Fighter Class Preview

Monday, March 19, 2018

Over the past 2 weeks, we've tried to give you a sense of what Pathfinder Second Edition is all about, but now it's time to delve into some details on the classes. From now until the game releases in August, we'll go through the classes one by one, pausing now and then to look at various rules and systems. Today, let's take a look at one of the most foundational classes in the game: the fighter.

The fighter was one of the first classes we redesigned, alongside the rogue, cleric, and wizard. We knew that we wanted these four to work well in concert with each other, with the fighter taking on the role of primary combat character, good at taking damage and even better at dealing damage. The fighter has to be the best with weapons, using his class options to give him an edge with his weapons of choice. The fighter also has to be mobile, able to get into the fray quickly and hold the line, allowing less melee-oriented characters time to get into position and use their abilities without have to fend off constant attacks.

Let's start by looking at some of the features shared by all fighters.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn. Other classes can get this ability—and numerous monsters will as well—but only the fighter starts with it a core feature. Fighters also have feat choices that can make their attacks of opportunity more effective.

Next up, at 3rd level, you gain weapon mastery, which increases your proficiency rank with one group of weapons to master. Your proficiency rank increases to legendary at 13th level, making you truly the best with the weapons of your choice. At 19th level, you become a legend with all simple and martial weapons!

The fighter gets a number of other buffs and increases as well, but one I want to call out in particular is battlefield surveyor, which increases your Perception proficiency rank to master (you start as an expert), and gives you an additional +1 bonus when you roll Perception for initiative, helping you be first into the fight!

As mentioned in the blog last week, the real meat behind the classes is in their feats and (as of this post), the fighter has the largest selection of feats out of all the classes in the game! Let's take a look at some.

You've probably already heard about Sudden Charge. You can pick up this feat at 1st level. When you spend two actions on it, this feat allows you to move up to twice your speed and deliver a single strike. There's no need to move in a straight line and no AC penalty—you just move and attack! This feat lets the fighter jump right into the thick of things and make an immediate impact.

Next let's take a look at Power Attack. This feat allows you to spend two actions to make a single strike that deals an extra die of damage. Instead of trading accuracy for damage (as it used to work), you now trade out an action you could have used for a far less accurate attack to get more power on a roll that is more likely to hit.

As you go up in level, some of the feats really allow you to mix things up. Take the 4th-level feat Quick Reversal, for example. If you are being flanked and you miss with your second or third attack against one of the flankers, this feat lets you redirect the attack to the other target and reroll it, possibly turning a miss into a hit!

We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game. To recap, you take an action to raise your shield and get its Armor Class and touch Armor Class bonuses, and then you can block incoming damage with a reaction while the shield is raised. At 6th level, fighters can take the feat Shield Warden, which allows them to use their shield to block the damage taken by an adjacent ally. At 8th, they can even get an extra reaction each turn, just to use shield block one additional time. (And yes, they can spend this extra reaction on another use of Shield Warden.) At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

The fighter also has a wide variety of options with ranged weapons, allowing you to deal more damage up close or fire more than one arrow at a time. I foresee a lot of fighters taking Debilitating Shot, which causes a foe to be slowed if the attack hits (causing it to lose one action on its next turn).

And all this is a small sample. We've made a conscious effort to give fighters a number of paths they can pursue using their feats: focusing on shields, swinging a two-handed weapon, fighting with two weapons, making ranged attacks, and fighting defensively. These paths are pretty open, allowing you to mix and match with ease to create a fighter that matches your play style.

The goal here is to give you a variety of tools to deal with the situations and encounters you are bound to face. You might walk into a fight with your bow and open with Double Shot, allowing you to fire a pair of arrows into the two nearest foes, only to swap over to using a greataxe when the rest surround you, making an attack against all enemies in your reach with Whirlwind Strike! It all comes down to the type of fighter you want to play.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Fighters Pathfinder Playtest Valeros Wayne Reynolds
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That has a lot to do with the difference in center grip shields. They are used lot more activly than strapped ones. Center grip shield relies heavily on parries, but because it is usually held at an arms lenght it can't be heavy. That is why they are fairly easy to break. Some have suggested that lack of metal rims was also used to catch peoples weapons(not intentionally, more a feature nice if it happens.)

Liberty's Edge

Bluenose wrote:
I believe there was a Viking form of duelling where the participants had a sword and three shields, and when all the shields were broken had they had to defend themselves without one. Mind you, Norse shields lacked a metal rim (usually, at least, according to grave finds) which was pretty unusual, so they may have been less resilient.

Yup! And, as I mentioned above, apparently the folks at Paizo have taken this idea to heart and shields are intended to be somewhat disposable this edition.

Which is pretty neat, like I said.

Bluenose wrote:
The only all-metal shields I'm aware of are bucklers in the Renaissance. Anything larger would be heavy and unwieldy.

Yeah, that was always the impression I got as well. The vast majority of shields were basically plywood.

Silver Crusade

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
BretI wrote:

Buy several cheap, wooden shields. Get a shield bearer to carry your spares.

One shield per combat!

This is probably not how it's gonna work out mechanically, but it'd be super historically accurate if it did. Swords were passed down in family lines sometimes, but shields seldom lasted through a single major battle.

Of course, the idea of actual metal shields (as opposed to wood with a metal covering) is also pretty laughable from a realism standpoint, and I don't come to Pathfinder for realism...but I do always find it amusing when it stumbles into realism and then people complain that's ridiculous. :)

I believe there was a Viking form of duelling where the participants had a sword and three shields, and when all the shields were broken had they had to defend themselves without one. Mind you, Norse shields lacked a metal rim (usually, at least, according to grave finds) which was pretty unusual, so they may have been less resilient.

The only all-metal shields I'm aware of are bucklers in the Renaissance. Anything larger would be heavy and unwieldy.

13th warrior has a great scene for that.

*nods*

So did the first season of Vikings.


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Rysky wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
BretI wrote:

Buy several cheap, wooden shields. Get a shield bearer to carry your spares.

One shield per combat!

This is probably not how it's gonna work out mechanically, but it'd be super historically accurate if it did. Swords were passed down in family lines sometimes, but shields seldom lasted through a single major battle.

Of course, the idea of actual metal shields (as opposed to wood with a metal covering) is also pretty laughable from a realism standpoint, and I don't come to Pathfinder for realism...but I do always find it amusing when it stumbles into realism and then people complain that's ridiculous. :)

I believe there was a Viking form of duelling where the participants had a sword and three shields, and when all the shields were broken had they had to defend themselves without one. Mind you, Norse shields lacked a metal rim (usually, at least, according to grave finds) which was pretty unusual, so they may have been less resilient.

The only all-metal shields I'm aware of are bucklers in the Renaissance. Anything larger would be heavy and unwieldy.

13th warrior has a great scene for that.

*nods*

So did the first season of Vikings.

That on was good to. You know what that show was missing? Antonio Banderas. (I keed I keed)


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
I believe there was a Viking form of duelling where the participants had a sword and three shields, and when all the shields were broken had they had to defend themselves without one. Mind you, Norse shields lacked a metal rim (usually, at least, according to grave finds) which was pretty unusual, so they may have been less resilient.

Yup! And, as I mentioned above, apparently the folks at Paizo have taken this idea to heart and shields are intended to be somewhat disposable this edition.

Which is pretty neat, like I said.

Bluenose wrote:
The only all-metal shields I'm aware of are bucklers in the Renaissance. Anything larger would be heavy and unwieldy.
Yeah, that was always the impression I got as well. The vast majority of shields were basically plywood.

I like the idea of shields being a lot less static. I'm all for this!


It will probably end up sort of like Zelda Skyward Sword, honestly. The lower tier shields are the realistic ones that get damaged and are disposable, but unrealistically because it's a game can be repaired by your friendly local blacksmith / spellslinger. The upper tier starmetal etc shields will be the unrealistic D&D shields that are basically invincible and you can hold onto them.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them implement something like regeneration into any shield that has an enchantment, so your money investment isn't immediately broken in combat.

Grand Lodge

If there is still Mithral and Darkwood, I see them becoming more popular...and valuable.


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*straps a rust monster to arm* Who’s going through equipment too fast now, huh?

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:

It will probably end up sort of like Zelda Skyward Sword, honestly. The lower tier shields are the realistic ones that get damaged and are disposable, but unrealistically because it's a game can be repaired by your friendly local blacksmith / spellslinger. The upper tier starmetal etc shields will be the unrealistic D&D shields that are basically invincible and you can hold onto them.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them implement something like regeneration into any shield that has an enchantment, so your money investment isn't immediately broken in combat.

Living steel shields would now be worth their price!

(I really like Living Steel as a material, even if it never was very useful)

Silver Crusade

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Elfteiroh wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

It will probably end up sort of like Zelda Skyward Sword, honestly. The lower tier shields are the realistic ones that get damaged and are disposable, but unrealistically because it's a game can be repaired by your friendly local blacksmith / spellslinger. The upper tier starmetal etc shields will be the unrealistic D&D shields that are basically invincible and you can hold onto them.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them implement something like regeneration into any shield that has an enchantment, so your money investment isn't immediately broken in combat.

Living steel shields would now be worth their price!

(I really like Living Steel as a material, even if it never was very useful)

Yeeeeeeeeees, I have a whole forest of it in my homebrew.


Fighter Build

Highest skill to lowest
Combat skills

Sword master
Athletics
Acrobatics
Casting cross class- I know this will be lagging behind casters, but since very thing from weapon skills to skills to casting will now have ranks, I see no reason my fighter could not learn to cast a few cantrips and low level spells even if he will not be as good as the wizard. The same was a wizard could use a sword but not as good as a fighter.
Stealth

None Combat skills

Weapon smith
Crafting magical weapons
Healing

The kind of character I am trying to build is a hero from the early RPG video games like FF7, Lufia, and Secrets of the Stars. These characters were good a melee, and had some spell caster ability.

I can make this kind of character in PF1, it comes on line around level 9, complete around level 11. It is usable at level one. I use a mix of magus, fighter, and barbarian. I could do this kind of build with just core, using fighter, cleric, and barbarian.


Looking at the new levels of success system, adding your shield bonus to a reflex throw could potentially be huge. Given that crit fails for saves will be really bad (Given their lower likelihood) and will happen often if your reflex is poor, it could mean the difference between life or death if fighting face to face with a dragon or if you're moving in on an enemy blaster. If anything, it could mean you don't crit fail on anything but a one.

The Exchange

dragonhunterq wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Rek Rollington wrote:

The change to Power Attack makes sense in a system where extra hitting power means more critical hits. It may not function like the old Power Attack but it still fits the name. It's now a bigger, slower attack taking too actions.

The raise shield thing is interesting, but I hope we can add more to it. Like taking a feat that allows you to do a shield bash and raise your shield in a single action. Then you could do a Power Attack + Shield Bash in a single turn and have your shield up. That would be fun.

Raising your shield can be done as a reaction (I'm pretty sure) for fighters, so you can still:

2 action: Power Attack
1 action: Shield Bash
reaction: Raise Shield
but then you can't AoO, that is not acceptable to me.

I like it because it forces you to make a choice each round. I honestly don't see my sword and shield fighter using shield bash every single round or power attacking every single round or needing my AOO every round.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Tradeoffs like shield bash vs. AoO are what make tactical gameplay interesting from round to round. Otherwise, everyone just stands still and swings.


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UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:

"Legendary"

Or, as I call it "time to throw out your rulebooks, because 'that pat-rothfuss b%&%+*%#' has infected your game and there's no cure".

Wait, what do you mean? If it's about Legendary proficiency being not "grounded", then you don't have to really worry about that until lvl 13, which is after when stuff stops being gritty and realistic anyways.


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I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.


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"How dare my super-hero/mythic-tier character act like a super-hero/mythic-tier character like everyone else in the party regularly rather than just side-occurrences!"


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Frosty Ace wrote:
Looking at the new levels of success system, adding your shield bonus to a reflex throw could potentially be huge. Given that crit fails for saves will be really bad (Given their lower likelihood) and will happen often if your reflex is poor, it could mean the difference between life or death if fighting face to face with a dragon or if you're moving in on an enemy blaster. If anything, it could mean you don't crit fail on anything but a one.

My problem with it is that even if mathematically it's strong, it really isn't very interesting. Weapon Specialization is strong but I despise that feat for the same reason, all it does it pump numbers and nothing more. At 14th level you should be able to protect yourself and everyone standing behind you from the blast, or you should be able to reflect it back to its source. A regular ol' +numbers is something that should be base line in the proficiency system rather than something you're forced to invest in.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Frosty Ace wrote:
Looking at the new levels of success system, adding your shield bonus to a reflex throw could potentially be huge. Given that crit fails for saves will be really bad (Given their lower likelihood) and will happen often if your reflex is poor, it could mean the difference between life or death if fighting face to face with a dragon or if you're moving in on an enemy blaster. If anything, it could mean you don't crit fail on anything but a one.
My problem with it is that even if mathematically it's strong, it really isn't very interesting. Weapon Specialization is strong but I despise that feat for the same reason, all it does it pump numbers and nothing more. At 14th level you should be able to protect yourself and everyone standing behind you from the blast, or you should be able to reflect it back to its source. A regular ol' +numbers is something that should be base line in the proficiency system rather than something you're forced to invest in.

Agreed. This is why I feel the shield to Reflex should be available more around level 4-6, with the 14th level options being Shield of Spell Reflection and other awesome deeds.

Silver Crusade

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Pllllllllllease Paizo, let us play tennis with the spellcasters.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.

Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match, and lacking the grapple feats, would not be effective whatsoever in subduing the rhino.

Whereas the spellcaster casts a spell and subdues the rhino with an easily failed Reflex or Will save, with no risk to the spellcaster whatsoever.

Trust me, Fighters in PF1 are gritty and realistic because they are more in the thick of it than a spellcaster would be, and don't have any class-related tools that scale and properly deal with situations like the above.

Silver Crusade

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.
Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match,

... a rhino's CMD is only 20, and the example Fighter has a CMB of +19...


Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.
Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match,
... a rhino's CMD is only 20, and the example Fighter has a CMB of +19...

Not only that but 2d6+9 at +8 is a pathethic attack against a Lvl 14 Fighter. You'd be better off tickling them.

Seriously, didn't someone already run the numbers showing high-level Valeros could punch a Rhino to death without issue even though he lacks....basically everything needed to make unarmed a powerful option? As well as being an iconic and thus not very optimised.


Yeah I am sure the +8 attack bonus is enough for that AoO to hit the level 14 fighters AC. Even without magical items and no shield, odds are that the rhino is more likely to miss than hit. And with the HP related to damage I am sure the fighter could wait untill a round that the rhino misses.

Also Rhinos CMD is 20, STR 20 level 14 fighter assuming no size modifier will succeed on anything but nat 1. I am sure someone could do the excat math how long on average it takes for the fighter to subdue a rhino in a grapple. But does it really matter if it takes 15 seconds or a minute. Either way the character in guestion is superhuman.


Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.
Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match,
... a rhino's CMD is only 20, and the example Fighter has a CMB of +19...

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Silver Crusade

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.
Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match,
... a rhino's CMD is only 20, and the example Fighter has a CMB of +19...

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

...


Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.
Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match,
... a rhino's CMD is only 20, and the example Fighter has a CMB of +19...

Plus a fighter at level 14 can manage a 28+ armor class easily so the rhino's AoO is only going to hit on a roll of 20. So like I said, practically effortless (and it's always been this way.)


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?

Silver Crusade

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Milo v3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?

It's bad for the player playing the rhino I guess?

*shrugs*

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?

The GM putting a CR4 creature against the 14th Level fighter is the problem, because it can be easily overpowered.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yeah, a level 14 fighter should be going up against more powerful foes befitting a legendary hero.


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That... kind of misses the point of the example.

Grand Lodge

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Which is irrelevant to the point that a 14th level fighter can wrestle a rhino to the ground without breaking a sweat, meaning he is NOT a gritty hero in the realm of normal human physical capability.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.


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Indeed, one could view the fact that a 5000 lb mammal with a spike for goring on its snout poses absolutely no threat to a higher level martial is itself proof that the system never intended to be realistic.

Like there are vanishingly few real humans who can punch a hippopotamus into unconsciousness, but this is not a big ask for Pathfinder characters.


Milo v3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?

Because if we put a relevant CR 14 enemy against that fighter, he'd still struggle without investment.

Liberty's Edge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?
Because if we put a relevant CR 14 enemy against that fighter, he'd still struggle without investment.

Well, of course. But the point of the example wasn't that the Fighter is mechanically awesome, it's that the rules already include Fighters doing epic and impossible things (like wrestling rhinos) so letting them do such things in a mechanically useful way doesn't change how unrealistic they are.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, a level 14 fighter with 20 strength in PF1 with no feats devoted to grappling or other combat maneuvers can trivially grapple a rhinoceros. So let's not pretend that fighters are supposed to be gritty and realistic even into the higher levels, since they never were.

Yeah, that's wrong. The rhino would get an attack of opportunity that does significant damage, and have a ton of CMD that the Fighter, without magic items, could not match, and lacking the grapple feats, would not be effective whatsoever in subduing the rhino.

Whereas the spellcaster casts a spell and subdues the rhino with an easily failed Reflex or Will save, with no risk to the spellcaster whatsoever.

Trust me, Fighters in PF1 are gritty and realistic because they are more in the thick of it than a spellcaster would be, and don't have any class-related tools that scale and properly deal with situations like the above.

I have accomplished nothing...


I like the idea of different weapons being suitable for different parts of the fight. That adds flavor. I would say you should consider different fighting styles in the way you have for monks. Anything that takes the players away from, "I attack again, I roll my die, I hit, I do this much damage, my turn is done" as opposed to, "I lunge forward in the dragon form, smashing my shield into the intervening goblins face to knock him aside, then plunge my glowing blade deep into chest of the orc behind him, driving him stumbling back into his companions while shouting, 'For The Light!'. So dragon form stance, lunge, shield bash, thrust and intimidate could be a preperation feat, 3 types of attack action and a reaction. Add as much flavor as you can to the mechanics of the combat and the fighters will come alive. So more weapons, more descriptions, more situations, more movement. Real melee combat is fluid and chaotic, not generally repetitive except in specialized situations. The feats and tactics of fighters should support that dynamism instead of encouraging them to stand in one place so they can make the most attacks to generate the most damage.


That's mostly semantics. The game engine still needs to function like a game engine.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Oops.

Bad encounter design is bad then.

Why is it bad that a Level 14 fighter can easily overpower a CR 4 enemy?
Because if we put a relevant CR 14 enemy against that fighter, he'd still struggle without investment.
Well, of course. But the point of the example wasn't that the Fighter is mechanically awesome, it's that the rules already include Fighters doing epic and impossible things (like wrestling rhinos) so letting them do such things in a mechanically useful way doesn't change how unrealistic they are.

Then I don't see the point of this comparison, when the entire game is designed to be unrealistic from the start. All this proves is that Fighters can defeat under-CR'd encounters, which isn't a very unrealistic expectation since every class can do it. Even commoners can do that!

Silver Crusade

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Hi goalpo-bye goalposts.


Goalposts deserved to be moved because people forgot where the goalposts actually were. Fighters being unrealistic because the entire game and system they are in is unrealistic isn't really saying much about the fighter doing amazing/unrealistic things in that system, when everyone can do the same thing in that system, even commoners that regular people in real life will most likely emulate.

In other words, high level characters being trivially superior to low level characters says nothing about the fighter class being unrealistic, when you can use any other class besides fighter and have the same result of unrealistic expectations, which instead creates a "new norm."

Grand Lodge

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So you admit that you are using a different metric for 'gritty and realistic'?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Trust me, Fighters in PF1 are gritty and realistic because they are more in the thick of it than a spellcaster would be, and don't have any class-related tools that scale and properly deal with situations like the above.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

So you admit that you are using a different metric for 'gritty and realistic'?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Trust me, Fighters in PF1 are gritty and realistic because they are more in the thick of it than a spellcaster would be, and don't have any class-related tools that scale and properly deal with situations like the above.

Absolutely. Spellcasters are pampered wimps who have one feature that solves everything. Fighters have little to no answers that any other class can't solve in an identical way. Compared to everything else, Fighter is the most mundane class in the game with little to no unique or fantasy solutions.

Grand Lodge

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Alright, we can ignore you now that it is clear you are arguing a completely different subject.


I'm confused. How did the rhino get involved?


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Malachandra wrote:
I'm confused. How did the rhino get involved?

Point: Fighters in PF2 aren't going to be realistic and gritty like PF1 fighters were, because of legendary skills and the like.

Counterpoint: All the really outrageous stuff for fighters is gated at high levels in PF2, and at high levels PF1 fighters could easily do stuff like "suplex a rhino" or "punch out a hippo" without any training or expertise.

In a "gritty realistic setting" 20 1st level commoners with mauls would pose a threat to a player character. 20 1st level commoners with mauls have never posed a threat to a 14th level Pathfinder character.

Shadow Lodge

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Probably territorial disputes.


Malachandra wrote:
I'm confused. How did the rhino get involved?

Because "fighters are unrealistic" in a game that is specifically designed to be unrealistic, whereas if we used the "unrealistic everything" as a new norm, Fighters would be significantly more atypical and in-line with realism than any other published class, which has been my original point this whole time.

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