Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
651 to 700 of 861 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:
On key abilities: I wonder what they will do for the Paladin. The obvious key stats are strength and charisma, but if someone wants to make a dex based paladin they need that. But dex and strength only feels wrong. Then again, I would have said not including wisdom as an option for the monk would have felt wrong before the preview.

I feel like this is a thing you can manage via archetypes. Just like how there were archetypes in PF1 that changed a casting attribute (e.g. eldritch scion magus) if you made a PF2 Paladin archetype like the Virtuoso Bravo, you could just change the key attribute to dex. Likewise if you wanted to do an especially mystic monk (like the serpent fire adept) you could change the key attribute to wisdom.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
On key abilities: I wonder what they will do for the Paladin. The obvious key stats are strength and charisma, but if someone wants to make a dex based paladin they need that. But dex and strength only feels wrong. Then again, I would have said not including wisdom as an option for the monk would have felt wrong before the preview.
I feel like this is a thing you can manage via archetypes. Just like how there were archetypes in PF1 that changed a casting attribute (e.g. eldritch scion magus) if you made a PF2 Paladin archetype like the Virtuoso Bravo, you could just change the key attribute to dex. Likewise if you wanted to do an especially mystic monk (like the serpent fire adept) you could change the key attribute to wisdom.

Another thing to bear in mind is that just because it's not the key stat for the class that doesn't mean you don't need it. Monks shouldn't dump WIS just because the key stat is STR or DEX.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Long jumping can be handy too. Clearing obstacles without burning spell slots. A dex focused monk with all those mobility options makes for an excellent sneaky scout. But as others mentioned, skill feats will be the big thing.

On key abilities: I wonder what they will do for the Paladin. The obvious key stats are strength and charisma, but if someone wants to make a dex based paladin they need that. But dex and strength only feels wrong. Then again, I would have said not including wisdom as an option for the monk would have felt wrong before the preview.

I feel that it'll be STR or CHA. And if you want to make a DEX based Pal there will be an Archetype that will give you that option. As in one (for example) that'll make Retributive strike ranged...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Belial__ wrote:

I'm worried with the Str and Dex choice.

Str bigger damage, and lower AC -> dead in every battle
Dex lower damage, higher AC -> fast kid punching

Flurry of glass shards vs flurry of tickles

Without any work you can have Str and Dex within 2 points of each other, so I don't see that large difference.


So the new monk looks awesome. I think it might actually be a really good option this time around.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
JoelF847 wrote:

Since monks use kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. could we re-name all of their abilities to not use the word "fist"? They're all unarmed strikes, so instead of powerful fist, can we have powerful strike, and have stunning strike instead of stunning fist, etc?

Have to agree that stunning fist doesn't seem very stunning anymore. Either re-name it or make stunning a more likely result. Having it only happen on a crit hit and a crit save failure is pretty unlikely.

I suspect you guys are missing a point: this isn't PF1, you aren't competing with spellcaster with spells that can stun people easily.

From what we have heard of color spray it probably stun a target only on a critical failure.
Apparently, most spells will end up applying lesser conditions on normal failures.
So downgrading most of the Save or Suck effects from spells require to do the same for the abilities that can be used every round forever.

Without seeing a more extended selection of spells it is difficult to judge, but we should wait the complete playtest to judge.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If non-combat abilities are being quarantined into skill feats, I hope monks get more skill feats than fighters do.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
If non-combat abilities are being quarantined into skill feats, I hope monks get more skill feats than fighters do.

So far it does seem that Monk will retain some of their jumping abilities at least.

Also we havent really seen if any of the class or ancestry feats give any options for utility either, so its going to be a long wait until playtest to find out.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Diego Rossi wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

Since monks use kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. could we re-name all of their abilities to not use the word "fist"? They're all unarmed strikes, so instead of powerful fist, can we have powerful strike, and have stunning strike instead of stunning fist, etc?

Have to agree that stunning fist doesn't seem very stunning anymore. Either re-name it or make stunning a more likely result. Having it only happen on a crit hit and a crit save failure is pretty unlikely.

I suspect you guys are missing a point: this isn't PF1, you aren't competing with spellcaster with spells that can stun people easily.

From what we have heard of color spray it probably stun a target only on a critical failure.
Apparently, most spells will end up applying lesser conditions on normal failures.
So downgrading most of the Save or Suck effects from spells require to do the same for the abilities that can be used every round forever.

Without seeing a more extended selection of spells it is difficult to judge, but we should wait the complete playtest to judge.

I don't have a problem with stunning fist actually "stunning" the target very rarely. I have a problem with it having a 2 action cost, which from what we have seen so far will almost never justify its cost, if you can do so much more with those 2 actions instead.

I would much rather have a 1 action stunning fist that only triggers on critical hits than the current iteration, since as it stands (and of course we will not have the full picture until the full playtest release) it is not only a once-in-a-blue-moon proc effect but also a once-in-a-blue-moon situation that would justify wasting 2 actions for using it.

Sure you can move and then use one stunning fist on the target caster, with a somewhat decent chance of stupefying or at least getting the target flat footed (still has to hit, damage and then the DC to at least fail). But why not instead punch the caster 3 times after your move? And yes, the hp pools for everyone got quite a bit larger in PF2, so a kill might be unlikely but it should still at least setup a kill, which the puny debuff is most likely not, since even a rogue has a much better time setting up flat footed for himself as he had in PF1 (numerous feats, no default AoO, Skill feat god so he can grab some in acrobatics etc.).

Also, do we even know yet what stunned does in PF2? I couldn't find any info on it in the "Conditions" blog.


I am wondering if the "Dimensional Agility" featline would be available to the game at playtest, and if other classes can get a option to get similar abilities... in PF1 my go-to enabler was 3 levels of horizon walker to get that 3+wis goodness.

Exo-Guardians

As a fan of the Unchained Monk after I discovered the glory that is making every spellcaster within 230 feet uncomfortable (High chance of an adamantine clockwork fist to the face). I like what I see. I'm a tad confused about why monks are not proficient with weapons tagged for monks, but eh, I'll see if it sucks in the playtest.

I do wonder if Style Strike will make a return, it was a fun aspect of Unchained Monk for me.


MER-c wrote:
I do wonder if Style Strike will make a return, it was a fun aspect of Unchained Monk for me.

From what people wrote who actually played the new monk, stuff like Flying Kick is now a class feat. So yeah, at least this one is back (which was arguably the best one anyway). Most likely, you will see the others as well, but you will have to pay for those with class feats.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Subutai1 wrote:
MER-c wrote:
I do wonder if Style Strike will make a return, it was a fun aspect of Unchained Monk for me.
From what people wrote who actually played the new monk, stuff like Flying Kick is now a class feat. So yeah, at least this one is back (which was arguably the best one anyway). Most likely, you will see the others as well, but you will have to pay for those with class feats.

As they were an active component of levelling up, you were pretty much doing the same thing there anyway, except you weren't given the option of spending that level up on something that wasn't a Style Strike.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
mrianmerry wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:
MER-c wrote:
I do wonder if Style Strike will make a return, it was a fun aspect of Unchained Monk for me.
From what people wrote who actually played the new monk, stuff like Flying Kick is now a class feat. So yeah, at least this one is back (which was arguably the best one anyway). Most likely, you will see the others as well, but you will have to pay for those with class feats.
As they were an active component of levelling up, you were pretty much doing the same thing there anyway, except you weren't given the option of spending that level up on something that wasn't a Style Strike.

That arguement is fine for basically any other class and its transition between PF1 and PF2. But the unchained monk already got a good amount of bonus feats, plus Ki powers, plus static class features each level just to keep up with other classes. Now in PF2, all of those features share the same resource, which is limited to 10 in total, whereas with PF1 unchained monk it was 6 bonus feats, 9 Ki Powers and a ton of class features that seem to miss right now as inherent abilities and instead can be bought via class feats (Stunning fist, Evasion, Ki Strike, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Style Strike, Improved Evasion, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Flawless Mind, Perfect Self).

So yeah, sure you have even more options now on how to build your monk, but no matter how you build him, you end up with less than half the features the PF1 unchained monk had, which leaves a bad taste behind.

But again, without the full picture we won't know how this will really pan out. The unchained monk was a great way to fix the basic PF1 monk, which was one of the worst classes for more than one reason. And releasing the unchained monk showed that Paizo felt the same way. I just hope this time around the monk will be good to go from the get go and still be versatile and interesting to play and not a one-trick pony forced to specialize into one corner, because of the lack of resources that the PF1 basic monk was plagued with.


I feel like the pathfinder 1 monk had a lot of bells and whistles. Like they got some monk ability about every level. Its just not all of the abilities they got where terribly useful. What they have show here seems pretty useful. In fact I think it is actually looking like a Very strong class with the best saves all around good hp ok AC what looks like good damage and then they still have ki powers and other things going on. They seem stacked pretty heavily to me.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I feel like the pathfinder 1 monk had a lot of bells and whistles. Like they got some monk ability about every level. Its just not all of the abilities they got where terribly useful. What they have show here seems pretty useful. In fact I think it is actually looking like a Very strong class with the best saves all around good hp ok AC what looks like good damage and then they still have ki powers and other things going on. They seem stacked pretty heavily to me.

My concern is not about the power level of the new monk. I'm sure the new monk will be on par with other non caster classes, be it damage, survivability, utility etc and might even be the most mobile of all those classes considering what we know so far and of course depending on our build. What I'm concerned about is that those bells and whistles you are talking about, which made the monk interesting outside his basic function, may now still be available, but locked behind those precious class feats, that you would much rather spend for making your class functional or useful.


I think they will still be getting a decent amount of class abilities on top of the class feats that is my thought anyways. Its really hard to tell at this point but The way I've been putting it together so far I think some classes may start out with less but gain more overall throughout the leveling process.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Subutai1 wrote:
I don't have a problem with stunning fist actually "stunning" the target very rarely. I have a problem with it having a 2 action cost, which from what we have seen so far will almost never justify its cost, if you can do so much more with those 2 actions instead.

Would you rather attack twice at -2, -6, or three times at -4, -8, -8? Is hard to tell, both options feel almost as good.

Well... The first option (-2, -6) is pretty much what the Monk gets after flat-footing a target with Stunning Fist and following with a Flurry of Blows.
And on top of that you could Stupefy, helping your caster friends affect/crit the target with spells that ask for mental DCs* (not just reducing casting power if the target is a caster), or even stun it (wich pretty sure means they lose their turn entirely)...
Not to mention the Flat-Footing will also affect your Martial Friends and all their Attacks.

Stunning Fist at 2 Actions is juts fine. It's a choice, as it should be. At 1 Action it would be a no brainer. Why would you EVER normal attack instead?

The Stunning part (even if its in the name of the skill) is just the cherry on top if it happens. You are using Stunning Fist mostly to Flat-Foot your target for the rest of your party attacks (including yours), with Stupefy and Stun being nice extras.

If you had to move once to reach the target and have to choose between a 0 Attack (2 Actions) that can Flat-Foot/Stupefy/Stun or 3 attacks (Normal + Flurry of Blows) at 0, -4, -8... Well, it will depend on the situation and the initiative order; or maybe in this scenario is better to not use Stunning Fist... But that's great. The fact that you don't do the same every-single-round (like all characters did in PF1).

*Does Stupefied reduce Will Saves? Condition reads: "imposes a conditional penalty on spell DCs as well as on Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks."


Kaemy wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:
I don't have a problem with stunning fist actually "stunning" the target very rarely. I have a problem with it having a 2 action cost, which from what we have seen so far will almost never justify its cost, if you can do so much more with those 2 actions instead.

You are using Stunning Fist mostly to Flat-Foot your target for the rest of your party attacks (including yours), with Stupefy and Stun being nice extras.

If it was reliable at that, then 2 actions would be justified and I would not have such an issue with it. As it stands, the targets you would like to affect by it will be a target that does not die after getting hit 3 times, so mostly targets that are at least your level or higher. And those targets, aside from casters obviously, you will have a <50% chance of even flat footing, considering the hoops you have to jump through.

Also, don't forget you get your target flat footed by flanking it as well and in PF2 flanking someone is much easier than it used to be in PF1. And yes, targets that are worth getting hit with stunning fist are the targets that will most likely be flanked.

So for such a minor debuff, the unreliablity just doesn't seem to be worth it for the investment of 2 actions per use and a feat.


Remember Subutai1 that the attack you are giving up in exchange for the possibility to Flat-Foot/Stupefy/Stun the target, on a "Full Round Action" turn, is one made at -8 (at best, -10 if you are a Monk using a non-agile weapon).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?

My question is "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?"

'look a creature flying 15' in the air... maybe I can spend 2 actions to high jump and HOPE I roll high enough to hit it with a punch [and not crit fail and look silly damaging myself]. Or I can just meditate until people with ACTUAL ranged attacks finish it off...'

'Oh look, a diseased/poisonous/ect creature... Well I either punch it, since master never trained me up to wizard weapon standards, or I go back to meditating...'

ect...

Or my master did train me, and my takibg the weapon proficiency represents that training.

Or the archers miss, hoping they would’ve hit, and wondering why the mobile monk wasn’t brave enough.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kaemy wrote:
Remember Subutai1 that the attack you are giving up in exchange for the possibility to Flat-Foot/Stupefy/Stun the target, on a "Full Round Action" turn, is one made at -8 (at best, -10 if you are a Monk using a non-agile weapon).

And if they are already flanked or otherwise flat-footed, that just increases your chances of scoring a crit on the attack and a chance to stun.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Subutai1 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

Since monks use kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. could we re-name all of their abilities to not use the word "fist"? They're all unarmed strikes, so instead of powerful fist, can we have powerful strike, and have stunning strike instead of stunning fist, etc?

Have to agree that stunning fist doesn't seem very stunning anymore. Either re-name it or make stunning a more likely result. Having it only happen on a crit hit and a crit save failure is pretty unlikely.

I suspect you guys are missing a point: this isn't PF1, you aren't competing with spellcaster with spells that can stun people easily.

From what we have heard of color spray it probably stun a target only on a critical failure.
Apparently, most spells will end up applying lesser conditions on normal failures.
So downgrading most of the Save or Suck effects from spells require to do the same for the abilities that can be used every round forever.

Without seeing a more extended selection of spells it is difficult to judge, but we should wait the complete playtest to judge.

I don't have a problem with stunning fist actually "stunning" the target very rarely. I have a problem with it having a 2 action cost, which from what we have seen so far will almost never justify its cost, if you can do so much more with those 2 actions instead.

I would much rather have a 1 action stunning fist that only triggers on critical hits than the current iteration, since as it stands (and of course we will not have the full picture until the full playtest release) it is not only a once-in-a-blue-moon proc effect but also a once-in-a-blue-moon situation that would justify wasting 2 actions for using it.

Sure you can move and then use one stunning fist on the target caster, with a somewhat decent chance of stupefying or at least getting the target flat footed (still has to hit, damage and then the DC to at least fail). But why not instead punch the caster 3 times after your move?...

Let's make a little test.

The wizard get a cantrip with a range of touch, that increase its damage when he get a new level of spells and that render its target flat footed if the target fail a save, with added effects if the target fail critically.
You think that people will say that it is weak?
Or we will see people crying that, as usual, the wizard get overpowered attacks?

I think that we will see more of the latter comments than of the former.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
SilverliteSword wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
On key abilities: I wonder what they will do for the Paladin. The obvious key stats are strength and charisma, but if someone wants to make a dex based paladin they need that. But dex and strength only feels wrong. Then again, I would have said not including wisdom as an option for the monk would have felt wrong before the preview.
I feel like this is a thing you can manage via archetypes. Just like how there were archetypes in PF1 that changed a casting attribute (e.g. eldritch scion magus) if you made a PF2 Paladin archetype like the Virtuoso Bravo, you could just change the key attribute to dex. Likewise if you wanted to do an especially mystic monk (like the serpent fire adept) you could change the key attribute to wisdom.
Another thing to bear in mind is that just because it's not the key stat for the class that doesn't mean you don't need it. Monks shouldn't dump WIS just because the key stat is STR or DEX.

Unless of course you don't care about Ki Powers, in which case the only (non-skill) thing Wis gives you (as far as we've seen) is Will Save and Perception. Good things to have of course, but can be worked around.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
John Lynch 106 wrote:
If non-combat abilities are being quarantined into skill feats, I hope monks get more skill feats than fighters do.

I don't see any reason why monks should be more useful and powerful out of combat than fighters. In fact, I see plenty of reason why they shouldn't, unless you're okay with monks being less useful and powerful in combat than fighters (I highly doubt you are).

This sort of thinking leads directly to (possibly unintentional) underpowering of the fighter compared with every other class. Here's a fictitious example of how that design works. Let's see what the monk needs.

  • Monks definitely need all good saves. After all, high saves are a core part of the monk, so monks need the best possible saves.*
  • Monks also need to have high AC, able to match high-defense classes like fighter and paladin.**
  • For 2e, monks definitely need to be accurate and highly damaging (like the unchained monk). Otherwise, we'd have terrible design like flurry of misses or flurry of tickles.** That's unfair design, since combat is a very important part of the game, and monks are primary damage dealers. They need to have parity with other damage dealers, like fighter.
  • It's very important for monks to have easily accessible and strong mystical powers, with plenty of uses, since this is a core version of the class.**
  • It's also unfair and thematically stupid for monks not to start trained in weapons. It makes wizards better at weapons than them.**
  • And finally, monks definitely need more skills than fighters, since they had +2 SP/lvl relative to fighters in PF1e.

    You end up with (compared to fighter):

  • Higher saves
  • Equal HP
  • Equal AC (higher TAC)
  • Equal damage with unarmed or armed styles
  • Unmatched mystical powers
  • More skills and out of combat utility, in a system where skills are supposed to be much more powerful than they were in PF1e.

    Maybe we could balance some of these with fighter combos, but those are already counterbalanced by monk stances.

    You can of course repeat this exercise with pretty much any martial class. It's not unique to monk. Basically, the fighter gets used as the baseline of "I can't be functionally worse than this," but then you get extra goodies on top. This was the common situation at the beginning of PF1e. I don't like that design, and I don't think Paizo does either. Hopefully they avoid it this go around, and provide fighter with useful and fun things to do both in and out of combat. This probably means evening out fighter skills with many other classes, including the monk. We'll see when the playtest comes out.
    --
    *see: Forum furor over unchained monk
    ** see: This thread.

  • Liberty's Edge

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I like that the Monk can finally use his two strengths (multiple attacks and mobility) within the same round
    And that he keeps his trademark awesome saves too

    I hope untrained with simple weapons carries a light penalty

    For those worried about STR Monk, I guess they might use more damaging weapons than their DEX colleagues (and I hope DEX to damage is a possibility for all Classes)


    7 people marked this as a favorite.

    @CheBurn: A lot of your arguments are based on legacy concerns, not good class design.

    Legacy concerns will be forgotten. They will be ignored. If the game functions well, they will fade away.

    The "Flurry of Misses" comments in this thread are an example of that. People don't know how enemies are blocked, don't know how attack boosts will be handled, etc. They just see numbers and assume things.

    Same thing with the "low Will saves of the UnMonk". Yeah, right. Like CRB Monks had extra points to put into WIS, or extra feats to go for Iron Will. UnMonks have as-high Will saves as CRB Monks, but people get hung up on the class table rather than what actually matters – praxis.

    Again, it's tantamount to saying Wizards had few skill ranks per level because they had 2 + INT.

    There is, however, a case to be made with the Fighter comparison. If the Monk is "Fighter but unarmored", then it's an arms race against the Fighter, as they attempt to achieve the same goal – "hit hard, don't get hit too hard, have some out-of-combat utility."

    I believe there are some acceptable combat differences between Fighter/Monk:

    - Fighter should have better sticking power than Monk.
    - Monk should be better at disengagement than Fighter.
    - Fighter should have more on-demand AC (see: Raise Shields and such).
    - Monk should have more TAC.
    - Fighter should have better Fortitude saves.
    - Monk should have better Will saves.

    See the problem here? Everything I mentioned is in-combat tuning. It's a all measure of outputs, rather than different standalone concepts.

    That's why I argue that adding the mystic element baseline to the Monk is better for the overall identity of the Monk – like a Fighter, but has an expendable pool of supernatural powers.

    I personally would make unarmed something Fighters can be good at too, and focus more on how Mysticism allows the Monk to excel in combat to separate their identities further.

    So, to summarize: I'm not concerned about people clamoring about legacy issues. I'm worried about, in this edition, how will the Monk be differentiated from the Fighter.


    Elorebaen wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?

    My question is "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?"

    'look a creature flying 15' in the air... maybe I can spend 2 actions to high jump and HOPE I roll high enough to hit it with a punch [and not crit fail and look silly damaging myself]. Or I can just meditate until people with ACTUAL ranged attacks finish it off...'

    'Oh look, a diseased/poisonous/ect creature... Well I either punch it, since master never trained me up to wizard weapon standards, or I go back to meditating...'

    ect...

    Or my master did train me, and my takibg the weapon proficiency represents that training.

    Or the archers miss, hoping they would’ve hit, and wondering why the mobile monk wasn’t brave enough.

    #1 Look at the quotes once: "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?" As such, your first observation makes NO sense. The opportunity cost of NOT taking the feat can't be taking the feat.

    #2 EVERY other class at level 1 without picking any special feat can attack the creature without having to save... except the monk as they aren't trained in ANY weapon by default. So it's, AS I STATED, a choice: to make multiple saves and attack or not attack and hope your party can deal with it on their own. The same thing can be said of a creature that damaged on contact: is the monk brave or stupid for making 4 attacks on a slime that deals 1d6 acid per attack when he's first level? Even the wizard can attack with their staff without taking damage/saves.


    The Raven Black wrote:
    I hope untrained with simple weapons carries a light penalty

    It's -2, just like any other untrained check. I guess the question is if you forese your monk using a weapon, you're going to want the non-proficiency benefit of monastic weapons anyway, so why not just take it?

    Like just giving the monk trained proficiency in some weapons isn't going to help much if all your class features which require or enhance unarmed strikes don't interact with weapon attacks. So you'll want the 2nd part of the feat anyway.


    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    The Raven Black wrote:
    I hope untrained with simple weapons carries a light penalty

    It's -2, just like any other untrained check. I guess the question is if you forese your monk using a weapon, you're going to want the non-proficiency benefit of monastic weapons anyway, so why not just take it?

    Like just giving the monk trained proficiency in some weapons isn't going to help much if all your class features which require or enhance unarmed strikes don't interact with weapon attacks. So you'll want the 2nd part of the feat anyway.

    I can't see how/why a monk would NOT want/expect to use a weapon at some point. Needing a ranged weapon and/or creatures that are hazardous to touch seem like they'd come up often enough that you'd want them even if your class features don't work with them: an attack without your features is far superior to one you can't make because you can't reach the target or the target might damage/inflict a bad condition. Even a wizard can toss a dagger if they are out or ranged spells at a flying target without taking a -2 to the roll for non-proficiency...


    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    The Raven Black wrote:
    I hope untrained with simple weapons carries a light penalty

    It's -2, just like any other untrained check. I guess the question is if you forese your monk using a weapon, you're going to want the non-proficiency benefit of monastic weapons anyway, so why not just take it?

    Like just giving the monk trained proficiency in some weapons isn't going to help much if all your class features which require or enhance unarmed strikes don't interact with weapon attacks. So you'll want the 2nd part of the feat anyway.

    Seen them do this in older editions a lot! Might not get stunning fist through it (and you cna still do it while carrying a weapon anyways), but a proper weapon is way better than punching for DPT at low levels.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    You know, that would be a good question. Is the Monk proficient with the sling? Is Throw Anything still a feat?


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    @Secret Wizard I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Most or all of that "design" are indeed "legacy" design issues, and most of them should not be transferred to the new edition. There is a lot of agitation on the forums, however, advocating for keeping the status quo, however, and this risks dragging legacy issues into the new edition.

    There is a potential for meaningful differentiation between a fighter and a monk, and for the monk to occupy a fun and unique design space. I can think of a number of ways you could differentiate the two, and the set you described seems like one reasonable version.

    Comments from those who have done internal playtesting (Ssalarn and Mark Seifter, both of whom seem to be very honest posters) indicate that the monk does good damage, and can be defensively strong, with specifics depending on how the monk is built. That's the first test I think any class has to pass, and it sounds like they're accomplishing it.

    The second test is the "does this feel like a monk" test. We have an unarmored combatant, who is mobile, deals good damage, and has good defenses. This combatant has a variety of combat stances, flying kicks, special punches, the ability to run up vertical walls, deflect arrows, and even has the option to have other fully mystical abilities. By default, the combatant uses unarmed strikes, and is very effective with them; he or she can also use monastic weapons from the first level, with some character resource investment.

    To me, this sounds very much like a "monk," and very different from the fighter preview we saw, which makes me happy. Out of combat, I'm hoping there is similar distinction between the two classes, but that the distinction is not just "monk gets a big advantage, and fighter gets nothing" that my original comment was based on.

    I personally think that adding mystical abilities to the baseline of the monk goes against the overall "modular" design that PF2e seems to be embracing. I do think that monk having access to mystical abilities that (for example) fighter lacks is a great distinction, and one I wholeheartedly support. That being said, I myself would be more likely to play the class if I have the option to avoid ki powers and spellpoints, and I am happy that seems to be the default.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    The Raven Black wrote:

    I hope untrained with simple weapons carries a light penalty

    For those worried about STR Monk, I guess they might use more damaging weapons than their DEX colleagues (and I hope DEX to damage is a possibility for all Classes)

    Untrained is always a -2 (for Diplomacy, Weapons, Unarmed or whatever you are Untrained with). Imo is a perfect penalty. The old -4 was too big. Now you could consider using something you aren't trained with, specially since the first attack seems to have more accuracy overall than it did in PF1.

    And for DEX to Damage... I'm not sure... Is a slippery slope... STR only gives damage (and Bulk, but many players ignore it entirely).
    DEX already gives AC and Reflex, arguably the most important things in the game along with Damage and Hit Points.

    I know it makes sense to have DEX>Damage because how accurate your hits are, and its cool building a character that way... But I'm not sure it's very healthy for the game itself. 24 STR nets you +7 Damage. 24 DEX would net you the same +7 Damage, and +7 Freaking AC (no joke) AND +7 to Reflex Saves on a world where Fireballs can critically hit you.

    I love DEX to Damage, but I hope they don't include it.
    That being said, I think someone already mentioned Rogues getting it?

    Liberty's Edge

    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    If DEX to damage works only for low-damage melee weapons then STR gets monopoly on high-damage weapons and ranged weapons. That combined with needing a feat for DEX to damage sounds enough for balance IMO

    I do not think DEX to damage should be taboo, nor exclusive to a Class


    Hm... You may be right, if its exclusive to low Hit Dice weapons, specially how the Magic Weapons scale in PF2 by adding dices...

    A 3d6+7 Rapier +3 (DEX) vs a 3d12+7 Greatsword +3 (STR) doesn't feel as bad.
    Still, you always want to be REALLY smart about when and how you allow DEX to Damage... if at all.
    The AC on its own (even without taking account Reflex or Initiative being gone) its already a great bonus.


    PF2 is going to be more about "rolling lots of dice" for damage not "adding lots of static modifiers for damage.

    Like a DPR character towards the ends of their career is more likely to be doing 6d12+10 than 1d8+47.

    Grand Lodge

    Blog: Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons.

    This does not say Monks aren't proficient with any weapons. It just lets them use Flurry of Blows with the weapons.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Aristophanes wrote:

    Blog: Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons.

    This does not say Monks aren't proficient with any weapons. It just lets them use Flurry of Blows with the weapons.

    "Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks" From the first paragraph.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Aristophanes wrote:

    Blog: Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons.

    This does not say Monks aren't proficient with any weapons. It just lets them use Flurry of Blows with the weapons.

    Alas, you missed this line earlier in the blog:

    blog wrote:


    Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks.

    I must say that I have no problem with monastic training, I just wish monks were proficient with at least simple monk weapons from the beginning.

    Edit: Ninjaed!

    Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Diego Rossi wrote:
    JoelF847 wrote:

    Since monks use kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. could we re-name all of their abilities to not use the word "fist"? They're all unarmed strikes, so instead of powerful fist, can we have powerful strike, and have stunning strike instead of stunning fist, etc?

    Have to agree that stunning fist doesn't seem very stunning anymore. Either re-name it or make stunning a more likely result. Having it only happen on a crit hit and a crit save failure is pretty unlikely.

    I suspect you guys are missing a point: this isn't PF1, you aren't competing with spellcaster with spells that can stun people easily.

    From what we have heard of color spray it probably stun a target only on a critical failure.
    Apparently, most spells will end up applying lesser conditions on normal failures.
    So downgrading most of the Save or Suck effects from spells require to do the same for the abilities that can be used every round forever.

    Without seeing a more extended selection of spells it is difficult to judge, but we should wait the complete playtest to judge.

    I'm in no way comparing stunning fist to anything, spellcasters or not. I'm talking about the name of the power. I think it's poor to name a power for something that only happens on a critical hit. That would be like having fireball not cause fire damage unless it's a crit, and otherwise just warms targets up and give them heatstroke. Or to use your color spray example, have it not create a spray of colors in a cone unless you crit them. It's not calling stunning spray. If it were, that would be a much better comparison to stunning fist only rarely stunning.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    JoelF847 wrote:
    I'm in no way comparing stunning fist to anything, spellcasters or not. I'm talking about the name of the power. I think it's poor to name a power for something that only happens on a critical hit. That would be like having fireball not cause fire damage unless it's a crit, and otherwise just warms targets up and give them heatstroke. Or to use your color spray example, have it not create a spray of colors in a cone unless you crit them. It's not calling stunning spray. If it were, that would be a much better comparison to stunning fist only rarely stunning.

    Critical hits are far easier to get in 2E given either a natural 20 that beats their AC or getting 10 over their AC will work. With said crits making the failure degree get one worse, all one needs is a regular fail to get the Stun.

    Doesn't seem like it will be all that bad to stun someone.

    Grand Lodge

    Benjamin Medrano wrote:
    Aristophanes wrote:

    Blog: Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons.

    This does not say Monks aren't proficient with any weapons. It just lets them use Flurry of Blows with the weapons.

    Alas, you missed this line earlier in the blog:

    blog wrote:


    Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks.

    I must say that I have no problem with monastic training, I just wish monks were proficient with at least simple monk weapons from the beginning.

    Edit: Ninjaed!

    Yeah, I missed that part. I actually noticed it about 3 seconds after I sent that post, but I couldn't stop it because it was at that exact moment when they started their "scheduled maintenance". lol


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    The Raven Black wrote:

    If DEX to damage works only for low-damage melee weapons then STR gets monopoly on high-damage weapons and ranged weapons. That combined with needing a feat for DEX to damage sounds enough for balance IMO

    I do not think DEX to damage should be taboo, nor exclusive to a Class

    What's the point in DEX-to-damage in a system with 4 skill ups, other than opening the doors to rampant optimization?

    Other than saying "you'll be worse at mental skills because you must go STR"?


    For everyone complaining that Monks aren't by default trained in Martial Weapons, think of it this way:

    They probably get around the same number of Trained Skills (total) than the other classes... If you want to go the weapon route, you can get one of your Lv1 extra Skill Ranks (Class+INT at Lv1) into Weapon Proficiency if you want to use weapons.

    But if you don't want to use weapons, for those other monks, it's kinda like getting an extra skill somewhere else (because that "default Lv0 skill" that wasn't placed in Weapon Proficiency was probably placed somewhere else).

    Me, personally, I would keep them like they were presented here (untrained), but I would also make Wizards to be untrained by default (the -2 is very fitting for a Wizard that doesn't want to specialize/train with weapons). But who knows? Maybe that's already the case, maybe Wizards are also Untrained with Weapons by default and the Iconic Wizard that people have been playing in the Playtests just happened to have invested one of his Lv1 Skill Ranks in Weapon Proficiency.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Mewzard wrote:
    JoelF847 wrote:
    I'm in no way comparing stunning fist to anything, spellcasters or not. I'm talking about the name of the power. I think it's poor to name a power for something that only happens on a critical hit. That would be like having fireball not cause fire damage unless it's a crit, and otherwise just warms targets up and give them heatstroke. Or to use your color spray example, have it not create a spray of colors in a cone unless you crit them. It's not calling stunning spray. If it were, that would be a much better comparison to stunning fist only rarely stunning.

    Critical hits are far easier to get in 2E given either a natural 20 that beats their AC or getting 10 over their AC will work. With said crits making the failure degree get one worse, all one needs is a regular fail to get the Stun.

    Doesn't seem like it will be all that bad to stun someone.

    Except you have to Crit and they have to critically fail to get stunned. Even if you're good enough that you crit, say, 20% of the time, and they crit fail also 20% of the time, that's still only 4% that you stun with it. And I'm guessing that the chances won't be that high, unless you're fighting something that's way lower level than you, based on what little we know about monster stats from the stat blog, which makes it look like you're seeing only about a 1% or less chance to stun, barring things we don't know about yet, which might put it closer to 2%, but that's still not a lot.

    651 to 700 of 861 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>
    Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Monk Class Preview All Messageboards