Fighter Class Preview

Monday, March 19, 2018

Over the past 2 weeks, we've tried to give you a sense of what Pathfinder Second Edition is all about, but now it's time to delve into some details on the classes. From now until the game releases in August, we'll go through the classes one by one, pausing now and then to look at various rules and systems. Today, let's take a look at one of the most foundational classes in the game: the fighter.

The fighter was one of the first classes we redesigned, alongside the rogue, cleric, and wizard. We knew that we wanted these four to work well in concert with each other, with the fighter taking on the role of primary combat character, good at taking damage and even better at dealing damage. The fighter has to be the best with weapons, using his class options to give him an edge with his weapons of choice. The fighter also has to be mobile, able to get into the fray quickly and hold the line, allowing less melee-oriented characters time to get into position and use their abilities without have to fend off constant attacks.

Let's start by looking at some of the features shared by all fighters.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn. Other classes can get this ability—and numerous monsters will as well—but only the fighter starts with it a core feature. Fighters also have feat choices that can make their attacks of opportunity more effective.

Next up, at 3rd level, you gain weapon mastery, which increases your proficiency rank with one group of weapons to master. Your proficiency rank increases to legendary at 13th level, making you truly the best with the weapons of your choice. At 19th level, you become a legend with all simple and martial weapons!

The fighter gets a number of other buffs and increases as well, but one I want to call out in particular is battlefield surveyor, which increases your Perception proficiency rank to master (you start as an expert), and gives you an additional +1 bonus when you roll Perception for initiative, helping you be first into the fight!

As mentioned in the blog last week, the real meat behind the classes is in their feats and (as of this post), the fighter has the largest selection of feats out of all the classes in the game! Let's take a look at some.

You've probably already heard about Sudden Charge. You can pick up this feat at 1st level. When you spend two actions on it, this feat allows you to move up to twice your speed and deliver a single strike. There's no need to move in a straight line and no AC penalty—you just move and attack! This feat lets the fighter jump right into the thick of things and make an immediate impact.

Next let's take a look at Power Attack. This feat allows you to spend two actions to make a single strike that deals an extra die of damage. Instead of trading accuracy for damage (as it used to work), you now trade out an action you could have used for a far less accurate attack to get more power on a roll that is more likely to hit.

As you go up in level, some of the feats really allow you to mix things up. Take the 4th-level feat Quick Reversal, for example. If you are being flanked and you miss with your second or third attack against one of the flankers, this feat lets you redirect the attack to the other target and reroll it, possibly turning a miss into a hit!

We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game. To recap, you take an action to raise your shield and get its Armor Class and touch Armor Class bonuses, and then you can block incoming damage with a reaction while the shield is raised. At 6th level, fighters can take the feat Shield Warden, which allows them to use their shield to block the damage taken by an adjacent ally. At 8th, they can even get an extra reaction each turn, just to use shield block one additional time. (And yes, they can spend this extra reaction on another use of Shield Warden.) At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

The fighter also has a wide variety of options with ranged weapons, allowing you to deal more damage up close or fire more than one arrow at a time. I foresee a lot of fighters taking Debilitating Shot, which causes a foe to be slowed if the attack hits (causing it to lose one action on its next turn).

And all this is a small sample. We've made a conscious effort to give fighters a number of paths they can pursue using their feats: focusing on shields, swinging a two-handed weapon, fighting with two weapons, making ranged attacks, and fighting defensively. These paths are pretty open, allowing you to mix and match with ease to create a fighter that matches your play style.

The goal here is to give you a variety of tools to deal with the situations and encounters you are bound to face. You might walk into a fight with your bow and open with Double Shot, allowing you to fire a pair of arrows into the two nearest foes, only to swap over to using a greataxe when the rest surround you, making an attack against all enemies in your reach with Whirlwind Strike! It all comes down to the type of fighter you want to play.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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It seems like extra damage dice must multiply on a crit in PF2e as well.

Otherwise Power Attack and magic weapons fall way behind at higher levels.


OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Can anybody give me an actual example of how two weapon fighting is going to work in the play test? Has anybody on the dev team or in a podcast mentioned it? Or bows? I think Gorbacz asked about bows in another thread much earlier on - can you shoot with every action? Or how about a crossbow? Is the base shoot, load shoot, then load shoot load, then shoot load shoot etc?

Nope, no TWF details yet. The iconic Ranger has been changed to a dual-wielding style (wielding two of the same weapon), though, so it hasn’t been removed like in Starfinder.

Crossbows have been confirmed to be firing every other action, giving that 1-2, 2-1 pattern. (Alchemists are the same way without a class feat.)


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Zaister wrote:
I'm also wondering, what is this "narrative power" you want the fighter to have? What kind of abilities are you imagining there?

I think the faster access to higher Perception proficiencies is a good start, and could easily be extended to Athletics, Intimidate, and Heal, or whatever their equivalents are.

Logistics! Setting up a bivouac, increasing the party's collective bulk capacity and/or overland speed with their knowledge of proper procedure. Lowering the chances of a wandering monster encounter through knowledge of where enemies are likely to set up an ambush.

Crafting arms and armor.

Bonus ancestry and/or skill feats.

Building a fortress and attracting 10d6 fighting men. Stuff that slots into whatever kingdom management minigame we have this edition. Generalship!


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Personally power attack shouldn't be a feat but something anyone can do.


Dragon78 wrote:
Personally power attack shouldn't be a feat but something anyone can do.

I’d go with “shouldn’t have been”, since the math assumed it. This version, if handed out for free, would shift balance towards big weapons even further.

Actually... given that some people miss old PA, and it’s not as strong (better for small weapons too), you could probably give old PA out as an ability everyone gets. “Desparate attack”, perhaps? That’d be a nifty house rule for playing with people coming from PF1.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Blasters are considered and have always been considered not optimal uses of spell slots exactly because they rely on variable dice and cannot guarantee numbers.

This is incorrect. Blasters are not optimal because the damage they do, on average, is far less than the damage done by a two-hander. If you think dice rolls are the cause of this, look at kineticists, who are all about rolling lots of dice, they do just fine.

I'll back what seems to be a majority here by saying I'd prefer the simplified system 2e presents if it reduces the number of "I got a 15 on my attack roll, no wait, 16, no wait, 17"... From a human perspective, in most cases it's not the addition that's the issue, it's remembering all the bonuses that are out there and how they affect you. Good/Thorough players can prepare for much but not all of this, but bad/new players won't/can't.

The suggestion that the new system is all about randomness I think is incorrect here. I think the 3-action economy makes the system much more about strategy. Figuring out what your character can do in the moment and executing it. Yes, better numbers/choices on your sheet are going to help this, but much of it may be situational. I think this is a change for the positive.

Dark Archive

Mark/Jason/any other devs willing to weigh in on this - Does Power Attack improve with either Class Level or Weapon Proficiency?


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Two things I like from this though:

1. Cementing more that AoO aren’t just all the rage in this game. Those were dumb in the first game and punished movement. You can get them and do cool things with it but it’s not going to be this minesweeper like maze clogging up the battle. Also it saves time not having to deal with the wizard having an attack in those cases. Now people who believably could train for AoO can have it.
2. Power attack basically being vital strike from PF1. I thought power attack might change given their push for accuracy meaning crits. This is now confirmed. Between magic weapons adding die and power attack adding die this means static bonuses are lower and we get to roll more dice. I like that! They seem to be doing a good job of reducing static bonuses and instead having feats give you special things you can do. Between my first point and this it looks like combat is going to be far more fluid and have movement be part of it.

1 thing not sure on:
Why -2 penalty on AoO? Doesn’t seem like it adds much for book keeping. I mean I can understand why it would be less accurate than your first attack, but also am not sure this rule is necessary.


Glad to see the Fighter get much love from the design team. Looks very interesting, and can't wait to play with it.

Not sure that I like having Attack of Opportunities locked away as a feat. Instead, I would have liked to see it available to everyone, and the Fighter able to do it better than the rest.

Same with Power Attack. I feel that should be a combat option available to everyone, and that the Fighter is able to do it better than the rest. Much like how Fighter gets Sudden Charge that is better than move-move-strike that everyone else can do.

Quick Reversal looks fun. Glad to see shields being used more actively. Finally sword-and-board can be fun. Good to hear plenty of ranged options will be available so that the Fighter isn't just a melee class. Sounds like there will be plenty of different styles the Fighter can focus on.

Sad to hear that the Fighter won't also be the armor specialist of the group. I feel he ought to be up there. Hopefully there will still be just as many armor-boosting options as his other options.

Scarab Sages

Deighton Thrane wrote:
It's incredibly easy to create a fairly mediocre or bad fighter as a new player simply because there are so many feats, and a great number of poor to awful feats. Experienced players usually know to avoid these feats, but a new player might not. Aside from certain feats being fairly poor, a number of feats just don't synergize well together and don't add to overall efficacy.

I'm hoping that PF2 can avoid the "useless feat" trap better than PF1. As more and more feats are introduced in future books, there will invariably be some that play out better than others. It would be great, though, if experienced players didn't have to steer new players away from feats that were presented in the core book.


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Thinking about it, the -2 makes some sense. Running away from the Fighter should do something, otherwise there’s no point in running. I guess the optimal fleeing is guarded step, double move.

Ah, that also shows some nice value for Sudden Charge! Because you can move three times and attack, nobody can escape you.

You know, I’m suddenly rather interested in a mobile Fighter. That could be fun. I hope there’s a solid way to threaten an extra five feet, so AoOs are hard to avoid.


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TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Mark/Jason/any other devs willing to weigh in on this - Does Power Attack improve with either Class Level or Weapon Proficiency?

There was mention of it granting more dice later, yes.


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My quick impressions on what I just read.

"good at taking damage and even better at dealing damage."
That caught my eye. I don't want to take damage if I don't have to, and that quote makes me fear that this signals for the MMO style of combat where you make a "tank". Scrolling down, I saw on the first page of comments that Armor Training is taking a backseat, which it is personally one of my favorite class features of the fighter.

The class feature to do attacks of opportunity. A feature that triggers IF you're in reach, with a -2 penalty, costs your reaction, I imagine you'll need to have a weapon that threatens (unless you can punch it), and is conditional if they do a thing that will allow you to do it. I actually don't like this, because even in normal pathfinder, having a reach weapon, and combat reflexes, AOO's don't happen too often unless you create them, or the creatures move through threatened squares. I see the language of "move away from you", which makes me feel it'll be more 5e where they move out of your reach to provoke. AOO's being more rare I suppose would make people more reckless with their actions, but once they figure out you can do AOO's, I figure they'll wise up. This seems to be like, "Hey, look at this cool thing we're giving fighters that is rare", when it in my opinion extremely underwhelming, and reminds me of "Hey, look at this Bravery class feature. Pretty cool, right?". Oh, and lastly I'd like to point out the -2 penalty for the thing you'll rarely do is disappointing.

Next you write about the proficiency rank increasing, and I hope that all other classes are WAY slower than the fighter with these increases, and not just the later ones. I hate to be the guy who wants things and others not to, but Pathfinder 1e has quite often pretended to give fighters special exclusive things while actually not. The good old, "Why be a fighter, when all this stuff exists", and by how proficentcies sound including opening up other options from having it increased, I sure hope their speed increasing it isn't matched.

Here is another thing I feel people will not realize until it's pointed out. Fighters have long been without perception as a class skill, which is one of the many things that confuses and upsets people when seeing the fighter is a class to pick. So from what I'm seeing, first I am happy with having perception be good, but it seems there is a caveat that it only applies to when rolling for initiative? Like I guess I appreciate it because the usual argument for why fighters should have perception as a class skill is related to spotting combat, which it looks like what you're going for, but this seems like it'll be another one of those underwhelming things where people go, "Hey, look at this Bravery class feature. Pretty cool, right?"

Sudden Charge is something I would most likely take for my character, especially when the game lets you make multiple attacks if you have the actions. What I'm curious about is if it's exclusive to melee attacks, or if someone with ranged weapons can maneuver so there is a better shot (no cover etc). If it is exclusive to melee attacks, then I think this is a neat feat that people will use a lot.

Quick reversal is something I don't think I would ever take unless there are details that are missing, like if you'll reroll for both the 2nd attack miss, and the 3rd attack miss etc. This honestly seems to be a trap feat, and if feat taxes exist, then I am feel this'll be one of them. For you to make use out of it you'll need to first have at least two creatures within your reach, flanking you, and for you to use your actions to make more than 1 attack, but miss with the later attacks. There doesn't seem to be any incentive to create this situation on your own, but you'd want to try and avoid it, so you have this feat that you hope you'll never use. Unless the fighter will be the "I can't hold all these feats" meme, then this doesn't sound appealing to me at all. I imagine it also needs to have you spend your reaction, but if it didn't use a resource, and triggered for any of your attacks past the first, then maybe I'd consider taking this. Overall, I'd rather take a feat that helps me hit the thing, assuming there are any.

"We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game."
These shields don't sound fun to me, but overall I have mixed feelings. Originally you put this thing on your arm, and most of the time unless you had something to cause an exception, you couldn't use that hand for anything other than getting the shield AC bonus. Like if you ran your game paying attention to the rules, shields caused you to have a bad time if you wanted to open a door, climb, and manipulate other items if your other hand had a weapon in it. 2e shield requires an action to lift up so you gain the AC, and I just imagine if you don't just have your weapon and shield out all the time, that you'll have to eat away at a lot of actions when combat starts. Like the reaction to shave off damage is what I like, and I don't know if the shield will get wrecked over time or not, but I'm down to spend my limited reaction for that, but I feel like I have invested enough of my limb to the shield that I shouldn't need to spend actions to make use of it. But to talk about that feat related to the whole shield thing, I think it would be better if you gave another reaction to block damage immediately, and kept giving more over time, especially if people are going to need to spend an action lifting up their shields. I am reluctant to even use a shield because of the action I need to invest into it to even gain the most basic benefits.

I passed power attack, and it seems to be vital strike in a way. I'm not sure if the damage die is some set dice depending on the size/amount of hands of the weapon, or if it doubles the weapon damage like vital strike, but this feat doesn't sound good. I'm assuming whatever ability score mod you have doesn't get added in again, so what you're looking at is spending 2 actions for a chance to roll another die into the damage, which could end up being a 1. I saw a dev talk about situations where you're fighting things that are hard to hit, and how you'd rather want to power attack than just do another swing, but I disagree entirely. You have to buy the feat in the first place if you want to use it, and if I'm attacking something with high AC, then I think I rather take the multiple attacks because if it's likely I'll be missing even with that first swing, I still have that natural 20 (5% chance) if it really is that bad (assuming natural 20's auto hit in 2e). Seems like a trap feat to me unless there are details they left out, and again, I rather spend my feat on something that'll let me hit better instead of power attack.

I would have really loved to have heard more about the ranged feats, or at least more about the one that was mentioned. An attack that causes an enemy to lose an action seems like it's actually pretty cool, especially for someone who wants a more tactical fight. Not that I want to take away from the ranged feat ideas, but if this included melee attacks too I'd definitely take it even more. Speaking of melee and ranged feats, I am curious if power attack will be inclusive as a replacement for like a Deadly Aim, especially since it sounds like vital strike, and vital strike could be used with either.

I would have loved to have read an example of a fighter archetype, and how to implement it, but I do appreciate the post and especially that fighter was first up. I am trying to be optimistic with how fighters will turn out in 2e, and if my name didn't give it away, I do have a strong passion for the class. I feel that fighters haven't gotten a fair shake, and this will solely be what I judge paizo on.

Also, I need to mention the world of fighters in regards to their options over time from what is published. I'm unsure if fighters will continue their path of bonus feats as their class feature, but if they do, PLEASE put in plenty of content for them, or at least for those of us that have spent so much money on random materials just to have access to the combat feats inside, PLEASE include like a list of what in the past can be used, and how it can be converted into 2e. Again, all I really care about are fighters, so if fighters get a fair shake, then I'll be happy.


Sorta mixed on the preview honestly. Having more distinct stuff to do in combat is certainly a welcome change from charge/full attack all day erry day. The idea that fighters are supposed to switch around between arms as situation dictates sounds nifty but I have my doubts about that for the same reason golf-bagging weapons didn't work in PF1: price and not enough bonuses to make it worth it mainly (beyond ranged weapon/CCW naturally).

The combat stuff is decent I guess, but I'm pretty thoroughly unimpressed with the example of fighter narrative power. A whole +1 to perc (and a free rank). Honestly this was your chance to really wow us with something cool and instead it's "see stuff slightly better." Yaaaay.

There's also minor possible bugbears with when stuff comes online and the possibility that too many fighter feats are just "do x for less actions/a bit better" which I put personally hope don't dominate the list compared to new actions but that's something that can't really be judged without the playtest doc.

The AoO change is...ugh. On the one hand I get (and would like) combat to be more mobile than two sides forming the flank conga-line and doing swing-swing-misc action till one side is dead but on the other I'm not exactly too thrilled about cueing up the Benny Hill theme as the melee guys chase the local archer/wizard as he constantly legs it out of close combat unless you are a fighter or pay the AOO feat tax to punish that. Eh. We'll see in the playtest I guess.

Liberty's Edge

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HWalsh wrote:
EJDean wrote:
Charles Dunwoody wrote:
Power Attack and Quick Reversal both sound really useful. And the 14th level shield ability oddly specific. Maybe it has more applications.
Yeah, +1 or +2 to Reflex saves requiring an action to activate. Not exactly thrilling for a 14th-level ability.

At level 14?

Imagine a +3 Shield.

Suddenly you're getting a +5 to Reflex Saves - Not bad at all.

Comparison:

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 1,500 gp diamond component for this spell).


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Charlie D. wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
EJDean wrote:
Charles Dunwoody wrote:
Power Attack and Quick Reversal both sound really useful. And the 14th level shield ability oddly specific. Maybe it has more applications.
Yeah, +1 or +2 to Reflex saves requiring an action to activate. Not exactly thrilling for a 14th-level ability.

At level 14?

Imagine a +3 Shield.

Suddenly you're getting a +5 to Reflex Saves - Not bad at all.

Comparison:

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 1,500 gp diamond component for this spell).

Flawed one unfortunately. Comparing PF1 features to 2 is essentially apples to oranges at this point. The math in 2 is guaranteed (or at least attempts will be made) to be more tuned than the clownshow PF1 games invariably would become and the odds of nearly any spell coming out the same as its old counterpart are vanishingly small if you ask me. Save the comparisons for when we get other class (or spell) previews.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Charlie D. wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
EJDean wrote:
Charles Dunwoody wrote:
Power Attack and Quick Reversal both sound really useful. And the 14th level shield ability oddly specific. Maybe it has more applications.
Yeah, +1 or +2 to Reflex saves requiring an action to activate. Not exactly thrilling for a 14th-level ability.

At level 14?

Imagine a +3 Shield.

Suddenly you're getting a +5 to Reflex Saves - Not bad at all.

Comparison:

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 1,500 gp diamond component for this spell).

Flawed one unfortunately. Comparing PF1 features to 2 is essentially apples to oranges at this point. The math in 2 is guaranteed (or at least attempts will be made) to be more tuned than the clownshow PF1 games invariably would become and the odds of nearly any spell coming out the same as its old counterpart are vanishingly...

Well the point still stands. Nothing here addresses the fact that they know or even acknowledge that why wouldn't you play any other class besides a fighter.


Charles Dunwoody wrote:
Power Attack and Quick Reversal both sound really useful. And the 14th level shield ability oddly specific. Maybe it has more applications.

I would guess it means you can use your shield vs directed blasts/breaths which while kinda specialty is stuff that shows up enough in adventures especially at those levels. It is one of those things if you are in a situation it is useful it is probably VERY useful.


I mean, beyond the fact that Paizo acknowledged in the opening blog post that CM/D existed and was a problem (compared to the prior line of "doesn't exist, move along"). This preview gave out and implied a bunch of fighter exclusive stunts/abilities someone might want compared to playing something else.

Now if it later comes out in, I dunno, the Barbarian preview that Barbs can get their +4 rage bonus to all saves at L10 then sure, you can rightfully call the shield ability comparatively garbage but comparing stuff to PF1 are pretty pointless comparisons if you ask me.


Arakasius wrote:


1 thing not sure on:
Why -2 penalty on AoO? Doesn’t seem like it adds much for book keeping. I mean I can understand why it would be less accurate than your first attack, but also am not sure this rule is necessary.

Would be easier without the -2. I'd like to know the reason for this.

On one hand it may be less precise, but on the other hand the opponent leaves open a weak spot to do this, so that it should even each other out.


5e has lots of variable damage for their characters.

I have play tested a similar system, it makes the game inconsistent and it's the reason that Paizo has been getting my money instead of Hasbro.

Encounter design seems to be close to impossible, the variance on damage is so large that without more information and just what you want me to know right now it does not create a better experience. If I wanted to play Yahtzee, I'd go play Yahtzee.


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I've always been one of the proponents of "free power attack for everyone" camp, but upon actually thinking of how AOOs are actually used in my experience, I think it's fine that it's automatic for fighter and optional for everyone else because of 1 thing:

There's a lot of builds that never AOO, or dont AOO decently enough. Anything that uses a ranged weapon or TWF or casts spells is probably not getting a lot from having AOO in their arsenal, and probably isn't supposed to be tanking either (what movement AOO allows). This way, those builds can get something else that they'll actually use and AOO will instead become kind of a "tax" for melee lockdown and tanking builds that 100% will want to get it.

Hopefully the opportunity cost of taking it on these builds won't be so high as to make it really feel like an ugly tax that you need to even do your role. But at least other types of chars can go for things that will be useful for them.


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I do feel this is going to end up like 1e where they think they're balancing out the fighter, but they're really not considering other classes, and how the game is usually played. Even though we don't have spell information now, comparing the fighters features and feat options with a spell of that level I feel will really put things into perspective.

This blog post actually has nothing I'm thrilled about at all, other than me going, "I'll probably take sudden charge". Looking like a life of class features that try and fool you into thinking they're acceptable, and buying "exclusive" feats that do underwhelming things. I predict that ranged combat will dominate, especially with everyone spending all their actions putting up shields, pulling out their weapons, and running around. Flying magic man in the sky rains down fire death, while if I put up my shield as an action, I get a bonus to reflex saves.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.


So if power attack has been changed to an extra damage dice, while getting more dice at a later level, I can't help but wonder if if Vital Strike will still exist as an expansion of Power Attack. Like a little feat tree, size they mentioned Feats with prerequisites expand on the guest feat. 3x dice? Leading into 4? Could be cool


AoO's seem like they'll rarely be triggered, the rules seem to be more restrictive on what triggers them than in 1e, you get an attack penalty, and you'll have to spend a resource of your reaction. I don't think most classes will have the hint of jealously over this class feature, and people will normally forget it exists from how irrelevant it right now seems it'll be. If there isn't going to be some grand AOO feats coming out, then this feature will be a small annoyance to enemies.

If this thing is supposed to be a special fighter thing, then make it unlimited, and remove the -2 penalty. If it's important to have limits on it, then do 1 + Dex bonus, or maybe even after a few levels it improves.


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Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.

I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.


Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.

It's a general statement of optimism that either martials will have more options available to them to down a flying opponent (whether by feat or enough ranks in acro) or that the flying opponent will generally be dropped to more in line with the sharp stick crowd.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.

That's an assumption you are having.


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Charlie D. wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

At level 14?

Imagine a +3 Shield.

Suddenly you're getting a +5 to Reflex Saves - Not bad at all.

Comparison:

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect.

Limited Wish is an high level spell slot with expensive material components. Holding up a shield is cheap.

A better comparison might be whatever Resist/Protection From Energy spell is in PF2. If a 14th level caster can get virtual immunity to fire with a long duration for a low level spell slot, while a Fighter has to use an action every round to give himself an extra 25% chance of taking 50% less damage from a fire attack (reducing average damage taken by 12.5%, I think?), that's not very impressive.


Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.
That's an assumption you are having.

Are you hinting that the fighter will indeed be able to jump extremely high? I feel foolish for making such an assumption that they wouldn't be able to jump so high on their own.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.
That's an assumption you are having.
Are you hinting that the fighter will indeed be able to jump extremely high?

It has been stated that one of the boons of the higher rank Acrobatic Proficiency is high/long jumps. I'm hoping we can reach John Carter levels.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:

I mean, beyond the fact that Paizo acknowledged in the opening blog post that CM/D existed and was a problem (compared to the prior line of "doesn't exist, move along"). This preview gave out and implied a bunch of fighter exclusive stunts/abilities someone might want compared to playing something else.

Now if it later comes out in, I dunno, the Barbarian preview that Barbs can get their +4 rage bonus to all saves at L10 then sure, you can rightfully call the shield ability comparatively garbage but comparing stuff to PF1 are pretty pointless comparisons if you ask me.

In-combat numbers have never been the fighter's problem. She deals damage, she takes damage; her ability to do anything else - in a game where, say, 4th level wizard skills include Remove Curse, Dimension Door, Secure Shelter, Scrying, Charm Monster, Lesser Geas, Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, and Stone Shape, among plenty of things that are (also) useful in combat - is the issue. Of course we haven't seen yet what skills are capable of now, or spells, but that's the crux of the issue, not, fundamentally, some extra points to an attack or damage or reflex role.


Matthias W wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

I mean, beyond the fact that Paizo acknowledged in the opening blog post that CM/D existed and was a problem (compared to the prior line of "doesn't exist, move along"). This preview gave out and implied a bunch of fighter exclusive stunts/abilities someone might want compared to playing something else.

Now if it later comes out in, I dunno, the Barbarian preview that Barbs can get their +4 rage bonus to all saves at L10 then sure, you can rightfully call the shield ability comparatively garbage but comparing stuff to PF1 are pretty pointless comparisons if you ask me.

In-combat numbers have never been the fighter's problem. She deals damage, she takes damage; her ability to do anything else - in a game where, say, 4th level wizard skills include Remove Curse, Dimension Door, Secure Shelter, Scrying, Charm Monster, Lesser Geas, Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, and Stone Shape, among plenty of things that are (also) useful in combat - is the issue. Of course we haven't seen yet what skills are capable of now, or spells, but that's the crux of the issue, not, fundamentally, some extra points to an attack or damage or reflex role.

I said as much in my thoughts on the preview (fighter non-com ability being a bonus rank in perc proficiency and +1 to it, be still my beating heart). Really missed opportunity from Paizo to really impress us with something out of combat and cool but they didn't and such is life. However, presuming that they don't exist at all or that spells will absolutely for sure blow them out of the water without actually seeing either is just pointless hand wringing to me.


Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.
That's an assumption you are having.
Are you hinting that the fighter will indeed be able to jump extremely high?
It has been stated that one of the boons of the higher rank Acrobatic Proficiency is high/long jumps. I'm hoping we can reach John Carter levels.

Was it just said it would be easier, or was there something solid to give you actual reason that you'd be able to jump up from the ground to a flying magic man who is extremely high in the air? I feel my assumption was absolutely reasonable, but your reply ends with you saying that you're hoping it can be done, which seems like you too are making an assumption with your original statement.

Dark Archive

Human Fighter wrote:
Flying magic man in the sky rains down fire death, while if I put up my shield as an action, I get a bonus to reflex saves.

FMM spends one action to concentrate on Fly so he doesn't plummet to the ground.

FMM now has a choice, spend 2 actions for a decent spell, or spend an action to move and 1 action for a single magic missile dart.

Also, Normal Fighter Dude, with Master Grade Athletics (so, lvl 7) has literally been said in a blog preview to be able to leap into the air and smash flying foes to the ground.

FMM needs to rethink his plan.


I believe spell casting components will cost an action each, or at least in most cases. I could be wrong, but hopefully that is one of the smaller steps Paizo is taking to balance things out.


Human Fighter wrote:
I believe spell casting components will cost an action each, or at least in most cases. I could be wrong, but hopefully that is one of the smaller steps Paizo is taking to balance things out.

One of the earlier blogs stated that the typical action cost for spells is 2 actions. Exceptions so far are for things like Shield (reaction) and Magic Missile (variable 1-3 actions).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Or you jump up and smack magic man down to the ground.
I can't tell if you're being serious, but magic man I'm sad to inform you is beyond your jumping capabilities, and can see your house from where he is.
That's an assumption you are having.
Are you hinting that the fighter will indeed be able to jump extremely high?
It has been stated that one of the boons of the higher rank Acrobatic Proficiency is high/long jumps. I'm hoping we can reach John Carter levels.
Was it just said it would be easier, or was there something solid to give you actual reason that you'd be able to jump up from the ground to a flying magic man who is extremely high in the air? I feel my assumption was absolutely reasonable, but your reply ends with you saying that you're hoping it can be done, which seems like you too are making an assumption with your original statement.

I am making my assumption over numbers being tossed around (in the 20-100ft range) though I believe Mark said it would be closer to 20ft range for Master? Proficiency, which still leaves room for what Legendary opens up.

Whereas we haven't seen spellcasting yet so we don't know how easily a caster can fly into the atmosphere in order to basically tactical nuke those down on the ground.


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Where can I find this blog about the crazy jumps? I have them all open that I can find on Paizo blog section that relate to 2e, and I'm having trouble finding it.


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TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Flying magic man in the sky rains down fire death, while if I put up my shield as an action, I get a bonus to reflex saves.

FMM spends one action to concentrate on Fly so he doesn't plummet to the ground.

FMM now has a choice, spend 2 actions for a decent spell, or spend an action to move and 1 action for a single magic missile dart.

Also, Normal Fighter Dude, with Master Grade Athletics (so, lvl 7) has literally been said in a blog preview to be able to leap into the air and smash flying foes to the ground.

FMM needs to rethink his plan.

You can get master proficiency by level 7....yikes.


Planpanther wrote:
TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
Flying magic man in the sky rains down fire death, while if I put up my shield as an action, I get a bonus to reflex saves.

FMM spends one action to concentrate on Fly so he doesn't plummet to the ground.

FMM now has a choice, spend 2 actions for a decent spell, or spend an action to move and 1 action for a single magic missile dart.

Also, Normal Fighter Dude, with Master Grade Athletics (so, lvl 7) has literally been said in a blog preview to be able to leap into the air and smash flying foes to the ground.

FMM needs to rethink his plan.

You can get master proficiency by level 7....yikes.

at the earliest, so I figure not many classes can do it by then.


So the fighter is the only one that starts with attacks of opportunity? does that mean AoO is a feat?


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Threeshades wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Not happy with power attack, more dice means less reliable numbers, I don't want to base my damage calcs solely on variables.

I have to say i feel the opposite way. In Pathfinder rolling those 2d6 or 1d12 wor your weapon damage was just a formality, really a farce, because it was a pittance on top of the +45 damage the character got from all other factors. Might as well just change weapon damage to be static, so that players couldsave themselves that near meaningless dieroll.

I'm happy that dice will mean something again in the new edition.

I have to agree with this. With the way things worked out eventually at mid/high levels you could almost just skip rolling the actual damage dice and the impact it would have on what you did to a target would be minimal. It was just about stacking flat bonuses while some consistency is nice to much gets boring and renders a lot of weapon flavor meaningless.


Dragon78 wrote:
So the fighter is the only one that starts with attacks of opportunity? does that mean AoO is a feat?

Looks like it's a class feature of the fighter, so you don't need to buy into it.

" Other classes can get this ability—and numerous monsters will as well—but only the fighter starts with it a core feature."

so it seems they'd get it level 1, where other classes might get it later on. Also that other creatures might have it too.


Human Fighter wrote:
Planpanther wrote:

You can get master proficiency by level 7....yikes.

at the earliest, so I figure not many classes can do it by then.

It's been stated you get a skill proficiency every other level (it doesn't matter what class, though some classes may get extra for free) and you start with some proficiencies. If you truly want to specialize in acrobatics, you could almost certainly get it by level 7 as a fighter. Granted, you may only have some base proficiencies beyond that if you do it, but given what was presented, it doesn't seem like it would be impossible for any class to hit master at level 7.


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Rysky wrote:
It has been stated that one of the boons of the higher rank Acrobatic Proficiency is high/long jumps. I'm hoping we can reach John Carter levels.

And by mid level rather than high. 8th or so. :)


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kaid wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Not happy with power attack, more dice means less reliable numbers, I don't want to base my damage calcs solely on variables.

I have to say i feel the opposite way. In Pathfinder rolling those 2d6 or 1d12 wor your weapon damage was just a formality, really a farce, because it was a pittance on top of the +45 damage the character got from all other factors. Might as well just change weapon damage to be static, so that players couldsave themselves that near meaningless dieroll.

I'm happy that dice will mean something again in the new edition.

I have to agree with this. With the way things worked out eventually at mid/high levels you could almost just skip rolling the actual damage dice and the impact it would have on what you did to a target would be minimal. It was just about stacking flat bonuses while some consistency is nice to much gets boring and renders a lot of weapon flavor meaningless.

Sure, but completely nixing consistency so the dice are the only thing that matter is not necessarily better design by virtue.

Are enemy hp scaled to account for this?
Do I add proficiency to damage?

Do I rely on critical hits to roll so much dice that my minimum expected values make up for it?

I want this information, not insults.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Sure, but completely nixing consistency so the dice are the only thing that matter is not necessarily better design by virtue.

Are enemy hp scaled to account for this?
Do I add proficiency to damage?

Do I rely on critical hits to roll so much dice that my minimum expected values make up for it?

I want this information, not insults.

Weren't you the one criticizing me for flipping out over skill variance when the information we had on them was incomplete? :-P

We can discuss how much variance a damage roll should have (I'd prefer around half of my damage guaranteed), but we currently don't know much/anything about static adds to damage. We know there will be an ability modifier for Strength as a flat add. We know that magic weapons add a damage die. We know that criticals also double your flat bonus... But that's about it.

Also, I'm much less concerned about rolling 6d6 than I am 3d12. If anything, I'd like to see d12's go away, as the variance there is way too high.

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