of other things.

And random symbols that could be associated with anything are somehow better? At least I can guess [[a]] has something to do with an 'a' word... What does a triangle, diamond or hexagon relate to? A word that starts with a triangle, diamond or hexagon? ;)

Silver Crusade

Captain Morgan, it makes since getting AC's at level one rather than level you do not have to worry abot them being 4 levels weaker then they should be.

Druids, Rangers or any other class that gets animal companions should have AC"s that work the same. if you want to have them work differently amoungst the clases do that by class feats not how the Class Feature works.

Frount loading of a class sould not matter as I have been told by PAZIO staff the reason that more high level modules wewre not written for 1st ed was because of low sales for high level modules.

So IIMO Animal Companions and other Class features that scale as the PC levels should be given at first level and uniqueness between classes should be done through feats.

Silver Crusade

Captain Morgan, it makes since getting AC's at level one rather than level you do not have to worry abot them being 4 levels weaker then they should be.

Druids, Rangers or any other class that gets animal companions should have AC"s that work the same. if you want to have them work differently amoungst the clases do that by class feats not how the Class Feature works.

Frount loading of a class sould not matter as I have been told by PAZIO staff the reason that more high level modules wewre not written for 1st ed was because of low sales for high level modules.

So IIMO Animal Companions and other Class features that scale as the PC levels should be given at first level and uniqueness between classes should be done through feats.


graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.

And yet people have been incredibly confused about them when [[A]] [[R]] and [[F]] have come up as markers in the blogs, because it turns out those can all be used as shorthand letters for a ton of other things.
And random symbols that could be associated with anything are somehow better? At least I can guess [[a]] has something to do with an 'a' word... What does a triangle, diamond or hexagon relate to? A word that starts with a triangle, diamond or hexagon? ;)

Well, it's not going to go cross-design, for example. For a good while, people thought [[R]] was for resonance instead of a reaction. Same thing with [[F]] for free action vs focus. If there are only one set of symbols, you know the symbols all refer to the same framework.


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Lou Diamond wrote:

Captain Morgan, it makes since getting AC's at level one rather than level you do not have to worry abot them being 4 levels weaker then they should be.

Druids, Rangers or any other class that gets animal companions should have AC"s that work the same. if you want to have them work differently amoungst the clases do that by class feats not how the Class Feature works.

Frount loading of a class sould not matter as I have been told by PAZIO staff the reason that more high level modules wewre not written for 1st ed was because of low sales for high level modules.

So IIMO Animal Companions and other Class features that scale as the PC levels should be given at first level and uniqueness between classes should be done through feats.

I have no idea what point you are making here. I too think rangers should get the same level progression as the druid, and they should be available at level 1 for both classes. This was not the case in PF1, but all indications are that it will be the case in PF2. This is a good thing.

No clue why you brought frontloading up.

If your argument is that animal companions should become a mandatory part of the base ranger, well, you are out of luck. That's not how PF1 worked, it won't be how PF2 worked, and I would argue it isn't how it should ever work. Not every Ranger wants to have a pet, nor does every druid. The animal companion is a particularly bad feature to saddle someone with if it doesn't fit their concept, because it also presents a tremendous amount of extra book keeping.

There are specific classes which have a pet baked into their core concept so much they have to be mandatory, like the Cavalier or the Hunter. But the druid and ranger should no more be forced to get a pet than the paladin is.


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Cyouni wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
My stance is trying to get across the point that if you can tell the symbols apart, you can identify them!

Disagree there. Case in point: the bestiary icons for PF1. I can tell them apart, in that I can see that they don't look identical. Not a single solitary clue what any of them means.

For comparison: [1A] [2A] [3A] [R] [F]

Crystal clear.

And yet people have been incredibly confused about them when [[A]] [[R]] and [[F]] have come up as markers in the blogs, because it turns out those can all be used as shorthand letters for a ton of other things.
And random symbols that could be associated with anything are somehow better? At least I can guess [[a]] has something to do with an 'a' word... What does a triangle, diamond or hexagon relate to? A word that starts with a triangle, diamond or hexagon? ;)
Well, it's not going to go cross-design, for example. For a good while, people thought [[R]] was for resonance instead of a reaction. Same thing with [[F]] for free action vs focus. If there are only one set of symbols, you know the symbols all refer to the same framework.

What I'm saying is that there is an instant association with letter to word that starts with that letter and that isn't the case with symbols. A diamond doesn't jump out as one kind of action like a blue drop evokes water or a red flame fire.

Now if there are only 5 symbols, they are of course easier to figure out than a bigger collecting of symbols but that doesn't mean they jump out as what they are linked as or are easy to recall.

Dark Archive

Does Hunt Target seem like it is trying to emulate the weapon styles of the ranger in PF1?


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brad2411 wrote:
Does Hunt Target seem like it is trying to emulate the weapon styles of the ranger in PF1?

Nope.

The PF2 Ranger is more like a Ranger w/ Scout/Guide archetypes or a Slayer. But in this <10> critting system, Paizo is being more frugal with bonuses so instead framed the Ranger's core ability as penalty reductions which are still good enough not to add a damage bonus too. A Ranger can expect to crit more to make up for it.

If I recall, Paizo mentioned Rangers having Double Slice as a TWF feat option (like Fighters do) so we should expect to have some archery feats too to get at least those styles (and likely can take both styles due to PF2's structure). I doubt they'll address all the styles.
Sadly, Double Slice (which ignores one iterative penalty) doesn't interact well w/ Hunt Target (which reduces iterative penalties).


Castilliano wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
Does Hunt Target seem like it is trying to emulate the weapon styles of the ranger in PF1?

Nope.

The PF2 Ranger is more like a Ranger w/ Scout/Guide archetypes or a Slayer. But in this <10> critting system, Paizo is being more frugal with bonuses so instead framed the Ranger's core ability as penalty reductions which are still good enough not to add a damage bonus too. A Ranger can expect to crit more to make up for it.

If I recall, Paizo mentioned Rangers having Double Slice as a TWF feat option (like Fighters do) so we should expect to have some archery feats too to get at least those styles (and likely can take both styles due to PF2's structure). I doubt they'll address all the styles.
Sadly, Double Slice (which ignores one iterative penalty) doesn't interact well w/ Hunt Target (which reduces iterative penalties).

Hunt Target can still apply when you use a 3rd or 4th attack though. And Double Slice only applies weakness once, so I think Rangers will wind up not always using it.

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