Eminent Domains

Friday, April 27, 2018

Deities and their domains are a big part of what makes clerics special. Logan set the stage with his cleric blog on Monday, so now let's get into the weeds and take a look at how we structured deities and domains.

Basic Deities

For each deity, we present some basic information, including areas of concern, titles, alignment, edicts, anathema, and favored weapon. Most of these are familiar or self-explanatory. One of the newer entries, anathema, is a concept Logan mentioned on Monday. This entry provides examples of actions that violate the deity's tenets. Let's take Shelyn as an example.

Shelyn

The Eternal Rose is the goddess of art, beauty, love, and music. She seeks to one day redeem her corrupted brother Zon-Kuthon.

Alignment NG
Edicts be peaceful, choose and perfect an art, lead by example, see the beauty in all things
Anathema destroy works of art or allow one to be destroyed except to save a life or in pursuit of greater art, refuse to accept surrender, strike first
Favored Weapon glaive

This entry gives you a good idea of how to play a Shelynite PC of any class. For example, a fighter faithful Shelyn might consider wielding her goddess's favored weapon, and even lay followers would likely feel terrible guilt at committing anathema acts even though they face no mechanical consequence for doing so. But what kind of cool stuff do you get if you're a cleric of a specific deity?

Clerics and Deities

Your choice of deity is essential when determining what type of cleric you play. A free-spirited and optimistic Desnan cleric, a tyrannical and scheming Asmodean, and a self-reliant perfectionist Iroran all relate to the world in different ways. We wanted to reflect this with a variety of character customization options based on deity! We've included a chart that indicates each deity's areas of concern, alignment (and the alignments allowed for their clerics), type of channeled energy (positive, negative, or either), signature skill, favored weapon, domains, and spells. For instance, here's Shelyn's entry on that table:

ShelynArt, beauty, love, and musicNG (LG, NG, CG)PositiveCraftingGlaiveCreation, family,
passion, protection
1st: color spray,
3rd: enthrall, 4th: creation

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

The deity's areas of concern include a brief restatement of her titles.

You'll notice the alignment lists not only Shelyn's alignment of neutral good, but also all the alignments her clerics could have in parentheses. Listing it this way allows us (or you, for your own deities) to be more expressive when creating deities. For instance, Norgorber now has slightly different alignments permitted for his clerics depending on which aspect of the deity they worship! Or, you could create a new deity of balance through opposing extremes who accepts only neutral, lawful good, chaotic good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil clerics.

Listing the type of channeled energy the deity grants allows for some really exciting situations. For instance, Lamasthu may be an incredibly evil deity of nightmares, but she's also a deity of the wild fecundity of the Abyss, so she allows her clerics to choose negative or positive energy when channeling. You could even have a good deity that granted only negative energy (none of the core deities worshiped in the Inner Sea region of Golarion do so, but it could be possible for a deity like Tsukiyo, perhaps, as part of his dualism with Shizuru) or an evil deity that could grant only positive energy.

The deity's signature skill is in addition to those all clerics gain, so Shelynite clerics always have the ability to reach great heights in Crafting. Norgorberite clerics, in contrast, gain Stealth in order to blend into the shadows, allowing them to fit in well with clandestine groups.

What about those spells at the end? Those are three extra spells that all clerics of Shelyn can prepare and cast! These aren't in any sort of special "domain slots" like before; you can cast them as few or as many times as you want. Oh, and Sarenrae has fireball!

But wait, Mark, what about...

Domains

Pathfinder First Edition has a list of domains that cover a variety of basic concepts but miss others entirely, and they are fairly generic, which means they don't always convey the nuance of why your deity has that domain. A great example of this was the Death domain and all its undead spells not really fitting with Pharasma, the goddess of death who hates undead.

One of the earliest and coolest innovations to domains in Pathfinder appeared in the Advanced Player's Guide, where subdomains altered domains to add nuance. In the playtest, we're bringing in that sort of flexibility right away! Each domain has a basic power and an advanced power, and because domain powers work as spells, creating a new domain that's perfect for your world is as simple as adding two spells. This allowed us to include significantly more domains in the game and will allow us to expand to even more domains with ease. Here's the list of new domains that don't share a name with any of the old domains (some names you might recognize from subdomains):

  • Ambition
  • Cities
  • Confidence
  • Creation
  • Dreams
  • Family
  • Fate
  • Freedom
  • Indulgence
  • Light
  • Might
  • Moon
  • Nature
  • Nightmares
  • Pain
  • Passion
  • Perfection
  • Secrecy
  • Truth
  • Tyranny
  • Undeath
  • Wealth
  • Zeal

These domains allow for a variety of powers that can really give you the feel of playing a cleric of a specific deity, both in combat and out! For example, take a look at this fun noncombat basic power from the Indulgence domain:

Enhance Victuals (Transmutation) Power 1

Casting 1 minute (Material, Somatic, Verbal Casting)
Range touch; Target 1 nonmagical pint of water or pound of food

You transform the target into delicious fare, changing water into wine or another fine beverage or enhancing food's taste and ingredients to make it a gourmet treat. The transformation also attempts to counteract toxins in the food or water. If you have Spell Points, you can add an additional pint or pound for each additional Spell Point you spend. The feast vanishes if not consumed.

Heightened (+1) Increase initial and additional pints or pounds by 1.

So if you're a cleric of Cayden Cailean or Urgathoa, you're going to be able to party in style. Since powers are automatically heightened as you gain levels, that means for just 1 Spell Point, a 7th-level cleric can make enough gourmet food for her whole adventuring party to have a meal, and they'll be able to throw a banquet to serve an incredible number of guests if they pour plenty of Spell Points into it during downtime. That's all with only 1 minute to prepare, making them a wonderful host for any occasion!

Meanwhile, the Fate domain has an advanced power that might come in handy in a clutch. But I'll ask you before we dive in—are you feeling lucky?

Tempt Fate (divination, Fortune) Power 2

Casting [[F]] Somatic free action; Trigger You or an ally within range attempts a saving throw.
Range 120 feet; Target you or a willing ally in range

If the triggering saving throw's result is a success, it counts as a critical success. If it's a failure, it counts as a critical failure, and the critical failure can't be reduced by abilities that usually reduce critical failure, such as improved evasion. If the triggering ability did not have both a critical success and critical failure condition, tempt fate fails and your Spell Point is refunded.

With tempt fate, you take your fate into your own hands, promising either total vindication from your saving throw or total disaster! This was a favorite of Jason's cleric of Pharasma in one of our playtests, and needless to say, it's a better choice to use this for your strong saving throws than your weak ones.

But what about Shelyn? Let's close by taking a look at two of the powers from her granted domains, one for in combat and one for outside of combat:

Unity (Abjuration, Fortune) Power 2

Casting [[R]] Verbal reaction; Trigger You and one or more allies within range are targeted by a spell or ability that allows a saving throw.
Range 30 feet

You allow your allies within range to use your saving throw modifier instead of their own. Each ally decides individually which modifier to use.

Unity is really useful for a support cleric with good saving throw modifiers, and it's particularly great for those dangerous area effects that require Will saving throws like a harpy's song, since few allies will be able to match your cleric's Will modifier!

Artistic Flourish (Transmutation) Power 2

Casting 10 minutes (Material, Somatic, Verbal)
Range touch; Target one item or work of art
Duration 24 hours

You infuse the target with artisanal and artistic vision. Its quality increases to match your proficiency rank in Crafting, to a maximum of expert. The target is a beautiful and impressive piece for its new quality, but the effect is obviously temporary, so it can't be sold for more than normal. This doesn't allow you to use the target to Craft a magic item that requires the new quality or perform any other task requiring a permanent item of that quality.

Heightened (4th) If you spend 1 additional Spell Point, the maximum quality increases to master.
Heightened (8th) If you spend 2 additional Spell Points, the maximum quality increases to legendary.

Not only is artistic flourish a great way to express your character's inner artisan, but it can also be of great use in a pinch when you could really use a very specific tool or item of high quality. Legendary-quality items aren't cheap, after all! This is also a great example of one way that using Spell Points allows us to play around a bit more and make the spell more interesting by varying costs. You saw this a bit earlier with enhance victuals, but here it's more than just the ability to save extra castings for a large batch. These sorts of flourishes are possible to word under a "uses per day" system, but it's awkward, and they're straightforward to create and easy to understand with a Spell Point pool.

So who's your favorite deity? What sorts of new domains can you imagine with this new system? Let me know in the comments below!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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DrSwordopolis wrote:
Enhance Victuals wrote:
The transformation also attempts to counteract toxins in the food or water.
Is "attempting to counteract toxins" a reference to a defined mechanic, or just filler while you're still working on the mechanics of the spell?

Many PF2 spell-based mechanics work such that lower-level abilities can't invalidate higher-level powers (for example, Detect Magic can't see through illusion spells unless Detect Magic is cast with a higher caster level than the illusion.) So I imagine "attempt to counteract toxins" would mean that if your caster level is high enough, it will counteract the toxin, but won't have any effect if your CL is too low.


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I assume travel rations will be a standard item at low levels, will that be in bulk or pounds? How does the domain power interact with my L bulk of trail rations? If trail rations are by pound, can I just carry an infinite amount of food and water?


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Power 1 is the basic power everyone with the domain gets and Power 2 is the advanced power that costs a feat later on, and one heightens a domain power by spending more spell points? Do I have that right?


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This is awesome and I can’t wait to start converting deities from my favorite non-Golarion settings to PF2! Couple of questions:
1: by “you can cast (your domain spells) as few or as many times as you want” ...that’s still limited by spell preparation rules, right? A Cleric of Sarenrae can only cast as many Fireballs as she has spell slots of an appropriate level to prepare fireball in, right? She can’t just cast it at-will, can she?

2: if Domain Powers are going to have “Power X” in the top right corner instead of “Spell X”, can we please just call the points you spend to cast them “Power Points?” Seriously, it’ll be confusing enough that you don’t use Spell Points to cast spells without adding to the confusion by calling the things you do spend them on Powers.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
No healing, life, love, etc. domain that is also disappointing.
The blog doesn't say any of these things (at least a bit of it is accurate anyway, but still).

No Et Cetera Domain? What about an Eclectic Domain?

Liberty's Edge

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are alignment domains gone?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Charlaquin wrote:

This is awesome and I can’t wait to start converting deities from my favorite non-Golarion settings to PF2! Couple of questions:

1: by “you can cast (your domain spells) as few or as many times as you want” ...that’s still limited by spell preparation rules, right? A Cleric of Sarenrae can only cast as many Fireballs as she has spell slots of an appropriate level to prepare fireball in, right? She can’t just cast it at-will, can she?

Correct.

Paizo Employee Designer

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Power 1 is the basic power everyone with the domain gets and Power 2 is the advanced power that costs a feat later on, and one heightens a domain power by spending more spell points? Do I have that right?

Often you don't have to spend any more spell points to heighten it, you just get the heighten for free, like enhance victuals. Artistic flourish is a good exception because the ability to get master and legendary-quality items on demand is a particularly significant heighten (for instance, at the level you get the legendary heighten, people are just starting to be able to craft legendary items at all).


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so just to be clear, what are you spending your spell points on again?

Silver Crusade

So all that a domain does now is give you a basic power (spend spell points to use), and the ability to feat into an advanced power? Hmm. Sounds like domain choice will be a much smaller part of Playtest Clerics than PF1 Clerics. (Which is maybe to be expected since PF1 Clerics ~only~ had domains and now there will be more class features to go around?)


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Power 1 is the basic power everyone with the domain gets and Power 2 is the advanced power that costs a feat later on, and one heightens a domain power by spending more spell points? Do I have that right?

Almost? It looks like they work both like a spell and use spell points. Enhance Victuals has a Heightened property that automatically goes into effect. Artistic Flourish just allows you the option to spend more Spell Points to greater effect when Heightened.

Charlaquin wrote:
2: if Domain Powers are going to have “Power X” in the top right corner instead of “Spell X”, can we please just call the points you spend to cast them “Power Points?” Seriously, it’ll be confusing enough that you don’t use Spell Points to cast spells without adding to the confusion by calling the things you do spend them on Powers.

Yes please. I don't think there is even a case where you can use a Spell Point on a Spell that we've seen. They are for domain powers, spell-like abilities, and so on.


You would think Sheylin would grant diplomacy(or whatever the 2e version is) as a class skill unless clerics actually have that as a class skill?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How bad is it if a cleric does something anathema? Because for Shelyn those look pretty bad if it's more on the side of an atonement or loss of power as opposed to a light slap on the wrist. Protecting art, sure, though the party's going to be pretty pissed off if, in the mad dash to escape a collapsing ruin, instead of grabbing the artifact weapon that lets the party save the kingdom they opted to grab a big portrait that they have to lug back to town. The other two though are veering dangerously close to "too dumb to live" territory, with being unable to turn down a surrender (even if it's false or obviously a trap) and never striking first, which means the cleric gets to twiddle their fingers for a round while everyone else does stuff, two rounds if it's an ambush.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Power 1 is the basic power everyone with the domain gets and Power 2 is the advanced power that costs a feat later on, and one heightens a domain power by spending more spell points? Do I have that right?

If I’m reading correctly, Domain Powers are automatically heightened to the level of the highest spells you can cast. So, Enhance Victuals works on 1 + your maximum spell level pints/pounds automatically for 1 Spell point, and you can add an additional pint/pound per extra spell point you spend (which is different than heightening it.) With Artistic Fliurish, you can’t spend 1 Spell point to increase the maximum quality to Master unless you can cast 4th level or spells, and you can’t spend 2 spell points to increase the maximum quality to Legendary unless you can cast 8th level spells.

I think.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemaic wrote:
How bad is it if a cleric does something anathema? Because for Shelyn those look pretty bad if it's more on the side of an atonement or loss of power as opposed to a light slap on the wrist. Protecting art, sure, though the party's going to be pretty pissed off if, in the mad dash to escape a collapsing ruin, instead of grabbing the artifact weapon that lets the party save the kingdom they opted to grab a big portrait that they have to lug back to town. The other two though are veering dangerously close to "too dumb to live" territory, with being unable to turn down a surrender (even if it's false or obviously a trap) and never striking first, which means the cleric gets to twiddle their fingers for a round while everyone else does stuff, two rounds if it's an ambush.

Well for the first one does say if is to stop loss of life its okay.

Silver Crusade

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Alchemaic wrote:
Protecting art, sure, though the party's going to be pretty pissed off if, in the mad dash to escape a collapsing ruin, instead of grabbing the artifact weapon that lets the party save the kingdom they opted to grab a big portrait that they have to lug back to town.
Blog wrote:
destroy works of art or allow one to be destroyed except to save a life or in pursuit of greater art

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I like these. I'm guessing the Power 1 abilities are the "basic" power you get just for choosing the domain, and the Power 2 abilities are the ones you get if you spend a class feat to unlock the better power.

Enthrall is level 3 now, and I presume not on the standard cleric list because it still seems like you need to prepare them, so there's no point giving "bonus" spells that could be prepared anyway.

I know Golarion clerics must follow a deity, but I wonder how well this system adapts to home games with clerics of a philosophy. Last time I created such a world, I made preset philosophical religions that had no specific deity but were mechanically similar; but I know some people really like freeform clerics.


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Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Joe M. wrote:
So all that a domain does now is give you a basic power (spend spell points to use), and the ability to feat into an advanced power? Hmm. Sounds like domain choice will be a much smaller part of Playtest Clerics than PF1 Clerics. (Which is maybe to be expected since PF1 Clerics ~only~ had domains and now there will be more class features to go around?)

That's all the domains grant....for now. There are a huge number of domains, so there's not enough space in the playtest CRB (or likely in the regular CRB) to, for instance, create non-power feats based on domains, create additional domain powers for each domain, and so on. Unlike in PF1 where what you saw in the CRB was what you get for the rest of the edition (unless a subdomain replaces something, but still nothing is directly added), the flexibility of clerics means each domain and deity have room to expand and grow their influence. I'm looking forward to the day when a cleric of Shelyn focused on some of her domains can have a build that eschews most of the general cleric feats and has majority Shelyn and domain-specific abilities that make her totally different from the cleric of Desna adventuring beside her. But that will take time and space to achieve.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.

For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Alchemaic wrote:
How bad is it if a cleric does something anathema? Because for Shelyn those look pretty bad if it's more on the side of an atonement or loss of power as opposed to a light slap on the wrist. Protecting art, sure, though the party's going to be pretty pissed off if, in the mad dash to escape a collapsing ruin, instead of grabbing the artifact weapon that lets the party save the kingdom they opted to grab a big portrait that they have to lug back to town. The other two though are veering dangerously close to "too dumb to live" territory, with being unable to turn down a surrender (even if it's false or obviously a trap) and never striking first, which means the cleric gets to twiddle their fingers for a round while everyone else does stuff, two rounds if it's an ambush.

If you win initiative and a fight seems unavoidable, you could always spend the first round buffing. That's often useful and not striking first.

For example, it looks like artistic flourish can be used on weapons and armor, which I imagine will happen a lot.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.
For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.

I feel a little silly for not guessing that on my own. Thanks for the insights, Mark!


Power 2 mean its an advanced power or just that it costs 2 spell points? Or do these things even use spell points?


Some interesting ideas in the blog that I'd be happy to use, along with a number tied to some mechanics that I am leery about. Regardless, I am happy to see some work being done on the Gods and clerics.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Planpanther wrote:
Power 2 mean its an advanced power or just that it costs 2 spell points? Or do these things even use spell points?

It means it's an advanced power. Tempt fate, for instance, doesn't cost 2.


Joe M. wrote:
So all that a domain does now is give you a basic power (spend spell points to use), and the ability to feat into an advanced power? Hmm. Sounds like domain choice will be a much smaller part of Playtest Clerics than PF1 Clerics. (Which is maybe to be expected since PF1 Clerics ~only~ had domains and now there will be more class features to go around?)

Well, in addition to the domain power, the domain grants you some extra spell points.

Mark mentioned it in the Cleric topic:

"The more you feat into your cleric being tied to domains by getting new domain powers to spend your spell points, the more spell points you get, at the same time. If you love domains, we don't want you to have to choose between more per day and more variety!"

Grand Lodge

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Multiple powers for each domain?
From the 2 Fortune powers listed it looks like there are multiple powers available for each domain. Yay!
If this is correct then it will hopefully allow a domain to be versatile enough to apply to many different character concepts.

Using the old domain system honestly felt like trying to pick some domain and subdomain combo to hopefully NOT end up with some useless/inappropriate ability for your character.

"Hmm, for my dwarven weaponsmithing cleric of Torag i will focus on Artifice!
Let me see the domain powers...Artificers Touch...
Hmm, i can cast a mending at will...which is a cantrip... and a melee touch vs constructs ability, 1d6+1/2L...

Uh, nevermind, i think i'm all about the earth...errrr, i mean i'm all about metal..."

Edit: actually it looks like we may only get 1 power out of the gate, darn.
Well i hope the domain powers are setup to be as flexible as possible.

mark seifter wrote:
That's all the domains grant....for now. There are a huge number of domains, so there's not enough space in the playtest CRB (or likely in the regular CRB) to, for instance, create non-power feats based on domains, create additional domain powers for each domain, and so on.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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As far as always accepting surrender: Sometimes being the good guy means you have to give the bad guys a chance. It's no different than a knightly code of honor that require accepting a surrender. That doesn't mean you have to be stupid or naïve about it. You can put conditions on the surrender, restrain foes, and so forth.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.
For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.

What does signature skill mean here? Has this been explained already?


I'm enthused about the new presentation of information for deities as well as the new information about edicts and anathema. This will help a lot in making deities, and their clerics, more distinctive.
Not a fan of domain powers being treated as unlimited use spells. This seems to be a significant buff for clerics, potentially adding to the caster / martial power disparity. We'll see how balanced classes are during the playtest.


Thanks for the blog Mark, just one question, since you didn't post the full list of domains... is Luck still there? or will Fate have Bit of Luck as it's 1st power? Just hoping to keep Bit of Luck from PF1 :D


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To be completely honest I wasn't feeling the cleric at first, but with the inclusion of unique domain powers I am warming up to it more and more. The potential is definitely there. I can't wait to have a look at the Family domain. Mark, can you please tell us something more about that domain?

(I am personally hoping for some Drakainia type of re-population fun :D)


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MusicAddict wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.
For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.
What does signature skill mean here? Has this been explained already?

A deity's signature skill seems to be a bonus proficiency your cleric gets.

Speaking of which, likely-entirely-off guesses for which deities get which skills:

Abadar: Appraise
Asmodeus: Sense Motive
Calistria: Bluff
Cayden Cailean: Acrobatics
Desna: Fly
Erastil: Nature
Gorum: Athletics
Gozreh: Nature
Iomedae: Kn(Nobility)
Irori: Acrobatics
Lamashtu: Intimidate
Nethys: Spellcraft
Norgorber: Stealth
Pharasma: Zero guesses on this one.
Rovagug: Intimidate
Sarenrae: Acrobatics
Shelyn: Craft
Torag: Craft
Urgathoa: Lore(Undead)? Feel like Clerics will already have that, so... no idea.
Zon-Kuthon: Intimidate

Working off the PF1 list except for the ones we already know have been consolidated, I wouldn't be surprised if half of the skills here don't even exist in PF2, lol.


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Greymist wrote:

I'm enthused about the new presentation of information for deities as well as the new information about edicts and anathema. This will help a lot in making deities, and their clerics, more distinctive.

Not a fan of domain powers being treated as unlimited use spells. This seems to be a significant buff for clerics, potentially adding to the caster / martial power disparity. We'll see how balanced classes are during the playtest.

The wording in the blog post was strange, but Mark confirmed that the Domain spells are not unlimited. You still have to prepare them and expend spell slots to cast them. You just don’t need to prepare them in special spell slots that are just for your Domain spells. Domain Powers aren’t unlimited either. They cost Spell Points.


On spells, spell points, and so on, is there a unified wording over points = casting? One of the GMs I know takes a hard line interpretation between "number of spells known/prepped" and "number of spell slots." This would interact with things like pearls of power in their games as, sure, you can cast the spell again, but you don't get the spell slot itself back and would come across lackluster in those games.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.
For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.

Are Signature Skills akin to “Class Skills” in PF1 where you receive a larger bonus for investing in them? Or is it that you automatically count as “Trained” or “Expert” for those skills?

*legitimately wondering what Sarenrae would grant that doesn’t already sound like something Clerics would have as Signature Skills by default like Lore (Planes) or Lore (Religion)*

Lore . . . Sunlight?


I guessed Acrobatics for Sarenrae since she and Cayden Cailean are kinda the go-to gods for dexterity-based warriors.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
So all that a domain does now is give you a basic power (spend spell points to use), and the ability to feat into an advanced power? Hmm. Sounds like domain choice will be a much smaller part of Playtest Clerics than PF1 Clerics. (Which is maybe to be expected since PF1 Clerics ~only~ had domains and now there will be more class features to go around?)
That's all the domains grant....for now. There are a huge number of domains, so there's not enough space in the playtest CRB (or likely in the regular CRB) to, for instance, create non-power feats based on domains, create additional domain powers for each domain, and so on. Unlike in PF1 where what you saw in the CRB was what you get for the rest of the edition (unless a subdomain replaces something, but still nothing is directly added), the flexibility of clerics means each domain and deity have room to expand and grow their influence. I'm looking forward to the day when a cleric of Shelyn focused on some of her domains can have a build that eschews most of the general cleric feats and has majority Shelyn and domain-specific abilities that make her totally different from the cleric of Desna adventuring beside her. But that will take time and space to achieve.

That makes a lot of sense, and I hadn't thought ahead to how the flexible PF2 chassis makes it easy to expand domains in this manner. Exciting! (& thanks as always for the commentary!)


I'm all aboard the deity changes. It let's the clerics have personalities more in tune with their god.

Not so sure about the domain powers or how they work. None of them listed have specifically wowed me and honestly don't do all that much so define the character far less. I'll have to see more before Im sold on it.


With several other subdomains "promoted," I need to ask about the one I always though should be a full domain on its own: metal. It even had more core deities offering it than several full domains.

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Greymist wrote:

I'm enthused about the new presentation of information for deities as well as the new information about edicts and anathema. This will help a lot in making deities, and their clerics, more distinctive.

Not a fan of domain powers being treated as unlimited use spells. This seems to be a significant buff for clerics, potentially adding to the caster / martial power disparity. We'll see how balanced classes are during the playtest.

Domain powers aren't unlimited; instead they are limited by Spell Points. Now you can potentially get a lot of those points, into the double digits, but there's still a limit.

Silver Crusade

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ALSO, can't believe I forgot to mention it, but I love the edicts to go with the anathema


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Tempt Fate is just... amazingly horrible. The example critical failures we've seen are crippling and often equivalent to failing versus save or lose/die effects in d20. Critical success is useful but not nearly as critical, like effectively having evasion versus a fireball. The ability would only be good if you could use it offensively, no ally in their right mind is going to be a willing target for that thing.


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I like that deities can be inherently more flexible with alignments and channeling. I know I played fast and loose with these sorts of things with a homebrew pantheon I ran years ago, and they were some of the more interesting deities both from a mechanical and thematic point of view due to this. Definitely nice to see those restricts lifted.

I'm less enthralled by the deity-specific spells. As someone who doesn't run Golarion (and, in fact, isn't even running a traditional polytheistic pantheon currently), these sorts of things will be a pain to port over. There are also far fewer of them than you got with domains; a typically PF1 cleric got 18 domain spells over the course of their career, whereas the PF2 Cleric gets 4. The loss of domain spell slots is double-edged; I like how it lets you use the spells more freely, but the PF2 Cleric is looking more and more starved for spell slots with each bit of info we get, so it's looking questionable as to whether you will even have room to prep them more than once anyways...

I do like how the powers are more varied, but I really want to see the full class in context in that respect.

Enhance Victuals wrote:
The feast vanishes if not consumed.

I really don't like how the ability is nebulous here. How long do you have to consume it?

Silver Crusade

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Loving the direction of specific alignments for Clerics.

Hmm, an issue with Anathema I can see cropping up as is is “Well [evil action] isn’t listed on my (good) Deity’s list so I can totally do it!” I hope that will be adressed.

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So when you say "you can cast them as few or as many times as you want" Is this is still limited to spells per day, and they are not spontaneous?

Silver Crusade

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Something I’ve not seen mentioned yet for clerics is variant channeling; something I think is a neat concept but that I’ve never seen anyone actually use in PF1, because Channel Energy is just too good to trade away.

Is it going to be a thing in PF2? Frankly, I’d consider just giving it as an option for all clerics to use instead of healing/damage without being locked I to always doing that, for any domains they have.


Arachnofiend wrote:
MusicAddict wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hrm, not really a fan of Shelyn getting crafting as her signature skill. I would assume Artistry has been folded back into Crafting, but I'd still associate her far more strongly with the Perform skill; I feel like with the way things are people will be strongly encouraged to play Shelynites as blacksmiths which is... not really what she's about.
For all those suggesting Diplomacy and Performance for Shelyn: good news! All clerics have those as signature skills anyway. Similarly, Sarenrae doesn't grant Medicine (otherwise the obvious choice) because clerics have it already.
What does signature skill mean here? Has this been explained already?

A deity's signature skill seems to be a bonus proficiency your cleric gets.

Speaking of which, likely-entirely-off guesses for which deities get which skills:

Abadar: Appraise
Asmodeus: Sense Motive
Calistria: Bluff
Cayden Cailean: Acrobatics
Desna: Fly
Erastil: Nature
Gorum: Athletics
Gozreh: Nature
Iomedae: Kn(Nobility)
Irori: Acrobatics
Lamashtu: Intimidate
Nethys: Spellcraft
Norgorber: Stealth
Pharasma: Zero guesses on this one.
Rovagug: Intimidate
Sarenrae: Acrobatics
Shelyn: Craft
Torag: Craft
Urgathoa: Lore(Undead)? Feel like Clerics will already have that, so... no idea.
Zon-Kuthon: Intimidate

Working off the PF1 list except for the ones we already know have been consolidated, I wouldn't be surprised if half of the skills here don't even exist in PF2, lol.

I’d change Asmodeus to Bluff just because I assume that Clerics would have Sense Motice by default. I’d guess Nethys will give Lore (Arcane/Occult).

I’d really love it if Pharasma has Perception because of Fate and Prophecy. But I don’t think that Perception is a skill anymore. So maybe Lore (History)?

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The new domain system now inherits the problems with the subdomain system in PF 1.0.

All existing deities need updated every time a new domain gets published. Otherwise, we run into situations where clerics of older deities cannot get a domain appropriate for their god because the deity got published before the domain's publication. Situations like this feel really crappy. Sure, a GM could hand wave it, but it's preferable to have game systems that don't need their flaws hand waved by the GM.


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Heh, this blog post reminded me of that one PFS mod where my Cleric of Shelyn was given a faction mission from the Silver Crusade that was anathema to Shelyn's beliefs.[It involved destroying a work of art].

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