Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Liberty's Edge

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Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:

So, is the weapon Potency different from the Weapon Tier? Does a Legendary +5 Longsword grant +8?

They're different but don't stack. So you could have a +1 Legendary sword, which'd have +3 to hit, or a +5 Legendary sword which'd have +5 to hit.
And I assume the same applies to damage? The +5 Legendary Longsword only has 6d8 damage?

Quality never adds to damage in the first place, so yes.


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Wasn't the whole point of Resonance to reduce the number of fiddly uses-per-day charges to begin with? Now I need to keep track of not only how many items I'm wearing, how many runes are on my armor/weapon (and what material it is...), how many potions I've drunk, how many times I've used my Invisibility rune, how many charges are left in my staff, and estimate how much I'll need healing for the rest of the day?

...Yeah, no. If we do keep resonance in the final version, it's going to have to bear little to no resemblance to how it is now or I imagine that'll be the first houserule that is in place in more tables than it isn't. All the speculative upsides of Resonance from when it was first brought up are gone if we still need to keep track of uses and slots.


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MusicAddict wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

A little late to the party, but I'll bite. Crunchy blogpost is crunchy, which is good. However, like the last blog post, it has some major flaws (some of which are repeated).

Let's delve into the first part...

** spoiler omitted **...

On the Disrupting Property, it actually DOESN'T cost Resonance. It doesn't have an activation line.

So if an item has an activation requirement, then resonance is needed?

I'm not sure that really makes much sense for every item. Cloak of Elvenkind lets you get a Stealth Bonus for an activation requirement, does that require Resonance too? Because I was almost certain it doesn't.

It just doesn't seem like much of a rule that's consistent. Items should clearly state when they do and do not cost Resonance, and for what activations are Resonance needed. Less clarity means that this is just going to be an even more confusing system than it was compared to PF1. If I have to rely on blog posts to tell me what does and doesn't cost Resonance, when the item should very clearly tell me what does and doesn't cost Resonance, then they might as well publish the PF2 Playtest Rules as one giant Blog with footnotes and excerpts for every fiddly detail. (I might actually be able to read it a little better for how badly formatted half these entries are.)


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Elorebaen wrote:
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
If I had to guess, the reason they're using more verbose terminology is to prevent threads and threads of arguments about how imprecise their language is. It might be a bit harder to get used to, but it should also help make things clearer in the long run, and keep people on the same page.

That is PRECISELY what I am thinking every time I see someone complaining about the use of the keywords and the verbose labeling.

I bet if I were to do a search of forums on some of folks complaining I would find them complaining about imprecise verbiage in PF1. Heaven forbit, Paizo try and tighten up the rules language, and make it much more extensible for a product that has a long life cycle and will be adding many elements as time goes by.

The upside, is that there is a playtest, and, thankfully, there have been posters that have been willing to contribute in a positive way. I hope they continue to do so.

Tightening rules language is fine, and a lot of imprecise language complaints is usually because of different writers having different definitions of game terms (or not having game terms at all and using game terms to define something completely different). When it's all of the primary PF1 Devs creating the language, and they review the items with each other (presumably), the language will be more consistent and be more obvious to identify what is and is not a game term, compared to numerous PF1 options that were written by temporary (or limited) Paizo employees, or even freelance writers, who may or may not have a clue as to what the primary Paizo developers have in terms of lingo.

Adding redundant words and killing page word count in what an objective viewpoint might see as an insult to others' reading comprehension, is not, and they do both subjects simultaneously in many sections of the book, it's hard to tell whether or not they want tight rules or just less rules with more word count bloat. (The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.)

They could have just cut things down to "2 Actions," or "1 Action," or "Reaction," especially since we have no idea what Focus Activation Actions are (no blog post explaining this, and yet it's introduced to us? WTF Paizo!), but instead decided to go with symbols (which aren't properly represented on the forums, I might add, which doesn't help with the presentation), and then in magic item rules, they invent things like Operate Activation Action, and Interact Action Activation, when "Actions: Operate, Interact" get approximately the same meaning across, with a more clean format, and actually being worth the page count as it is quite clear what actions are required for a given ability. (I still prefer "Activation: 2 Actions," since it's not clear what each type of item action is, and why there is a distinction between them, but I took a more conservative approach.) Bonus points if it requires resonance, and there is a (Pay 1 RP) clause in there as well.


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Ludovicus wrote:
Dude, if you guys are introducing this whole big immersion-compromising system to cordon off a degenerate edge case, it might be a good idea to rethink things.

Honestly, it’s not an edge case - it’s something my group and every group I talk to does, because it doesn’t make sense not to. Hit hard in combat, don’t bother with healing in-fight, then spam the heck out of 750gold CLW wands when you survive. even my 13th and 14th level characters carry three or four CLW wands. In fact, only our Hell’s Rebels group didn’t do that, because I played a life oracle and was pretty much a fountain of Positive Energy.


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edduardco wrote:

Sad that Wand weren't shown

Also, why weapons get a free pass on investment?

jasin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Except for a particular time when my playtesters explicitly tried to see if they could get away with saving money on CLW wand spam despite being high level adventurers who could afford a better wand, and a few extreme stress test situations where I told them "This is the only fight today. Nova your heart out," my playtest group never really hit hard against the resonance caps, even the ones with lower Charisma.
Is that the primary purpose of Resonance then? To make sure high level adventurers heal up with a reasonable amount of high level wand uses, rather than trickle-to-full with a more hp-per-gp efficient wand?
Dαedαlus wrote:

Wasn't the whole point of Resonance to reduce the number of fiddly uses-per-day charges to begin with? Now I need to keep track of not only how many items I'm wearing, how many runes are on my armor/weapon (and what material it is...), how many potions I've drunk, how many times I've used my Invisibility rune, how many charges are left in my staff, and estimate how much I'll need healing for the rest of the day?

...Yeah, no. If we do keep resonance in the final version, it's going to have to bear little to no resemblance to how it is now or I imagine that'll be the first houserule that is in place in more tables than it isn't. All the speculative upsides of Resonance from when it was first brought up are gone if we still need to keep track of uses and slots.

I have been following the Resonance discussions in the Trinkets & Treasure thread and I think I see the welds in the structure of resonance and can deduce its purpose. Resonance has several different goals.

1) Resonance was designed to combine all X-uses-per-turn magic items into tapping into one common pool. Hence, it is a resource point system.
2) Resonance is to replace the complicated magic-item-slot system with a simpler total magic items worn system. Hence, donning any magic armor or worn magic item costs one resonance, and only one resonance. To answer edduardco's question why weapons get a free pass, they didn't have a magic-item-slot, so they don't use resonance.
3) Wands' charges fit under the resonance system, which gave another possible benefit of resonance: it could prevent spamming wands of Cure Light Wounds. But preventing the spamming of wands would just push the spamming down to potions or scrolls. Therefore, potions and scrolls also cost resonance.

Resonance has three or more different goals. These goals are worthy. Alas, multiple goals keep it from being finely tuned toward any one goal.

For example, the Dragon's Breath Potion is messed up due to the contradictory goals and desire the goals. Once the potion is drunk and takes effect, it is no longer a magic item. It acts more like a spell, such as the PF1 Fire Breath spell. But Paizo designers decided that with resonance, its duration could be an entire hour, because resonance would be its limit instead. And they added the same restrictions that I guess a dragon uses: two actions and 1d4 rounds to recharge. Thus, the PC can drink a potion that gives him or her an ability that shuts down several other magic-item abilities. That potion will more likely be found in the hand of an expendible kobold foe that lacks other magic items.

Furthermore, resonance was created purely for mechanical purposes. We imagined our own explanations for the little mechanics that it will replace: uses per day represent how quickly a magic item can recharge, magic items slots must be because to magic items in the same niche interfere with each other, and wands of Cure Light Wounds have a bad flavor for dramatic tension but we don't need an in-world excuse for lack of drama. Those little reasons do not merge into anything resembling a notion out of fantasy or folklore.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Suggestion: add a stabalize effect to all potions at no RP cost.It might make people happy.

Suggestion: on listing success failure. Use these terms and order.
Critical
Success
Fail
Fumble

Suggestion: the earlier suggestion of counting up resonance as magic fills you seems cool.

Praise: I love how action names can be descriptive like deep breath, verbal, somatic.... (Take a deep breath then jump in a lake. The reverse leads to drowning).


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Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.


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Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.

So 1 potion fails and no potions, scrolls or anything else can be used on you for the rest of the day

Yeah Resonence goes in the trash can for my game, that is just stupid


MerlinCross wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.

Only if you roll a natural 1.


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Cyouni wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.

Only if you roll a natural 1.

that's certain better than 50/50 "no magic for you"

but it brings us back to the First Aid kit of 10 Wands of CLW


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Cyouni wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.

Only if you roll a natural 1.

I recall them saying the check gets worse each time though. Is that for all Magic or just that item.

Basically asking if the idea of just Shifting over to another wand each time a failure pops up is actually a viable answer. Cause if so, all this bluster from everyone amounts to actually very little.

But the Devs probably thought that out. So it probably is a Flat 50% that gets harder each time you.... use magic item? Use it and fail?


MerlinCross wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Honestly once you run out of Resonence and you are down to that Flat check to see if the item is going to work, you might as well just go with the pile of cheap wands. Less money wasted when it fails.

Infact a box of 10 Wands of Cure Light is probably a good idea for when the Resonence is gone. Just cycle though them once you are down to the flat check.

I do believe the flat check isn't "This item doesn't work on you" But is instead "Your body can't handle anymore magic. You can't use anything else".

Can someone confirm, I might be working with old info. The fact you can be shut out of magic items for the day doesn't sound fun to me. Exciting to build around for some, not me.

Only if you roll a natural 1.

I recall them saying the check gets worse each time though. Is that for all Magic or just that item.

Basically asking if the idea of just Shifting over to another wand each time a failure pops up is actually a viable answer. Cause if so, all this bluster from everyone amounts to actually very little.

But the Devs probably thought that out. So it probably is a Flat 50% that gets harder each time you.... use magic item? Use it and fail?

I think it's any time you use an item, because you're still spending the RP on a failure.


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ENHenry wrote:
Ludovicus wrote:
Dude, if you guys are introducing this whole big immersion-compromising system to cordon off a degenerate edge case, it might be a good idea to rethink things.
Honestly, it’s not an edge case - it’s something my group and every group I talk to does, because it doesn’t make sense not to. Hit hard in combat, don’t bother with healing in-fight, then spam the heck out of 750gold CLW wands when you survive. even my 13th and 14th level characters carry three or four CLW wands. In fact, only our Hell’s Rebels group didn’t do that, because I played a life oracle and was pretty much a fountain of Positive Energy.

I can accept that it isn't an edge case. But the point about the cure being worse than the disease has not been addressed.

I'll strongly state that it DOESN'T happen in my groups because nobody wants to tell that kind of story. To me, gaming the system as you have described is like cheating at single player online tic tac toe. What is the point?
You sit at the table to play a game of heroics then you avoid heroics by milking a clearly unintended and undesired exploit. If it is so bad that you need a whole new system that compromises narrative just to force you not to spam CLW, then why don't you just all agree to *not spam CLW*.
It is really a lot of fun, I promise.

I'm still 100% on board with "it is time to build a cool and very new PF". I'm not trying to just cling to the past. But *this* point being made really has a lot of downside for a problem that, while it mostly clearly exists, can be solved in much less intrusive ways.

Shadow Lodge

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Why would you not go forward at full hp if you have a way to do so? Fighting on at 50% health when you don’t have to is stupid, not heroic.


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So PF2E by denying CLW spam will force all parties to be stupid?

The argument implodes on itself.
If it is so obviously the correct thing to do then how is it also so obviously a critical problem in need of solving.

Them: We cast CLW constantly. It sucks. Please make it go away.
Me: Don't spam CLW
Them: What are you an idiot?

Shrug


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BryonD wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
Ludovicus wrote:
Dude, if you guys are introducing this whole big immersion-compromising system to cordon off a degenerate edge case, it might be a good idea to rethink things.
Honestly, it’s not an edge case - it’s something my group and every group I talk to does, because it doesn’t make sense not to. Hit hard in combat, don’t bother with healing in-fight, then spam the heck out of 750gold CLW wands when you survive. even my 13th and 14th level characters carry three or four CLW wands. In fact, only our Hell’s Rebels group didn’t do that, because I played a life oracle and was pretty much a fountain of Positive Energy.

I can accept that it isn't an edge case. But the point about the cure being worse than the disease has not been addressed.

I'll strongly state that it DOESN'T happen in my groups because nobody wants to tell that kind of story. To me, gaming the system as you have described is like cheating at single player online tic tac toe. What is the point?
You sit at the table to play a game of heroics then you avoid heroics by milking a clearly unintended and undesired exploit. If it is so bad that you need a whole new system that compromises narrative just to force you not to spam CLW, then why don't you just all agree to *not spam CLW*.

You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers.

Combined with wealth by level and the availability of items for sale (or crafting), the more logical conclusion was that it was a known and accepted behavior. It lasted too long and was consciously carried over from one edition to the next.

One of the major things it did as intended was unshackle the cleric from burning spell slots solely for healbot purposes- they can grow up and be fully fledged characters of their own, rather than be glorified minions for the rest of the party.

If the argument is really 'players just shouldn't behave this way,' well, frankly, take cheap healing and buff wands out. D&D got buy without them for quite a few editions, and in PF2, supposedly first aid skills and spell points and whatever can handle healing instead, with some emergency backup from potions. If that's the case and the desire, doing something is better than distorting and warping the new mechanic around this one item type

For example: Turn wands into bonus gear that can be invested to be used for spellcasting that uses the characters slots or spellpoints or whatever. Effectively a resonance point for a bonus 'spell known' instead.

---
And yeah, not using them under the old system is just... aberrant behavior. A couple years back, I bruised my ribs, I could have NOT bought a bottle of Aleve or Aspirin or whatever and just going about my day wheezing in pain but... without any allergies or bad reactions to such things, it made absolutely no sense not to do it.

Not using them in 3.0, 3.5 or PF makes some sense if you radically alter the core conceits of the system, but by default they're there to be bought, made and used.


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Voss wrote:
You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers....

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?


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BryonD wrote:
Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

No...

BryonD wrote:

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?

No...

Some people may think so, but it's a huge mistake to think that's a universally accepted notion. I myself have never seen it as such.


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TOZ wrote:
Why would you not go forward at full hp if you have a way to do so? Fighting on at 50% health when you don’t have to is stupid, not heroic.

Any reason I could give it doesn't matter . The math is there, the math says to use this, we should all use it right?

Why is CLW the only thing set in stone we must follow or we're playing the game wrong?

As for reasons;
- I think CLW spam is stupid.
- I realize this is still a game, breaking it isn't fun.
- I don't feel like I need that extra 10 HP at this moment.
- I'm a Cleric/Shaman/Focused Healer, I would like to be useful.
- My character hates magic.
- We have enough healing to get through the day anyway.
- I'm a potion maker, Alchemist or otherwise, I built my character for those, not wands.
- I spent my gold on something else.
- And any other number of reason to simply not use it.


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I find it odd the Vorpal effect requires so much to activate The crit ofcouse both nat 20 and confirmed then the saving throw and then you still have to spend the resonance. I guess this is because they are trying to get rid of the whole rocket tag thing. Which vorpal weapons are essentially the definition of that. (you know short of a rocket launcher.) I personally don't think it should cost the resonance.


I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.

I was playing 3E when it came out. I do recall Wands of CLW starting to turn up pretty quickly as an issue. And I recall it being panned by a lot of people as simply "bad form".
Again, I've been playing since 1999 and I do not have this problem because the players collectively choose to not saddle themselves with this undesired issue. They choose to not steal fun away from themselves.

I don't think the design team at the 3.0 level really realized the extent of this "exploit". But I'll also go to a common reply I give to all sorts of things regarding this system. It does not have training wheels. They are lots of way to crash and burn the system. It won't protect you from itself. If a group of people sit down and agree to not intentionally exploit the system it can be used to tell awesome stories. But it absolutely can be broken. And, on the other hand, I've yet to see a system that could not be broken and yet also maintained the adaptability to tell the best of the best in open ended stories. The mechanical constraints which save the players from themselves always do more harm then the problem they are intended to solve. At least that is true from the point of view of a player who seeks to avoid intentional exploits.

Paizo has flat out said that they knew from the start that they had warts in the system they had salvaged. 3.5 came out as a tweak early on in the life of 3.0 when the system was popular beyond belief. A change at the wand of CLWs level would not have been up for consideration while that goose was laying golden egg after golden egg. so I don't think slamming the designers makes sense in either instance.

But, regardless, this whole thread (at least the wand of CLW subthread) has been in agreement that it is a problem. The whole "you shouldn't say players shouldn't play this way" flies in the face of the complaint itself. Because it CAN be played without doing that. And the problem goes away.

Could a new system be built that takes away the need to restrain oneself? Certainly.

But the other side of the complaint here continues to be ignored. The system being offered has very obvious downsides. You are critical of 3.5 and Paizo for the fact that CLW spam rolled through rebuilds. Will you be equally critically when much more obvious downsides are a wart on the system in the future?

Solve the problem without such a clunky, gamist, anti-narrative sledgehammer.


graystone wrote:
BryonD wrote:
Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

No...

BryonD wrote:

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?

No...

Some people may think so, but it's a huge mistake to think that's a universally accepted notion. I myself have never seen it as such.

OK, those are not fair answers. :)

Obviously I find them to be readily avoided myself.

But the call for a solution here is founded on the need for a solution amongst those calling for it.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I find it odd the Vorpal effect requires so much to activate The crit ofcouse both nat 20 and confirmed then the saving throw and then you still have to spend the resonance.

No more confirming of crits, you just flat out have a 5% chance to choose to spend one RP to force the thing you hit to save against DC35 or be down a head.


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BryonD wrote:
I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.

Some devs and players/dm's don't like it others do. It's NOT a true/false question. It's not a universal truth. SO there will NEVER be an agreement on this IMO. I know I can't see a situation where I'm going to change my mind on it. CLW isn't bad and it's not an exploit as far as I'm concerned.


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MerlinCross wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Why would you not go forward at full hp if you have a way to do so? Fighting on at 50% health when you don’t have to is stupid, not heroic.

Any reason I could give it doesn't matter . The math is there, the math says to use this, we should all use it right?

Why is CLW the only thing set in stone we must follow or we're playing the game wrong?

As for reasons;
- I think CLW spam is stupid.
- I realize this is still a game, breaking it isn't fun.
- I don't feel like I need that extra 10 HP at this moment.
- I'm a Cleric/Shaman/Focused Healer, I would like to be useful.
- My character hates magic.
- We have enough healing to get through the day anyway.
- I'm a potion maker, Alchemist or otherwise, I built my character for those, not wands.
- I spent my gold on something else.
- And any other number of reason to simply not use it.

It's simply a case of

I Don't want to die, my odds of not dying are better if I'm at full health. Having lots of cheap quick healing on hand will keep me alive. I would like to be at 100% HPs as much as possible. If I am not at 100% a Critical hit from a Dragon might kill me. Since the Cleric is using his spell slots for not-healing magic, We need as many cheap wands and potions as possible.

You get the same debate in video games like Warcraft. The Devs argue that "Triage Healing is more exciting" the Players argue back "Screw that I want 100% hps at all times or I might die" Players then look for a way to maximize the amount of healing they can squeeze out of things and the devs turn around and nerf healing. and the dance continues

Regardless of how much you want to argue "It's best for the health of the game" many players will still feel "If I am not at 100% then I am near death"


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BryonD wrote:
Voss wrote:
You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers....

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?

Not even vaguely. It's a core part of 3.0, 3.5 and 3.PF's default assumptions. Getting rid of it means finding a functional replacement first.

I get that people may not like 3rd's approach to magic items (I don't care much for the fact that a character's gear is as much or more important than the character's skills and talents), but accessible healing magic is an important part of the system. Especially without dropping the entire burden on the head of one player.

It's actually very beneficial to the game overall, as it helps avoid the 15 minute adventuring day. "Welp, we're out of healing spells. Time to leave and rest."

@Vidmaster7- hmm. I actually like the vorpal as written. If you're lol!randoming a sudden end to a boss fight, it really should have a couple safety catches and costs.

Though confirming crits isn't a thing. Natural 20 and critically succeed just means 20+bonuses are at least enemy AC+10.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I find it odd the Vorpal effect requires so much to activate The crit ofcouse both nat 20 and confirmed then the saving throw and then you still have to spend the resonance.
No more confirming of crits, you just flat out have a 5% chance to choose to spend one RP to force the thing you hit to save against DC35 or be down a head.

Hmm ok so that is a little better but still could go without the resonance cost I think. If only because its an effect of the weapon hitting instead of like actively going here shoot a burst of flame at that person. I feel like the save is a good enough limiter.


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BryonD wrote:
But the call for a solution here is founded on the need for a solution amongst those calling for it.

That doesn't follow. Someone putting on a tinfoil hat and hiding under the bed as a solution to aliens coming for him isn't proof that there is a problem with aliens...

Some people have an issue with it and some don't.


Voss wrote:
BryonD wrote:
Voss wrote:
You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers....

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?

Not even vaguely. It's a core part of 3.0, 3.5 and 3.PF's default assumptions. Getting rid of it means finding a functional replacement first.

I get that people may not like 3rd's approach to magic items (I don't care much for the fact that a character's gear is as much or more important than the character's skills and talents), but accessible healing magic is an important part of the system. Especially without dropping the entire burden on the head of one player.

It's actually very beneficial to the game overall, as it helps avoid the 15 minute adventuring day. "Welp, we're out of healing spells. Time to leave and rest."

@Vidmaster7- hmm. I actually like the vorpal as written. If you're lol!randoming a sudden end to a boss fight, it really should have a couple safety catches and costs.

Though confirming crits isn't a thing. Natural 20 and critically succeed just means 20+bonuses are at least enemy AC+10.

Yeah its not really that I think the saving throw is probably a good idea. I just don't feel like it should cost the res to use the vorpal effect anymore then it should to activate the + dice of damage for having a + sword.


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Thanks for the blog Stephen, I really appreciate all of the hard work you guys are putting in to this new system.

Resonance

I understand the design principals behind resonance, and I think it will really add to the game. There needs to be more than just gold expenditure to balance magic item use and slots for magic items worn. However, I think the added overhead of tracking resonance as well as uses per day (and charges for wands) is legitimate cause for concern.

We definitely want to have strong items, which would be too good if you could freely cast until you run out of resonance. Limiting it in some way is important. However, I think we should move away from uses per day currently previewed and emphasising the unpredictable nature of magic items.

Proposed Change

Here is my proposal: Every time someone Activates a magic item they spend 1 resonance and make a flat d20 roll. If they pass the DC the item is still active (maybe “resonating” as the word). So long as the magic item is resonating, they can continue to activate it by spending resonance and making the roll. If they fail the roll, the item is silent and cannot be used for the rest of the day.

The DC can be set based on how many uses per day you think is reasonable, but it is still very up to chance. For example rather than 3 times per day, you set a DC of 8. So, you are guaranteed 1 activation, with a 65% of a second activation. Providing you get the 2nd activation you still have a 65% chance of a 3rd activation. Because of how statistics work, DC of 8 will be 42% chance of a 3rd activation, 27% chance of 4th activation, 18% chance of 5th activation. Sounds about right for a limit of 3/day.

The equivalent of 2 per day would probably DC 11. So you get guaranteed 1 activation, then a 50% chance of a 2nd activation, 25% chance of 3rd, 13% chance of a 4th.

The equivalent of 5 per day might be DC4. So you get guaranteed 1 activation, then a 85% chance of a 2nd activation, 72% chance of 3rd, 61% chance of a 4th and a 61% chance of a 5th. You still have a 23% of a 10th.

Let’s say you want activation to only be limited by resonance, then you set the DC to 1. If you only want strictly 1 use per day, you set the DC to 25.

Key Advantage

This proposed system only requires tracking 1 resonance per activation. Then there is simply a flat d20 roll and the DC. It is definitely simple and streamlined.

Drawback

RNG can be a harsh mistress. An item with a low DC can still go silent after the first use. Also, a device with a high DC can still be used quite a few times with a string of good rolls. I think losing access to a low DC magic items could piss a player off. Some justification is that the winds of magic a fickle.

Even with this downside, I think it is far more streamlined than the uses per day limitation.

Change to wands

I would suggest using this for wands and abandon charges. I think if people desperately crave a 10 charge wand, then there should be a book of scrolls. You can have ten scrolls in the book. They can all be the same scroll, or you can mix them around based on what you think you need for the day.

Consumables

One use items should keep the current mechanics. Resonance needs to be there as a balance leave in addition to gold expenditure.

Staves

I think staves should keep the current mechanics. I like them.

General Feats

Can we get a +3 (or 2 or 4) resonance general feat? If you find that you are running low on a regular basis, this might be a good feat to have access to. Maybe gnome can also get this as a racial feat.

Magic Weapons

I really like how magic weapons work. A lot of this has been previewed already. I want to repeat that separating potency runes from property runes was a masterful move.

I think the +hit from weapon quality could possible go away, since it does not stack with +hit from potency (right?) it is almost never going to come up.

Upgrading Weapon Quality

I think it would be also good to be able to reforge your own weapon to improve its quality. I have changed the handle three times, and the blade twice, but it is still my grandfather’s axe. People do get emotional about their weapons, and this is great RP. The rules need to support this.

Etching -> Inscribing

I was surprised some people seemed up in arms about the word “etched”. Maybe “inscribed” would be a better word? I hope it requires a bit of downtime to shift a rune from one weapon to another. I find hot-swapping runes a bit unsatisfying.

Can a potency rune found on a sword be transferred onto armour? I think this could be good.

Set DCs

Set DC on vorpal was an interesting reveal. Are there level 18, 19 and 20 vorpal runes with DC 36, 37 and 38 respectively?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
They could have just cut things down to "2 Actions," or "1 Action," or "Reaction," especially since we have no idea what Focus Activation Actions are (no blog post explaining this, and yet it's introduced to us? WTF Paizo!), but instead decided to go with symbols (which aren't properly represented on the forums, I might add, which doesn't help with the presentation), and then in magic item rules, they invent things like Operate Activation Action, and Interact Action Activation, when "Actions: Operate, Interact" get approximately the same meaning across, with a more clean format, and actually being worth the page count as it is quite clear what actions are required for a given ability. (I still prefer "Activation: 2 Actions," since it's not clear what each type of item action is, and why there is a distinction between them, but I took a more conservative approach.) Bonus points if it requires resonance, and there is a (Pay 1 RP) clause in there as well.

They explained what Operate, Command, and Focus Activations are right at the beginning of Monday’s blog.

“Activating items follows a system similar to that used for spells. Just as casting a spell requires you to spend actions to supply the somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell, activated items require you to use the Command Activation, Focus Activation, or Operate Activation action, or a combination of multiple actions. A potion requires you to spend an Operate Activation action to drink it. A necklace of fireballs requires you to spend 2 Operate Activation actions to unbind a bead and throw it. Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction.”

Operate means you have to bodily do something to Activate it.
Command means you have to say a command word.
Focus means you need to provide a mental nudge.

It’s the direct descendant of the item activation rules from PF1 (command word, use-activated, etc.), only now it’s directly analogous to the spell component system. It exists to explicitly codify how you activate an item beyond its simple action cost. Can you use a wand in an area of silence? If it requires Command Activation, probably not. Can you use your necklace of fireballs? Sure, it only requires Operate Activations. What if you’re paralyzed? You’re probably limited to items that use the Focus Activation.

Interact Actions aren’t related to magic item Activation, or at least not directly. Interact is one of the broad action types used throughout the game, like Stride, Strike, and Step. Shifting your grip on your weapon, for example, is an Interact Action (IIRC).


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Voss wrote:
BryonD wrote:
Voss wrote:
You're going to have to make a strong case that it was an exploit (let alone an undesired and unintended one), however, having survived 3.0 -> 3.5 and 3.5 -> PF. If they didn't grasp that it was happening over the course of a decade-plus, 3.5 and PF1 had really terrible designers....

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as undesired?

Can we agree that here in 2018 it is seen as an optimization hack?
Not even vaguely. It's a core part of 3.0, 3.5 and 3.PF's default assumptions. Getting rid of it means finding a functional replacement first.

No, a default assumption of the 3.0-PF system was that you use approximately 20% of your resources on a fight with CR = APL. Use of wands of Cure Light changes that to more like 5%.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:

So, is the weapon Potency different from the Weapon Tier? Does a Legendary +5 Longsword grant +8?

They're different but don't stack. So you could have a +1 Legendary sword, which'd have +3 to hit, or a +5 Legendary sword which'd have +5 to hit.

Well that isn't intuitive. Yet.


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Kaemy wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Will there be a potion of resonance restoration?
Yes, restores 1 RP, and costs 1 RP to Activate it's Activable Activation Actiony Action. It's called water.

The fabled Aitchtuwo? Nah, that's just a myth.

ENHenry wrote:
Ludovicus wrote:
Dude, if you guys are introducing this whole big immersion-compromising system to cordon off a degenerate edge case, it might be a good idea to rethink things.
Honestly, it’s not an edge case - it’s something my group and every group I talk to does, because it doesn’t make sense not to. Hit hard in combat, don’t bother with healing in-fight, then spam the heck out of 750gold CLW wands when you survive. even my 13th and 14th level characters carry three or four CLW wands. In fact, only our Hell’s Rebels group didn’t do that, because I played a life oracle and was pretty much a fountain of Positive Energy.

A reminder that the plural of anecdote is not data. My counter-anecdote is that I've never encountered this problem in any groups I've gamed with. In the game I'm running at the moment on these boards, at least 2 of the party would be dead if they hadn't been healed in-fight by other party members.

Liberty's Edge

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:

So, is the weapon Potency different from the Weapon Tier? Does a Legendary +5 Longsword grant +8?

They're different but don't stack. So you could have a +1 Legendary sword, which'd have +3 to hit, or a +5 Legendary sword which'd have +5 to hit.
Well that isn't intuitive. Yet.

Eh. It's exactly the same as Masterwork bonuses and Magic Weapon bonuses used to work. Seems fairly intuitive to me.


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I really liked the weapons descriptions until we hit vorpal; I HOPE that the focus activation is intended to occur after the trigger, and isn't something you have to do to prime the trigger; both are bad but this is probably a necessary balance change if vorpal is to 'only' cost 15 k gp. Since we now know the better weapon abilities will be gated with extra action requirements, I assume that two weapon fighter fans should again play another system? Or can multiple weapons be activated simultaneously? Will that have a feat tax? Is vorpal pretty much the only ability which is so gated, and therefore this line of questioning is pointless?

Armor: If resonance is supposed to replace the x/day stuff in items, why are armor abilities still written with x/day stuff. So now I have a tax on my mock spell points to even gain any benefit from my expensive item, I have an additional tax to use it, and it works the same as it would without the mock spell point system. Why? It might as well not be magical.

I had about talked myself into giving resonance a try before reading all this, becaue I think with a lot of changes it could be made into a fun roleplay aspect of the game, but I get a distinct window's vista vibe from all this. Hello pop-up windows asking if you really want to perform an action, asking if you really meant to hit yes, and still not working right.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Trekkie90909 wrote:

I really liked the weapons descriptions until we hit vorpal; I HOPE that the focus activation is intended to occur after the trigger, and isn't something you have to do to prime the trigger; both are bad but this is probably a necessary balance change if vorpal is to 'only' cost 15 k gp. Since we now know the better weapon abilities will be gated with extra action requirements, I assume that two weapon fighter fans should again play another system? Or can multiple weapons be activated simultaneously? Will that have a feat tax? Is vorpal pretty much the only ability which is so gated, and therefore this line of questioning is pointless?

The focus activation is a reaction. Those generally happen after whatever triggers them.

Shadow Lodge

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BryonD wrote:
So PF2E by denying CLW spam will force all parties to be stupid?

Are they able to heal themselves? No? Not stupid. (Depending on situation.)

The current situation is "CLW wands are so cheap parties can stock them and heal up after every fight without impacting resources". The desirable thing is "the party can expend healing to have health up, but that will cost them in other areas".

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
BryonD wrote:

Them: We cast CLW constantly. It sucks. Please make it go away.

Me: Don't spam CLW
Them: What are you an idiot?

Who is 'them'? You are not discussing this with a monolithic entity, but a chaotic mess of different individuals with different nuances of opinion.


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graystone wrote:
BryonD wrote:
I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.
Some devs and players/dm's don't like it others do. It's NOT a true/false question. It's not a universal truth. SO there will NEVER be an agreement on this IMO. I know I can't see a situation where I'm going to change my mind on it. CLW isn't bad and it's not an exploit as far as I'm concerned.

You don't have to confirm crits anymore but the wording of vorpal suggests not only does it only happen on nat 20 but that if the nat 20 does not put you 10 above succeeding then it won't activate.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

First, I think that more powerful items might require more Resonance to be Empowered. This can include certain Wands and Staves, and more potent forms of armor.

Second, drop the Resonance for using a one-shot potion. If it's something like Dragon's Breath then ONLY use Resonance for additional uses.

Third, it's a shame the Devs fled so quickly. I hope they take note at what folk are saying here but it's not been nearly as hostile as some threads and yet the Devs went bye bye most quickly.

(Fourth, I'm glad I didn't spring for a print edition of the playtest rules. Because this thing is going to go through some MASSIVE changes I suspect - at least with Resonance and magic items.)


Arcarial wrote:
graystone wrote:
BryonD wrote:
I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.
Some devs and players/dm's don't like it others do. It's NOT a true/false question. It's not a universal truth. SO there will NEVER be an agreement on this IMO. I know I can't see a situation where I'm going to change my mind on it. CLW isn't bad and it's not an exploit as far as I'm concerned.
You don't have to confirm crits anymore but the wording of vorpal suggests not only does it only happen on nat 20 but that if the nat 20 does not put you 10 above succeeding then it won't activate.

That is kind of what I had thought but I wasn't sure enough to push the issue. I guess its probably very unlikely that you would have a situation where you hit with a 20 and didn't get 10 over at least.


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Tangent101 wrote:
Third, it's a shame the Devs fled so quickly. I hope they take note at what folk are saying here but it's not been nearly as hostile as some threads and yet the Devs went bye bye most quickly.

Well, I'm not surprised given every time Mark said something, people were twisting his words to suit what they wanted it to say within two posts. It was at the level where it's not worth it for devs to comment on the subject.

Liberty's Edge

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Arcarial wrote:
graystone wrote:
BryonD wrote:
I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.
Some devs and players/dm's don't like it others do. It's NOT a true/false question. It's not a universal truth. SO there will NEVER be an agreement on this IMO. I know I can't see a situation where I'm going to change my mind on it. CLW isn't bad and it's not an exploit as far as I'm concerned.
You don't have to confirm crits anymore but the wording of vorpal suggests not only does it only happen on nat 20 but that if the nat 20 does not put you 10 above succeeding then it won't activate.
That is kind of what I had thought but I wasn't sure enough to push the issue. I guess its probably very unlikely that you would have a situation where you hit with a 20 and didn't get 10 over at least.

That's not quite how Natural 20s work in PF2. Natural 20s auto-hit. If they'd be a hit even without that fact, then they crit.

So Vorpal doesn't trigger on something you only hit by sheer luck, but does the rest of the time (or can, anyway).


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Well it is the weekend.

Grand Lodge

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What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Arcarial wrote:
graystone wrote:
BryonD wrote:
I think we must assume the answers to both questions are "yes". The whole demand for a correction hinges upon it.
Some devs and players/dm's don't like it others do. It's NOT a true/false question. It's not a universal truth. SO there will NEVER be an agreement on this IMO. I know I can't see a situation where I'm going to change my mind on it. CLW isn't bad and it's not an exploit as far as I'm concerned.
You don't have to confirm crits anymore but the wording of vorpal suggests not only does it only happen on nat 20 but that if the nat 20 does not put you 10 above succeeding then it won't activate.
That is kind of what I had thought but I wasn't sure enough to push the issue. I guess its probably very unlikely that you would have a situation where you hit with a 20 and didn't get 10 over at least.

There are also things like Fortification that let the target turn a critical hit into a normal hit.

If that happens, I presume you wouldn't be able to trigger your Vorpal weapon, even if you met the "rolled a natural 20" requirement and would have otherwise critically hit.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

I like most of these suggestion the first 3 was how I thought it was going to work. as for the other ones

I can't say for sure what would be the correct amount of resonance to give out.
Hmm not sure about the synchronize but its going to depend on how many resonance too
Potions is interesting. I actually wouldn't mind potions not using any resonance. or having a different tracker.

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