Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

I really liked the weapons descriptions until we hit vorpal; I HOPE that the focus activation is intended to occur after the trigger, and isn't something you have to do to prime the trigger; both are bad but this is probably a necessary balance change if vorpal is to 'only' cost 15 k gp. Since we now know the better weapon abilities will be gated with extra action requirements, I assume that two weapon fighter fans should again play another system? Or can multiple weapons be activated simultaneously? Will that have a feat tax? Is vorpal pretty much the only ability which is so gated, and therefore this line of questioning is pointless?

The focus activation is a reaction. Those generally happen after whatever triggers them.

This is not always true. One of the focus actions in an example item from Monday is a reaction, but I believe there were also action and even free examples given.

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Eh, I'm getting feeling that while resonance is okay for scrolls, wands and staves, Potions should get Potion Miscibility table instead were if you drink multiple ones under minute you get to roll d100 :P

That would restrict use of potions without resulting in silly immersion breaking stuff(because seriously, you having to use resonance to drink magic potions just sounds really weird)

Anyhoo, interesting to hear that magic weapons and armors don't use resonance(though apparently some of effects do? Thats bit confusing. Like why does Vorpal weapon quality require resonance? Its already nat 20 and nat 20 only effect, so it seems bit weird for you to invest in something that activates only 20% of the time and thats if the high level creatures aren't immune to beheading.

Anyway, yeah, I agree that its weird if resonance is supposed to reduce amount of "per day uses" being tracked that you STILL need to track per day uses. That is just contradictory. Its why I would prefer it that resonance gives you amount of charges to be used in wands rather than it recharging the battery.

Also yeah, starting to agree that Somatic/Verbal action is clearer than Operate and Activate actions


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Mathmuse wrote:

-I think I see the welds in the structure of resonance and can deduce its purpose. Resonance has several different goals.

1) Resonance was designed to combine all X-uses-per-turn magic items into tapping into one common pool. Hence, it is a resource point system.
2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.
3) Wands' charges fit under the resonance system, which gave another possible benefit of resonance: it could prevent spamming wands of Cure Light Wounds. But preventing the spamming of wands would just push the spamming down to potions or scrolls. Therefore, potions and scrolls also cost resonance.

1) It's failed and the playtest hasn't even been published yet. We still have 1/day items which are just as bad as 10/day IMO. And we have at least one 3/day item.

2) It's failed to create a less complicated system. It's pretty intuitive to say "you can only wear one pair of boots" or "one pair of gloves" or "one pair of glasses". The biggest problem cases were rings were arbitrarily restricted (probably because of how powerful they can be), circlet and headband were confusing and chest vs torso. Except for these edge cases the system as a whole was pretty inutitive. Investing in resonance, spending resonance and the items which need investment vs don't need investment are every bit as arbitrary as the body slot system. So the new system isn't simpler.
3) Wands are another example of how point #1 has failed. Not only do I have to spend resonance, but I also have to spend charges!? WTF? Wands are crap (and let's be honest, with the exception of a partly charged wand how often were they used beyond level 3 except for healing purposes?).

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2) Some of body slot items were kind of confusing though since they were clearly in wrong slot(body and chest slot items created the most confusion) and it did create feeling of "AH I still have empty slots, I have to fill them!" even though you didn't really need to. And sometimes there was thing of "SO wait, I can't wear this and this at same time? Why?"

So yeah, I would say new system is actually simpler assuming that items don't end up having slots anyway.

Anyway, I have to say that I do really like that weapons don't require resonance because it would punish people with lot of back up weapons if it did. Like, if you have dual wielding character with ranged weapon as back up, that would be really punishing to require 3 resonance just so you can do what you do.

3) Also dude, thats bs there :D High level attack wands are expensive, but really good. And you mostly use wands for buffs where you don't care they are relatively short lived(such as see invisibility)

But yeah, do have to concur it would actually be cooler if they made wands to be like potions and more unique items than "spells in can"


well that it time to educate few fools. is any of you play path of exiles since the rune system basicly taken from there. in my vision at least each rune comes with gem and you put gem in the weapons slot so there is no immersion breking on my part. And for resonance we kinda have items that increase resonance which named head band of charisma. this little sucker gives you additional resonance equal to its enchantment bonus with cost of one just one resonance. As for potions they feel in the perfect please cheap enough that you can buy at the start of the game but useless enough in late game that you need better ones in later levels. as CLW abuse thank gods its kinda reighned since none of my games wand of CLW used that much to become problem.


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Thinking abut wands, because they haven't been explained yet, I would love to see something like this:

A wand is a focus item containing the mystic pattern of a spell cast at a specific level. Typically this will be the lowest available level for that spell, but higher casting level wands do exist. In order to use a wand you can either.
1. Spend 1 RP and cast that spell at the wand's listed level
2.. Expend a memorised spell or spell slot (for spontaneous casters) of at least the wand's caster level and cast the wand spell at the level of that slot.

So Bob the wizard acquires a wand of water breathing before the party go visit the elemental plane of water. He can burn through his RP to keep everyone breathing, or he can sacrifice the memorised Fireball that probably isn't going to be much use instead.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Some of body slot items were kind of confusing though since they were clearly in wrong slot(body and chest slot items created the most confusion)

Right. I fully acknowledge that the body slot system could have been simplified by dealing with:

* chest and body
* headband and head
* rings

more elegantly than PF1e did. THat doesn't mean the entire system is complicated. It means that there were a handful of areas of confusion that could have been dealt with.

CorvusMask wrote:
it did create feeling of "AH I still have empty slots, I have to fill them!"

Can't say I ever really had that problem. But fine, let's say for this discussion it's a widespread problem. Paizo have dealt with this problem by making you pay out of a limited pool everytime you want to wear magic items and/or use them. So yeah, people won't want to fill every slot, but only because magic items have become so unattractive that you'll use a handful of regular items that are optimal for 90% of situations you encounter and might keep one or two for in case of an emergency or the unexpected.

CorvusMask wrote:
I would say new system is actually simpler

I strongly disagree. We have investments for permanent all day abilities, except when the item doesn't require an investment and can be freely used. We have charges and resonance that both have to be tracked. And we have a number of buzzwords that ultimately could probably just translate to "use X number of actions to activate" but at this point represent a barrier of entry, thus negating the "simple"ness of the new system.

CorvusMask wrote:
assuming that items don't end up having slots anyway.

I hope for your sake you only game in a home game and I hope for the sake of everyone who plays PFS that the organisers put out some very strict rules as to what items can be worn on the same appendage. Because otherwise you're going to have tons of people trying to do cheesy and eyeroll worthy things like wearing 10 pairs of shoes at once or trying to wear 5 different cloaks at once and GMs inconsistently saying yay or nay.

CorvusMask wrote:
have to say that I do really like that weapons don't require resonance because it would punish people with lot of back up weapons if it did.

Resonance punishes you anytime you try to use an item that isn't optimal or used in 90% of situations. That is a key aspect of how resonance works. The fact fighters need such a glaring exception to be functional is a major issue with resonance.

CorvusMask wrote:
3) Also dude, thats bs there :D

Like, it's totally not and it's completely gnarly that you'd say that.

CorvusMask wrote:
High level attack wands are expensive, but really good.

How often would you buy a 50 charge high level wand? Genuinely curious. The only time my group uses them is when we find them for treasure. I've certainly never seen anyone in PFS buy them either. 90% of wands I see are level 1 wands even if I exclude wands of CLW (because of their ubiquity they'd schew the maths to 99%).

CorvusMask wrote:
And you mostly use wands for buffs where you don't care they are relatively short lived(such as see invisibility)

Woah dude! You've like completely spun me out and proven me wrong. High level wands are used all the time. Why that one example is like, totally a level 2 spell dude! That's on a whole new level and completely counts as high level in the context of a 1-9 scale. Man...

khadgar567 wrote:
well that it time to educate few fools. is any of you play path of exiles since the rune system basicly taken from there. in my vision at least each rune comes with gem and you put gem in the weapons slot so there is no immersion breking on my part. And for resonance we kinda have items that increase resonance which named head band of charisma. this little sucker gives you additional resonance equal to its enchantment bonus with cost of one just one resonance. As for potions they feel in the perfect please cheap enough that you can buy at the start of the game but useless enough in late game that you need better ones in later levels. as CLW abuse thank gods its kinda reighned since none of my games wand of CLW used that much to become problem.

I spammed Knights of the Round Table so hard! If PF2e comes out with a summoner supplement that just has FFVII summons I will totally buy it.


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For all the reasons that others have posted about above (and I have Faved many of them), this blog has worsened my attitude about Pathfinder 2nd Edition from Attitude Annoyance Aggravation Unfriendly 1 to Attitude Annoyance Aggravation Unfriendly 2.


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On the topic of Resonance Consumables, I'm just going to say, I don't think Resonance for consumables is wrong, but I think it would be a system that benefited from "This class of consumables doesn't cost resonance, but is significantly more expensive, relative to WBL (and for certain things maybe even has a secondary downside, to prevent spam at higher levels)" and "This class of items is cheap for WBL, but costs resonance". The resonance consumables will be the best option for when you're fairly sure you're not going to run out, but you'll save the second one in a pinch.

As for weapons and armor, I'm glad to see some of the changes. I know I tend to build into a concept that doesn't always work with prepublished adventures, like a Shelynite fighter, who finds a bunch of Longswords and Greataxes, but never a glaive. And as a GM, it's always a tight line to walk about how much you skew with the treasure to make it useful for the players (and all the hassles if and when you decide not to do that). I Feel like the changes to vorpal are probably good ones, balance wise, as 1 in 20 hits potentially decapitating someone seems a bit iffy to do all day without a cost, but it does seem a little underwhelming, since it'd be a crit anyway (and at that caster level, probably at least on a +4 weapon. As for invisibility armor, I don't mind double dipping on 1/day stuff, but the greater form bugs me a bit.

Much has been said about the healing potions' cost scaling, so I won't repeat it, other than to point to above, that the gp cost/resonance trade off could possibly be better served by separate items rather than a single progression.

I like the Dragon's Breath Potion, though I really do wish the DC wasn't fixed. With Saving throw scaling as it is, I foresee a pretty tight window for each of these levels, and I think the damage scaling does enough to make the older versions less desirable. Also, I think the recharge could be higher, and maybe not cost RP every use (I could probably settle with spend up to X RP on consumption, for each RP spent, this potion lasts 1 hour/X, such that one RP gets you through a couple fights, but if you're facing a fresh dungeon, you might go with more). Just spitballing, but it does seem like overkill. I don't mind consumables costing RP, but this does feel like a path to disappointed players (i.e. Well, the gp cost is static, but the cost per breath attack is lower the more I use it, but the resonance cost is dependent on usage, so you can wind up feeling like you conserved your resonance, but wasted gold, or you were prudent with your gold, but wasted resonance)

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I think I said it wrong what I meant:

My point was, what is point of system that replaces magic item slots if magic items still have slots? I mean, I already find it dumb if you can have multiple cloaks, so I assume new system will still have slots to prevent that.

But I guess point of the system is less of "replacing magic item slots" and more balancing how many magic items you can have in different manner?

I was honestly thinking of wands in term of npcs equipment or loot yeah :D

Oh sorry, well, I did miss the "high level" part. That said, you do remember that 4th level is max wand level right? You can't buy high level wands than that.

Anyway, I do agree that its getting bit confusing what is actually point of resonance system. Like intended stated goal is to replace per day use items into same pool and magic item slots, but considering both of latter exists, it seems bit confusing if there is any other goal to it than make weaker version of magic items less appealing compared to more expensive higher level versions. I'm not still in the camp "Rar, just throw it to the trash and use exact same system as 1e", but it definitely feels like it needs work.

(to note: I don't personally actually mind magic item slots, though I've been told by my players often that they are rather meaningless since some slots are kind of useless or confusing)


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CorvusMask wrote:
That said, you do remember that 4th level is max wand level right? You can't buy high level wands than that.

No. I didn't remember that. Because my group never tried to buy wands higher than level 1 (maybe level 2 with the rare exceptions. Although if we want invisibility we'd probably just splurge and go for a ring of invisibility).

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I'm another agreeing Dudemeister and rainzax, the whole system needs to be simplified.
If an item gives a constant bonus, Invest
If an item produces a powerful effect, spend RP - and they shouldn't have x1 or x3 uses per day either, let people use them as much as their resonance will allow.
Hell, some items shouldn't cost RP to use at all, a bag of holding should function fine without having to invest it in or spending RP to open the damn thing.
Consumable items (potions, scrolls, ect) shouldn't cost resonance either, chances are they're going to take 3 actions to actually use in combat (1 action to draw, 2 actions to activate), that along with the gold cost should be possible to balance it out quite well. I've never had players abuse consumable items during fights, and I've only really seen it occur once in a PFS scenario by NPCs.
Trinkets attached to armor and weapons should be the exception to consumable items not costing resonance since they seem to be free actions to use.

Various posts have mentioned the use of the medical skill to patch up party members, which hopefully means that potions and various magical healing affects will be used in battle to make sure everyone survives rather than magical band-aids after combat. This ought to stop people from saving all of the RP for healing, you might save your last point or two just in case you need to quaff down a potion but that should (assuming potions continue to use RP)

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Skerek wrote:
Hell, some items shouldn't cost RP to use at all, a bag of holding should function fine without having to invest it in or spending RP to open the damn thing.

I agree with most of the rest (I disagree on consumables, but don't want to get into that right now), but this category of items already exists. We don't know if Bags of Holding are in it, but they could be. Just to be clear.


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OK, long post incoming with my thoughts on the Blog and subsequent comments (apologies for not quoting, but I read most of the thread on my phone while away from my laptop, and these boards make multiquoting a PITA anyway).

On resonance: I have been largely positive about resonance for reasons that I may have probably posted before (short version: there needs to be some significant restriction on magic items other than gold, or gold becomes a point buy power system, and that means that spending non trivial amounts of gold on anything other than magic items becomes a trap). That said, when we first heard about it a lot of us thought that it meant the end of charges and per day limits, and now it seems we have both (I could have sworn that Mark had said that daily limits were gone, but I guess I must have misremembered or miread).

I think it would be a much eaiser sell if we could get rid of at least one of those things entirely. Or almost entirely - for exmple, if Luck Blades still let you cast Wish I would be fine with that having a daily (or weekly or higher) limit in addition to costing resonance.

I also think it should generally not apply to consumables. If this breaks wands, then change wands! Wands as spell batteries is kinda weird from a flavour POV and does potentially detrimental things to balance, so it would not be any great loss to make more like implements. Which would also have the benefit of getting rid of one more instance of charge tracking. I think that staffs specifically have charges as their sctick is a lot more palatable.

None of these things are necesarily deal breaker for me, more like mild irritations. But I am worried that they will be for other people and I am concerned that that will create negative feedback, and the baby will end up being thrown out with the bath water.

As an aside, someone upthread mentioned feeding a cleric a dozen potions to try to get them back on their feet and none of them working. The DC is 10+your overspend, so either 50 or 55% chance of success depending on whether you count the resonance you are trying to spend. The chance of failing 12 coin flips in a row is 1 in 4096, so that is one unlucky cleric!

On CLW spam etc: I think there are two things going on here. One is the aesthetic of high-level character activating an item 20 times to get there hp back, and the other is characters going into every fight at full hp or damn close to it relative cheaply (or at all). Different people have problems with the first, the second, both, or neither. Personally, I have an very mild dislike for the aesthetics of CLW use, but I think being abe to get your hp back for cheap is a extremely good thing so I am more than happy to put up with it. Any solution to "happy stick" spam that means I have to spend more gold getting my hp back is just an annoying tax, and any solution that prevents me getting my hp back just reintroduces or exacerbates the 15 minute work day.

The best approach IMNSHO is to make hp largely proportional to the targets hp, but that might smell too much of D&D 4e for some, so I am not wedded to it.

On fixed item DCs: Add me to the chorus who would prefer to see the back of them. I like the idea of the distruption one being based on Lore(Undead), although you would probably want to allow Religion too, since AFAICT they both cover undead knowledge. Maybe adding the potency of the weapon too. Although no need to add level; proficiency DCs already include level automatically.

Similarly, Vorpal could be something like your relevant weapon proficiency DC plus the potency of the weapon. Or maybe Lore (Anatomy).

OTOH I am fine with the items have minimum DCs, so you use that or your own DC, whichever is higher (like staffs in PF1).

On disruption: Good to see that the legacy blunt-weapon only restriction is gone. It kinda made sense when Clerics were restricted to blunt weapons, but that hasn't been the case for nearly two decades (or longer if you count 2e specialtiy priests). And it is a bit weird if undead-hunting Clerics of Pharasma cannot get disruption on their favoured daggers.

On vorpal: I agree that needing a natural 20 that crits, and your reaction, and a point of resonace, and a save feels a bit too much. While the devs are rightly being extremely cautious with save or die this time around, this might be a slight overreaction. I'd fear that I would only roll that precious natural 20 on a AoO or when I was too low on resonance to risk a point. Vorpal kinda has to be expensive-and-rarely-triggered (which is difficult to balance), but there is "rarely" and then there is "non-trivial chance of it never working in the entirety of the remaining campaign". I am not sure which this is.

On reforging: I could have sworn this had been mentioned as a thing that exists, although I cannot remember where. If I am right about that, then presumably it would up the quality (I can't think of anything else it would do OTTOMH).

On terminology: The absolute best thing about what has been revealed so far is that the PF2 team are going for precise terminology and proper keywording with clearly defined meanings! Someone asked whether reading the 4e or 5e PHB ws more evocative: Definiely 4e. Clear rules mean I can rely on them without worry, which leaves much more room for thinking about cool fantasy advantures instead. I will admit that the 5e PHB has more evocative art in general, apart from the halflings (shudders).

That said, I think the specific terminology they have gone with is possibly a bit wordier than it needs to be. OTOH, I think I can see where they were coming from: Someone upthread asked what the difference between Somatic and Operate, so even with "Casting" and "Activation" in there people are mixing them up.

It does look a bit odd in the context of the "Activation: Focus Activation" et al, but you need to be able to refer to them outside of that context as well.

Also on terminology, I can see people's objection to "etched", but given that it is an inherently magical process I am fine with it. Someone mentioned "inscribed', but that would seem to have exactly the same issue.

Maybe when you remove a rune from an item, the physical marks on the metal remain, but (most of) the magic is gone. Perhaps re-adding the same rune would be slightly easier, whereas adding a different rune would be difficult or impossible without reforging the weapon. Oh wait, I guess I could think of another reason for reforging...

_
glass.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As no one asked, my thoughts on each type of item and how it should, from my uninformed viewpoint, interact with Resonance:
In general: No charges. No multiple/day abilities. 1/day abilities are ok as they're basically on or off.

Alchemical Elixirs:

Spoiler:
Consumables. Do not cost resonance unless made by an Alchemist on the fly. Not as powerful as potions of similar cost. Alchemist uses Cha for Resonance but gets a bonus based on level (1/4?) to keep them ahead as they utilise it for class abilities.

Potions:

Spoiler:
Consumables. Cost resonance to use but usable by anyone.

Scrolls:

Spoiler:
Consumable. Cost resonacne, only usable by people with spellcasting (Feats/Unlocks allow those with sufficent abilit to use regardless)

Armour:

Spoiler:
Standard armour does not need investiture. Only invest if thre are properties., not just potency. So chain +1 gives an AC bonus all the time with no Resonance, but the Invisible armour above would need to be invested AND would cost resonacne to function each time.

Weapons:

Spoiler:
As armour. The basic damage boost doesn't need investiture, but if it has special abilities, those would need to be invested to function.

Trinkets:

Spoiler:
As with scrolls, cost a resonance to use and can only be used by those with the appropriate feat.

Staff:

Spoiler:
No charges. Each staff has a suite of spells, an investiture benefit and a cantrip. Invest a resonance to get the investiture benefit. Cantrips can be cast unlimited times. Using a resonance heightens the spell to the highest spell level you can cast (if higher than the minimum) . If using a spell to power it, does NOT cost Resonance and heightens to the spell level. Either way you're burning resources to make the staff work, and it is more beneficial to spellcasters which fits thematically.

Wand:

Spoiler:
[Edna Mode]No charges.[/Edna Mode] Spell in a can. Costs a resonance or spell of same level or higher to use. If a spell, it heightens to the spell level but doesn't cost resonance. May want to limit it like Scrolls to only work for spellcasters at a base, with feats and unlocks to let others use it.

Flair (Name subject to massive improvement):

Spoiler:
Wands for martials. They work as a Trinket but do not get used up. Cost a Resonance per use.

Other permanent magic items:

Spoiler:
If an item is always on (Bag of Holding), it costs a Resonance to invest and use the item. If it is use activated, it requires 1 Resonance per use.

This limits everything by resonance, unifies the system, makes armour and weapons work the same way. Consumables not costing Resonance would need to be increased sharply in price to prevent them being the go to solution and negating the 'upgrades' (Wands and Flair) to being usable.

Grand Lodge

I love pretty much everything about this system, but I really, Really do not like consumables using Resonance. I'll wait until we playtest it to make final judgement, but it doesn't feel functional in-setting, it makes Resonance into a resource-tracking game that every character has to account for and frankly it seems like a very forced way of dealing with the whole overuse of healing items thing. You've done so well in making Pathfinder into a less management-intensive system; please don't backtrack on that now.

Resonance as a whole is a little iffy for me... the Occultist is one of my absolute favourite classes in PF1, but I don't want every class to be an Occultist. Still, I can see why it could work and it helps with the whole item-slots scenario so I feel pretty okay about it in general.

I do, however, love the weapon and armour stuff up there. Not such a fan of the whole "all weapon magic is runes" thing, but that is flavour that can easily be removed or modified. I like runic weapons, but that should be one flavour option of many.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I have been somewhat quiet on the boards about PF2, but have been generally pleased with what I have been seeing. Some of it has been a jolt and took a while to get used to, but overall it has been a generally positive impression. I liked the idea of resonance and loved the simplified action economy. But here we seem to be drifting away from my first positive impressions, and I need to express my concerns.

Resonance is now becoming a trifle limiting even on items that used to be automatic, like a vorpal weapon. Here is where you lost me: a rare circumstance comes up (only 5% of all rolls are nat 20s) and you have to spend resonance or you get nothing? What goes from being a dramatic and cool moment becomes sad and frustrating if the character is out of resonance or the target makes its Fort save. I get that it is cheaper to implement and thus make it appear more often. But if it works so rarely, why bother?

And why so many labels for action types? Why is this necessary? Unless it specifically states an action is a free action or a reaction, does it even matter? Won't this add a level of confusion to new players (which, given the extent of the changes, we all are to some extent) instead of clarifying?

Silver Crusade

How easy is it to remove a rune from my weapon? How long does it take?

Can I remove a rune from an enemy's weapon? Can I swap it out with a worse rune?

How do I safeguard against someone from messing with my runes if its easy to add/remove?


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Feros wrote:

Resonance is now becoming a trifle limiting even on items that used to be automatic, like a vorpal weapon. Here is where you lost me: a rare circumstance comes up (only 5% of all rolls are nat 20s) and you have to spend resonance or you get nothing? What goes from being a dramatic and cool moment becomes sad and frustrating if the character is out of resonance or the target makes its Fort save. I get that it is cheaper to implement and thus make it appear more often. But if it works so rarely, why bother?

I think running out of resonance happens if you use consumables and magic items like they are going out of fashion. But judicious use means you will not run out unless your GM wants you to.

I think the design principal behind a lot of PFe2 is presenting players with interesting choices in combat and out of combat. If you can always just spam a good spell, then you will just do that most of the time. But if you can cast a good spell only a few times, use a item only a few times, and use spell point spenders only a few times, then you have to start making interesting choices. Is this encounter easy, or am I going to have to break out some big abilities/consumables? Is using an item and 1 resonance to blast these guys going to be more effective than using at will abilities and then spending 1 resonance to heal up the additional damage from not blasting? A lot of people enjoy the tactical decision making.

However, a lot of people also seem to want to blast, blast, blast, potion, potion, potion all day long. This is not wrong, it is just at odds with the design of the system.

So, arcade blasting or tactical optimisation? Paizo has gone with the latter to underpin their game design. I cannot see a way to accommodate both styles of game. I am in the tactical camp, which is why I am loving a lot of these new features, but I can see the other style of player being very unhappy.


So...

Uses per day always varied per item, and were annoying to track. Plus, they added complications to the above. Something that balanced in longer day campaigns wasn't for shorter ones.

Removing Uses/Day and replacing them with Resonance Cost is a step in the right direction and helps balance to a degree. More, it's simpler, though I appreciate what y'all are trying to do, too! It's difficult to put ideas out there--so I consider something of a canvas, that may just need that adjustment to the blue, and...there!

If we're looking at itemspam and other uses--well, I've had problems even getting people to purchase consumables. There's also the short vs long day balance issue. Maybe a GM only wants to run a romp. Maybe they want to run something extended. Maybe story's just...going to suggest one or the other. Maybe PCs do wonky things!

Everyone runs their campaigns differently, and that? That runs headlong into item and usage mechanics. Longer adventuring day, shorter one. Story and GM fatigue set the requirements, you know?

Could that be considered as a higher priority in design? I agree itemspam can be annoying; I just see the long/short as...well, it ties to story, mechanics, and the OOC of how a GM can manage and balance a campaign, as well as their personal energy levels from day to day. I suppose that makes it super-important, to me!

Also...I love that Fortification is in! I'm...really sad it seems to have been hit with some whiffle bats along the way, and gained restrictions and lost much of its effectiveness. Or, maybe I'm not seeing the benefits?


What is a flat check? Oh I guess you just roll without adding anything? so it is practically percentile then eh? so 17 would be 15% and 14 would be 30 % yeah thats nerfed hmm.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:

-I think I see the welds in the structure of resonance and can deduce its purpose. Resonance has several different goals.

1) Resonance was designed to combine all X-uses-per-turn magic items into tapping into one common pool. Hence, it is a resource point system.
2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.
3) Wands' charges fit under the resonance system, which gave another possible benefit of resonance: it could prevent spamming wands of Cure Light Wounds. But preventing the spamming of wands would just push the spamming down to potions or scrolls. Therefore, potions and scrolls also cost resonance.

1) It's failed and the playtest hasn't even been published yet. We still have 1/day items which are just as bad as 10/day IMO. And we have at least one 3/day item.

2) It's failed to create a less complicated system. It's pretty intuitive to say "you can only wear one pair of boots" or "one pair of gloves" or "one pair of glasses". The biggest problem cases were rings were arbitrarily restricted (probably because of how powerful they can be), circlet and headband were confusing and chest vs torso. Except for these edge cases the system as a whole was pretty inutitive. Investing in resonance, spending resonance and the items which need investment vs don't need investment are every bit as arbitrary as the body slot system. So the new system isn't simpler.
3) Wands are another example of how point #1 has failed. Not only do I have to spend resonance, but I also have to spend charges!? WTF? Wands are crap (and let's be honest, with the exception of a partly charged wand how often were they used beyond level 3 except for healing purposes?).

I think any of these statements are premature given you haven't actually ever touched the system. Armchair theorizing is all well and good, but at some point you have to recognize you're working off woefully incomplete information.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
What is a flat check? Oh I guess you just roll without adding anything? so it is practically percentile then eh? so 17 would be 15% and 14 would be 30 % yeah thats nerfed hmm.

17-20 is 20%, while 14-20 is 35%. I suspect you're forgetting "meet or beat".


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The pricing on the low-level healing potions somewhat mollifies me on the whole resonance thing, in terms of my concerns about herding people into healing classes and the 15 minute adventuring day. I'm still not sure if resonance will work at the lowest levels for a party with no healer, but that will be seen when the playtest comes out and we'll find out what mundane healing can do.

The higher level ones are vastly overprized and, yes, I've read Marks comment about that. They still are way too expensive, even for the added benefit of another 2d8+8 or 4d8+18 healing per shot. Make them more in line with the first four of the list and that would allay almost all of those concerns about resonance I have (so far).


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Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

I like all of these fixes, especially the wands, charges, and potion fixes. I would also remove all mention of X/day items and instead make activating them cost extra resonance.


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Since you still have to use resonance for potions, I would have the healing potion effects maximized.


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If wands are 1 resonance = 1 spell, then sorcerers (and bards) are effectively getting a ton more spells per day, and every magic item usage will have to be balanced around "is this better than an extra free spell?"


Cyouni wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
What is a flat check? Oh I guess you just roll without adding anything? so it is practically percentile then eh? so 17 would be 15% and 14 would be 30 % yeah thats nerfed hmm.
17-20 is 20%, while 14-20 is 35%. I suspect you're forgetting "meet or beat".

Also crit chances can be way higher now. Evil McDreadboss probably has a pretty darn high to-hit chance. Sure the minions have a pretty low to hit but their stabbings matter less anyway.


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graystone wrote:
Ludovicus wrote:
One thing 4e vs. 5e taught us is that writing style and visual presentation matters. Open one edition's Player's Handbook, then the other's. Which makes you smile, and imagine going on an adventure?
4e. I wouldn't pick up 5e to smash a bug with. :P

Ha, my 4th Ed books are the only ones I have ever conserved getting rid of out of my collection, they are just not worth the space they take up, and my biggest DM mistake was switching my 3rd Ed campaign to 4th Ed...I still awake in frosty sweat from the nightmares...

As for the blog, I will pitch in with the others that Operate Activation Action is just horrid, and now I see we have "Interact basic action", this is just starting to read like a VCR manual.

It also looks like Resonance are Healing Surges (one of first things I house-ruled out of 4th Ed) in disguise, especially in light of this new information about CLW wands.

It would all be so much warmer, user-freindly, aesthetically pleasing, if it was simply the number of actions you need to pull off whatever it is.

Activate: 2 Actions.
Strike: 1 Action.
Grapple: 2 Actions.


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Also, rambly ramble possibly with or without a point:

1) I kind of like that hirelings can be resonance batteries, esp the charismatic ones. You can sort of pop by bars and pick up tortured souls and melodramatic poets and burn their creativity on powering items you stole from the aforementioned Evil McDreadboss. Also baddies can pull the same trick, abducting people with powerful personalities and weak bodies to press-gang into service.

2) New Vorpal kind of thematically plays out like rocket thrusters strapped to the sword that you can engage when you've got a good shot. Could be fun to steal bits of the loathsome limbs optional troll rules from 5e and stick them on a dread weapon that is sort of like vorpal. E.g. if it's a crit and a 20 can try to lop off a head, bit lower but still a crit maybe an arm, and bit lower but still a crit maybe a leg. Each time being able to choose to go one lower.

3) It sort of feels like the rules for investing are "do you need to be wearing it" and for other payments are "are you activating it". I.e. if it does its own thing without people messing with it then it probably doesn't need investment or activation. We already know that the frost sword thing is gonna be always chilly, which fits well with the idea that weapons don't need investing. Presumably other things like fire swords are always pretty hot or whatever. Meanwhile potions only have their effects in people, staffs and wands siphon power from people, and enhanced armour ups saving throws which suggests it's outright synergising with people. If this sort of logic is actually being followed then bag of holding works fine without investment (though I actually like the idea of a Bag of Secrets which does require investment).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I quite like resonance as a whole especially with it applying to consumables like scrolls and wands. However I have to add my voice to the choir when it comes to having resonance and restrictions in uses per day. I'll see how it works in the playtest but having to track multiple resources here sounds like unnecessary complexity.


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Something that I am curious about with this version of resonance, is whether it is overly incentivizing "never get hit" as the 1 true strategy for character development. Certainly in "real life" this is a sound strategy, but that is because we don't have magical healing or the ability to come back from the dead.

Yes, in PF1, not getting hit is better than being able to soak up damage, but widely accessible healing greatly lessened how much better it was, and if the trade off was hitting harder or more AC, hitting harder was at least worth considering.

If healing becomes much more limited, and the amount healing spells heal is limited by the spell (3d8+5) vs how much healing the character needs (a percentage based healing), then I see a strong push to incentivize AC (and saves)>total Resonance>HP.

This seems like a smack in the face to some of the powers we have seen, like the druid power that triggers off of getting critically hit by your enemy, and probably a lot of Barbarian builds as well.


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Malthraz wrote:

I think the design principal behind a lot of PFe2 is presenting players with interesting choices in combat and out of combat. If you can always just spam a good spell, then you will just do that most of the time. But if you can cast a good spell only a few times, use a item only a few times, and use spell point spenders only a few times, then you have to start making interesting choices. Is this encounter easy, or am I going to have to break out some big abilities/consumables? Is using an item and 1 resonance to blast these guys going to be more effective than using at will abilities and then spending 1 resonance to heal up the additional damage from not blasting? A lot of people enjoy the tactical decision making.

However, a lot of people also seem to want to blast, blast, blast, potion, potion, potion all day long. This is not wrong, it is just at odds with the design of the system.

So, arcade blasting or tactical optimisation? Paizo has gone with the latter to underpin their game design. I cannot see a way to accommodate both styles of game. I am in the tactical camp, which is why I am loving a lot of these new features, but I can see the other style of player being very unhappy.

I like your analysis. My suggestion for accommodating both styles: write the rules for tactics (the more involved case), then add an explicit but optional Recovery rule that you can rest for 5-10 min to regain all your HP, as often as you like. GMs who include the Recovery rule just transformed their games into arcade blasting, plus nobody needs to worry about carrying healing potions (unless they plan to use a few in combat).

I realize any home GM can include such a rule anyway, but I think having it explicitly would make a lot of people more comfortable. And it encourages the GM to sit and think a bit at the start about which style of game they want.

The Exchange

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Grovestrider wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

I like all of these fixes, especially the wands, charges, and potion fixes. I would also remove all mention of X/day items and instead make activating them cost extra resonance.

^^ This is my favorite fix idea.

The fact that you have to use RP to cast from wands gives you an inherent limit to the number of times you can use them per day so why double track? You'll never be able to cast as many times as your Resonance pool since you're using it for so many different things. If they really want to fix CLW spamming then why not do this and implement the limits that the DCs of wands are still static and wands can only be invested in once every 24 hours. If you want to take it a step further, include a limit that wands can only be invested a number of times in its lifetime before it can no longer channel magic. That way players really have to consider if they want to just pass their wand to another player to spam healing.

Edit: And to get around the whole Invest/Spend double cost just say you invest in a wand when you cast a spell from it the first time and every subsequent use costs a single RP.

Silver Crusade

I hope they have a Resonance potion that restores 1 RP.

Sovereign Court

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Enlight_Bystand wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

I really liked the weapons descriptions until we hit vorpal; I HOPE that the focus activation is intended to occur after the trigger, and isn't something you have to do to prime the trigger; both are bad but this is probably a necessary balance change if vorpal is to 'only' cost 15 k gp. Since we now know the better weapon abilities will be gated with extra action requirements, I assume that two weapon fighter fans should again play another system? Or can multiple weapons be activated simultaneously? Will that have a feat tax? Is vorpal pretty much the only ability which is so gated, and therefore this line of questioning is pointless?

The focus activation is a reaction. Those generally happen after whatever triggers them.
This is not always true. One of the focus actions in an example item from Monday is a reaction, but I believe there were also action and even free examples given.

I was replying specifically about the vorpal weapon. You can see the [[R]] next to Focus Activation quite clearly.


I doubt they will, a "mana" potion would be counter-productive to their intended game-play style... and a nightmare to write besides.
The first reason is that the GP value of 1 RP changes based on your level and the campaign genre (low/high fantasy), making an RP potion with a fixed value impossible to balance, but one with a variable effectiveness impossible to accept in terms of immersion. For example a level 20 fighter having to consume 20 RP elixirs (or more likely given d20-maths, 400 elixirs) to regain 1 RP instead of just 1 to compensate for the relative value of their RPs.

An easier solution might be to allow apportioned RP recovery:
For example, being able to recover 1/8th of your "spent" RP (minimum 1) per hour spent resting (I say spent to differentiate it from RP you've invested in a permanent item.
Or perhaps allow characters to take a 10-minute "Short Rest" once per level (or half your level; minimum 1) per day to recover 1 RP.

I can also see value in class features that allow you to transfer RP (for "Dark Sun" style wizardry), or allow you to activate certain items (like healing potions) for free in given circumstances (like while you're dying), but those are important details we won't have access to until we get our playtest documents at the earliest.


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Like many people said before me, I don't see how Resonnance makes magic items' rules easier... I feel like this is bad in terms of Roleplay ("ow noez, my flaming sword is not working today, must not have enough batteries"), in terms of System ("ok, so I have to keep track of my RPs, how many times I used each items...), and particularly bad for consumables.

I would not see the problem with casting spell-like abilities (armor of invisibility's invisibility, casting from a wand...), because you would have only one pool of points to track for all those cool additional effects, and this would allow a fighter to cast a Fireball from a staff if needed, as long as they have RPs, reducing the spamming. But then I wouldn't limit how many times you can use it. It may lead you to pretty strange scenes when you can use 4 times your Cyclope Helmet to roll four 20s, but it will be at the expense of other cool effects like healing or flying.

I can *tolerate* having to pour your RPs in magical items to activate them for the day (like your flaming sword), even though that seems silly because your sword may work one day but not the other (I don't see Excallibur, or Raven's Head for something more Golarion-related, suddenly stop working one day because Arthur or your generic Pharasma's Cleric didn't meditate on its power for the day. They are frickin' magical weapons, not a handheld console). But if you get RPs equal to level + CHA, it will only matter for low level characters, so this rule needs the previous one to really have an impact on high level (plus this will mean, story-wise, that magic items react more easily to charismatic people like groupies, which seems even more silly).

But on consumables ? You can't throw up potions (unless you are an alchemist with a very special discovery) or repair bombs. But if you have to spend an RP every time you use a potion or a potion's effect, then you will never use them. I can see healing potions being used, but only when your comrade is at Dying 2 to prevent from dying - I will practicaly never drink a potion before this point, because you will always have to spare your RPs to be able to drink that last-resort-potion. As for potions like Dragon Breath... Even at 45 gp, I won't use it if I can't spend at least 3~4 RPs, because otherwise I will feel like I would have been better attacking or casting a spell. To recap : consumables will be even less used than before.


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Mathmuse wrote:
edduardco wrote:

Sad that Wand weren't shown

Also, why weapons get a free pass on investment?

2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.

Staves didn't use a magic item slot, and yet they require investment to use and a resonance point per activation just like all other items previewed. So yes weapons are getting a free pass and I find very hard not to notice a certain bias in there.


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BryonD wrote:
Voss wrote:
You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers....

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?

actually, no we can't, to both. It works perfectly fine for me and any groups I've played with.


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Cyouni wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Third, it's a shame the Devs fled so quickly. I hope they take note at what folk are saying here but it's not been nearly as hostile as some threads and yet the Devs went bye bye most quickly.
Well, I'm not surprised given every time Mark said something, people were twisting his words to suit what they wanted it to say within two posts. It was at the level where it's not worth it for devs to comment on the subject.

Keep in mind that this blog came out on Friday afternoon and Paizo devs deserve to get days off just like everyone else. They have a fun job, but its still a job.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Almarane wrote:

Like many people said before me, I don't see how Resonnance makes magic items' rules easier... I feel like this is bad in terms of Roleplay ("ow noez, my flaming sword is not working today, must not have enough batteries")

Anything sounds ridiculous and bad for role playing if you deliberately phrase it in a ridiculous way.

Liberty's Edge

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Corrik wrote:

P1: Then I'll drink my Dragon's Breath Potion and show him what real morning's breath smells like!

P2: Don't be stupid, you only have 2 RP left. Complete waste of the potion and you'll be SOL if you get knocked out.

P1: Oh yeah, never mind I'll just full attack then.

Corrik, I completely agree. As this reads now, I will never invest in anything that is multiple uses a day and requires RP to activate each time. If anything, it seems this system has the potential to further enforce the "every character buys magic items X, Y, and Z and nothing else for flavor", since they are a waste of your limit resources.

I'm really hoping that upon reading the complete rules, I'm totally wrong about this and it works great. As it reads now, it seems like using a sword to remove a splinter, since it seems to be almost completely implemented to counteract the "healing stick" CLW wands at high levels.


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On RP potions, it might be counterproductive to actually regain RP, but one that reset your previous attempts count to zero? (Can you tell I'm not convinced by dev claims you can't run out of RP easily.)


Eoni wrote:
Grovestrider wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

I like all of these fixes, especially the wands, charges, and potion fixes. I would also remove all mention of X/day items and instead make activating them cost extra resonance.

^^ This is my favorite fix idea.

I like these adjustments, too! :D


edduardco wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
edduardco wrote:

Sad that Wand weren't shown

Also, why weapons get a free pass on investment?

2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.
Staves didn't use a magic item slot, and yet they require investment to use and a resonance point per activation just like all other items previewed. So yes weapons are getting a free pass and I find very hard not to notice a certain bias in there.

Weapons getting a 'free pass' is pretty important. I've had far too many infuriating experiences with 'this is my one and only weapon' players who just complain bitterly and/or refuse to contribute at all when resistances or the necessity for ranged combat come up.

Resonance requirements for weapons would reinforce that behavior significantly, and encourage that thinking among people who wouldn't otherwise behave that way.

Staves requiring some personal investment (though not resonance per activation AND charges) makes sense to me, especially since they're putting spells on spell lists.


edduardco wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
edduardco wrote:

Sad that Wand weren't shown

Also, why weapons get a free pass on investment?

2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.
Staves didn't use a magic item slot, and yet they require investment to use and a resonance point per activation just like all other items previewed. So yes weapons are getting a free pass and I find very hard not to notice a certain bias in there.

Staves also provide a constant benefit that you don't need to be holding them for (just invested for). That's why they require investment.


Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.


  • The wands change makes sense, and would be a good idea. I think the reason paizo didn't go with this is the issue of pricing such an item that lasts forever, and it's implications in the universe (if wands are good forever why doesn't everyone have one, after all there should be a surplus and they should have low prices).

  • Staves, I'd still have cost an RP to spontaneously cast, this prevents players from buying staves that have spells that they know they'll commonly use and use their prepared slot/spells known for other spells, when it should be the other way around (using staff spells for uncommon situations).

  • I disagree, like I pointed out in the first one, wands should have charges for the implication that bring.

    I also think staves should have charges but using charges to cast one of it's spells shouldn't cost RP, since that'd be consuming 2 resource pools which is overly punishing.

  • Pass, I like the flat DC increase and the +level (which ties in with the fact that everything is getting a +level bonus, it'd be weird to have a +1/2 all of a sudden)

  • Investing should cost rp per item, which should be a separate system from RP, but I can see testing how it works with RP.

  • No. RP to create means nothing will be expended (since you can only create them in downtime mode which is a day typically, meaning no combat on the day you create, also punishes making potions in batches).

    Instead as a poster later gave the idea of, potions should be maximized to set themselves apart from their wand counterparts.


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glass wrote:
On vorpal: I agree that needing a natural 20 that crits, and your reaction, and a point of resonace, and a save feels a bit too much.

It does merit mentioning that a "natural 20 which crits" just means "a natural 20 where 20 plus your attack bonus is sufficient to hit" since natural 20s/1s automatically up/downgrade you one level of success.

So all this accomplishes is it prevents your level 1 doofus from picking up a Vorpal Sword, rolling a 20, then decapitating the AC 40 bad guy who happens to roll badly on the fort save. In essence, you have to be good enough to actually hit them in order to snicker-snack.

Grand Lodge

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Whew, it is looking like the Resonance mechanic is a project manager's nightmare. It seems to be an unpopular wish list item that doesn't really solve that big of a problem in the end.

I think i would have only tried to solve any resonance issues after all the high priority items had been polished up.
(I would have added a few more options for domain powers myself or possibly try to solve the 10 min adventuring day).

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