Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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For all the people saying "no goblins in my games" did y'all not have players itching to play some of the weirdest stuff in PF1?

If you can handle PCs who are Androids, Tieflings, Gathlains, Ghorans, Ratfolk, Wyvarans, Nagaji, Tengu, Hobgoblins, Astomoi, Cecaelias, Merfolk, Strix, etc. then you can handle PC goblins.

Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.


I'm confused by the concept of flexible stat boosts. If the intent is to eliminate the consequences of choosing particular Class/Ancestry combinations, surely it could be achieved more easily by omitting stat adjustments in the first place...

Grand Lodge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.

Yep. If you're not a part of a raid party/warband, you're just an oddity to be trusted as far as any other disreputable drifter.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I love goblins. I love making goblin PCs. I love exotic races.

But goblins as a core race makes absolutely no sense to me. I can think of a dozen races I'd rather have as core races, such as kitsune, kobolds, tengu, tieflings, aasimar, geniekin, catfolk, etc. All of these races are way more commonplace as adventurers and residents of major cities. Why make a monstrous race core, but not any of these races?


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QuidEst wrote:
Tallow wrote:

Main thing that I found interesting:

Speed is 25 feet. This seems to be something that could be wonky to deal with in several movement rules (unless those are all getting a major overhaul to not entirely work with speed.) Like Acrobatics for jumping, you typically get a +4 to the check for every 10 feet of speed over 30.

Additionally, having an odd number like this makes it irritating to divide by 2. Sure, its easy enough to say 10 because 12.5 rounds down to 10. But anytime you had to quarter 30 to 7.5 because of swimming or climbing, and then figure out whether that meant you could move 10 feet on a double move or 5 feet on a single but 15 feet on a double was annoying.

So I hope that if you are assigning some ancestries and monsters odd numbered movement speeds, that the system of halving or quartering speeds accommodates an easy way to calculate without having to worry about fractions rounding up or down or if you get to carry the fraction into a second action for movement to get that extra 5 feet or whatever.

It works out prettier if you think of it as moving five squares. Now you can cross ten squares in two moves, nice and simple.

Eh, I kind of liked moving twelve squares in two movements. Speed in multiples of ten let me plan movements in two square chunks to speed up my turn.

Whatever, I'll see where this new movement thing takes us.


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...This better mean that Kobolds are going to get buffed to not be the laughing stock of Golarion. I'm not against them being physically weak, but at least give them enough to not be a complete and utter joke.

Contributor

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Quote:
...spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth...

...wait, am I a goblin?

Quote:
Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia.

That's feels a little weird, as I was hoping ancestries would be a way to break from the 'ol "race = culture" trope; there's still time and unrevealed content that could prove that to be the case, but the phrasing here doesn't quite get there. Maybe if it were goblin tribes or goblin culture instead of creatures?

In any case, I'm looking forward to how Golarion and goblin society have changed so that goblin adventurers are a good fit. It's fertile creative ground, and you can do cool stuff with a big societal shift that gets more goblins out there, rather than just a handful of exceptional individuals!

Silver Crusade

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I already have a goblin PC in my Jade Regent game. It’s really not that hard to handle.
The players rescued him from the Soggy River Monster, and Mogo the goblin was very grateful to the Paladin of Sarenrae for saving him. So he joined up with the party, since most of his tribe was dead (mostly due to the party, and Mogo didn’t like them much anyway, tribe was always mean to Mogo).

When in town he’s always accompanied by another member of the party, and they vouch for him. He’s a valuable member of the caravan alternating between cooking and scouting duties. Mogo started as a rogue but learned of Sarenrae’s light from the Paladin and Fire Magic from the Druid and is now a Rogue/Pyrokineticist, very useful against the cold subtype monsters from the Crown of the World.

Mogo is still learning, isn’t great at impulse control and occasionally gets in trouble for stealing food when they get into towns. So occasionally the party pays for the food and for “damages”, but we’re talking a few extra silver pieces here and there.

I think what people are forgetting is that Adventurers are always the exception to the rule, they are by default exceptional.

Yes, Sandpoint has a bad history with Goblins. But if they saw one fighting against their own kind, side by side with a Tiefling Paladin, a Strix Vigilante, a half-Drow Undead Lord Cleric and his Skeleton companion, and a human Summoner and his Djinn Eidolon (all real characters from my campaigns) then they can adapt to the idea of a non-evil goblin.

So, I can’t tell you that banning them from your table is wrong since you know your table. But I can say that an inability to adapt the goblin to the campaign is a failure of imagination.


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Iiiinnteresting.

I genuinely have no idea what it means when people mention Kender (I know Kender are Dragonlance halflings, but that's it).

This is also a really interesting look at Ancestries if this is any indication of how they'll work.

At first I was a little weirded out by the Cha boost, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Pathfinder goblins might not be pretty, but they are bursting with personality (and I dislike reducing Charisma to just charm and looks).

Honestly, I can understand people not wanting goblins as player races, but it's hard to be upset about that as it's such an easy thing to house rule out of the game.


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2.0 is being framed as a direct, chronological sequel to 1.0, as opposed to just a revision of rules. This is evident from announcement that the last 1.0 AP will set up the world backdrop for the 2.0 core book, and that 2.0 will incorporate a number of post-AP into the setting (Cheliax being a site of political upheavel as a result of Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance, for example).

So is it really to hard to imagine goblin society evolving as the world evolves? While I'm less invested in 2.0 because I run Starfinder now, I'm 110% ready to throw down with some punny goblins by my side.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

For all the people saying "no goblins in my games" did y'all not have players itching to play some of the weirdest stuff in PF1?

If you can handle PCs who are Androids, Tieflings, Gathlains, Ghorans, Ratfolk, Wyvarans, Nagaji, Tengu, Hobgoblins, Astomoi, Cecaelias, Merfolk, Strix, etc. then you can handle PC goblins.

Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.

No, can't say I've had people wanting to play Cecaelias or Astomoi or Wyvarans or Merfolk. The rest, sure, but you know what differentiates them from goblins?

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

And this is coming from someone who played a goblin extensively in Skulls and Shackles. Golarion goblins do not a core race make.


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Fantastic! as a lover of erm.. Goblinses and Goblin kin I welcome this addition to the game and I am super excited to see the options available. all I can say is MORE GOBLINZ :)


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QuidEst wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

I know others are wondering this as I am, Why Charisma?

Would love to hear some of the thoughts/explanation why.

Should it be intelligence instead? Should goblins be getting double physical bonuses, with the option for triple, so that they're the ultimate martial?

Actually wis or int would make a lot of sense, given their love of blowing things up. They'd need some way of figuring out how to explode others and not themselves, with natural selection weeding out the non-int/wis based ones.

Cha means that they're supposed to be likeable and that reminds me of kender too damned much.


Their bite only does piecing damage, I hope that doesn't mean that is the standard for bite damage.

Liberty's Edge

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pjrogers wrote:
I still think this is a very, very bad idea. Goblins are a sadistic, funny once joke that will encourage the worst in player behavior. Giving them an ancestry feat like "Burn It" and making the iconic alchemist a goblin is only going to make things worse.

i have seen numerous players play goblins that liked fire and still were fine in a party , heck i might remake my pyro gnome as a pyro goblin in pf2


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I, for one, welcome our new goblin overlords!


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Usually this doesn't even get addressed in the games I play in.

I'm still not the biggest fan of goblins. (Except for the Roll With It feat, which is an excellent intersection of hilarious and mechanically useful.) They would not make my top 5 for new races to include in the core rulebook.

According to the D20PFSRD survey, goblins don't even crack the top 10, although some of that may be due to mechanical reasons.

It's nice to see some hints about how the ancestry system will work, though. Flexible ability scores are great.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

For all the people saying "no goblins in my games" did y'all not have players itching to play some of the weirdest stuff in PF1?

If you can handle PCs who are Androids, Tieflings, Gathlains, Ghorans, Ratfolk, Wyvarans, Nagaji, Tengu, Hobgoblins, Astomoi, Cecaelias, Merfolk, Strix, etc. then you can handle PC goblins.
Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.

Nothing to do with "monstrous" race, everything to do with disfunctional racial personality, the watering down of which to enable Core PC play ruins the very schtick which Paizo's Goblins were popular for in first place. All the comments here seem focused on that aspect, not "OMG it looks monstrous". Any of those you mention would be preferable exactly on this basis, you can see my previous comment positing Ratfolk as ideal choice, recognizing 'non-human' appearance as apparent niche to fill (given Elfs/Dwarfs/Halflings/Gnomess already strongly represent 'humanoid' appearance).

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TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Grand Lodge

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For all the "oh I'll just ignore this and won't have them in my Golarion" people. That doesn't help with PFS, which will now have goblin PCs. I suspect that we'll be overrun with them.

I think this is a terrible, horrible idea.

Not a fan of this at all.

New ancestry system seems ok. If the +2 to put whereever you want is universal, then this is good.

Apart from having goblins foisted on me, this seems good.


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I will admit surprise that it's not Aasimar who are a Core Ancestry now seeing that they also have a history going all the way back to Rise of the Runelords. I also wonder if there will be a half dozen Ancestry Feats given with each race that has the potential to be a PC... or even in general for races that can have class levels.

Silver Crusade

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By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.
Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Frankly "everybody freaks out at the monster in the party" gets tedious fast so you stop doing it if you even bothered to start.
Yep. If you're not a part of a raid party/warband, you're just an oddity to be trusted as far as any other disreputable drifter.

I would figure that rumors about a heroic goblin (along with cues for how to tell the difference between that one and other less-heroic goblins) would travel pretty fast among NPC communities who enjoy little more than gossiping about the PCs anyway.

I mean, most adventures start with an inciting incident that establishes the PCs as heroes. One could even play a goblin *in Rise of the Runelords* being established as a hero because she fended off the assault from those other goblins which she is in no way associated with. I would figure the residents of Sandpoint would accept some variant of "Humans from Varisia not same as humans from Irrisen, so why should all goblins be the same? I hate those Thistletop jerks." After this, word of "this goblin saved the day and is to be trusted" is going to get around.

Scarab Sages

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I love the idea of Goblins being a core race. The whole idea of "kill on sight" races is repugnant and I am glad to see v2 taking a step away from it. My first v2 PFS toon will likely be a goblin. Great idea and a great blog post giving us more details on it.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.

Goblins raid and steal because they are constantly hungry and if given a nonstop food supply would eat more than halflings ever dreamed of. Nor do they grow their own food if they can help it because they'll devour their own crops before they even ripen... as a snack.


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I hope the +2 stat bonus to put anywhere is universal and not limited to just goblins(or a few races in general).


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Riley Wildman wrote:
I genuinely have no idea what it means when people mention Kender (I know Kender are Dragonlance halflings, but that's it).

Kender are pretty infamous for encouraging bad gaming behavior due to their enforced cuteness and kleptomania.

This is probably the best explanation.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.

I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.


Blog wrote:

When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder.

So this sencence states that Goblins ans Alchemists will be in the Playtest Rulebook.

But will they be part of the final Core Rulebook? Doesn't sound like we can be sure.


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Quandary wrote:
Nothing to do with "monstrous" race, everything to do with disfunctional racial personality, the watering down of which to enable Core PC play ruins the very schtick which Paizo's Goblins were popular for in first place.

"I'm just RPing my character" is never an acceptable justification for a player choosing to play in such a way that makes the rest of the party have less fun, full stop. A player is always responsible for the choices they make. It's possible to play absolutely anything in a non-destructive fashion (want a Kender who is not a pain-in-the butt kleptomaniac? I've seen it), so when forced with the choice to be a positive contributor to the game or not, there's no excuse for making the wrong one.

Sure there are people you can't trust with some of the more difficult RP challenges, but that's a problem with those people not with these challenges.


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Well at least ancestry feats might open up game design options for unusual races like a playable dragon with a breath weapon that isn't limited 1-3 times a day and functions as the standard version.


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TheFinish wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.

To be fair, if society's policy was to kill you and members of your culture on sight, you'd behave in a manner they'd consider absolutely horrible too.

Silver Crusade

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Dragon78 wrote:
I hope the +2 stat bonus to put anywhere is universal and not limited to just goblins(or a few races in general).

I mean, Mark doesn't come out and say it here, and his post is compatible with the flexible ability boost being goblin only ... But it's also compatible with all ancestries getting the flexible boost and the praise he has for the flexibility suggests to me that everyone might get it:

Mark Seifter wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Really digging the flexible ability boost!
It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... ;)

Also, to repeat a caution I flagged upthread—it's probably not a strict +2:

Joe M. wrote:
Leedwashere wrote:
Of particular interest to me are the mechanical bits mentioned. I can dig the flexible ability score boost (it's one of the things I like most about PF1 humans), but I notice that for goblins that effectively means +2 to three stats and -2 to one. That's pretty significant. It makes me wonder what the character generation assumptions are if they're so generous with the ancestral stat bumps.

Note that the "ability boost" here is likely not a flat +2. The Leveling Up Blog states:

Leveling Up Blog wrote:
You'll also amp up several of your ability scores every 5 levels. The process might be familiar to those of you who've been playing Starfinder for the last several months! There are, of course, a few tweaks, and we made all ability boosts work the same way instead of being different at 1st level. Learn it once, use it in perpetuity.
So if it's like Starfinder, a boost will be +2 if applied to a score of 16 or lower and +1 if applied to a score that's 17 or higher.


Well, I suppose, there's some interesting info here on races in general. I can see why you included them, and it makes a kind of sense in Galorian.

I can't see allowing a race of homicidal psychopathic pyromaniacs as a PC option at my table. I just don't want to encourage my players to become murder hobos.

The Exchange

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It seems like a large amount of posters are taking this personally, somehow and/or did not read the post before bringing out their pitchforks. Personally this isn't the first ill liked ancestry or ancestry that would not fly in a certain area. I am excited for myself and others that want to play Goblins.


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Hrm.

While I am, of course, delighted to have the contributions of my people recognized*, I'm somewhat uncertain as to how, say, the good people of Sandpoint would react were I to amble into town for a hearty drink at the Hagfish... what with that whole business where my species attacked and murdered a few people there not that long ago in the grand scheme of things...

Certainly, I can see Absalom or Kaer Maga or even Oppara welcoming my cultural outreach lecture tour, but I rather expect that a visit to Isger might go... poorly. And of course, in light of recent unfortunate events, Nirmathas might prove a bit unwelcoming as well...

Hrm. I suppose that Tup chappie might have the right idea...

* I mean... nonevil goblin PCs have been happening for a long, long time now....

Grand Lodge

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TheFinish wrote:
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.

Neither of which are relevant to PF2E if Paizo decides they need to update their portrayal with the times. In much the same way the oppression of the Cult of the Dawnflower has been updated.

Shadow Lodge

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at first the +2 cha for goblins really shocked me...but then it got me wondering...does this mean that all the other ancestries are getting their good and bad stats adjusted?...this could be a good thing...especially the way building characters seems to have changed...

flavour wise the goblin text could just be a placeholder for the playtest...it was mentioned before that goblin pcs would be addressed in an upcoming adventure path...so it could be that the explanation and flavour in the actual 2e core book could be different since i doubt they'd give spoilers here for an ap that hasn't even been written yet...


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Nothing to do with "monstrous" race, everything to do with disfunctional racial personality, the watering down of which to enable Core PC play ruins the very schtick which Paizo's Goblins were popular for in first place.
"I'm just RPing my character" is never an acceptable justification for a player choosing to play in such a way that makes the rest of the party have less fun...

Nothing to do with my concern on this topic, in fact normalizing 'viably well-behaved Goblin PCs' IS my flavor concern.

Paizo did this based on "popularity" of Golarion Goblins, but that popularity was based on non-Core-viable disfunctional Goblins.
Which is why this decision seems poorly thought out on multiple levels, simple reduction to "check-box mentality" IMHO.


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I love goblins. Their so much fun. However their not core race material. Guess 2e wanted to copy 5e's core drow scandal.


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I'm withholding statements about what implications having Goblins as a core race has and how it affects Golarions lore, but I will say that, if you're part of a race that is almost universally despised by everyone around you, practically chomping at the bit to get you out of their storefront, wouldn't it make sense to have a boost to charisma to signify that you're at least aware that you're an outcast and work on your personality to compensate for it just to survive?


Quandary wrote:

Yeah, this whole thing smells like superficial poorly thought-out marketing-driven b!#+~@%~, no offence.

(snip)
I wrote previously how I felt Ratfolk would have been perfect choice: continuity with Starfinder, presence in various areas of Golarion (including other planets), alchemist inclination, overtly "non-human" (unlike dwarf/elf/halfling) yet undeniably capable to act cooperatively in society at large. Ratfolk had the makings of equally Paizo-distinctive RPG race, yet Paizo chose to destroy their iconic ANTI-PC dysfunctional Goblins in favor of making them a Core PC race. Pure and simply, ignoring the role and context of Goblins in world and what people liked them for, in favor of context-free "this is popular/recognizable, we will use it".

The only positive side I can see to this is there is still time for Paizo to change this decision.

+1, except that to my mind Ratfolk are really WFRP Skaven, and pretty clearly associated with Games Workshop...


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TheFinish wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.

A book written by humans assumes all goblins choose to be bad instead of considering the social pressures of living in a society that has been evil for millenia and a lifespan that rarely reaches a full decade, thus robbing our people of the opportunity to learn and grow.

Ya can't grow and change if you're spending your whole life tryin' not to get killed by longshanks, just because they won't share their tasty sheepies, piggos and chickems!


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Diego Hopkins wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.
To be fair, if society's policy was to kill you and members of your culture on sight, you'd behave in a manner they'd consider absolutely horrible too.

Again, we've no indication goblins have ever been anything but malicious little bastards. Nothing. I'm arguing from the point of everything that has been presented about them as a race in the products we have.

It's not "Oh, people don't like Goblins, so they act out." it's "Goblins are like this, they've always been like this, never tried to change, and that's why people don't like them."

TriOmegaZero wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.
Neither of which are relevant to PF2E if Paizo decides they need to update their portrayal with the times. In much the same way the oppression of the Cult of the Dawnflower has been updated.

Dude, this is a fantasy world. Goblins in Golarion were created when Lamashtu liberated four Barghests from Asmodeus' Kennels and the puppies started killing whatever they could. When they spilled human blood, the blood grew into goblins. The goblins promptly learned all the nice things they know from their parents, the Barghests.

They are an evil race. They've always been an evil race. To pretend otherwise is asnine.

Their depiciton so far in Goblins of Golarion and Advanced Race Guide is extremely relevant, because it has set how the race works in the setting. Since the setting is, ostensibly, remaining mostly the same, I feel I can call it out when you decide to retcon it.

And so far, I've been given no reason why golarion goblins make a good race except "Uh, just because.". Which, okay, you can do it. I can also say it's poorly done, which it is.

Grand Lodge

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I'm excited to see them as an in-game option, as are most of my players, but to be fair, a lot of them are relatively new to Golarion as a whole anyhow. I'm as pumped as my player base is for 2E, can't wait to see further reveals.


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Goblins as a core race, out of everything that's been revealed about 2e so far, is the single element that is just 100% a miss for me. My brain is flat-out rejecting the notion, like the way Agent Smith said people did with early iterations of the Matrix.


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I don't dislike the concept of a monstrous species in core. I'd be perfectly happy with hobgoblins, orcs, drow, or any number of classically evil species in core.

I 100%, utterly dislike the depiction of goblins in Golarion. I won't allow them, won't use them, and will leave any game I would have played in. I've never downloaded any of the We Be Goblins supplements because of it.

I like many of the things I've heard about PF2, and generally agree with most of the decisions that Paizo makes regarding their systems and world. That being said, this is one which I'm going to oppose. I'm not going to say they can't put it in, because they obviously can, but I'm not happy about it.

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