First Look at the Pathfinder Playtest

Tuesday, March 6, 2018

Welcome to the next evolution of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

Just shy of 10 years ago, on March 18th, 2008, we asked you to take a bold step with us and download the Alpha Playtest PDF for Pathfinder First Edition. Over the past decade, we've learned a lot about the game and the people who play it. We've talked with you on forums, we've gamed with you at conventions, and we've watched you play online and in person at countless venues. We went from updating mechanics to inventing new ones, adding a breadth of options to the game and making the system truly our own. We've made mistakes, and we've had huge triumphs. Now it is time to take all of that knowledge and make the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game even better.

By now, you've probably read all about the upcoming launch of the Playtest version of the game set to release on August 2nd, 2018 (but just in case you haven't, click here). In the weeks and months leading up to that release, we are going give you an in-depth look at this game, previewing all 12 of the classes and examining many of the most fundamental changes to the game. Of course, that is a long time to wait to get a complete picture, so I wanted to take this opportunity to give you insight into the game, how it works, and why we made the changes that we made. We will be covering these in much more detail later, but we thought it might be useful to give a general overview right now.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

New, but the Same

Our first goal was to make Pathfinder Second Edition feel just like the game you know and love. That means that as a player, you need to be able to make the choices that allow you to build the character you want to play. Similarly, as a Game Master, you need to have the tools and the support to tell the story you want to tell. The rules that make up the game have to fundamentally still fill the same role they did before, even if some of the mechanics behind them are different.

Building a Character

It's worth taking a moment to talk about how characters are built, because we spent a lot of time making this process smoother and more intuitive. You start by selecting your ancestry (which used to be called race), figuring out where you came from and what sorts of basic statistics you have. Next you decide on your background, representing how you were raised and what you did before taking up the life of an adventurer. Finally, you select your class, the profession you have dedicated yourself to as an intrepid explorer. Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

After making the big choices that define your character, you have a variety of smaller choices to make, including assigning skill proficiencies, picking an ancestry feat, buying gear, and deciding on the options presented by your class. Finally, after deciding on all of your choices, the only thing left to do is figure out all of your bonuses, which are now determined by one unified system of proficiency, based on your character's level.

As you go on grand adventures with your character, you will gain experience and eventually level up. Pathfinder characters have exciting and important choices to make every time they gain a level, from selecting new class feats to adding new spells to their repertoires.

Playing the Game

We've made a number of changes to the way the game is played, to clean up the overall flow of play and to add some interesting choices in every part of the story. First up, we have broken play up into three distinct components. Encounter mode is what happens when you are in a fight, measuring time in seconds, each one of which can mean life or death. Exploration mode is measured in minutes and hours, representing travel and investigation, finding traps, decoding ancient runes, or even mingling at the queen's coronation ball. Of all the modes of play, exploration is the most flexible, allowing for easy storytelling and a quick moving narrative. Finally, the downtime mode happens when your characters are back in town, or relative safety, allowing them to retrain abilities, practice a trade, lead an organization, craft items, or recuperate from wounds. Downtime is measured in days, generally allowing time to flow by in an instant.

Most of the game happens in exploration or encounter mode, with the two types of play flowing easily from one to the other. In fact, exploration mode can have a big impact on how combat begins, determining what you roll for your initiative. In a group of four exploring a dungeon, two characters might have their weapons ready, keeping an eye out for danger. Another might be skulking ahead, keeping to the shadows, while the fourth is looking for magic. If combat begins, the first two begin with their weapons drawn, ready for a fight, and they roll Perception for their initiative. The skulking character rolls Stealth for initiative, giving them a chance to hide before the fight even begins. The final adventurer rolls Perception for initiative, but also gains some insight as to whether or not there is magic in the room.

After initiative is sorted out and it's your turn to act, you get to take three actions on your turn, in any combination. Gone are different types of actions, which can slow down play and add confusion at the table. Instead, most things, like moving, attacking, or drawing a weapon, take just one action, meaning that you can attack more than once in a single turn! Each attack after the first takes a penalty, but you still have a chance to score a hit. In Pathfinder Second Edition, most spells take two actions to cast, but there are some that take only one. Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

Between turns, each character also has one reaction they can take to interrupt other actions. The fighter, for example, has the ability to take an attack of opportunity if a foe tries to move past or its defenses are down. Many classes and monsters have different things they can do with their reactions, making each combat a little bit less predictable and a lot more exciting. Cast a fire spell near a red dragon, for example, and you might just find it takes control of your magic, roasting you and your friends instead of the intended target!

Monsters and Treasure

The changes to the game are happening on both sides of the GM screen. Monsters, traps, and magic items have all gotten significant revisions.

First off, monsters are a lot easier to design. We've moved away from strict monster construction formulas based off type and Hit Dice. Instead, we start by deciding on the creature's rough level and role in the game, then select statistics that make it a balanced and appropriate part of the game. Two 7th-level creatures might have different statistics, allowing them to play differently at the table, despite both being appropriate challenges for characters of that level.

This also makes it easier for us to present monsters, giving us more space to include special abilities and actions that really make a monster unique. Take the fearsome tyrannosaurus, for example; if this terrifying dinosaur gets you in its jaws, it can take an action to fling you up to 20 feet through the air, dealing tremendous damage to you in the process!

Hazards are now a more important part of the game, from rangers creating snares to traps that you have to actively fight against if you want to survive. Poisons, curses, and diseases are a far more serious problem to deal with, having varied effects that can cause serious penalties, or even death.

Of all of the systems that Game Masters interact with, magic items are one of the most important, so we spent extra time ensuring that they are interesting and fun. First and foremost, we have taken significant steps to allow characters to carry the items they want, instead of the items that they feel they must have to succeed. Good armor and a powerful weapon are still critical to the game, but you no longer have to carry a host of other smaller trinkets to boost up your saving throws or ability scores. Instead, you find and make the magic items that grant you cool new things to do during play, giving you the edge against all of the monsters intent on making you into their next meal.

We can't wait until you find your first +1 longsword to see what it can do!

What's Next?

There are a lot of things we are excited to show off, so many in fact that we have to pace ourselves. First off, if you want to hear the game in action right now, we've recorded a special podcast with the folks from the Glass Cannon Network, converting the original Pathfinder First Edition Module, Crypt of the Everflame, to the new edition. Head on over to their site and listen to the first part of this adventure now!

Stop by tomorrow for the first blog taking an in-depth look at Pathfinder Second Edition, starting off with the new system for taking actions, then visit us again on Friday for an exploration of the Glass Cannon game, exploring some of its spoilers in detail!

We Need You!

All of us at Paizo want to take a moment to thank you, the fans, players, and game masters that have made this exciting journey a possibility. It's been a wild ride for the past decade, and speaking personally, I could not be more excited for where we are heading. But, as I am sure you've heard a number of times already, we cannot make this game without you, without your feedback and passion for the game. Thank you for coming with us on this adventure, thank you for contributing to our community, and thank you for playing Pathfinder.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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Vic Wertz wrote:
Also, don't confuse "simpler" with "stripped down." If you haven't read the blog about the new action economy, please do. It describes a system that's simpler than we have now, but that is also more flexible than we have now. I can tell you from my own play experience, it allows for more varied play strategies and more interesting player decisions. But it's easier to learn and faster in play. I think it's more fun, and I think most of you will think that too, once you've tried it. THAT is what this is about.

Exactly this. From what we're hearing and seeing from the odd blog peek behind the screen, all things point to a system that will be more organic to play.

Mechanics-wise this may well be "simpler" when compared to the current P1E processes (which have, if we're honest, become very crunch-heavy in segments to the uninitiated).

With a potentially more natural flow to the game (through all its facets and theatre points), P2E has the opportunity to improve upon the system that affords us to portray our imaginings.

While the roll-play will undoubtably change (just like it did with Basic D&D, to AD&D, to 2E et al.) the role-play at its heart won't.


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Vic Wertz wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
If they become the stripped down game 5e is a lot of the appeal will vanish for many players. I seriously hope they don’t try to occupy the same design space as 5e.

I've heard this a lot.

Wizards has their space. Pathfinder has our space. Challenging them in their space would be a losing proposition... for us, for them, for gamers everywhere. Everybody loses.

Also, don't confuse "simpler" with "stripped down." If you haven't read the blog about the new action economy, please do. It describes a system that's simpler than we have now, but that is also more flexible than we have now. I can tell you from my own play experience, it allows for more varied play strategies and more interesting player decisions. But it's easier to learn and faster in play. I think it's more fun, and I think most of you will think that too, once you've tried it. THAT is what this is about.

The action economy is not where I am worried about the stripping down. I like the action economy. Leery of the hints I’ve seen on skills, for example.


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Vic Wertz wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
If they become the stripped down game 5e is a lot of the appeal will vanish for many players. I seriously hope they don’t try to occupy the same design space as 5e.

I've heard this a lot.

Wizards has their space. Pathfinder has our space. Challenging them in their space would be a losing proposition... for us, for them, for gamers everywhere. Everybody loses.

I'm glad to hear this. If Paizo attempts to make a game that is "more like D&D 5e," that product will fail, because the people who want to play that game are already playing 5e.

But I am hearing a lot of things that make me nervous.

I think backwards compatibility is important. People need to be able to continue using their old 1e Pathfinder material. I myself haven't spent as much as some people but I have still spent hundreds of dollars. Maybe $1000 all told over the years. I don't want this stuff to all be obsolete.

The monster construction system worries me. It looks like it mirrors the Starfinder system and overall I consider that system to be a failure. It badly mars what would otherwise be a great game. As a GM I look at the Starfinder monster build rules and shake my head, thinking "what the hell am I supposed to do with this?." Building Pathfinder monsters is easy, because there is essentially one system for characters and monsters. The trick is assigning a CR. But instead of the ground-up system that PF uses, SF has a top-down system that shows you what the goals are and tells you not to worry about how they are achieved. What I have found is that with only a few variations Starfinder enemies seem to all be about the same. At a given CR everything hits at +X for Y damage and has Z hit points.

Furthermore, monster stat blocks are one of the central features of published adventures. The more you change this system, the less people will be able to use their old adventures without work. And that is really disappointing. If the conversion of monsters from 1e to 2e is easy then this maintains backwards compatibility.


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Black Dow wrote:


While the roll-play will undoubtably change (just like it did with Basic D&D, to AD&D, to 2E et al.) the role-play at its heart won't.

that obviously depends on how much of the mechanics will be changed. Different game mechanics can lead to different game styles and role-playing styles. So, extreme changes in the game mechanics CAN lead to fundamental changes in the role-play


Agreed - but think we're all pretty canny at adapting the systems to suit our chosen styles of play.

Leastways that's been my experience o'er the years.


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Add me on the Backward Compatability thing.

If all my books can still be used with a bit of effort, I'm ok with that. It's not much different than modding my game to make way for something out of Unchained or some 3PP option I like.

Plus it means I still have the options of letting my players play a Dhampir or Catfolk.

Conversion guide would really help too.

I'm not afraid of doing a bit of extra work to make my old stuff fit until a replacement book comes out, but I don't want to have to abandon everything I've already got to move forward with the new edition.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
magnuskn wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

YES. Please! Also

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
*bops with a rolled up newspaper*
Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Please note that the Glass Cannon podcast features Jason running a First Edition module with Playtest Edition rules, converting it on the fly with the aid of a handful of pre-converted stat blocks.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

YES. Please! Also

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I can have my dreams. :p


Vic Wertz wrote:
Please note that the Glass Cannon podcast features Jason running a First Edition module with Playtest Edition rules, converting it on the fly with the aid of a handful of pre-converted stat blocks.

noted.

As soon as I see the same thing the other way around, running a PF2 module, converted on the fly back to PF1 I know I can rest easy


Hythlodeus wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Please note that the Glass Cannon podcast features Jason running a First Edition module with Playtest Edition rules, converting it on the fly with the aid of a handful of pre-converted stat blocks.

noted.

As soon as I see the same thing the other way around, running a PF2 module, converted on the fly back to PF1 I know I can rest easy

I appreciate the information and it being pointed out that it appears 1e adventures are playable with PF2e rules. That is very promising.

I would like to see PF2 APs and adventures able to be played on the fly with PF1 (or is that P1E) rules as well.

However, it's still very early. I think you need to have a PF2e module/adventure first before we can see whether they can be converted on the fly to P1E rules or not.

I think there may be a little wait until that happens.


Is this second edition only going to be avalable in English or will it also be published in Frensh or maby dutch (please)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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As a GM for a current Pathfinder group and AD&D 5e group, it is interesting to see how Paizo is trying to compete. I have some diehard Pathfinder players that hate 5E and some that think Pathfinder is just too complicated. I look forward to being a part of the playtest with both of my groups to see their reactions. However, I too have invested in many 1E Pathfinder books that I would hate to see collect dust. I would suggest to the Paizo game designers that a GOOD Conversion book be put out to help keep the 1E books at least useful. Many other companies put out conversion books, why not you...


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Wow, this just breaks my heart. Pathfinder's raison d'etre is that it represented a stable, ongoing system based on a "perfected" version of D&D 3.5. I briefly tried D&D 4E but quickly decided Pathfinder was the way to go. I'll look over the new system, but I expect I'll become one of the "1E loyalists" and stop investing in Pathfinder.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Drs. R. H. S. P. Stuart-Mill wrote:
Is this second edition only going to be avalable in English or will it also be published in Frensh or maby dutch (please)

Our French publishing partner, Black Book Editions is onboard. Sadly, we do not have a Dutch partner.


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Alright! Send the books now.
My friends and I are ready to commence play-testing.


Frank Daniels wrote:

Alright! Send the books now.

My friends and I are ready to commence play-testing.

I like to see the playtest pdf as soon as possible so please where do i sign to join it.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Please note that the Glass Cannon podcast features Jason running a First Edition module with Playtest Edition rules, converting it on the fly with the aid of a handful of pre-converted stat blocks.

Cool, cool. Sounds like Fiday’s Blog might clear some things up about that?

(I’m one of the folks on board with 5e-esque skill proficiencies, but I’m cool with something else too.)


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Meanwhile I’d have to say that the easy bake oven skills are completely unappealing.


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Hells yeah!

Also, add me to the backward compatibility group. I have one group I run that would probably jump into the new rules no prob but another that will definitely want to keep using the old stuff.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Finally caught up! :)

Sphe86 wrote:
I am surprised to see so many people excited for this.

It’s a majority of people who’ve posted in this thread who like the idea, many of whom have posted more than once. (Nice to see some old faces return!) That doesn’t necessarily represent the rest of the fans.

Quote wrote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

What this sounds like to me, is that it seems like here “feats” are similar to “talents” as used in RGG’s Talented Classes line.

Logan Bonner wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:
How backwards compatible will this be? How much work will I have to invest in a 2nd ed. AP to make it work in the real system?
Most of the encounter groupings will work pretty well. Converting a 2E monster to a 1E one will take some time (more time than going in the other direction anyway), but is pretty doable. For interaction and all that, certainly all the same concepts will be there, just implemented in different ways…

Converting monsters from the Starfinder Alien Archive to Pathfinder rules is a hassle that takes a long time, especially for things with special abilities or spellcasting, but less so in comparison to converting say Starfinder animals to Pathfinder. You cannot do it “on the fly”, if you want to convert properly. Converting P2 to P1 will be much the same, IMO.

Logan Bonner wrote:
We want to show people new things too, and there are quite a few parts of the rules where we reached for the more extreme version of several options. Then, if people hate it, we can redirect for the final version. The playtest is by no means fully locked in as the final rules.

On Erik’s Facebook page, someone wrote about the announcement: “Less complex rules and backward compatibility are all I hope for.” Erik replied: “Easier rules are a dead lock. Compatibility is a bit more challenging. We won't have 40+ classes and 5000 feats at launch, for example. ”.

So the playtest rules might not be “fully locked”, but the rules are going to be easier. On a scale of 1-10 for complexity, if P1 is 8 and Starfinder 6, P2 will be 6 as well or thereabouts. Obviously, some people probably regard 8 or even 6 as 11!


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ericthecleric wrote:


So the playtest rules might not be “fully locked”, but the rules are going to be easier. On a scale of 1-10 for complexity, if P1 is 8 and Starfinder 6, P2 will be 6 as well or thereabouts. Obviously, some people probably regard 8 or even 6 as 11!

On the other hand, if you regard 8 as a perfect 10, 6 can only max out at 75% of desired complexity.


I like that you can download the playtest version as a PDF and not pay anything other than printer ink and paper costs.

I understand the reasoning behind releasing a printed softcover, hardcover version (again printer ink and paper costs) but a super duper limited collectible hard cover for a "playtest" version?!?

Who would pay extra for a version that won't be the "final" version?

ArrOOoo!


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Jahhdog wrote:


Who would pay extra for a version that won't be the "final" version?

collectors

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Jahhdog wrote:


Who would pay extra for a version that won't be the "final" version?

Me. And what I do with my money is none of your concern.

I also know at least one other person who's seriously considering it, and haven't talked to the other 5 people I game with yet.

Dark Archive

I'm excited at reviewing the material.

BUT BASED ON THE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF HOW MAGIC MISSILE WILL WORK SOUNDS ALOT LIKE PAIZO IS TRYING TO SHADOW WHAT WIZARD OF THE COAST HAS DONE WITH 5TH EDITION.

Paizo Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

WOC You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

The next thing Paizo is liable to say is that we will be able to cast low level spells with higher spell slots.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I’m gonna get one, all nice and pretty to look at, and the softcover to scribble the hell out of.


Or we might get undercasting again, which is balanced a little better against spells known.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:

I'm excited at reviewing the material.

BUT BASED ON THE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF HOW MAGIC MISSILE WILL WORK SOUNDS ALOT LIKE PAIZO IS TRYING TO SHADOW WHAT WIZARD OF THE COAST HAS DONE WITH 5TH EDITION.

Paizo Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

WOC You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

The next thing Paizo is liable to say is that we will be able to cast low level spells with higher spell slots.

... magic missile and using higher level slots to cast lower level spells already does that.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Or we might get undercasting again, which is balanced a little better against spells known.

That would be nice. Or spells leveling up so you only have to take it once for the spontaneous casters.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:

I'm excited at reviewing the material.

BUT BASED ON THE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF HOW MAGIC MISSILE WILL WORK SOUNDS ALOT LIKE PAIZO IS TRYING TO SHADOW WHAT WIZARD OF THE COAST HAS DONE WITH 5TH EDITION.

Paizo Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

WOC You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

The next thing Paizo is liable to say is that we will be able to cast low level spells with higher spell slots.

that's called Metamagic Feats isn't it, we do that now


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Samy wrote:
Cerushad wrote:
And now I'm leaving for the next haven wherein 3.5 can Thrive.
Yeah I've been googling third party adventure paths a lot today...sadly I found out pretty much all of them have significantly less inspiring art than Pathfinder...

Well that's no surprise. Art is expensive. Good art is even more expensive. Third parties are usually not comparable in size and budget to Paizo.

Also, where do people get the idea that 3.5 couldn't continue to thrive with Pathfinder Second Edition? I see no indication of this. It's just another evolution of the same system. It's a natural progression from D&D 3rd Edition to D&D v.3.5 to Pathfinder to Pathfinder Second Edition. It's all the same game engine.


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QuidEst wrote:
Or we might get undercasting again, which is balanced a little better against spells known.

The balance is better, but it's also not as fun.

"Oh boy new level and my spells went to the treadmill and I have new low level options that I didn't want them but may be useful now..."

Vs

"Oh boy new level, new spells, and new advance ways to use older spells!"

DSP psionics kind of highlight this concept far better than 5e.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Perfect Tommy wrote:
What Pathfinder needed - rather than a rules reboot, was a better campaign. Micro transactionalize certs, to give paizo a slice, and then let independent judges set up a compelling world.

What does that even mean? A better campaign? Better than what? What's a "cert" supposed to be?


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Zaister wrote:
Perfect Tommy wrote:
What Pathfinder needed - rather than a rules reboot, was a better campaign. Micro transactionalize certs, to give paizo a slice, and then let independent judges set up a compelling world.
What does that even mean? A better campaign? Better than what? What's a "cert" supposed to be?

I don’t normally advocate disregarding an argument just because of one part, but I stopped worrying about overall meaning at the bit about adding microtransactions to tabletop gaming.

...

Wait, crud. I’ve actually done that before.


When will we be able to preorder the books?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zaister wrote:
Samy wrote:
Cerushad wrote:
And now I'm leaving for the next haven wherein 3.5 can Thrive.
Yeah I've been googling third party adventure paths a lot today...sadly I found out pretty much all of them have significantly less inspiring art than Pathfinder...

Well that's no surprise. Art is expensive. Good art is even more expensive. Third parties are usually not comparable in size and budget to Paizo.

Also, where do people get the idea that 3.5 couldn't continue to thrive with Pathfinder Second Edition? I see no indication of this. It's just another evolution of the same system. It's a natural progression from D&D 3rd Edition to D&D v.3.5 to Pathfinder to Pathfinder Second Edition. It's all the same game engine.

We don't know hor far the changes will go yet. Some of the stuff listed in the blog sound a lot more than other systems, not based on the same engine. And no dev came out and said: "Hey, you know what? It's still based on 3.0" The closest we had to that was "We will not try and compete with WotC" which can be read in a lot of ways.

On the other hand of statements we had the "etreme version of the rules" statement that points to a huge change.
So, who knows at this point? When August comes and the worst case scenario is here, it turns out they changed the engine or messed it up beyond recognition, I just hope there is a 3PP who steps up to become the next haven


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thzero wrote:
It was too much to hope that Paizo wouldn't jump on the new version train like every other game that has pretty much existed since the original set of RPGs way back in the day.

This quote's from yesterday or basically two days ago, but I wanted to reply to it anyway.

Basically, Paizo kind of has to do this if they want to stay relevant. I can draw a comparison between this situation and what has happened with classic fighting games (think Street Fighter, Tekken, etc.). One of the staple fighting games is Super Street Fighter II Turbo, made back in 1994. To this day, it's considered a pretty good fighting game, a good piece of insight on the genre's history, and a great way to learn fundamental skills applicable to any fighting game.

It's also not selling all that well in 2018. Admittedly this is in part because the systems it was originally on are no longer supported by the market, the arcade boards it runs on are dying off, and so on. The other part of it is that, aside from some remix/remake versions of it... most people who want a copy of 'Super Turbo' already have it. Capcom (the game's publisher) can't keep selling them copies of Super Turbo. Capcom had to move on, because their customers were already satisfied with their purchase of that game and their competitors began making fighting games that drew attention away from Capcom's products. Thus, Capcom began doing new fighting games. Some wildly different (Darkstalkers, Cyberbots, etc.), others more akin to a 'Street Fighter 2nd Edition' such as the Street Fighter Alpha series.

Paizo's situation isn't exactly the same (the CRBs apparently still move steady numbers, I'm told?), but it's not completely different either. In the ensuing decade, their competitors have made new games that pull attention away from the classic. Absent a sudden wave of new interest, and I'm not sure how you'd bring that about, the only trend Pathfinder 1.0 can have long-term is downward. Eventually its existing audience will die out. They'll get bored eventually and move on. Or they'll literally die (age, illness, hit by meteors, etc.). Sooner or later, the audience drops below the point of profitability/sustainability.

Paizo honestly needs to do a 2.0 in order to have a chance of maintaining an active audience and bringing in new people. Whether it will succeed remains to be seen, but they're doing what they have to from a business standpoint.

Super Pathfinder II Turbo (1.0) is a pretty fun game, but the reasons for making Pathfinder Alpha (2.0) are sound and I'm willing to give it a try.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:

when will the last 1e stuff roll out? will july 19 see 1e and August 2e?

July 2019

2019? ok, awesome! :)


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:

I'm excited at reviewing the material.

BUT BASED ON THE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF HOW MAGIC MISSILE WILL WORK SOUNDS ALOT LIKE PAIZO IS TRYING TO SHADOW WHAT WIZARD OF THE COAST HAS DONE WITH 5TH EDITION.

Paizo Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

WOC You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

How is one a shadow of the other? The Pathfinder version is flexible, the D&D version, is fixed. What?

Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:
IThe next thing Paizo is liable to say is that we will be able to cast low level spells with higher spell slots.

You have been able to do that in Pathfinder First Edition from the beginning, and, in fact, in D&D Third Edition, too.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Saint Bernard wrote:
When will we be able to preorder the books?

March 20th, according to their FAQ.

Dark Archive

Alzrius wrote:
Saint Bernard wrote:
When will we be able to preorder the books?
March 20th, according to their FAQ.

correct WOC is fixed and looks like Paizo is moving towards fixed


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:
correct WOC is fixed and looks like Paizo is moving towards fixed

How is "you can choose to get additional missiles by spending additional actions" fixed?


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Zaister wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

you could have gone with Species to distinguish between Humans, Elves, Dwarfes etc. and with Heritage for what is now Alternate Racial Traits.

That would give you a biologically correct term on the top level and a politiically correct term for the diversity.
They've said that they found the term "species" sounding too modern for a fantasy game.

Hah. In RL I'm a molecular biologist, and one of the rants that often comes up in the field is how "species" is an old-fashioned concept that's been becoming steadily less reasonable as a way of describing actual biology since Darwin, and how we wish we could do away with it.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Patrick Shrewsbury wrote:

I'm excited at reviewing the material.

BUT BASED ON THE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF HOW MAGIC MISSILE WILL WORK SOUNDS ALOT LIKE PAIZO IS TRYING TO SHADOW WHAT WIZARD OF THE COAST HAS DONE WITH 5TH EDITION.

Paizo Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

WOC You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

The next thing Paizo is liable to say is that we will be able to cast low level spells with higher spell slots.

I like that you have taken 1 small description and made a conclusion from it about the entirety of the rule set..

Maybe wait til you’ve seen more rules before jumping to extreme conclusions. I see action economy getting easier to teach, but more complex in capability of choices.

I see more crunch being introduced as Vic said above who said anything about ranks going away. So, another example of combining some skillls with other things(combat maneuvers) and increasing the complexity by adding additional skill levels(good, master, expert) to the skill system to determine quality while making stuff.

I see more crunch, so far, but making unwieldy rules easier to understand while increasing options.


DropBearHunter wrote:

you could have gone with Species to distinguish between Humans, Elves, Dwarfes etc. and with Heritage for what is now Alternate Racial Traits.

That would give you a biologically correct term on the top level and a politiically correct term for the diversity.

Not like "species" in the biological sense really applies to world in which some different <whatever-we-call-ems> casually interbreed, new <whatever-we-call-ems> are created by wizards or gods on a semi-regular basis and there is no basic assumption of common descent with modification.

But mostly it sounds like they want to blur those concepts together into one term for anything ancestral, rather then have different terms for what they want to use as the same mechanical concept.

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