Wizard Class Preview

Monday, May 21, 2018

With Paizocon getting underway in just a few days, we wanted to round out our previews by looking at the final class that you will be able to play at the show. So, without further delay, it's time to look at the wizard!

Wizard Features

If you are building a wizard, everything starts with your key ability, Intelligence. Having a high Intelligence gives you a boost to the DCs of your spells, and it gives you more skill choices at 1st level.

At 1st level, you begin play with a spellbook containing 10 cantrips and eight 1st-level spells, giving you a wide variety of spells to draw upon when you prepare your magic each morning. Starting out, you can prepare four cantrips and two 1st-level spells each day. In addition, you also select your arcane school at 1st level, which grants you one extra spell slot of each level that you can use only to prepare a spell from your chosen school. You can compare this to the cleric, who doesn't get extra spell slots, but instead gets a narrow ability to cast extra heal or harm spells. Your school also grants you a school power that you can cast using a pool of Spell Points. Take a look at the nifty power you can pick up from choosing divination as your school. (Remember, that [[A]] code you see indicates that this is an action, and it will be a snazzy icon in the final rulebook!)

DIVINER'S SIGHT

Concentrate, Divination, Fortune

Casting [[A]] Verbal Casting

Range 30 feet; Targets one willing living creature

Duration end of your next turn or until dismissed

You glimpse into the target's future. Roll a d20. When the target attempts a Perception check, saving throw, or skill check, it can use the number you rolled instead of rolling, and the spell is dismissed. Casting it again dismisses any active diviner's sight.

Even if you don't roll so great, it might still help avoid a critical failure on a vital saving throw.

You can forgo selecting an arcane school, instead choosing to be a universalist. This grants you a bonus wizard feat and extra uses of your arcane focus.

Speaking of which, all wizards gain the ability to place some of their power into a designated item called an arcane focus. You can drain the power from that focus once per day to cast any one spell that you have already cast without spending another spell slot. Universalists get to use this ability once for each level of spell that they can cast!

As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases. They start as trained, but rise to the rank of legendary at 19th level.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Wizard Feats

Wizards have never had too many class features to choose from to help distinguish them from one another, so when it came time to design feats for the wizard, it was a clear opportunity to add some variety to the class.

Lets start out with a few classic concepts. At 1st level, you can pick up a feat that allows you to spend your reaction to counterspell any spell someone else casts as long as you currently have that spell prepared. If that isn't to your taste, you can take a wizard feat to recruit a familiar instead. Every day, you can select a pair of abilities to give this loyal companion, some of which grant you boons as well. At high levels, your familiar can even grant you an additional spell slot, as long as it is 3 levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. At 8th level you can select from a series of feats that enhance the power of your arcane school, increasing your pool of Spell Points and granting you an extra spell you can cast using that pool. One of my favorites is the necromantic power called life siphon, which lets you draw some of the magic from a non-cantrip necromancy spell you cast to regain 1d8 Hit Points per level of the spell.

Not surprisingly, the wizard also has a lot of feats to choose from that modify the spells that you cast. While many of these metamagic feats will be familiar to veterans of the game, allowing you to extend the reach or widen the area of a spell, for example, others are new. Conceal Spell lets you add an action to a spell as you cast it to hide the fact that you are casting. Focus Conservation is an action you can add to any spell that you cast by draining your arcane focus, and it lets you drain your arcane focus again the next round, casting another spell as long as it is 2 levels lower than the spell you just cast. Better still, you can keep using this feat as long as you have lower-level spells to cast. For example, if you start out draining your focus to cast cone of cold (a 5th-level spell dealing a wicked 11d6 cold damage to all your enemies), you could follow it up next round with a fireball. If you use the feat again, you could drain focus again on the following round, casting any 1st-level spell you had already cast.

As a wizard rises to the highest levels of power, their feats grant them more and more options when determining how to best utilize their spells. Effortless Concentration gives you a free action at the start of each round to concentrate on a spell you have cast, freeing you up to use all 3 actions normally. Superior Focus gives you another use of your arcane focus. Quick Preparation lets you swap out spells you have already prepared in just 10 minutes. At 20th level, you can pick Spell Combination, which lets you combine two spells into one terrifying attack that you can unleash on one unfortunate foe.

Spells

One of the biggest ways you can customize your wizard is in your spell selection, so it's probably worth looking at a few signature wizard spells to see how they work. Let's start with one of the most iconic spells of them all.

MAGIC MISSILE SPELL 1

Evocation, Force

Casting [[A]] Verbal Casting or more

Range 120 feet; Targets one creature

You send a dart of force streaking toward a creature that you can see. It automatically hits and deals 1d4+1 force damage. When Casting this Spell, you can increase the casting by a Material Casting action, a Somatic Casting action, or both. For each component you add, increase the number of missiles you shoot by one. You choose the target for each missile individually.

Heightened (+2) You shoot one additional missile with each action you spend.

Magic missile shows off a couple of interesting options in the wizard's arsenal. Casting a spell can be done in a number of ways using a variable number of actions. While most of the time this is through metamagic feats, it can also come from the spell itself. Adding casting actions to magic missile gives you more missiles to throw. In addition, a wide variety of spells can be prepared using a higher-level spell slot, giving you a better effect without having to refer to an entirely different spell. (You can find out more about that in the All About Spells blog.) That means you can prepare magic missile as a 9th-level spell and spend three actions casting it for 15 missiles!

Another important aspect of picking spells for your wizard is to balance what saving throws they allow and what effects you can get depending on the results of the save. For that, let's take a look at a spell that might instantly kill a foe.

PHANTASMAL KILLER SPELL 4

Death, Emotion, Fear, Illusion, Mental

Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting

Range 120 feet; Targets one living creature

You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the target. Only the spell's target can see the killer, though you can see the vague shape of the illusion as it races forth to attack. The effect of the killer is based on the outcome of the target's Will saving throw.

Success The target is frightened 1.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.

Failure The target takes 8d6 mental damage and is frightened 2.

Critical Failure The target is so afraid it might instantly die. It must attempt a Fortitude saving throw; if the target fails, it is reduced to 0 Hit Points and dies. On a successful Fortitude save, the target still takes 12d6 mental damage, is fleeing until the end of its next turn, and is frightened 4.

Heightened (+1) The damage on a failure increases by 2d6 and on a critical failure by 3d6.

This spell is perfect for removing a lower-level foe from a fight, but it has the chance of greatly hampering a higher-level foe as well. The frightened condition reduces by 1 each turn, but it applies a penalty to almost all of your checks and rolls until it does. You will find interesting choices like these throughout the arcane spell list. While most will be familiar to a Pathfinder veteran, there are a lot of new spells to explore as well, from grim tendril to chromatic wall, so your wizard will be ready for anything.

Well, that wraps up our look at the wizard. If you want to give this class (or the alchemist, cleric, fighter, paladin, or rogue) a try, make sure to stop by PaizoCon (this weekend), the UK Games Expo (early June), or Origins (mid-June), as we'll be running demos during all three conventions!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

Note: Due to PaizoCon, there will not be a Pathfinder Playtest Blog on Friday, May 25th or Monday, May 28th.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
That's kinda why I'm worried about counterspelling being good enough to use, honestly. Mechanics that revolve around ensuring nothing happens are just not very fun. The Counterspell Wizard in the 5e campaign I used to be in was so bored with his job that he switched to a Fighter.
Unless most enemies also have Counterspell, it being a Reaction mostly solves this, as you have your own action to actually do things with.

Ah, yes, no countering a counterspell (well, from the original caster), unlike 5th Ed.


^ Deja vu...
^ Deja vu...
^ Deja vu...


The one piece of text that I don't understand;

"either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level"

If I level to 4th, aren't my "highest level" and "new level" both considered 4th level? Been scratching my head on this one.


If you get a new highest level, I presume that's what's meant by "new level". So at level 7, when you get 4th level spells, you get 2 of those. Then at level 8, you get another 1 to cast, totalling 3.


UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:

The one piece of text that I don't understand;

"either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level"

If I level to 4th, aren't my "highest level" and "new level" both considered 4th level? Been scratching my head on this one.

Is referring to spell slots, spell progression is going to look like this

Lv Gain
1 - 2 1st slots
2 - 1 1st slot
3 - 2 2nd slots
4 - 1 2nd slot
5 - 2 3rd slots
6 - 1 3rd slot
7 - 2 4rd slots
8 - 1 4rd slot
9 - 2 5th slots
10 - 1 5th slot
11 - 2 6th slots
12 - 1 6th slot
13 - 2 7th slots
14 - 1 7th slot
15 - 2 8th slots
16 - 1 8th slot
17 - 2 9th slots
18 - 1 9th slot
19 - Here you gain nothing because reasons
20 - Here you gain nothing again


edduardco wrote:
UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:

The one piece of text that I don't understand;

"either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level"

If I level to 4th, aren't my "highest level" and "new level" both considered 4th level? Been scratching my head on this one.

Is referring to spell slots, spell progression is going to look like this

Lv Gain
1 - 2 1st slots
2 - 1 1st slot
3 - 2 2nd slots

Thanks for the clarification on that. I think I understand the meaning now.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
edduardco wrote:
UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:


19 - Here you gain nothing because reasons
20 - Here you gain nothing again

Just to be clear. You will be getting 10th level slots that can be used for heightening. You are not automatically getting spells to go in those slots.


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Malk_Content wrote:
edduardco wrote:


19 - Here you gain nothing because reasons
20 - Here you gain nothing again
Just to be clear. You will be getting 10th level slots that can be used for heightening. You are not automatically getting spells to go in those slots.

As far as I know that is not true, there are not 10th level slots, 10th level spells are feats usable once per day, and should not be called spells

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edduardco wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
edduardco wrote:


19 - Here you gain nothing because reasons
20 - Here you gain nothing again
Just to be clear. You will be getting 10th level slots that can be used for heightening. You are not automatically getting spells to go in those slots.
As far as I know that is not true, there are not 10th level slots, 10th level spells are feats usable once per day

No, you get a 10th level slot. You spend a feat to get it, but it is still a slot. You could heighten your lower level spells to 10th if you wanted to.


KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
edduardco wrote:


19 - Here you gain nothing because reasons
20 - Here you gain nothing again
Just to be clear. You will be getting 10th level slots that can be used for heightening. You are not automatically getting spells to go in those slots.
As far as I know that is not true, there are not 10th level slots, 10th level spells are feats usable once per day
No, you get a 10th level slot. You spend a feat to get it, but it is still a slot. You could heighten your lower level spells to 10th if you wanted to.

Quote or link?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Link: Mark describing a cleric preparing remove curse in their 10th level slot.


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While I don't see why you can't get the 10 level slot for free so you can heighten to it, I do think it is interesting how upset people seem to be that you have to now spend a feat to get a new level of spell we didn't have before, which can do things like Wish, make you the avatar of your God or a Kaiju, or cast a free spell once per minute.

(OK, you could Wish before, but is that really going to be your line in the sand, that Wish was an inalienable right for casters?)


KingOfAnything wrote:
Link: Mark describing a cleric preparing remove curse in their 10th level slot.

Fair enough, sadly that is a 20th level feat, I still think 10th level slots and spell should be gained automatically


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edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Link: Mark describing a cleric preparing remove curse in their 10th level slot.
Fair enough, sadly that is a 20th level feat, I still think 10th level slots and spell should be gained automatically

Disagree. Strongly. Miracle, Wish, and similar power level spells should not only be feat locked, but they should be narrative locked to the point where nearly no one qualifies ever. I'd personally prefer them be removed from the game entirely (No one should have, "I call my god up, and he sorts the issue for us." as a class feature) but I'll take locking them to level 20 only as a step in the right direction.


Captain Morgan wrote:

While I don't see why you can't get the 10 level slot for free so you can heighten to it, I do think it is interesting how upset people seem to be that you have to now spend a feat to get a new level of spell we didn't have before, which can do things like Wish, make you the avatar of your God or a Kaiju, or cast a free spell once per minute.

(OK, you could Wish before, but is that really going to be your line in the sand, that Wish was an inalienable right for casters?)

Yes, there is where I would draw a line.

Also I'm not interested in playing a game that breaks 18th levels of class progression for arbitrary reasons.


edduardco wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

While I don't see why you can't get the 10 level slot for free so you can heighten to it, I do think it is interesting how upset people seem to be that you have to now spend a feat to get a new level of spell we didn't have before, which can do things like Wish, make you the avatar of your God or a Kaiju, or cast a free spell once per minute.

(OK, you could Wish before, but is that really going to be your line in the sand, that Wish was an inalienable right for casters?)

Yes, there is where I would draw a line.

Also I'm not interested in playing a game that breaks 18th levels of class progression for arbitrary reasons.

Yeah, but PF1e also broke 18 levels of class progression, for largely arbitrary reasons. It's not like 19th level wizards got a 10th level spell slot, and the reason was even more arbitrary ('Well, there's never been 10th level spells in D&D' vs 'We're saving 10th level spells for the high end "break the game" spells like wish and miracle')


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Tholomyes wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

While I don't see why you can't get the 10 level slot for free so you can heighten to it, I do think it is interesting how upset people seem to be that you have to now spend a feat to get a new level of spell we didn't have before, which can do things like Wish, make you the avatar of your God or a Kaiju, or cast a free spell once per minute.

(OK, you could Wish before, but is that really going to be your line in the sand, that Wish was an inalienable right for casters?)

Yes, there is where I would draw a line.

Also I'm not interested in playing a game that breaks 18th levels of class progression for arbitrary reasons.

Yeah, but PF1e also broke 18 levels of class progression, for largely arbitrary reasons. It's not like 19th level wizards got a 10th level spell slot, and the reason was even more arbitrary ('Well, there's never been 10th level spells in D&D' vs 'We're saving 10th level spells for the high end "break the game" spells like wish and miracle')

That was a mistake in PF1 but at least they have the excuse of maintaining legacy. That PF2 is going to introduce 10th level spells and still break progression is just bad design IMO.


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I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.

That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?


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edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?

Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.

Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW

Sovereign Court

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edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.
Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW

You are misusing the term "feat tax". If it's worth it, it's not a tax, and wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.

Again, based on what? Have the spell effect been reveled? Have you seen the actual mechanics of those spells?

Paizo Employee

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edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.
Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW

It's only a feat tax in that you have to take it to get an ability you wouldn't otherwise get, which is true of all feats. In the commonly used parlance where a feat tax is "a feat you have to take to do the not-directly-related thing you actually want to do", it's not a feat tax. Not every caster is going to have 10th level spells; we know from the druid reveal at PaizoCon that 10th level spells are competing against other abilities that modify the caster's other class abilities or adjust their casting in some unique and equivalent way.


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Ssalarn wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.
Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW
It's only a feat tax in that you have to take it to get an ability you wouldn't otherwise get, which is true of all feats. In the commonly used parlance where a feat tax is "a feat you have to take to do the not-directly-related thing you actually want to do", it's not a feat tax. Not every caster is going to have 10th level spells; we know from the druid reveal at PaizoCon that 10th level spells are competing against other abilities that modify the caster's other class abilities or adjust their casting in some unique and equivalent way.

And that is precisely my issue with this, I think all casters should get 10th level spells automatically, instead of breaking 18th levels of progression and gated them behind a feat.


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edduardco wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.
Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW
It's only a feat tax in that you have to take it to get an ability you wouldn't otherwise get, which is true of all feats. In the commonly used parlance where a feat tax is "a feat you have to take to do the not-directly-related thing you actually want to do", it's not a feat tax. Not every caster is going to have 10th level spells; we know from the druid reveal at PaizoCon that 10th level spells are competing against other abilities that modify the caster's other class abilities or adjust their casting in some unique and equivalent way.
And that is precisely my issue with this, I think all casters should get 10th level spells automatically, instead of breaking 18th levels of progression and gated them behind a feat.

I don't think casters should get spells like Miracle or Wish at all. So seems to me like making a caster take a feat to get a game-breaking spell is a fair compromise. And yes, I know we haven't actually seen PF2 10th level spells, but we have a pretty good idea of what Wish will do.


Malachandra wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I think the happy medium would be that full casters get their 10th level slots automatically for heightening purposes, but still have to spend a feat to get the actual 10th level spells.
That is still a feat tax, how can that be any good?
Because the 10th level spells are so drastically more powerful. It effectively makes it a capstone you choose. You can choose whether your capstone is casting spells for free once per minute, or literally getting to break reality by casting Wish, or whatever.
Have you seen any 10th level spells? How can you affirm that they're "drastically more powerful"? And that is still a feat tax BTW
It's only a feat tax in that you have to take it to get an ability you wouldn't otherwise get, which is true of all feats. In the commonly used parlance where a feat tax is "a feat you have to take to do the not-directly-related thing you actually want to do", it's not a feat tax. Not every caster is going to have 10th level spells; we know from the druid reveal at PaizoCon that 10th level spells are competing against other abilities that modify the caster's other class abilities or adjust their casting in some unique and equivalent way.
And that is precisely my issue with this, I think all casters should get 10th level spells automatically, instead of breaking 18th levels of progression and gated them behind a feat.
I don't think casters should get spells like Miracle or Wish at all. So seems to me like making a caster take a feat to get a game-breaking spell is a fair compromise. And yes, I know we haven't actually seen PF2 10th level spells, but we have a pretty good idea of what Wish will do.

Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?


Whether using a feat to open up 10th level spells is worth it or not will depend on the power of the spells and what opportunities are lost by making that choice. We just don't have the total picture yet.


One of the things I want to see is the new arcane schools. In particular I want to see what an evoker is getting for school powers.


edduardco wrote:
Malachandra wrote:


I don't think casters should get spells like Miracle or Wish at all. So seems to me like making a caster take a feat to get a game-breaking spell is a fair compromise. And yes, I know we haven't actually seen PF2 10th level spells, but we have a pretty good idea of what Wish will do.
Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?

Well for one thing, it will be able to be cast without needing an expensive diamond anymore, since they've made it pretty clear spells won't have expensive components, only rituals.

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edduardco wrote:
Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?

You are right. We don't know for sure. But, I have a pretty good guess:

Wish wrote:

By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

  • Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower
  • Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn).
  • Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Malachandra wrote:


I don't think casters should get spells like Miracle or Wish at all. So seems to me like making a caster take a feat to get a game-breaking spell is a fair compromise. And yes, I know we haven't actually seen PF2 10th level spells, but we have a pretty good idea of what Wish will do.
Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?
Well for one thing, it will be able to be cast without needing an expensive diamond anymore, since they've made it pretty clear spells won't have expensive components, only rituals.

And I'm quite confident that is also not going to be able to increases ability scores or produces items, and ability score increases is the reason most people consider Wish broken


KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?

You are right. We don't know for sure. But, I have a pretty good guess:

Wish wrote:

By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

  • Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower
  • Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn).
  • Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to
...

That seems to be along the lines of what a 19th level caster should be able to do, I don't see anything broken there

Sovereign Court

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edduardco wrote:
That seems to be along the lines of what a 19th level caster should be able to do, I don't see anything broken there

You cut out the most powerful part: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."

It is a spell with no upper limits, an appropriate capstone.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.
Again, based on what? Have the spell effect been reveled? Have you seen the actual mechanics of those spells?

And you have seen it to say that isn't worth it?

What little we know seem powerful. Do you have some different information?


KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
That seems to be along the lines of what a 19th level caster should be able to do, I don't see anything broken there

You cut out the most powerful part: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."

It is a spell with no upper limits, an appropriate capstone.

That was unintended, too much text, still that line is GM territory, is when Wish screw the caster most of the times, so still nothing broken for me

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
edduardco wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Malachandra wrote:


I don't think casters should get spells like Miracle or Wish at all. So seems to me like making a caster take a feat to get a game-breaking spell is a fair compromise. And yes, I know we haven't actually seen PF2 10th level spells, but we have a pretty good idea of what Wish will do.
Or really? Please tell me what Wish will be capable of do?
Well for one thing, it will be able to be cast without needing an expensive diamond anymore, since they've made it pretty clear spells won't have expensive components, only rituals.
And I'm quite confident that is also not going to be able to increases ability scores or produces items, and ability score increases is the reason most people consider Wish broken

Not really. If you want to raise your stat by 5 points the difference between casting 5 wishes and the cost of an appropriate manual is 10% of the total cost.

if you are making the manual that extra become 5% and if you use some downtime you can reduce the total cost further.


Diego Rossi wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.
Again, based on what? Have the spell effect been reveled? Have you seen the actual mechanics of those spells?

And you have seen it to say that isn't worth it?

What little we know seem powerful. Do you have some different information?

I never stated if it was worthy or not, and nothing that has been mentioned so far looks too powerful. I still think is wrong to break class progression and gate 10th level spells behind a feat.

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edduardco wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.
Again, based on what? Have the spell effect been reveled? Have you seen the actual mechanics of those spells?

And you have seen it to say that isn't worth it?

What little we know seem powerful. Do you have some different information?
I never stated if it was worthy or not, and nothing that has been mentioned so far looks too powerful. I still think is wrong to break class progression

Why is it wrong, other than aesthetics?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
edduardco wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
wish, miracle, and becoming an avatar of your deity seem pretty worth it.
Again, based on what? Have the spell effect been reveled? Have you seen the actual mechanics of those spells?

And you have seen it to say that isn't worth it?

What little we know seem powerful. Do you have some different information?
I never stated if it was worthy or not, and nothing that has been mentioned so far looks too powerful. I still think is wrong to break class progression and gate 10th level spells behind a feat.

Everyone has his fetishes, but it is the first time I see someone idolize "class progression" this way.


Wait, as I understand it:

- you get a 10th level slot for free, so you can heighten the heck out of that magic missile
- you have to spend a feat to get a 10th level spell (e.g. Wish, everybody is going to take wish.)

Is that not correct?


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You know I think he's correct on the progression thing, wizards should only be able to use cantrips at level 1, then they gain level 1 spells at 2, level 2 spells at 4 and so on.

This would straighten out the progression curve, so that gaining a 10th level spell at 20 lines up properly.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Why is it wrong, other than aesthetics?

For me is bad design plain and simple, suddenly cutting something that was an automatic progression is just wrong to me, there is no way to justify that.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Wait, as I understand it:

- you get a 10th level slot for free, so you can heighten the heck out of that magic missile
- you have to spend a feat to get a 10th level spell (e.g. Wish, everybody is going to take wish.)

Is that not correct?

Currently that seems to be incorrect, it seems that the 10 level "spells" you gain are 1/day abilities rather than slots.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Everyone has his fetishes, but it is the first time I see someone idolize "class progression" this way.

Thank you

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willuwontu wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Wait, as I understand it:

- you get a 10th level slot for free, so you can heighten the heck out of that magic missile
- you have to spend a feat to get a 10th level spell (e.g. Wish, everybody is going to take wish.)

Is that not correct?

Currently that seems to be incorrect, it seems that the 10 level "spells" you gain are 1/day abilities rather than slots.

10th level spells are a slot. You do need to spend your feat to unlock it, though.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Link: Mark describing a cleric preparing remove curse in their 10th level slot.


KingOfAnything wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Wait, as I understand it:

- you get a 10th level slot for free, so you can heighten the heck out of that magic missile
- you have to spend a feat to get a 10th level spell (e.g. Wish, everybody is going to take wish.)

Is that not correct?

Currently that seems to be incorrect, it seems that the 10 level "spells" you gain are 1/day abilities rather than slots.

10th level spells are a slot. You do need to spend your feat to unlock it, though.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Link: Mark describing a cleric preparing remove curse in their 10th level slot.

I stand corrected.

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