Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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3 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Did we really need orichalcum with all the other magical metals and materials we have?
What's one more?

The fact that orichalcum armor self-repairs makes me wonder whether living steel is going away.


Corrik wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Corrik wrote:

P1: Then I'll drink my Dragon's Breath Potion and show him what real morning's breath smells like!

P2: Don't be stupid, you only have 2 RP left. Complete waste of the potion and you'll be SOL if you get knocked out.

P1: Oh yeah, never mind I'll just full attack then.

But it costs 1 to drink, and 0 to activate on the same turn.

It lasts for an hour, so to get the most use you'll want to have plenty of RP to burn. Using it only once is a complete waste. Using it twice is almost as much of a waste and leaves vulnerable for death.

Resonance discourages expendable use.

Regarding vulnerable to death: have a single person capable of making a DC 15 Medicine check.

Furthermore, calculations have shown that you have effectively 2 Resonance to overspend before it starts becoming actually dangerous. So really, even in that situation it's not hard to spend away. I'm a person who loves to hoard consumables, and I'd be fine with using it in that situation.


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Varun Creed wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

Overall nice!

Immediate feedback though:

  • Orichalcium has two different rules, better to use one, and use a different metal for the selfhealing effect.
  • INVISIBILITY armor property has nothing in it's description saying that you need to spend 1 RP per cast. Your blogtext seem to say that..?
If it says "something something Activation" it uses 1 resonance. It's not very clear though, but it seems consistent with what they write.

Yea I re-read that, and it seems to be that any [[A]] costs 1RP.. But that seems weird because that's just the Action symbol, since [[R]] is the Resolve symbol.

Maybe there's a rule that any "Activation"-descriptor means that it costs 1 Resolve Point?

It's my understanding from reading these blogs that [[A]] is the symbol for "Action," while [[R]] is the symbol for "Reaction."

Activations are a subset of actions, which cost Resonance. Therefore,
[[A]] Operate Action = 1 action, no Resonance
[[R]] on Vorpal = Uses your Reaction for the turn (and the "Trigger" text next to it indicates what sets off a Reaction. That seems to be consistent formatting.)
[[A]] Operate Activation Action = 1 action, 1 Resonance


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Voss wrote:

Right, so, first and foremost.

Etched runes. Just... just for the record, you know etching involves cutting designs into, say... metal, yes? This isn't a process that is erased or 'copied' just by licking your thumb and wiping it away.

Some in-world justification for how they're easily removed of transferred would be nice. Something that isn't just wave another medium (a runestone) at it, so copying it twice.

It's a magic process. I see it like this: You etch into the new weapom with the old one by the side, as you finish the etching, a blue glow flows from the old rune to the new & the old one dissolves to powder with that special effect you've seen in every fantasy film of the last 30 years. It just doesn't seem a stretch at all.


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Paizo blog wrote:
You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions

Oh Dog I can't even


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Confirmed: You have to spend an action to BREATHE IN!

Seriously? What does and doesn't take an action feels REALLY arbitrary.

I like weapons and armor (aside from the fact that Vorpal and Fortification are both weaker now, and both rarely saw any play already), but seriously, the action system needs to be reevaluated.

At this point, I don't care if it isn't balanced to allow people to change their grip, lift a shield, or breath in to prepare a breath weapon for free, it makes no sense in game for these things to tie up a third of their turn. Balance these abilities some other way.

Grand Lodge

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Idea: Why don't we have Potions work like Poisons. Drink too much and you get sick and your body rejects it.

This way, we still reach the design goal that high level players should use high level potions.

Edit: I guess you can argue this is Resonance as well.. (the magic reservoir your body can handle) Maybe this flavor should be explained within the rulebook?


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For real, though. Paizo, please please please consider consolidating terms wherever possible so we don't get a nomenclature nightmare.

What is the effective difference between saying that an item requires an Operate Activation Action vs. saying it requires Somatic Activation? Or Command Activation and Verbal Activation? Focus Activation is a bit trickier, but even "Free Action Activation" or "Activated by Thought" would remove an extraneous term.

Unless you plan to have a list of feats for things specifically like Focus Activations and whatnot.


So, does the armour bonus apply to all saves? If so that is kind of hilarious, though I sorta like it.


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No matter what angle I squint at it, Resonance just squats over the things it touches, adding an extra layer to items that already have enough layers. It's just not simplifying anything. I would prefer item slots.

Runes are cool, potencies & properties are cool, terminology remains pretty horrible & clunky overall (but this last can be easily revised for final release).

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
thflame wrote:

Confirmed: You have to spend an action to BREATHE IN!

Seriously? What does and doesn't take an action feels REALLY arbitrary.

You gotta huff and puff if you're gonna blow the house down.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Also guys, the two action thing for breath weapon spam sounds like it's to keep it roughly on par with spells, which it sort of plays like. Also presumably monster mechanics.

Paizo Employee Designer

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edduardco wrote:
The first three levels of Healing potions looks well balanced and priced correctly, but then the last three are completely overpriced for the healing offered no wonder Resonance is required to make them barely desirable.

The greater healing potion is actually a really good value, even just vis-a-vis rising PF1 potion costs. It offers nearly double the healing for only triple the GP cost, which in a fight is more than worth it for the savings in the action economy alone, resonance notwithstanding. 3rd level healing potions in PF1 offered only 1.5 times the healing for 2.5 times the GP cost of 2nd level healing potions (and 2nd level potions were even worse, 6x the cost for double the healing). The final two potions are indeed much more expensive per point of healing, so you might stick with greaters as your "go-to" potion for a while, but you eventually start getting enough money that you might consider the cost to be low compared to the convenience.

Sovereign Court

Snickersnack requires resonance boo.


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Cloak of Elvenkind:
- 10th level, 1,000 gp.
- Unlimited uses of Invisibility, 1 RP each.
- Two actions to activate. (One if you already have the hood up?)
- Requires separate attunement.
- Provides +3 stealth.
- Provides at-will Ghost Sound.

Invisibility Armor:
- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Did we really need orichalcum with all the other magical metals and materials we have?
What's one more?

One too many? The last straw? A bad idea? I mean, we could just attribute the things they are giving to orichalcum to any of the other materials we already have. We're changing everything else.

Paizo Employee Designer

28 people marked this as a favorite.
thflame wrote:
Vorpal and Fortification... both rarely saw any play

In a system where they came at a quadratic cost increase to everything else on your weapon (and in vorpal and heavy fortification's case, an enormous increase worth the same as a +5), they certainly did rarely see play. In a system where you can put whatever you want into your property slot and it doesn't increase the cost of future +s and other runes, we will definitely see the more powerful and expensive runes be used much more often than the properties that cost a big + were before.

Dark Archive

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Using resonance on truly expendable items seems like it'll feel bad.
Honestly, what's the advantage of consumable items then?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
kwiqsilver wrote:
Voss wrote:

Right, so, first and foremost.

Etched runes. Just... just for the record, you know etching involves cutting designs into, say... metal, yes? This isn't a process that is erased or 'copied' just by licking your thumb and wiping it away.

Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

Its great for decorative arts, maker's marks and monuments and markers. I'd expect to see a lot of mundane etching in Golarion, especially in Ulfen lands, where they're explicitly using runes for mundane communication and land claims.


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edduardco wrote:

Sad that Wand weren't shown

Also, why weapons get a free pass on investment?

Probably to not screw over TWP fighters or make it feasible to have multiple weapons on you in to overcome DR

Paizo Employee Designer

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QuidEst wrote:

Cloak of Elvenkind:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp.
- Unlimited uses of Invisibility, 1 RP each.
- Two actions to activate. (One if you already have the hood up?)
- Requires separate attunement.
- Provides +3 stealth.
- Provides at-will Ghost Sound.

Invisibility Armor:
- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

The single-action use is also extremely powerful. It is essentially quickened invisibility, so you do your spell for the round (or other two-actions of stuff) and then just go invis. In a four round important boss fight, you could do that every round.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:

Invisibility Armor:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.

Paizo Employee Designer

16 people marked this as a favorite.
knightnday wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Did we really need orichalcum with all the other magical metals and materials we have?
What's one more?
One too many? The last straw? A bad idea? I mean, we could just attribute the things they are giving to orichalcum to any of the other materials we already have. We're changing everything else.

Pathfinder already had the skymetal orichalcum, though, just with an 'h' at the beginning. Only the spelling changed.


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I said it before, and I will say it again, we REALLY need the Success/Failure stuff IN ORDER.

Ideally: Critical Failure > Failure > Success > Critical Sucess

(But I would settle for the other way around from Critical Sucess to Critical Failure).

I don't care if sometimes you need to read Failure before Critical Failure because the later includes the effects of the first, in those cases you will have to read both anyway no matter the order, so JUST - PLACE - THEM - IN ORDER.

When reading a spell wondering what it does, like let's say "Petrify", it shouldn't start reading like: "It sightly annoys your limbs > It does nothing"


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ChibiNyan wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:

Rather than:

Success
Critical Success
Failure
Critical Failure

I think it would be more logical to list them in best -> worst (or worst -> best based on your POV) order:
C S
S
F
C F

There's already a thread about this from months ago where Mark explains why it's the way it is. Here's a summary:

Sometimes the Crit Effects are based on the normal effect. Example:

Failure: The target is flat-footed and enfeebled 1 for 1 round.
Critical Failure: As Success, but duration is 2 rounds.

So it's not about OCD aesthetics stuff, but logic readability of effects.

Except that if you're looking for a particular result, you're going to skip through and dismiss other, irrelevant, entries. Regardless of which entry comes first, I'm not going to read the standard success entry until the crit success entry tells me to.

I think I'd prefer a logical progression of effects, rather than any logical "readability".

Where is that thread, by the way? My argument may already have been made there; I don't know.


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Oricalcum, albeit under a different spelling, has previously existed in-universe with completely different properties. Can we at least try to keep our metals consistent?

PF1 horacalcum:
AoN, special materials wrote:

Horacalcum

Source Pathfinder #61: Shards of Sin pg. 71 (Amazon)

The rarest of the known skymetals, this dull, coppery substance warps time around it, making things seem to speed up or slow down. Horacalcum is associated with illusion magic, humility, and pride. Almost never found in amounts greater than a pound, horacalcum is the same weight and density as steel, but is much more durable. A weapon made of horacalcum gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls (ammunition can be made of horacalcum, but does not grant any bonus on attack rolls). An entire suit of armor made from this rare metal is fantastically expensive, but since a suit of horacalcum armor simultaneously allows its wearer to react more quickly while perceiving time more slowly, some consider the cost justifiable. A suit of light horacalcum armor grants a +1 bonus on Initiative checks, medium horacalcum armor grants a +2 bonus on Initiative checks, and heavy horacalcum armor grants a +3 bonus on Initiative checks. Weapons and armor made of horacalcum are always of masterwork quality—the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

Weapons and armor made of horacalcum have one-fourth more hit points than normal. Horacalcum has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15. A weapon made of horacalcum costs +6,000 gp. Light armor costs +10,000 gp, medium armor +30,000 gp, and heavy armor +60,000 gp.

And while I'm talking about metals,

blog wrote:
Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property.

You do realize this was literally the first thing I deemed necessary to houserule out of existence in PF1?

Also, Etching is not a reversible process


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Voss wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:
Voss wrote:

Right, so, first and foremost.

Etched runes. Just... just for the record, you know etching involves cutting designs into, say... metal, yes? This isn't a process that is erased or 'copied' just by licking your thumb and wiping it away.

Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

Its great for decorative arts, maker's marks and monuments and markers. I'd expect to see a lot of mundane etching in Golarion, especially in Ulfen lands, where they're explicitly using runes for mundane communication and land claims.

You deserve a rolleyes for that.

I mean Etching in the context they've just presented. It's blatantly obvious I did.

Edit, but leaving my original comment so as to not confuse:
My bad, you weren't replying to me, just to someone who said exactly the same thing.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
I question why Dents is capitalized. Possible Weapon/armor damage mechanics?

Shields.

Do I spy with my little eye that the Disruption weapon property is no longer bludgeoning only?

Contributor

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Combat Monster wrote:
That flat check on the Armor of Fortification seems pretty rough.

The chance to roll a 17 or higher on a d20 is 25%. It is the same as in pF1, just a different die.

Paizo Employee Designer

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KingOfAnything wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Invisibility Armor:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.

Logan and I were talking about this one too, since it's maybe one of the only X/day that isn't 1/day in the whole playtest. It's possible we should make it a two-action invis usable at will as like a level 9 rune (with the 1/day going down to 7), for example. It's the action economy advantages that really makes it push the envelope right now, even with 3.


Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Cloak of Elvenkind:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp.
- Unlimited uses of Invisibility, 1 RP each.
- Two actions to activate. (One if you already have the hood up?)
- Requires separate attunement.
- Provides +3 stealth.
- Provides at-will Ghost Sound.

Invisibility Armor:
- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

The single-action use is also extremely powerful. It is essentially quickened invisibility, so you do your spell for the round (or other two-actions of stuff) and then just go invis. In a four round important boss fight, you could do that every round.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I can see now why this would need a limit where the cloak wouldn't.

(On the matter of the cloak, looking back at it after seeing this, I'd expect some people to try getting out of the operate activation action when the hood is already up for the stealth bonus.)


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MerlinCross wrote:

I question why Dents is capitalized. Possible Weapon/armor damage mechanics?

Also wait, do I have to spend RP, after drinking the Dragon Potion, everytime I go to breath?

I'd like to see this clarified before jumping to "Worst potion ever" stance. But if true I can see this only being used at time of drinking.

Didn't they mention a thing a while back about shields receiving damage if you tried to use them to block damage and the damage was higher than your shield's DR?

Maybe it's for that, fixing up jacked up shields.

Also, could be for sundering shenanigans if that's still in game, but I don't know if it is.

Sovereign Court

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graeme mcdougall wrote:
Voss wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:
Voss wrote:

Right, so, first and foremost.

Etched runes. Just... just for the record, you know etching involves cutting designs into, say... metal, yes? This isn't a process that is erased or 'copied' just by licking your thumb and wiping it away.

Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

Its great for decorative arts, maker's marks and monuments and markers. I'd expect to see a lot of mundane etching in Golarion, especially in Ulfen lands, where they're explicitly using runes for mundane communication and land claims.

You deserve a rolleyes for that.

I mean Etching in the context they've just presented. It's blatantly obvious I did.

Yeah. Etching a magical rune is inherently magical.


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Elleth wrote:
Also guys, the two action thing for breath weapon spam sounds like it's to keep it roughly on par with spells, which it sort of plays like. Also presumably monster mechanics.

That isn't the issue- people get the action economy, and comparing it to other spells and abilities.

It's the idea that 'a deep breath' costs 'an action' sets a precedent. Consider the possibility that precedent sets with underwater encounters. Finding and moving to air pockets to take deep breaths and continue the encounter. Suddenly you're burning all sorts of actions just to focus on the fight for a limited amount of time in the following turns.

Alternately, it doesn't set a precedent and 'what is an action' becomes very vague, nebulous and arbitrary. Even more so than 'hand on' and 'hand off' are already a nitpicky contradiction at far too high a level of detail.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
edduardco wrote:
The first three levels of Healing potions looks well balanced and priced correctly, but then the last three are completely overpriced for the healing offered no wonder Resonance is required to make them barely desirable.
The greater healing potion is actually a really good value, even just vis-a-vis rising PF1 potion costs. It offers nearly double the healing for only triple the GP cost, which in a fight is more than worth it for the savings in the action economy alone, resonance notwithstanding. 3rd level healing potions in PF1 offered only 1.5 times the healing for 2.5 times the GP cost of 2nd level healing potions (and 2nd level potions were even worse, 6x the cost for double the healing). The final two potions are indeed much more expensive per point of healing, so you might stick with greaters as your "go-to" potion for a while, but you eventually start getting enough money that you might consider the cost to be low compared to the convenience.

You are right Mark. High level items even if pricey makes perfect sense for in battle usege where time is on the premium and why cheap items are ideal for out of battle, but resonance disencourage the latest and that is why I don't like it for consumables.


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Voss wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:
Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

This discussion is in the context of creating magic items in the Pathfinder 2 game, not an earthly cemetery. Creating a magical rune of potency or sharpness on a scimitar is a magical process. Removing that rune is a magical process. Transferring that rune to another item would also be a magical process.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Cloak of Elvenkind:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp.
- Unlimited uses of Invisibility, 1 RP each.
- Two actions to activate. (One if you already have the hood up?)
- Requires separate attunement.
- Provides +3 stealth.
- Provides at-will Ghost Sound.

Invisibility Armor:
- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

The single-action use is also extremely powerful. It is essentially quickened invisibility, so you do your spell for the round (or other two-actions of stuff) and then just go invis. In a four round important boss fight, you could do that every round.

Either do 1/day, or unlimited at 1 RP/use, or have a new property for such items (say, "Taxing") whose effect is that the first use in a day costs 1 RP, the second use costs 2 RP, the third uses costs 3 RP, and so on. If I have to pay resonance to activate something, I never want to see a miscellaneous uses per day limit other than 1/day.


The Sideromancer wrote:

Oricalcum, albeit under a different spelling, has previously existed in-universe with completely different properties. Can we at least try to keep our metals consistent?

** spoiler omitted **

And while I'm talking about metals,

blog wrote:
Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property.

You do realize this was literally the first thing I deemed necessary to houserule out of existence in PF1?

Also, Etching is not a reversible process

Ninjaed regarding the sky metal.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Invisibility Armor:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.
Logan and I were talking about this one too, since it's maybe one of the only X/day that isn't 1/day in the whole playtest. It's possible we should make it a two-action invis usable at will as like a level 9 rune (with the 1/day going down to 7), for example. It's the action economy advantages that really makes it push the envelope right now, even with 3.

I suggest that in future blogs you stick to examples that are actually typical of the playtest, because that's how we all (mis)read them.


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kwiqsilver wrote:
Voss wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:
Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

This discussion is in the context of creating magic items in the Pathfinder 2 game, not an earthly cemetery. Creating a magical rune of potency or sharpness on a scimitar is a magical process. Removing that rune is a magical process. Transferring that rune to another item would also be a magical process.

True---and none of those magical processes should be referred to as "etching." Just make the method keyword "rune" or "runic" and talk about "applying/removing/transferring" runes.


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I'm sorry, I didn't like these last two articles.
I was hoping that Resonance would actually replace all those charges, X/day uses, etc. That would be nice, but now it's just an extra-layer of complexity, which will end up not being good.
Also, runes shouldn't be so easily removed, transferred and so on. You might want to change the description. Runes seem to me something more permanent and personal: you cannot "transfer" a rune from one place to another. The description does not match the fluff, sorry.

With the previous information about resonance, I was excited about magical items. I'm not anymore, and I think this is my first disappointment with Pathfinder 2.

Sovereign Court

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Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.
Logan and I were talking about this one too, since it's maybe one of the only X/day that isn't 1/day in the whole playtest. It's possible we should make it a two-action invis usable at will as like a level 9 rune (with the 1/day going down to 7), for example. It's the action economy advantages that really makes it push the envelope right now, even with 3.

Thanks for the explanation. That action economy advantage is particularly powerful. Knowing that it is rare to have X/day limits makes me feel better. I hope it stays that way, and that the exceptions are similarly worth the extra limit.

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Now that I'm thinking a bit more about Resonance.. What about switching it from a resource that you spend to a capacity that you build up?

[[M]] Magical Resonance
Your body can only handle a certain capacity of magic resonating with your spirit. Your maximum resonance is your level + your Charisma modifier on each day. Any action or investment that costs a [[M]] counts up to this maximum capacity.
If your body tries to resonate with more magic, there is a chance your body will reject the magic. If you're at maximum resonance, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you go over your maximum resonance capacity. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

Sovereign Court

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Voss wrote:
Elleth wrote:
Also guys, the two action thing for breath weapon spam sounds like it's to keep it roughly on par with spells, which it sort of plays like. Also presumably monster mechanics.

That isn't the issue- people get the action economy, and comparing it to other spells and abilities.

It's the idea that 'a deep breath' costs 'an action' sets a precedent. Consider the possibility that precedent sets with underwater encounters. Finding and moving to air pockets to take deep breaths and continue the encounter. Suddenly you're burning all sorts of actions just to focus on the fight for a limited amount of time in the following turns.

That seems like a natural action to have in the Athletics skills rules. A Deep Breath to increase your breath endurance.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Invisibility Armor:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.
Logan and I were talking about this one too, since it's maybe one of the only X/day that isn't 1/day in the whole playtest. It's possible we should make it a two-action invis usable at will as like a level 9 rune (with the 1/day going down to 7), for example. It's the action economy advantages that really makes it push the envelope right now, even with 3.

Bummer, I was expecting to never see a 1/day item again, it would be really that unbalanced that items could be activated as many times as resonance can be expended?


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graeme mcdougall wrote:
Voss wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:
Voss wrote:

Right, so, first and foremost.

Etched runes. Just... just for the record, you know etching involves cutting designs into, say... metal, yes? This isn't a process that is erased or 'copied' just by licking your thumb and wiping it away.

Etching a rune is a magical process

>.>

No, it isn't. Etching is a normal thing mundane people actually do with metal and stone work.... unless you want to claim that anyone's great-great grandparent's headstones are magical objects.

Its great for decorative arts, maker's marks and monuments and markers. I'd expect to see a lot of mundane etching in Golarion, especially in Ulfen lands, where they're explicitly using runes for mundane communication and land claims.

You deserve a rolleyes for that.

I mean Etching in the context they've just presented. It's blatantly obvious I did.

Then you don't understand the problem I have with it. It's a continuation of the ongoing Terminology Problem, which encompasses all sorts of mechanical and in-game things that are anachronistic, inappropriate, awkward and/or mean something completely different than what the chosen term actually means.

Especially when it is going to come up as period/setting appropriate. That they're also treating etching metal like wax pencil marks and magical items like temporary tattoos just grinds it in deeper. Etching is a mundane skill. Applying magical stickers is a different thing. So call it something else.

Further, given that PF2 is even more entrenched in Golarion as a setting, this is yet more things that... don't exist in that setting. Well established characters have legendary items that aren't Orihalcuzwhatsit with temporary sticker decals slapped on them.


Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Invisibility Armor:

- 10th level, 1,000 gp (or 8th and half that for very limited use).
- 3 uses, 1 RP each. (Unless you went for 500gp version, which just has one).
- One action to activate.
- Attunement included with armor (something you need to have attuned).
- Uses up armor property slot.

I'd be happier a harder push to ditch limited per-day tracking, but maybe that extra point of attunement is tough to balance just on price and add-on features alone.

That three uses was my biggest disappointment. If the rune needs to be more expensive or higher level to be unlimited, so be it. I only want to see 1/day or unlimited uses.
Logan and I were talking about this one too, since it's maybe one of the only X/day that isn't 1/day in the whole playtest. It's possible we should make it a two-action invis usable at will as like a level 9 rune (with the 1/day going down to 7), for example. It's the action economy advantages that really makes it push the envelope right now, even with 3.

Another way to mitigate this (somewhat) is to change the resonance costs to use between the lesser and greater versions.

a

Shadow Lodge

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The Sideromancer wrote:

Oricalcum, albeit under a different spelling, has previously existed in-universe with completely different properties. Can we at least try to keep our metals consistent?

** spoiler omitted **

Consistent with a previous edition? Not necessary.


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Voss wrote:


Then you don't understand the problem I have with it. It's a continuation of the ongoing Terminology Problem, which encompasses all sorts of mechanical and in-game things that are anachronistic, inappropriate, awkward and/or mean something completely different than what the chosen term actually means.

That they're also treating etching metal like wax pencil marks and magical items like temporary tattoos just grinds it in deeper.

Further, given that PF2 is even more entrenched in Golarion as a setting, this is yet more things that... don't exist in that setting. Well established characters have legendary items that aren't Orihalcuzwhatsit with temporary sticker decals slapped on them.

Yes, pretty much.

Runes don't seem like something easily removable, let alone transferable. They should change either the description or the mechanics.
And just saying "A Wizard did it" doesn't make things look good in this context. I mean, magic can have all arbitrary rules as you want, but going against common sense with no reason other than mechanics is a bad idea.

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