Fighter Class Preview

Monday, March 19, 2018

Over the past 2 weeks, we've tried to give you a sense of what Pathfinder Second Edition is all about, but now it's time to delve into some details on the classes. From now until the game releases in August, we'll go through the classes one by one, pausing now and then to look at various rules and systems. Today, let's take a look at one of the most foundational classes in the game: the fighter.

The fighter was one of the first classes we redesigned, alongside the rogue, cleric, and wizard. We knew that we wanted these four to work well in concert with each other, with the fighter taking on the role of primary combat character, good at taking damage and even better at dealing damage. The fighter has to be the best with weapons, using his class options to give him an edge with his weapons of choice. The fighter also has to be mobile, able to get into the fray quickly and hold the line, allowing less melee-oriented characters time to get into position and use their abilities without have to fend off constant attacks.

Let's start by looking at some of the features shared by all fighters.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn. Other classes can get this ability—and numerous monsters will as well—but only the fighter starts with it a core feature. Fighters also have feat choices that can make their attacks of opportunity more effective.

Next up, at 3rd level, you gain weapon mastery, which increases your proficiency rank with one group of weapons to master. Your proficiency rank increases to legendary at 13th level, making you truly the best with the weapons of your choice. At 19th level, you become a legend with all simple and martial weapons!

The fighter gets a number of other buffs and increases as well, but one I want to call out in particular is battlefield surveyor, which increases your Perception proficiency rank to master (you start as an expert), and gives you an additional +1 bonus when you roll Perception for initiative, helping you be first into the fight!

As mentioned in the blog last week, the real meat behind the classes is in their feats and (as of this post), the fighter has the largest selection of feats out of all the classes in the game! Let's take a look at some.

You've probably already heard about Sudden Charge. You can pick up this feat at 1st level. When you spend two actions on it, this feat allows you to move up to twice your speed and deliver a single strike. There's no need to move in a straight line and no AC penalty—you just move and attack! This feat lets the fighter jump right into the thick of things and make an immediate impact.

Next let's take a look at Power Attack. This feat allows you to spend two actions to make a single strike that deals an extra die of damage. Instead of trading accuracy for damage (as it used to work), you now trade out an action you could have used for a far less accurate attack to get more power on a roll that is more likely to hit.

As you go up in level, some of the feats really allow you to mix things up. Take the 4th-level feat Quick Reversal, for example. If you are being flanked and you miss with your second or third attack against one of the flankers, this feat lets you redirect the attack to the other target and reroll it, possibly turning a miss into a hit!

We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game. To recap, you take an action to raise your shield and get its Armor Class and touch Armor Class bonuses, and then you can block incoming damage with a reaction while the shield is raised. At 6th level, fighters can take the feat Shield Warden, which allows them to use their shield to block the damage taken by an adjacent ally. At 8th, they can even get an extra reaction each turn, just to use shield block one additional time. (And yes, they can spend this extra reaction on another use of Shield Warden.) At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

The fighter also has a wide variety of options with ranged weapons, allowing you to deal more damage up close or fire more than one arrow at a time. I foresee a lot of fighters taking Debilitating Shot, which causes a foe to be slowed if the attack hits (causing it to lose one action on its next turn).

And all this is a small sample. We've made a conscious effort to give fighters a number of paths they can pursue using their feats: focusing on shields, swinging a two-handed weapon, fighting with two weapons, making ranged attacks, and fighting defensively. These paths are pretty open, allowing you to mix and match with ease to create a fighter that matches your play style.

The goal here is to give you a variety of tools to deal with the situations and encounters you are bound to face. You might walk into a fight with your bow and open with Double Shot, allowing you to fire a pair of arrows into the two nearest foes, only to swap over to using a greataxe when the rest surround you, making an attack against all enemies in your reach with Whirlwind Strike! It all comes down to the type of fighter you want to play.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Fighters Pathfinder Playtest Valeros Wayne Reynolds
501 to 550 of 1,122 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dαedαlus wrote:
jimthegray wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
What if we don't want to use shields? Can we trade out the 8th and 14th level abilities for other abilites?
Even levels are class feats, odd levels are fixed features. The blog was just describing when those feats become available- you'd only pick them if you wanted to focus on shields.

That's not what it reads like to me.

And another thing, why do we have to raise our shields every turn? In a real fight people have their shields raised at all times, they don't lower and raise them over and over again.

no in real life using a shield in a fight is normally an active activity that requires focus
Have you.... ever fought with a sword and shield? Because that's really not true. Holding a shield is about as intuitive as it gets. Almost immediately after picking one up and learning proper shield stance, it becomes more of a subconscious thing. It required more effort to drop the thing than it is to block with it.

i fought with several different kinds in my youth and i disagree with you its something you need to keep focus and pay attention to , certainly larger shields require less movement but you still need to actively fight with it


tivadar27 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Sure, but completely nixing consistency so the dice are the only thing that matter is not necessarily better design by virtue.

Are enemy hp scaled to account for this?
Do I add proficiency to damage?

Do I rely on critical hits to roll so much dice that my minimum expected values make up for it?

I want this information, not insults.

Weren't you the one criticizing me for flipping out over skill variance when the information we had on them was incomplete? :-P

We can discuss how much variance an attack should have (I'd prefer around 50/50), but we currently don't know much/anything about static adds to damage. We know there will be an ability modifier for Strength as a flat add. We know that magic weapons add a damage die. We know that criticals also double your flat bonus... But that's about it.

Also, I'm much less concerned about rolling 6d6 than I am 3d12. If anything, I'd like to see d12's go away, as the variance there is way too high.

Mathematically speaking, skills are now more consistent. The game was even called out by the devs to say consistency was the goal.

There seems to be a disconnect here.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm confused about what possible fighter-specific hype you could derive from the preview. It sounds identical to the PF 1 fighter (weapon mastery, feat every even level), the only things that seem to have changed are the that weapon and armor mastery are generic features everyone can get (but you get weapon master two levels early), and a bunch of basic mechanics were ripped out of the engine and turned into fighter feats. The feats that don't do that would be totally ordinary and expected in PF1 (where some of them even already exist).

None of this is really any different, and none of it addresses real problems with the fighter, least of all the expiration date on "mundane fight man" as a character concept.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Mark/Jason/any other devs willing to weigh in on this - Does Power Attack improve with either Class Level or Weapon Proficiency?

First page of the thread. It looks like Power Attack automatically progresses to "2 additional damage dice" on some criterion, presumably level or proficiency.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jimthegray wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:
jimthegray wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
What if we don't want to use shields? Can we trade out the 8th and 14th level abilities for other abilites?
Even levels are class feats, odd levels are fixed features. The blog was just describing when those feats become available- you'd only pick them if you wanted to focus on shields.

That's not what it reads like to me.

And another thing, why do we have to raise our shields every turn? In a real fight people have their shields raised at all times, they don't lower and raise them over and over again.

no in real life using a shield in a fight is normally an active activity that requires focus
Have you.... ever fought with a sword and shield? Because that's really not true. Holding a shield is about as intuitive as it gets. Almost immediately after picking one up and learning proper shield stance, it becomes more of a subconscious thing. It required more effort to drop the thing than it is to block with it.
i fought with several different kinds in my youth and i disagree with you its something you need to keep focus and pay attention to , certainly larger shields require less movement but you still need to actively fight with it

This is a combat style issue, not a hard one-way-or-the-other, I've fought with shields that you hold in a specific position (close to the body, and re-position whole body to adjust blocks) and ones that you move constantly. So both of you are right, or wrong, depending on your training, and shield.

Which is why I argue against an action to "raise your shield" in combat. If you're simplifying combat, you want to abstract something like this, not take the most penalizing, and most complicated route. In PF1 a shield was a flat bonus, now its dependent on an action, that isn't simplification, it also nerf's melee again.

This does not bode well for PF2.


Dear Paizo,

I have a GM's question! The new tactical options are wonderful. How is the fighter's social aspect being addressed with PF2e, or could "martial and social" be a separate post, or...?

Thank you for your time, and for the work you've done so far.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I feel like that the fix to the "Martial/Caster disparity" isn't done on a class by class basis, but instead via the new proficiency system (specifically master and legendary level proficiencies).

Since it's not like C/MD just affected fighters to begin with.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The real issue for whether a shield should require an action is balance, not realism. Is +2 AC and the option for absorbing a blow worth an action? Given that +2 AC reduces your hits by 10%, reduces your crits by 10%, and increases critical fail attacks by 10%, it might very well in combo both alone and in combination with later feats (such as the riposte one - at least 10% of your -10 attack actions you gave up, more if you're attacked more than once in a round, will earn you a riposte reaction at presumably a much higher attack bonus). I suspect shield and riposte are a very strong combination, leaving aside feats that directly improve the shield capability itself.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The info available so far sounds less than appealing to me. The closest thing to filling any of the many, many gaps existing fighters have is the mention of Debilitating Shot, and that still doesn't seriously help unless there are a ton of 3-action spells.

Where's the ability to smash stuff and thereby create difficult terrain for enemies? Where's the ability to interrupt movement over a large area so the fighter can actually bodyguard the wizard? Where's the ability to force enemy movement? Where's literally anything that actually helps the fighter do anything beyond "attack and deal and damage"?


Xenocrat wrote:
The real issue for whether a shield should require an action is balance, not realism. Is +2 AC and the option for absorbing a blow worth an action? Given that +2 AC reduces your hits by 10%, reduces your crits by 10%, and increases critical fail attacks by 10%, it might very well in combo both alone and in combination with later feats (such as the riposte one - at least 10% of your -10 attack actions you gave up, more if you're attacked more than once in a round, will earn you a riposte reaction at presumably a much higher attack bonus). I suspect shield and riposte are a very strong combination, leaving aside feats that directly improve the shield capability itself.

I still think that increasing the AC bonuses shields grant would be a good idea; there was very little reason in P1e to invest in a light shield when the buckler granted the same bonus with fewer drawbacks. This is similar to how the Morningstar, due to how it was cheaper, lighter, and did more damage types, completely overshadowed the Heavy Mace in all fronts. Getting rid of these equipment imbalances would be incredibly beneficial and would remove the feeling that certain options are explicitly inferior to others, especially since both the Morningstar and Buckler examples are holdovers from 3.5e.


Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.

We don't know if spell ranges have been refluffed. Presumably, since Mark Seifter hinted at various anti-flight feats, there may be the ability to take out fly-boy Wizard. If nothing else I'm sure Franky-fighter man can put an arrow through him.

Look forward to figuring all of this out in August.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Roadie wrote:

The info available so far sounds less than appealing to me. The closest thing to filling any of the many, many gaps existing fighters have is the mention of Debilitating Shot, and that still doesn't seriously help unless there are a ton of 3-action spells.

Where's the ability to smash stuff and thereby create difficult terrain for enemies? Where's the ability to interrupt movement over a large area so the fighter can actually bodyguard the wizard? Where's the ability to force enemy movement? Where's literally anything that actually helps the fighter do anything beyond "attack and deal and damage"?

They said combat maneuvers are still in, and supposedly decent at all levels. Kinda wanna see this to see what the Fighter will really be capable of, since I figure he'll be the best at them.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?


William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?

I guess the question is "what kind of a shield bonus is a level 14 character going to be rocking". If it's +2 it might not be much (but the math is different now, so it might be) but if it's like +6 that would be handy. We also don't know what else that ability does, if anything.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
ChibiNyan wrote:
They said combat maneuvers are still in, and supposedly decent at all levels. Kinda wanna see this to see what the Fighter will really be capable of, since I figure he'll be the best at them.

I can't trust this estimation until I see the spell list, because if they repeat stuff from PF1 then wizards will get just-as-good combat maneuvers with no investment as soon as spells like Black Tentacles are available.

Paizo Employee Designer

17 people marked this as a favorite.
QuidEst wrote:

Thinking about it, the -2 makes some sense. Running away from the Fighter should do something, otherwise there’s no point in running. I guess the optimal fleeing is guarded step, double move.

Ah, that also shows some nice value for Sudden Charge! Because you can move three times and attack, nobody can escape you.

You know, I’m suddenly rather interested in a mobile Fighter. That could be fun. I hope there’s a solid way to threaten an extra five feet, so AoOs are hard to avoid.

We had a crazy chase/fight up a spiral staircase in my Shattered Star playtest game where the Sudden Charging fighter was chasing a rat-form wererat, kicking off the walls and over her ratty-form to block her off while the wererat would squeeze through the fighter and continue upward (the rat was faster but was slowed down by not always succeeding to squeeze through the fighter). They eventually dropped her low enough to cry mercy just at the top of the stairs. The fighter mentioned that it was one of the craziest and coolest action scenes he had seen in a long time, and I was thinking it seems like the kind of fight scene they would choreograph in a kung fu movie.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?

At 14th level I'd expect a martial-type character to reflect the fireball back at its caster, plant their shield and create an area the dragon breath just doesn't get to hit at all, blow out the fire like Superman, or absorb the effect with their anti-magic muscles. Something, anything cool enough to fit with what that level is supposed to mean- that they've surpassed mere mortals and are now competing with planar super-beings for stakes like the world. "One of your defenses is slightly better sometimes against certain threats" is woefully inadequate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?

It’s one of those things that seems weaker than it is, I suspect. Bonuses to saves are about twice as good as they used to be (because you can crit fail/succeed saves). If there had been a combat feat for +4 to Reflex saves vs. damage in Pathfinder, I’d have taken that. If it’s more, it’s even better.


QuidEst wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
It’s one of those things that seems weaker than it is, I suspect. Bonuses to saves are about twice as good as they used to be (because you can crit fail/succeed saves). If there had been a combat feat for +4 to Reflex saves vs. damage in Pathfinder, I’d have taken that.

There actually is, there are ways to add your shield bonus in PF1 to both touch AC and Reflex saves already.

And fighters can add weapon training to Reflex saves.

If you want your PF1 fighter to have amazing reflex saves, you can have amazing reflex saves.

It does however, cost you two feats and/or a feat and an Advanced Weapon Training option.


master_marshmallow wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
It’s one of those things that seems weaker than it is, I suspect. Bonuses to saves are about twice as good as they used to be (because you can crit fail/succeed saves). If there had been a combat feat for +4 to Reflex saves vs. damage in Pathfinder, I’d have taken that.

There actually is, there are ways to add your shield bonus in PF1 to both touch AC and Reflex saves already.

And fighters can add weapon training to Reflex saves.

If you want your PF1 fighter to have amazing reflex saves, you can have amazing reflex saves.

It does however, cost you two feats and/or a feat and an Advanced Weapon Training option.

Ah, yeah- I should have said “without feat prerequisites”. As soon as there’s a prerequisite, it’d be +2 per feat, and no longer worth the trouble.

Paizo Employee Designer

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Planpanther wrote:
TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Flying magic man in the sky rains down fire death, while if I put up my shield as an action, I get a bonus to reflex saves.

FMM spends one action to concentrate on Fly so he doesn't plummet to the ground.

FMM now has a choice, spend 2 actions for a decent spell, or spend an action to move and 1 action for a single magic missile dart.

Also, Normal Fighter Dude, with Master Grade Athletics (so, lvl 7) has literally been said in a blog preview to be able to leap into the air and smash flying foes to the ground.

FMM needs to rethink his plan.

You can get master proficiency by level 7....yikes.

This particular aerial combo is an ability available exclusively to fighters, and it is available in the level range of master (pre-legendary), but that doesn't mean you can have the whole thing going at a particular level. You'll at least get some anti-aerial options around the time the wizard is first able to fly.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I really do love all the 'Having to raise my shield is terrible' talk. One way or another using a shield is active. Are you moving your body to get the shield in the right position to block an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Are you moving your arm to put your shield in the way of an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it.

Not to mention there is one other step here that people aren't getting yet. Swing, swing, block is not a bad thing in this edition. Forgoing that -10 swing is forgoing a 50% increased chance to fumble and possibly get slapped for it while increasing your AC by (lets say 2) 2 and decreasing your chance to be crit by 10%. That's not a terrible action.

Now we have Expert, Master, Legendary equipment that for weapons gives a +1, +2, or +3 to hit. Possible that will transfer to shield AC. Then suddenly that +2 for raise shield is not a +5 for raise shield and the chance to be crit went down 25%.

Paizo Employee Designer

12 people marked this as a favorite.
Aratrok wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
At 14th level I'd expect a martial-type character to reflect the fireball back at its caster, plant their shield and create an area the dragon breath just doesn't get to hit at all, blow out the fire like Superman, or absorb the effect with their anti-magic muscles. Something, anything cool enough to fit with what that level is supposed to mean- that they've surpassed mere mortals and are now competing with planar super-beings for stakes like the world. "

It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Save bonuses in the vein of the shield block are worth more in 2e because of the critical success and failure rules. Not necessarily a lot more - we need more details to be sure - but since it seems like a critical success against an AoE effect basically negates the attack entirely, getting a bonus that makes that more likely is valuable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kiln Norn wrote:

I really do love all the 'Having to raise my shield is terrible' talk. One way or another using a shield is active. Are you moving your body to get the shield in the right position to block an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Are you moving your arm to put your shield in the way of an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it.

Not to mention there is one other step here that people aren't getting yet. Swing, swing, block is not a bad thing in this edition. Forgoing that -10 swing is forgoing a 50% increased chance to fumble and possibly get slapped for it while increasing your AC by (lets say 2) 2 and decreasing your chance to be crit by 10%. That's not a terrible action.

Now we have Expert, Master, Legendary equipment that for weapons gives a +1, +2, or +3 to hit. Possible that will transfer to shield AC. Then suddenly that +2 for raise shield is not a +5 for raise shield and the chance to be crit went down 25%.

I fully agree with this. We don't know enough about the 'equipment' side of shields at this point and this may change a lot of things about the benefit of raising one's shield.

Regarding the changes of the fighter and what we can guess of the interactions with the new action economy and some things said about the combat maneuvers being improved, I like it a lot.

Two thumbs up for the Power Attack revision. I currently have a chainsaw-wielding Barbarian in the AP I'm DM'ing and I'm seeing problems with the P1 Power Attack all right


PossibleCabbage wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
I guess the question is "what kind of a shield bonus is a level 14 character going to be rocking". If it's +2 it might not be much (but the math is different now, so it might be) but if it's like +6 that would be handy. We also don't know what else that ability does, if anything.

I guess that line holds more than meets the eye, at least I hope so. What I really hope to see this time is a chance to completely block a fireball even at the cost of my own HP. Like saving the damsel in distress from a a dragon's breath, something like this (for some unknown reason the img was hard to link), pure awesomeness. Hm, now that I think about it... maybe this kind of feature will be left for other class to take...


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matthias W wrote:
Logistics! Setting up a bivouac, increasing the party's collective bulk capacity and/or overland speed with their knowledge of proper procedure. Lowering the chances of a wandering monster encounter through knowledge of where enemies are likely to set up an ambush.

I love that idea! Very soldier-y, feels really right for a Fighter to me.

I wonder how much of the narrative abilities for the Fighter which people are looking for will be talked about in the potential Downtime blog? It seems like that's a place where those abilities would fit nicely.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aratrok wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
At 14th level I'd expect a martial-type character to reflect the fireball back at its caster, plant their shield and create an area the dragon breath just doesn't get to hit at all, blow out the fire like Superman, or absorb the effect with their anti-magic muscles. Something, anything cool enough to fit with what that level is supposed to mean- that they've surpassed mere mortals and are now competing with planar super-beings for stakes like the world. "One of your defenses is slightly better sometimes against certain threats" is woefully inadequate.

Pretty much this. A reflex bonus would of been useful in his career 8 or 9 levels ago, instead the fighter raises his shield and the BBEG lauaghs and casts maze instead, or power word blind, or mass hold person etc.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Kiln Norn wrote:

I really do love all the 'Having to raise my shield is terrible' talk. One way or another using a shield is active. Are you moving your body to get the shield in the right position to block an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Are you moving your arm to put your shield in the way of an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it.

Not to mention there is one other step here that people aren't getting yet. Swing, swing, block is not a bad thing in this edition. Forgoing that -10 swing is forgoing a 50% increased chance to fumble and possibly get slapped for it while increasing your AC by (lets say 2) 2 and decreasing your chance to be crit by 10%. That's not a terrible action.

Now we have Expert, Master, Legendary equipment that for weapons gives a +1, +2, or +3 to hit. Possible that will transfer to shield AC. Then suddenly that +2 for raise shield is not a +5 for raise shield and the chance to be crit went down 25%.

This, and the comments about new Power Attack being terrible make me think a lot of folks aren’t sure how to evaluate PF2’s combat math yet and are still thinking in terms of PF1 math. Trading one attack at -10 (which remember, turns what would have been a crit into a regular hit, what would have been a regular hit into a miss, and what would have been a miss into a fumble) for an automatic +1 damage die on your regular attack is great. Heck, trading in your attack at -5 for that is pretty decent. Trading either for +2 AC might or might not be a good move on it’s own, but don’t forget that it also gives you the ability to use your Reaction to reduce incoming damage if you do get hit. Not to mention the various Feats that expand on what you can do with a shield.

I think sword-and-board Fighter sounds incredibly tactical and fun in this edition. Between your longsword and your shield, you’ve got all three basic weapon damage types covered, and you’ve got so many options for your actions! Move and power attack, charge and raise your shield... If you’ve got that reactive shield Feat you can even use your action for an extra attack at -5 and only raise your shield in response to an attack that lands within a 2-point threshold to turn a crit into a hit, a hit into a miss, or a miss into a fumble. And if you’ve also got the one that gives you a second Reaction to use on your shield... I can definitely see why they gave Valeros a shield.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
Matthias W wrote:
Logistics! Setting up a bivouac, increasing the party's collective bulk capacity and/or overland speed with their knowledge of proper procedure. Lowering the chances of a wandering monster encounter through knowledge of where enemies are likely to set up an ambush.

I love that idea! Very soldier-y, feels really right for a Fighter to me.

I wonder how much of the narrative abilities for the Fighter which people are looking for will be talked about in the potential Downtime blog? It seems like that's a place where those abilities would fit nicely.

Yeah

At least some of the narrative things people are asking for (like getting castles and such), are things really more appropriate for downtime rules which are going to be now included in the core rulebook.

Same thing with proficiency and skills. I don't think fixing narrative power is going to be done on a class by class level, but rather be a larger fix to the system

Paizo Employee Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Charlaquin wrote:
I think sword-and-board Fighter sounds incredibly tactical and fun in this edition. Between your longsword and your shield, you’ve got all three basic weapon damage types covered, and you’ve got so many options for your actions! Move and power attack, charge and...

It's been fun and effective in my experience; My sword and shield agile style fighter did great in our bevy of level 9 playtests, and in our level 17 playtest, we had one fight where we started out in a really challenging position and Mike playing the sword and board paladin wound up tanking the entire fight (equivalent difficulty to a CR+3 epic challenge in PF1) for a few rounds until the casters could recover from the terrible positioning and rain down hell (almost literally, the rain is literal, not the hell).


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.

Iron Heart Surge returns! Take that, Dying! And you too, “subject to gravity”!


5 people marked this as a favorite.
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.
Iron Heart Surge returns! Take that, Dying! And you too, “subject to gravity”!

UGH SUNLIGHT IS BLINDING ME! GYAAAAAAAAH!!! *explodes sun*


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Reposting from another thread. I think it's a tenuous idea until we know all the math, but I like the idea of a passive bonus that gets better with an action. That said, I'd be fine with it if it doesn't turn up, as long as the action feels useful enough. I just really like it thematically.

Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

So just thinking of what I would like to see for shields. I could see expanding this list, but it's a basic idea

1) all shields apply 1/2 their bonus to your AC while equipped. Taking the action applies the full bonus

2) bucklers +1
Shield +2
Tower shield +4

3) give each type a reaction to differentiate them
Bucklers: counter-punch?
Shield: block
Tower shield: take cover?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

13 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:


It's been fun and effective in my experience; My sword and shield agile style fighter did great in our bevy of level 9 playtests, and in our level 17 playtest, we had one fight where we started out in a really challenging position and Mike playing the sword and board paladin wound up tanking the entire fight (equivalent difficulty to a CR+3 epic challenge in PF1) for a few rounds until the casters could recover from the terrible positioning and rain down hell (almost literally, the rain is literal, not the hell).

It was nightmarishly fun... And if you've been following this thread since the beginning, you may have noticed that my two playtest characters who've been discussed so far were both sword and board types. So if you happen to be concerned about the action economy and effectiveness of shields, I had so much fun with a 9th level dwarf axe and shield fighter and was so effective with him that when it came time for the 17th level playtest, I decided that the paladin I was playing needed to go sword and board as well so I could play with that style some more on a different and higher level chassis.

The amount of damage I was able to absorb/negate was awesome, including from attacks that just didn't hit, potential crits that were reduced to standard hits, damage that went to my shield instead of me, etc. I was also dealing out really solid damage with both characters, so it rarely felt like I was throwing away damage in exchange for using that shield; to the contrary almost every time I chose to make a desperation swing with that last action instead of using my shield, I ended up wishing I'd used my shield instead.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

24 people marked this as a favorite.

One thing that I think we could explain a bit better is the fact that every character has a breadth of options open to them when it comes to social and out of combat abilities. Some come from classes whose theme and purpose aligns closely with those parts of the game. For those classes, they usually get some additional choices so that they do not feel that they are lacking in combat ability (sacrificing social for combat, or vice versa).

That said, everyone has access to skills, skill feats, and general feats that allow you to tune your character to perform in the way that you want outside of combat (exploration mode and downtime mode). We will be looking at the modes of play on Friday and I am going to sneak in some information on this topic then to give you a sense of what's out there.


I'd like to write a program simulating a bunch of fights between a sword and board fighter and a 2 handed weapon fighter. I would give them the same HP and the Same STR and the Same AC, except the shield bonus. The fight takes place entirely in melee (duel style)where the sword and board guy spends an action to raise a shield and power attacks every turn and the two handed fighter just power attacks, then attacks normally. The sword and board guy get's to use his reaction to soak a hit. I'd like to see who wins more often.

I will then run the simulation where the sword and board fighter ALWAYS has his shield raised and therefore, gets to attack once more per turn.

I will probably ignore the "dents" system, as I don't expect the fight to last long enough to matter.

The only problem I have is that I am not entirely sure of the mechanics involved here. If the devs would like to help me out with this, that would be great. If they don't want to reveal this information yet, I understand.

What I would need to do this is:

1) A reasonable STR bonus for two fighters at the same level. (+3?)
2) A reasonable AC, without a shield for two fighters at the same level. (15?)
3) A basic shield's AC bonus and hardness for the mechanic. (+2/9?)
4) A reasonable number of HP for two fighters of the same level. (20?)
5) A reasonable Attack bonus for two fighters of the same level. (+4?)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Since we're on the topic of shields... I mean, *can* we get bucklers? I believe there was some mention earlier that they weren't in. Even if they added half the AC (+1), but potentially let you use that arm for something (spellcasting, 2H attack), I think it would add a lot of fun/flavor. You might have to balance this out against reactive shield, sure, but I've always liked bucklers as an option in 1E (you're welcome to rename them properly to targe if you'd like, but at this point I enjoy the mistake :-P).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And also tower shields, have they been redone?

Paizo Employee Designer

17 people marked this as a favorite.
ChibiNyan wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.
Iron Heart Surge returns! Take that, Dying! And you too, “subject to gravity”!
UGH SUNLIGHT IS BLINDING ME! GYAAAAAAAAH!!! *explodes sun*

The sun is not a spell or basic condition. One of our big design goals is to precisely define the game terms we use and then use them to mean the same thing each time. It's something that we worked hard to do and something that even now the editors are helping us to improve even further!

Goes to designer/editor chat and looks at the latest batch coming in right now!


tivadar27 wrote:
Since we're on the topic of shields... I mean, *can* we get bucklers? I believe there was some mention earlier that they weren't in. Even if they added half the AC (+1), but potentially let you use that arm for something (spellcasting, 2H attack), I think it would add a lot of fun/flavor. You might have to balance this out against reactive shield, sure, but I've always liked bucklers as an option in 1E (you're welcome to rename them properly to targe if you'd like, but at this point I enjoy the mistake :-P).

Yes, Rondelero Fighters better still be a thing!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.
Iron Heart Surge returns! Take that, Dying! And you too, “subject to gravity”!
UGH SUNLIGHT IS BLINDING ME! GYAAAAAAAAH!!! *explodes sun*

The sun is not a spell or basic condition. One of our big design goals is to precisely define the game terms we use and then use them to mean the same thing each time. It's something that we worked hard to do and something that even now the editors are helping us to improve even further!

Goes to designer/editor chat and looks at the latest batch coming in right now!

Keywords do go a long way! Craziest things in PF happen when the wording is ambiguous! I don't care if it feels 4e-ish, RAI and RAW should be the same.


Since there's no swashbuckler in the playtest, will there be a fighter archetype that allows for a light, nimble fighter with social skills, or will that require a fighter / rogue multiclass character?

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If you ask me P1e's skills and damage were too consistent in most cases, up to the point that the dice didn't matter at all for many cases. Skill bonuses frequently got to the point where you didn't have to roll to auto-pass, and static damage was so strong that many turns became a check to see how many attacks hit so you'd know if you had to roll those dice or not. Even though it's fun to succeed, it's less fun (for me at least) if success / victory is more of a mathematical certainty than a die roll that you can influence to a degree based on your build choices. From what I've seen so far P2e's math is being tightened up a bit, and that coupled with the +/-10 crit mechanic may fix my issues with skills becoming a formality. If the system also strikes a better balance between damage dice and static damage I'll be one happy camper.


Mark Seifter wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's a mathematically useful ability, but not one that is obviously powerful without access to more of the system, and maybe not as impressive for a preview as the other feats in the preview. Its contemporary level 14 feat, Determination, is pretty much the last thing in your example: Your fighter training just lets you shrug off a spell or condition entirely.
Iron Heart Surge returns! Take that, Dying! And you too, “subject to gravity”!
UGH SUNLIGHT IS BLINDING ME! GYAAAAAAAAH!!! *explodes sun*

The sun is not a spell or basic condition. One of our big design goals is to precisely define the game terms we use and then use them to mean the same thing each time. It's something that we worked hard to do and something that even now the editors are helping us to improve even further!

Goes to designer/editor chat and looks at the latest batch coming in right now!

I was all but certain this was the case. My group will still enjoy making jokes based on the vagueness of Iron Heart Surge. We watched Gurren Lagan, and shouted “Iron Heart Surge, (condition)!” whenever a character did something over the top.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LuniasM wrote:
If you ask me P1e's skills and damage were too consistent in most cases, up to the point that the dice didn't matter at all for many cases. Skill bonuses frequently got to the point where you didn't have to roll to auto-pass, and static damage was so strong that many turns became a check to see how many attacks hit so you'd know if you had to roll those dice or not. Even though it's fun to succeed, it's less fun (for me at least) if success / victory is more of a mathematical certainty than a die roll that you can influence to a degree based on your build choices. From what I've seen so far P2e's math is being tightened up a bit, and that coupled with the +/-10 crit mechanic may fix my issues with skills becoming a formality. If the system also strikes a better balance between damage dice and static damage I'll be one happy camper.

I agree, and from what I've seen Pathfinder 2's renewed focus on "mitigating damage" (rather than merely "avoiding hits") means that there's less need for "doing catastrophic damage ASAP" and extending combats (because you didn't roll high for damage, say) is less dangerous.


Dragon78 wrote:

Personally power attack shouldn't be a feat but something anyone can do.

I rather like it as a feat, and I'd like it more as a martial-specific feat.


Dragon78 wrote:
So the fighter is the only one that starts with attacks of opportunity? does that mean AoO is a feat?

My guess is that it's what Combat Reflexes is going to be in PF2nd.

Kiln Norn wrote:
I really do love all the 'Having to raise my shield is terrible' talk. One way or another using a shield is active. Are you moving your body to get the shield in the right position to block an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Are you moving your arm to put your shield in the way of an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it.

If you really want to go that route there's an equally valid argument that can be made for the opposite. A well versed enough fighter would have largely honed his fighting technique into reflexes, thus not really requiring "active thought".

Or a more mundane example. Say you're riding a bike. You're not consciously thinking about every single movement your leg makes in order to propel the bike forward.

Kiln Norn wrote:
Not to mention there is one other step here that people aren't getting yet. Swing, swing, block is not a bad thing in this edition. Forgoing that -10 swing is forgoing a 50% increased chance to fumble and possibly get slapped for it while increasing your AC by (lets say 2) 2 and decreasing your chance to be crit by 10%. That's not a terrible action.

I would argue you're misrepresenting what most critics of the shield are concerned about (I can only truly speak for myself course, so mild speculation is at play). You're not 'only' giving up that -10 attack, you're giving up every other tactical option as well. Want to Attack, make a guarded step forward and attack again? Alright, but then the shield is not really doing anything. Want to use the shield? Ok, now it eats up that one action, so if you want/need to move on your turn you're down to one attack. And if you use the shield reaction, you can't do AoO's until after your next turn.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
master_marshmallow wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
William Werminster wrote:
Blog wrote:
At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.
Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?
It’s one of those things that seems weaker than it is, I suspect. Bonuses to saves are about twice as good as they used to be (because you can crit fail/succeed saves). If there had been a combat feat for +4 to Reflex saves vs. damage in Pathfinder, I’d have taken that.

There actually is, there are ways to add your shield bonus in PF1 to both touch AC and Reflex saves already.

And fighters can add weapon training to Reflex saves.

If you want your PF1 fighter to have amazing reflex saves, you can have amazing reflex saves.

It does however, cost you two feats and/or a feat and an Advanced Weapon Training option.

but in OPF passing the Ref save by 10 does not give you evasion. That is why bonuses in NPF are always better: no longer a binary paradigm of success/failure


1 person marked this as a favorite.
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:

Personally power attack shouldn't be a feat but something anyone can do.

I rather like it as a feat, and I'd like it more as a martial-specific feat.

Indeed "swing real hard" is a thing anyone can do, sure, but "Swing real hard, effectively, without hurting your accuracy" is a thing that should require quite a bit of training.

Like I can swing a golf club pretty hard, but I'm liable to miss the ball entirely when I try to swing as hard as I can, even if I make contact it's unlikely the ball will go where I want it to. So because I am not a very good golfer I have to focus on accuracy more than power. I feel like this is a reasonable analogy for power attack.

501 to 550 of 1,122 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Fighter Class Preview All Messageboards