Cleric Class Preview

Monday, April 23, 2018

Clerics are the first spellcasters to get a preview, so you might want to look at the blog about spells before you proceed! We have a lot to say about this class, so let's cut to the chase!

Cleric Features

Clerics' key ability score is Wisdom. This means that they get an ability boost to Wisdom at 1st level, increasing their Wisdom score by 2. They also use this key ability to determine the DC of their spells. Like other things in the Playtest, spells are also affected by your proficiency. Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

At 1st level, clerics get several class features, including their deity and domain, anathema, channel energy, and of course, divine spellcasting (which we'll talk more about in a bit). Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!) Your choice of domain gives you a unique domain power. Powers are a special type of spell that come only from your class, and are cast with Spell Points—think of things from Pathfinder First Edition like domain powers or a wizard's school powers. Powers are stronger than cantrips, but not as strong as your best spells. A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast. She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

A cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements. Though we give some examples of anathemic acts for the various gods and goddesses—like how it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better—we wanted to leave this broad enough that the GM and player can make the final say in how these work in their games. Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

As you go up in level, you'll increase your proficiency rank with divine spells to expert at 12th level, master at 16th level, and legendary at 19th level.

Divine Spellcasting

Of course, the cleric's main feature is her divine spellcasting! At 1st level, you can cast two 1st-level spells each day, which you prepare from the selections on the divine spell list. Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day). At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells. You'll always be able to cast two or three spells of your highest level and three spells of every lower level, plus your cantrips and powers. Like your other spells, your 9th-level spells cap out at three spells, so at 19th level you become legendary in spellcasting instead. So what about your 10th-level spells? We'll talk about those in a future blog!

We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score. Your Wisdom still matters greatly for your spell DC and other things important to clerics, but giving it slightly less weight makes it more practical now for you to play a cleric of Gorum who focuses on Strength and uses spells that don't involve your spell DC or that have decent effects even if your enemy succeeds at its save.

Now, it's not quite true to say those are all the spells you get. Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! Moreover, these spells are heightened to the highest level of spell you cast, so as soon as you hit 3rd level, all those heal or harm spells become 2nd-level spells. This replaces the Pathfinder First Edition cleric's spontaneous healing, which required her to sacrifice her prepared spells to make room for a heal spell. Now, you can use your channel energy to cast these extra heal spells, and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots (in fact, this can be a good use of some of your lower-level slots as you go up in level). Your choice of deity determines which spell you can cast with channel energy. Pharasma lets you cast heal, Rovagug makes you cast harm, and someone like Abadar or Lamashtu lets you choose your path at 1st level.

Cleric Feats

As we've mentioned before, we always wanted Pathfinder Second Edition to provide all classes with a sizeable number of options for customization. The cleric was one of the classes that had the most to gain, since a cleric got a bunch of class features at 1st level, then crickets for the rest of her career. The cleric's new class feats give her all sorts of new flexibility, so let's look at some of those!

At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!

At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains. At 8th level, if you channel positive energy, you could take the Channeled Succor feat so you can cast remove curse, remove disease, remove paralysis, or restoration with your channeled energy spells instead of just heal.

Let's take a look at a category of feats clerics have plenty of: metamagic! You can activate a metamagic feat when you cast a spell. This increases the number of actions required to cast the spell and modifies the spell in some way. At 1st level, for example, you could select Reach Spell to let you add a Somatic Casting action to a spell and increase its range by 30 feet (or to make a touch spell into a ranged touch spell with a 30-foot range). This is a metamagic feat lots of spellcasters can take, but the cleric gets some others that are more specific to her as well. Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature. Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round. And if you use a lot of metamagic, the 20th-level cleric feat Metamagic Channeler is a great choice—it lets you apply a metamagic feat to a harm or heal spell without adding an action to its casting!

So what are your favorite parts of the new cleric? Any builds you're itching to try out? How about concepts you made in Pathfinder First Edition you'd like to take another shot at?

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Clerics Kyra Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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doc roc wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:


Stop just stop once you start being rude you already ruined your stance take a step back and apologize for being rude then rephrase what your trying to say. It will help you make your point in such a way that people will listen instead of just ignore your post or alternatively choose the opposite side just to annoy you. I've seen it happen.

Just trying to help ya out.

Nothing in my post was remotely "rude".

Defending your point with evidence and identifying flaws in others is not rude. Its called proper debate. The fact that someone doesn't like what you're saying doesn't by definition make it wrong! Evidence is required.

When people start swearing and other such stuff then its rude.

I'm pretty comfortable saying you don't need to swear to be rude, when you can otherwise be condescending without it. Your sentence"As is often the case, you have confused "More relevant options" with "More power"....." at BEST reads as you telling Kalindlara they are making a mistake that a lot of people make. At worse, it can be read as saying "You, Kalindlara, often make this mistake." Which is how I read it at first glance and is basically calling them dumb. Either usage frankly smacks of a smug faith that you are right and whoever disagrees with you is wrong.


Stone Dog wrote:

"Cleric boring" About 411,000 results

"Cleric fun" About 1,760,000 results

And how many of the "Cleric fun" results are to do with something like...

'Why aren't clerics fun to play?'

'How I would make clerics more fun to play'

'Is it just me or are clerics not much fun?'

'I've tried playing a cleric and its just not any fun.'

The proof is in the pudding....

People have been talking about re-doing the cleric for years, some of the most popular 3PP have been cleric related and Paizo themselves admit they made a bland chassis in the first place.

The evidence is out there.

Shadow Lodge

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And how many of those "cleric boring" results are something like...

"Why do people say clerics are boring?"

"I don't think clerics are boring!"

"Clerics boring? WRONG!"

But keep on moving your goalposts.


I don’t care for how Clerics were made either. They were still the most popular caster in PF1. That’s also pudding with proof inside. I’m glad to see them getting options for more domains, and being able to add buffs to their healing. I might give one a try this time around.


"clerics are boring" About 730 results with quotation marks included.

"Clerics are fun" About 2,150 results with quotation marks included.


QuidEst wrote:
I don’t care for how Clerics were made either. They were still the most popular caster in PF1. That’s also pudding with proof inside. {. . .}

For all that they tend to be boring (unless actively compensated by the player), they are still very powerful, which counts for something in popularity, even among the crowd that is not strictly power gamers. Boring or not, it still does what it is expected to do, and then some. Full caster with access to entire spell list (except for spells forbidden by alignment) . . . check; 3/4 BAB . . . check; d8 HD . . . check; good Fortitude and Will Saves . . . check. Ok Jack -- let's get this baby off the ground.


doc roc wrote:
Mekkis wrote:


As this is also inconsistent, it makes designing archetypes very difficult, as they have nothing to "trade out".

I would very much like Jason Buhlman to explain his side of this story.

I disagree. Even with a bland chassis more effort could have been made with archetypes and trade outs.

[...]

IMO Paizo just didn't make the effort. They knew the chassis was bland but they weren't brave enough with the archetypes.

Search "cleric boring"..... see how many hits you get!!!

I'm not saying that cleric archetypes aren't uninspring - they are.

I'm not saying that there could have been more of them - there definitely could have been.

I'm just giving my theory on why the are rather archetype-incompatible.

The biggest issue that I've seen with clerics is that they tend to be a bit on the "largely useless" side at low levels. Once they reach level 5 -7, their spellcasting becomes a much nicer proposition.

(This might also have been an artefact of the post-playtest nerfs...)


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Dear Paizo,

With cleric feat options, and so on, will it be possible to make a:

A. Casty Cleric
B. Battle Priest

...using the same chassis?


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MuddyVolcano wrote:

Dear Paizo,

With cleric feat options, and so on, will it be possible to make a:

A. Casty Cleric
B. Battle Priest

...using the same chassis?

Yes, I want the sandal and staff prophet dude, and the templar/armoured priest type, in one class.


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I've been wondering at bolting some of the "alternative champion" features onto the cleric. To borrow some post-text from a very awesome ratty:

Very Awesome Ratty wrote:


Say the Enforcer, as a voice of authority and order, gets abilities similar to the 4E warlord. Instead of Lay on Hands, they shout inspiring commands to grant temporary hit points. Instead of Divine Grace, they can further extend this inspiration to, as a reaction, mitigate incoming damage dealt to themself and their allies. Their answer to mercies is to accumulate abilities to control the battlefield and move, buff and grant extra actions to their allies. If they get auras at all, it's more like bardic inspiration in how it is executed.

So I like this. What if we did something like making Divine Favor a class ability, though, that can be selected as a Cleric Feat? Also, what about allowing clerics to swap Channel Energy effects for deity-based aura blasts?

Channel Energy works as an aura effect already, and we have examples of alternate channels in previous Paizo publications. It wouldn't take too much to swap this out to more deity-based effects.

Very Awesome Ratty wrote:


Say the Vindicator, as a champion of the alignment of individuality, freedom and contrarianism, is more of a lone wolf. They don't really get abilities which directly help their allies like a paladin or enforcer would. Instead they focus on counterattacks, endurance and mobility. They can challenge foes to draw focus. Like the 3.x Crusader, they can delay damage that would be done to them and use it to empower themselves against their foes. Their answer to mercies lets them delay paying the piper longer, add powerful effects to their reprisal attacks, and stave off conditions as well. Instead of Divine Grace, they can add to AC like the Goodadin does to saves, and proc into an opportunity attack if this causes the opponent to miss.

A crusader strikes me as a mounted option, which clerics had through some domains. Now, that's offered through Nature as a skill. That may help, here.

Staving off conditions exists in the cleric, today already, through multiple spells.

What if we let clerics have an ability to cast a spell /with/ their channel, blending the two for a powerful blessing from their deity upon the battlefield?

A cleric feat might let them draw on their deity's protections temporarily, against that deity's enemies. Instead of a "protection versus evil," this protection could be against the things their deity opposes.

Tossing ideas to the wall here, and seeing if they stick. I see more options for customization in cleric--and an answer to the "clerics are boring" issue brought up above. Personally, I love them. That's one of the reasons I'd love to see these sorts of thematic auras be part of the class.

If we expand cleric themes and abilities based on domains, domains are based on deity. Doing it that way opens doors to customization, because domains can be shifted around, assigned to deities and groups--and allow for a broad number of faith concepts.

This potentially allows for faith warriors of axis, too. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are also domains. A warrior priest of x offers abilities and protections against enemies of that faith, and buffs themselves (and potentially those around them) in a unique way.


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Weather Report wrote:


Yes, I want the sandal and staff prophet dude, and the templar/armoured priest type, in one class.

Leaving aside the dubious thematic/historical concept of Mr Mace+Armour+Cast Cleric.... there is no need to have 'Battle Cleric' potential built into the chassis.

Holy Warrior is reasonably well covered by Paladin but since that has alignment issues, Warpriest IS definitely that type of cleric.

Never in the history of PF has a concept been made redundant quicker than when Warpriest appeared and made redundant the Battle Cleric.

If you are a cleric of a war god, then this should be 99% reflected in the powers you receive, not in the functionality of the base chassis.

Cast and hit gish should be left to a chassis that is specifically designed to do it. Having underlying gish in the cleric chassis has always held it back. A battle option in the form of an archetype would be fine.


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doc roc wrote:
A battle option in the form of an archetype would be fine.

I'd be fine with the base cleric to be a more robed caster type, like a white mage or something, but can go a more warrior route through an archetype.


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I definitely prefer my clerics as white mages or 2E specialty priests or the like.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
I definitely prefer my clerics as white mages or 2E specialty priests or the like.

I get that.

I mean, my proposal for the cleric is in part because I see the class differently, as having different potential.

That's pretty similar to some of the arguments about the paladin, you know?

It sounds like really, the only way forward is by building a warpriest class, in addition to the cleric AND paladin.


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Eh, I think it's possible to build the cleric so that both armored warpriests and unarmored white mages are viable styles within the chassis. It would have been easy to do in PF1 if Paizo hadn't made the unarmored archetypes universally terrible for no reason at all. Giving the cleric a way to get unarmored proficiency is all that would really be needed.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
It would have been easy to do in PF1 if Paizo hadn't made the unarmored archetypes universally terrible for no reason at all.

If it helps, the blossoming light wasn't intentionally terrible. I still quite like it... though I understand that losing domain spellcasting goes against what a lot of folks are looking for in their "divine wizard" class. ^_^


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Eh, I think it's possible to build the cleric so that both armored warpriests and unarmored white mages are viable styles within the chassis. It would have been easy to do in PF1 if Paizo hadn't made the unarmored archetypes universally terrible for no reason at all. Giving the cleric a way to get unarmored proficiency is all that would really be needed.

The issue that holds back pushing more martial onto the cleric chassis is how to trade away the flexibility of full-caster spell slots to justify that martial oomph. That's where the warpriest did things so well, and why it was needed over a plain cleric - and continues to be needed in pf2 as well.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Eh, I think it's possible to build the cleric so that both armored warpriests and unarmored white mages are viable styles within the chassis. It would have been easy to do in PF1 if Paizo hadn't made the unarmored archetypes universally terrible for no reason at all. Giving the cleric a way to get unarmored proficiency is all that would really be needed.
The issue that holds back pushing more martial onto the cleric chassis is how to trade away the flexibility of full-caster spell slots to justify that martial oomph. That's where the warpriest did things so well, and why it was needed over a plain cleric - and continues to be needed in pf2 as well.

Hey, thanks for chiming in.

So, I have to play devil's advocate, here, and I hope you'll forgive me for that. They are reducing spell slots some, overall. They're adding cleric feats which are effectively selectable class features. Things are not exactly the same as they were.

So--I can see the potential. But, there's the potential that folks prefer it to be a caster-priest as its primary focus, you know?

And, that's perfectly cool.


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MuddyVolcano wrote:
It sounds like really, the only way forward is by building a warpriest class, in addition to the cleric AND paladin.

Yeah, or keep the Cleric as armoured mace-boy, and make a new Priest class.

There is a cool option in the 5th Ed DMG for clerics to forgo all armour and weapon proficiencies, except for the quarterstaff, in exchange for Unarmoured Defence (like a monk).


Will we need a war priest since the new cleric is full BAB what will be the difference.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Will we need a war priest since the new cleric is full BAB what will be the difference.

It seems that Proficiency level in attacks is PF2's equivalent to Full/Not-full BAB

So the answer to your question depends on how easy it will be for Clerics to reach the higher proficiencies


The Raven Black wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Will we need a war priest since the new cleric is full BAB what will be the difference.

It seems that Proficiency level in attacks is PF2's equivalent to Full/Not-full BAB

So the answer to your question depends on how easy it will be for Clerics to reach the higher proficiencies

I would postulate it's easier to do this with that War Domain thing.

Get it, "War" Priest?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Weather Report wrote:
doc roc wrote:
A battle option in the form of an archetype would be fine.
I'd be fine with the base cleric to be a more robed caster type, like a white mage or something, but can go a more warrior route through an archetype.

have to disagree that War Priest covers holt warrior, it does not feel like a holy warrior more like a cleric who skipped class for the gym. Way to much casting for a start, a holy warrior is a guy imbued with some divine power, not a 6/9 caster.


master_marshmallow wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Will we need a war priest since the new cleric is full BAB what will be the difference.

It seems that Proficiency level in attacks is PF2's equivalent to Full/Not-full BAB

So the answer to your question depends on how easy it will be for Clerics to reach the higher proficiencies

I would postulate it's easier to do this with that War Domain thing.

Get it, "War" Priest?

Umm yes I think so. Hmm actually if the war domain grants weapon expertise then it really might make the War (YES I GET IT) priest unneeded for PF2


It doesn't make sense to put two martial focused divine characters in the core rulebook.

It would be far less work to create Paladin archetypes for other alignments that just change the Code and tweak abilities a bit.


Your in the wrong thread paladin thread is on the top.


The topics go together.

You don't create classes in a vacuum. If a martial focused divine warrior is already being created, it doesn't make sense to make a second one.


Oh ok I see what your trying to say now. Ok but it does make sense for the war domain to make the cleric better at martial things.


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I do hope War domain's not the only way to have a Cleric effectively wielding the favored weapon of their Deity. Especially since I already have a Glaive-wielding Cleric of Shelyn lined up.


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Rob Godfrey wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
doc roc wrote:
A battle option in the form of an archetype would be fine.
I'd be fine with the base cleric to be a more robed caster type, like a white mage or something, but can go a more warrior route through an archetype.
have to disagree that War Priest covers holt warrior, it does not feel like a holy warrior more like a cleric who skipped class for the gym. Way to much casting for a start, a holy warrior is a guy imbued with some divine power, not a 6/9 caster.

If the default Cleric was a 9/9 caster with lower BAB, limited armour and weapon proficiency, the "Holy Prophet/White Mage" type, then there'd be much more room for a warrior-priest. Keeping the AD&D/BD&D warrior-priest and adding two more levels of spells on top pretty much made both of those quite common archetypes non-starters when the Cleric does both of their schticks and more already.


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I was just thinking, reading all this, we still don't know how or if 4/9, 6/9 what-have-you, will be in PF2,, looks like the Paladin is not going any such route.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Oh ok I see what your trying to say now. Ok but it does make sense for the war domain to make the cleric better at martial things.

Arguably, the strength domain should do that - the War domain should make one better at commanding/organizing martial characters.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Oh ok I see what your trying to say now. Ok but it does make sense for the war domain to make the cleric better at martial things.
Arguably, the strength domain should do that - the War domain should make one better at commanding/organizing martial characters.

I could see that but might also depend on which deity.


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Think about things logically...

If you have a deity whose 'area of concern' does not include war/blood/violence.... etc, why would you require that your clerics (supposedly the 'keepers of the faith') have an inbuilt ability for battle? Especially when you have Warpriests, Inquisitors, Paladins (in some cases) and possibly aligned Fighters who are far, far better suited to the task??!

Even if you were a God of War... etc.... the above would still apply, and ironically probably more so, since your beliefs are more in line with martials and thus more likely to attract worshippers from them!! A cleric in your service would be granted 'War-like divine powers' not D8 HD, 3/4 BAB, med armour and a mace!!!

Its actually far more likely and thematically realistic to have the cleric as an un-martial/gish class as its default setting.

First and foremost a cleric is a wielder of divine power... smiting unbelievers and heretics with plagues, firestorms and buffing allies in battle.

IMO Paizo has a completely backward view on the cleric which is still 1st Ed D&D based. A 'battle' option should be archetype based not inbuilt. I've said it a million times.... Holy men DONT walk around with maces and shields!! WARpriests... etc on the other hand do!

And finally making the cleric a 'D6 type class' actually helps classes like Warpriest, Inquisitor... etc as it generates distance between them and so prevents any overlap and makes design easier. Overlap between classes is death and should be avoided whenever possible.

Oh the frustrating irony!!!


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I've wanted a 'white mage' style priest for a long time. A completely unarmored follower of a deity who isn't focused on spells.

I've also accepted that this wasn't what D&D went for, and Pathfinder is/was based on 3.5. I'm hoping they give us a good option for it, but I'm not going to be surprised or upset if we don't get it. I'll be delighted if we do, though.


But if no Warpriests are availible and your paladins are fighting demons at the worldwound the cleric will do what he can.

I understand the notion that clerics should be more divine casters (which makes sense from the background)

But there are always men and women of faith who feel called to do more then just pray.

Of course there are (for example) Shelyn Inquisitors hunting kuthonites or Sarenrae Warpriests hunting undead or a calvalier defending a holy site of Sarenrae. But if there is non availible the clerics are the most likely to pick up the arms and do what needs to be done.
They are always a big part of eich deities followers, in many cases the biggest part (besides the average peasent of course).
And a cleric will do what needs to be done to serve their faith. Be it taking up bandages of a healer, music instruments to lighten up the spirits or weapons to defend whatever principle their deity stands for.


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The warrior cleric is a long tradition in DnD.

I understand too, the want for the priestly priest.

If though, the "I love the paladin flavor as x" isn't as valid as the "I want cleric flavor as x," then we need to revisit how we treat one another.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Cleric is not the Divine Wizard


On "priestly" clerics: I would like to maybe see this kind of thing handled through domains.

For instance: perhaps a cleric with the peace domain could have an all-day spell that grants a big buff to AC and Saves so long as they wore no armor and held no weapon.

Perhaps the cleric domain had excellent party buffs that forced them to use a book (bible) in one hand and a holy symbol in the other in order to keep those buffs going round to round.

Alternately, you could handle it though feats. Perhaps you could take a feat that makes your anathema more binding but also means you don't need to wear armor (as your faith protects you) and your cantrips get a small damage buff.

Then again, I also don't mind these kinds of things being folded into oracles or some other class later on as well.


Looks like everyone gets armor now, including wizards.
Unclear how this affects your opinion.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Looks like everyone gets armor now, including wizards.

Unclear how this affects your opinion.

Well, some classes don't like wizard get any armor proficiency but they can burn feats for armor. It is currently unclear if they'd ever want to do so, however.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Looks like everyone gets armor now, including wizards.

Unclear how this affects your opinion.
Well, some classes don't like wizard get any armor proficiency but they can burn feats for armor. It is currently unclear if they'd ever want to do so, however.

Considering that magic armor now improves your saves and TAC, I imagine they might.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Magic bracers improve those things, too.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Looks like everyone gets armor now, including wizards.

Unclear how this affects your opinion.
Well, some classes don't like wizard get any armor proficiency but they can burn feats for armor. It is currently unclear if they'd ever want to do so, however.
Considering that magic armor now improves your saves and TAC, I imagine they might.

Well, if there is a spell like mage armor that does not stack with regular armor then a wizard may just opt for bracers of armor, jeans, and a T-shirt. Even in the absence of mage armor and the like, competing feats may be so good that picking up armor is a hard decision. We don't know~


KingOfAnything wrote:
Magic bracers improve those things, too.

In pathfinder classic, there where enchants that couldn't be put of bracers so that might be a factor on new pathfinder.

Excaliburproxy wrote:
Well, a spell like mage armor that does not stack with regular armor so a wizard may just opt for bracers of armor, jeans, and a T-shirt.

If dispel/antimagic is still a thing, physical armor might come in handy.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Personally, I'd have loved to see the cleric be moved further away from martial capability, to make better concept space for the proper Warpriest/Champion class we appear to not be getting in the playtest. The clerics teach the beliefs and manifest the prayers into spells of great power - the champions show the beliefs, with divinely charged feats of greatness.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Personally, I'd have loved to see the cleric be moved further away from martial capability, to make better concept space for the proper Warpriest/Champion class we appear to not be getting in the playtest. The clerics teach the beliefs and manifest the prayers into spells of great power - the champions show the beliefs, with divinely charged feats of greatness.

The leveling blog teased something about multiclassing. As such, maybe that mechanic will be viable enough to let you go cleric/fighter (or fighter/cleric if that is different) and you will get the results you want.

The multiclassing rules may be the thing that I am most excited to see, really.


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The Raven Black wrote:
The Cleric is not the Divine Wizard

Mechanically, its pretty class. It has just as many spells and prepares them in a fairly similar way.

If it can *also* go toe to toe with a fighter or paladin in martial combat, then the class is going to be very overpowered, like it was in 3.5.


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I miss the versatility of the 2nd ed specialty priests. War priest, inquisitor and cleric cover part of it, but I would like to see the possibility for someone with less armor & combat capability and more skill & special power type abilities.

Dark Archive

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Pagan priest wrote:
I miss the versatility of the 2nd ed specialty priests. War priest, inquisitor and cleric cover part of it, but I would like to see the possibility for someone with less armor & combat capability and more skill & special power type abilities.

Ditto, although the specialty priests that did exist were not particularly balanced with each other, let alone other classes (ooh, this one lets you multi-class with wizard, as a human, and cast your wizard spells in plate armor! And this other one lets you tell if someone is lying and has way less spells and armor than a standard cleric...).

There's a part of me that wants totally on-theme clerics for each deity, and another part of me that shudders at the notion, particularly for a setting with more than a half-dozen or so gods (or mostly just one for each alignment, like Dragonlance or the Scarred Lands).

Since most settings have dozens, if not hundreds of gods, including entirely new pantheons of gods with oft-overlapping areas of concern for different races and regions and cultures, you'd pretty much have to create dozens of different sub-classes of 'cleric,' with some very different warrior-clerics for gods like Iomedae and Gorum and some also quite different types of cloth-caster 'white mages' for gods like Shelyn and Nethys, and all sorts of stuff in between.

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