Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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TriOmegaZero wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.
Neither of which are relevant to PF2E if Paizo decides they need to update their portrayal with the times. In much the same way the oppression of the Cult of the Dawnflower has been updated.

But 'updating portrayal with the times' is not their motivation for this move, exactly the opposite, any 'updating portrayal' is happening only because they made decision to make them a Core PC race. They are clear that the reason for this move was 'Golarion Goblins were popular uniquely Paizo-associated image'. Never mind that image never included normalizing as Core PC race, exactly the opposite, Goblins were anti-PC dysfunctional mooks, which trope Paizo just undermined.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, this is going to cause some PVP.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:
Dude, this is a fantasy world.

Thank you for reiterating my point. Paizo can change any damn thing they wish. You don't have to like it, but if Paizo says 1E goblins are a thing of the past, it's YOUR issue if you continue to play them like 1E. Not 2E's.

Shadow Lodge

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Quandary wrote:
But 'updating portrayal with the times' is not their motivation for this move, exactly the opposite, any 'updating portrayal' is happening only because they made decision to make them a Core PC race.

So what?

Silver Crusade

nohar wrote:
...it was mentioned before that goblin pcs would be addressed in an upcoming adventure path...

Does anyone have a source for this? I don't recall anything like it and would be interested to see what was said


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No history of goblins has ever been written by a goblin.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there all,

Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time.

We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game.

Hope that helps


They've always been a chaotic race as well, another strike against them. Wondering why they don't get a -2 to strength. I just can't picture a 18 Str Goblin and it seems so wrong.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I like this.

RE: +2 to Charisma: We're seeing stats for heroic PC goblins. That doesn't necessarily mean that the goblins in the Bestiary will have a high Charisma. (Also, I do hope that the goblins' promotion to PC race doesn't keep them out of the Bestiary.)

The one thing I would like to see in ancestries are some sample builds (i.e., wood elf with +2 Strength and Woodcraft, high elf with +2 Charisma and Elven Magic) that allow players to pick a package if they don't want to spend much time selecting ancestry feats.


[nonsense]Don't worry guys, PC don't really need lips. They're just like, uh, an abstraction, or something.[/nonsense]

Grand Lodge

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I look forward to seeing some goblins pc's in games. It sounds interesting to role play although I can imagine a lot of people not liking it especially the people who can't fantasy role play and always play humans. I played a goblin rogue in 3.5 Eberron and loved it though goblins were a more accepted race in that setting.


11 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Dude, this is a fantasy world.
Thank you for reiterating my point. Paizo can change any damn thing they wish. You don't have to like it, but if Paizo says 1E goblins are a thing of the past, it's YOUR issue if you continue to play them like 1E. Not 2E's.

Yeah, and guess what, they haven't said goblins have changed. At all. They've just said "Yeah, there's Drizzt equivalents in Goblin society; but nearly every other goblin is still a normal, run of the mill Golarion goblin".

Which was the current status quo. Where Goblins weren't a Core race. Why does a Drizzt clause make Goblins core, but not Drow? Or Orcs? Or Gnolls?

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time.

We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game.

Hope that helps

Can I ask why the opinions in setting have changed? Have Goblins done something amazing? Have they chosen, as a whole, to shift how their society works?

And also: yes, Goblins as PCs were part of "We be Goblins". Need I point out all those PCs were evil? At least, the ones presented in the module were.


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Goblins are going to give the new edition of Pathfinder something that really feels unique. I hope in a future AP we find out the goblins we have traditionally been seeing are not the end all be all of what goblins are in the world of Golarion. I am glad you are taking a chance here and I fully support it.

Silver Crusade

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PvP is a function of the player, not the race.

My gaming group has had a number of goblin PCs over the years, and it hasn't caused any problems.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yay, gobbos.
I suppose everyone saying how goblins will be attacked on sight disallow half-orcs and tieflings for the same reason?


TOZ wrote:
Quandary wrote:
But 'updating portrayal with the times' is not their motivation for this move, exactly the opposite, any 'updating portrayal' is happening only because they made decision to make them a Core PC race.
So what?

His point is wrong. Paizo tweaking portrayal of Cult of Dawnflower was not based on exploiting recognizable Paizo brand but watering it down for Core PC use.

Sovereign Court

20 people marked this as a favorite.

And as humanoids, goblins aren't evil to the their very essence like a demon, devil, or daemon is. They can make choices and are just as capable of being good or evil, same as humans. Humans, being the default or dominant ancestry on Golarion currently are rife with individuals and groups of all alignments. The Thrunes are dispicably evil as are the Umbral Court, the Blackfire Adepts, the Whispering Way, the Aspis Consortium, etc.

Do you not allow humans into your adventuring parties?

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors


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PCScipio wrote:

PvP is a function of the player, not the race.

My gaming group has had a number of goblin PCs over the years, and it hasn't caused any problems.

I'm happy for you. It sounds like you have a very nice group.

Grand Lodge

16 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:
Yeah, and guess what, they haven't said goblins have changed. At all.

If Jason can't convince you, I sure as hell ain't gonna bother trying.


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They've used goblins in their marketing material, the We Be Goblins series, for years now. For many new players, goblins are the introduction to Pathfinder. They pretty much have to include them as core at this point.


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So is anybody else planning on playing a Goblin PC in Return of the Runelords, or in the heretofore unnanounced AP that follows it (which is reportedly "a doozy") to establish a Goblin as one of the great heroes of Golarion, at least in your particular version thereof?

I mean "a particular goblin saves the world in a particularly showy way" is going to change a lot of people's minds, both in terms of how people think of goblins and in terms of how goblins see themselves.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time.

We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game.

Hope that helps

I think if you continue down this line of thinking and current mechanics you will find that "Not at my table!" will soon become directed at 2e instead of just at goblins.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

This is an interesting choice for a new Core race, maybe the most in-your-face challenge to players' habits. I don't know if it will work, but not because it's especially extraordinary. It's more that Golarion's attitude vs goblins could simply be a copy of the old attitude vs half-orcs, while the tinkering shtick is taken from old gnomes, and the sneakiness from halflings. So, if anything, the risk is lack of distinctiveness! We'll have to see the whole description of all races to see if that's a real problem.

I'm surprised how radical the rejection is in many posts on this thread. This is a fantasy game, I get folks are attached to their history (as I am), but are we all really this conservative?

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think what people are forgetting is that Adventurers are always the exception to the rule, they are by default exceptional.

Yes, Sandpoint has a bad history with Goblins. But if they saw one fighting against their own kind, side by side with a Tiefling Paladin, a Strix Vigilante, a half-Drow Undead Lord Cleric and his Skeleton companion, and a human Summoner and his Djinn Eidolon (all real characters from my campaigns) then they can adapt to the idea of a non-evil goblin.

So, I can’t tell you that banning them from your table is wrong since you know your table. But I can say that an inability to adapt the goblin to the campaign is a failure of imagination.

This, definitely this.

Dark Archive

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I do not like that goblins are in core. Mainly because it takes up a chunk of section that could have been for all the other normal core races especially now that from what it seems half-bloods are now just ancestry feats. Not to mention that it seems like you are going to need a lot of feats for each race to make any one member of a race seem different which is what it sounds like paizo is trying for.


Maybe there is going to be an anti-drow like event to introduce more social and compassionate goblins. Ones who have been hunted mercilessly by evil goblins


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TheFinish wrote:

Dude, this is a fantasy world. Goblins in Golarion were created when Lamashtu liberated four Barghests from Asmodeus' Kennels and the puppies started killing whatever they could. When they spilled human blood, the blood grew into goblins. The goblins promptly learned all the nice things they know from their parents, the Barghests.

They are an evil race. They've always been an evil race. To pretend otherwise is asnine.

Their depiciton so far in Goblins of Golarion and Advanced Race Guide is extremely relevant, because it has set how the race works in the setting. Since the setting is, ostensibly, remaining mostly the same, I feel I can call it out when you decide to retcon it.

And so far, I've been given no reason why golarion goblins make a good race except "Uh, just because.". Which, okay, you can do it. I can also say it's poorly done, which it is.

Actually, Advanced Race Guide is pretty dam useless because other material and references in that book have been flat out stated in other places to be wrong and errata'd.

Quote:
while the tinkering shtick is taken from old gnomes,

Nope. That shtick was always the goblins. Gnomes stick for Pathfinder was more fey orientated.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Jason's response didn't do a lot to re-assure me. In fact it made me wonder what's the point of a play test if the response to criticism is basically "we're moving forward" regardless. Then after stepping away for a bit I at least realized that golbins in or out (shouldn't) affect the viability of the rules of the game, and as long as they listen to feedback gathered during playtest on the mechanics its all good.

That said, Paizo is my favorite RPG publisher because of the quality of their writing, story-telling, and world building. Goblins in core still feels like a slap against all that in the name of "mass" appeal.


I'm not particularly excited about goblins becoming core races anymore than I was excited when Drow got popular back in the day and they started being included for players.

I have hopes that there is some in world explanation of what went on with the race other than people just got used to them.


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Personally, I'm fine with Goblins being a core race - more often than not I run home games and I try to avoid the narrative of "this particular race is uniquely known for their capacity of eating babies and slashing tires, everyone hates them", but I do agree that it, in the context of Golarion, it would be reassuring to know that something about goblin culture as a whole has changed that would, if nothing else, put their foot in the door as a culture that isn't, well, categorically chaotic evil.

We'll probably be getting something like this in Return of the Runelords, but considering the amount of controversy that's involved, some form of reassurance will probably be necessary to just staunch the flow of vitriol.


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Everything looks alright to me, although Very Sneaky doesn't seem real strong. I may be underestimating its usefulness, though, and withhold final judgment until of course I have the full rules.

Question for the devs: can we get ancestry feats in addition to class feats, or is it one or the other?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Yeah, and guess what, they haven't said goblins have changed. At all.
If Jason can't convince you, I sure as hell ain't gonna bother trying.

He doesn't have to convince me, but he's not trying to, and neither is the blog post.

I mean:

"The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity.

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand.

All this is telling me is that there's a few exceptions amongst Goblins that are actually good and can interact with other races. I am entirely fine with that.

This is also, incidentally, how it already was in Golarion. It was not enough to make Goblins a core race then. I am asking why is it now, and also, why Goblins, instead of other races who were in the same situation (Orcs, Drow) or races that were already widely accepted (Ratfolk, Catfolk, Aasimar, any of the elemental humanoids).


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Pretty excited about goblins, and people really need to calm down about them being playable races somehow being unacceptable. Part of what makes PCs is their being exceptional individuals, and goblins that are exceptions to their group are exactly what can make for an interesting character. If people are worried about Players RPing awful to deal with maniacs, that says more about the people they play with and their expectations of them than it does the race itself.

On the attributes, YES small race without a hit to strength! There has never been a good reason for small races to have less strength, they already have lower carrying capacity (I think? They should if they don’t) and have to use smaller, weaker weapons. Making them worse at melee was just insult to injury.

People complaining about them getting a boost to charisma I think are seeing charisma only as attractiveness and not as force of personality, which seems to be the direction 2E is trying to push it.

Looking forward to learning more about what Goblins can do and what options ancestries will offer!


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While I personally will probably never play a goblin PC, I have never stopped players from playing odd races. (I actively encourage it!) I like to role play possibilities added from playing a rare or normally evil race.

I do genuinely hope that we get all/most of the other monsters as PCs stat blocks in the first Bestiary for PF2.


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Frankly, all this goblin hate creeps me out for the sheer racism factor oozing out...
And I completely forgot what I was going to comment about when I saw all this.


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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Goblins are CORE because is fun, most of all for new players. We played with a Goblin Character (Vigilante) it was awesome. Also, after Ekkie from pathfinder society, everyone in my group wants Goblins to be available. Its marketable, its fun, come on guys, if you don't want them, then don't use them


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Wow, some people are taking the inclusion of Goblins way, way too seriously and personally. Don't like them? Don't include them in your game. Easy.
Now chill.


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"They're kind of like Lord of the Flies, but all the kids are on drugs."
~Me

Dark Archive

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Like any good gag, a little bit of goblin goes a long way. Having them suddenly in every other party, I suspect, will get cheesy, quickly. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. A drop of goblin for the win; a steady stream for persistent nausea.

Dark Archive

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I'm just annoyed if Goblins get "Recently they are now okay as adventurers" but Kobolds still get "KILL ON SIGHT NO MERCY" treatment :p


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I love this, love everything about it.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:
This is also, incidentally, how it already was in Golarion. It was not enough to make Goblins a core race then. I am asking why is it now, and also, why Goblins, instead of other races who were in the same situation (Orcs, Drow) or races that were already widely accepted (Ratfolk, Catfolk, Aasimar, any of the elemental humanoids).

And as Jason said, they hope to include more that answers your concerns. Here's to the playtest.


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I am excited for the inclusions of Goblins as a playable ancestry. I've never felt comfortable with the idea that certain creatures are always inherently evil. If every other playable race has the capacity to be anywhere on the alignment spectrum we shouldn't assume that monstrous creatures are all going to be evil aligned. Some of my most wonderful experiences in game have been when the party is confronted with a moral quandary that challenges their preconceived notions about a monster. I think this will be a thought provoking addition to the game and I'm looking forward to it.

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
I'm just annoyed if Goblins get "Recently they are now okay as adventurers" but Kobolds still get "KILL ON SIGHT NO MERCY" treatment :p

Most every table I've been at has been "yo, you don't try to stab us, we'll get out of your territory once we're done". Sadly, lot of kobolds don't take that offer seriously.


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I am terrified of what it means for PFS2. Really hope that goblins will be at least behind some boon-wall. I don't mind it for home games though, since many GMs, myself included, will just ban them any way.


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CorvusMask wrote:
I'm just annoyed if Goblins get "Recently they are now okay as adventurers" but Kobolds still get "KILL ON SIGHT NO MERCY" treatment :p
Kobolds haven't had the portrayal for a while. Most of the more fun instances where they appear they are either allies, completely sympathetic and you're the jerk, or a mixed bag.
Dryxxxa wrote:
I am terrified of what it means for PFS2. Really hope that goblins will be at least behind some boon-wall. I don't mind it for home games though, since many GMs, myself included, will just ban them any way.

Why do people think that banning them behind a boon wall would fix that? Its not like in PFS v1 it fixed that problem.

Sovereign Court

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Aren't hobgoblins more fitting as a core player race tho?


MadScientistWorking wrote:
Dryxxxa wrote:
I am terrified of what it means for PFS2. Really hope that goblins will be at least behind some boon-wall. I don't mind it for home games though, since many GMs, myself included, will just ban them any way.
Why do people think that banning them behind a boon wall would fix that? Its not like in PFS v1 it fixed that problem.

Because a boon wall would mean that I meet less goblins at PFS2 games I run. It's like being a priest of Rovagug in PFS 1: technically one could build that but I dare that person to walk the streets of Absalom with that unholy symbol at my table.

Edit: fixed quotation


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I am confused, the goblins were not there also in PF1? Why everyone talks about it as if it were a novelty?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Benjamin Medrano wrote:

I don't dislike the concept of a monstrous species in core. I'd be perfectly happy with hobgoblins, orcs, drow, or any number of classically evil species in core.

I 100%, utterly dislike the depiction of goblins in Golarion. I won't allow them, won't use them, and will leave any game I would have played in. I've never downloaded any of the We Be Goblins supplements because of it.

I like many of the things I've heard about PF2, and generally agree with most of the decisions that Paizo makes regarding their systems and world. That being said, this is one which I'm going to oppose. I'm not going to say they can't put it in, because they obviously can, but I'm not happy about it.

So... No PFS for you, then?

I personally have no real issue with this decision. It's their game, after all.

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