First Look at the Pathfinder Playtest

Tuesday, March 6, 2018

Welcome to the next evolution of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

Just shy of 10 years ago, on March 18th, 2008, we asked you to take a bold step with us and download the Alpha Playtest PDF for Pathfinder First Edition. Over the past decade, we've learned a lot about the game and the people who play it. We've talked with you on forums, we've gamed with you at conventions, and we've watched you play online and in person at countless venues. We went from updating mechanics to inventing new ones, adding a breadth of options to the game and making the system truly our own. We've made mistakes, and we've had huge triumphs. Now it is time to take all of that knowledge and make the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game even better.

By now, you've probably read all about the upcoming launch of the Playtest version of the game set to release on August 2nd, 2018 (but just in case you haven't, click here). In the weeks and months leading up to that release, we are going give you an in-depth look at this game, previewing all 12 of the classes and examining many of the most fundamental changes to the game. Of course, that is a long time to wait to get a complete picture, so I wanted to take this opportunity to give you insight into the game, how it works, and why we made the changes that we made. We will be covering these in much more detail later, but we thought it might be useful to give a general overview right now.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

New, but the Same

Our first goal was to make Pathfinder Second Edition feel just like the game you know and love. That means that as a player, you need to be able to make the choices that allow you to build the character you want to play. Similarly, as a Game Master, you need to have the tools and the support to tell the story you want to tell. The rules that make up the game have to fundamentally still fill the same role they did before, even if some of the mechanics behind them are different.

Building a Character

It's worth taking a moment to talk about how characters are built, because we spent a lot of time making this process smoother and more intuitive. You start by selecting your ancestry (which used to be called race), figuring out where you came from and what sorts of basic statistics you have. Next you decide on your background, representing how you were raised and what you did before taking up the life of an adventurer. Finally, you select your class, the profession you have dedicated yourself to as an intrepid explorer. Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

After making the big choices that define your character, you have a variety of smaller choices to make, including assigning skill proficiencies, picking an ancestry feat, buying gear, and deciding on the options presented by your class. Finally, after deciding on all of your choices, the only thing left to do is figure out all of your bonuses, which are now determined by one unified system of proficiency, based on your character's level.

As you go on grand adventures with your character, you will gain experience and eventually level up. Pathfinder characters have exciting and important choices to make every time they gain a level, from selecting new class feats to adding new spells to their repertoires.

Playing the Game

We've made a number of changes to the way the game is played, to clean up the overall flow of play and to add some interesting choices in every part of the story. First up, we have broken play up into three distinct components. Encounter mode is what happens when you are in a fight, measuring time in seconds, each one of which can mean life or death. Exploration mode is measured in minutes and hours, representing travel and investigation, finding traps, decoding ancient runes, or even mingling at the queen's coronation ball. Of all the modes of play, exploration is the most flexible, allowing for easy storytelling and a quick moving narrative. Finally, the downtime mode happens when your characters are back in town, or relative safety, allowing them to retrain abilities, practice a trade, lead an organization, craft items, or recuperate from wounds. Downtime is measured in days, generally allowing time to flow by in an instant.

Most of the game happens in exploration or encounter mode, with the two types of play flowing easily from one to the other. In fact, exploration mode can have a big impact on how combat begins, determining what you roll for your initiative. In a group of four exploring a dungeon, two characters might have their weapons ready, keeping an eye out for danger. Another might be skulking ahead, keeping to the shadows, while the fourth is looking for magic. If combat begins, the first two begin with their weapons drawn, ready for a fight, and they roll Perception for their initiative. The skulking character rolls Stealth for initiative, giving them a chance to hide before the fight even begins. The final adventurer rolls Perception for initiative, but also gains some insight as to whether or not there is magic in the room.

After initiative is sorted out and it's your turn to act, you get to take three actions on your turn, in any combination. Gone are different types of actions, which can slow down play and add confusion at the table. Instead, most things, like moving, attacking, or drawing a weapon, take just one action, meaning that you can attack more than once in a single turn! Each attack after the first takes a penalty, but you still have a chance to score a hit. In Pathfinder Second Edition, most spells take two actions to cast, but there are some that take only one. Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!

Between turns, each character also has one reaction they can take to interrupt other actions. The fighter, for example, has the ability to take an attack of opportunity if a foe tries to move past or its defenses are down. Many classes and monsters have different things they can do with their reactions, making each combat a little bit less predictable and a lot more exciting. Cast a fire spell near a red dragon, for example, and you might just find it takes control of your magic, roasting you and your friends instead of the intended target!

Monsters and Treasure

The changes to the game are happening on both sides of the GM screen. Monsters, traps, and magic items have all gotten significant revisions.

First off, monsters are a lot easier to design. We've moved away from strict monster construction formulas based off type and Hit Dice. Instead, we start by deciding on the creature's rough level and role in the game, then select statistics that make it a balanced and appropriate part of the game. Two 7th-level creatures might have different statistics, allowing them to play differently at the table, despite both being appropriate challenges for characters of that level.

This also makes it easier for us to present monsters, giving us more space to include special abilities and actions that really make a monster unique. Take the fearsome tyrannosaurus, for example; if this terrifying dinosaur gets you in its jaws, it can take an action to fling you up to 20 feet through the air, dealing tremendous damage to you in the process!

Hazards are now a more important part of the game, from rangers creating snares to traps that you have to actively fight against if you want to survive. Poisons, curses, and diseases are a far more serious problem to deal with, having varied effects that can cause serious penalties, or even death.

Of all of the systems that Game Masters interact with, magic items are one of the most important, so we spent extra time ensuring that they are interesting and fun. First and foremost, we have taken significant steps to allow characters to carry the items they want, instead of the items that they feel they must have to succeed. Good armor and a powerful weapon are still critical to the game, but you no longer have to carry a host of other smaller trinkets to boost up your saving throws or ability scores. Instead, you find and make the magic items that grant you cool new things to do during play, giving you the edge against all of the monsters intent on making you into their next meal.

We can't wait until you find your first +1 longsword to see what it can do!

What's Next?

There are a lot of things we are excited to show off, so many in fact that we have to pace ourselves. First off, if you want to hear the game in action right now, we've recorded a special podcast with the folks from the Glass Cannon Network, converting the original Pathfinder First Edition Module, Crypt of the Everflame, to the new edition. Head on over to their site and listen to the first part of this adventure now!

Stop by tomorrow for the first blog taking an in-depth look at Pathfinder Second Edition, starting off with the new system for taking actions, then visit us again on Friday for an exploration of the Glass Cannon game, exploring some of its spoilers in detail!

We Need You!

All of us at Paizo want to take a moment to thank you, the fans, players, and game masters that have made this exciting journey a possibility. It's been a wild ride for the past decade, and speaking personally, I could not be more excited for where we are heading. But, as I am sure you've heard a number of times already, we cannot make this game without you, without your feedback and passion for the game. Thank you for coming with us on this adventure, thank you for contributing to our community, and thank you for playing Pathfinder.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Syrus Terrigan wrote:

...

That, aside from the fact that an entire new game with a new set of rules would have been perfectly fine. But another edition of Pathfinder should have never passed through people's mind. There would be a lot to say about this, but I guess it was said already and will be said again (a quick and minor example: the unchained rules when the system was already nearing the end of its life cycle... it's like "hey', come buy this book to correct how you played till now, nevermind that shortly we'll make you dump it along with all the others"); and if the developers want to take this route anyway, I guess this kind of let down is only natural in any company.

Pathfinder Unchained was released 4 years ago, how is that the end of the life cicle of PF 1st edition?


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Arakasius wrote:
The only time people outside the Paizo sphere mention Pathfinder is to say how outdated it is and that it’s being crushed by 5th.

One thing worth mentioning is that those outside the hobby generally refer to market share in their analysis of one game “crushing” another and that isn’t terribly relevant to a privately owned company like Paizo.

Vic and Lisa can set their own financial goals for Paizo unconcerned with reporting to shareholders and the need to chase ever growing profits. Provided it’s generating what they need out of it and paying the staff (note that they’ve hired a truckload of fresh paizonites recently, so things can’t be all THAT grim) then it doesn’t matter whether there’s more PF players than 5E (or more digital content).

I suspect commercial realities are involved in this decision, but it’s worth bearing in mind that the fan base tends to be rather black-and-white in their analysis of such things. It’s always spoken about in terms of winners and losers, whereas 5E’s success could easily be driving sales to Paizo as well, even while capturing market share. “A rising tide lifts all boats” and so forth.

We have very limited information, but from what I’ve heard from those in the industry, 5E’s success has very much been a renaissance for the TTRPG industry overall. It’s brought in new people, rather than purely forced existing customers to split their expenditure across two producers.


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Right now I'm just waiting for anything about how much of what I have - mainly my six bestiaries - am I going to be able to use in a 2E play.

What scares me the most is thinking about the following years of products that are going to be merely the same concepts from 1E converted into 2E - like bestiaries with the same monsters we already know.

I hope Paizo can quickly "convert" the RPG Line main contents, especially the classes and - if needed - the monsters.

I would be happy to hear that there was no need for Pathfinder 2E Bestiary 1 filled with the classic monsters (the same ones we have in 1E Bestiary 1) because you will be able to easily convert the existing monsters into 2E monsters - just as is the case with Starfinder.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Paizo”s market share is declining, however I don’t think the game is dying.

Lisa Stevens posted recently that PF CRB books have been steady sellers and she didn’t think there’d been any significant drop in sales recently.

I suspect there may have been a drop off in sales of supplements (since they’ve obviously scaled back production in recent times and one would think...

Paizo Market Share is declining, but because the market is bigger.

If you sell 10 millions in a 11 millions market, you have nearly 90% of the market. If 5e comes, and grows market to 31 millions, with Paizo holding 10 millions, 5e holding 20 millions, and everyone else 1 million, then you sell the same, but your market share is lower. This is mostly what is happening here.

I suspect APs still sell well, and core book and "basic additions" such as Advanced Player Guide still sell reasonably well. The extra supplements sell worse, because despite what some people seem to be adamantly believing, there IS a diminishing return in interest the more supplements you get out. A book about adventuring gear, or a book with extra base classes with iconic roots in fantasy, such as Magus, Witch or Alchemist, get more sales than The Complete Book of Halfling Traders With Wet Socks Who Live In Rainy Forest Areas. Niche goods only sell within a niche market.

If like you said there is nearly the same number of people playing the game out there then where is the content? Why can’t I find good guides for most of the newer classes. Where is videos discussing pathfinder content? Where is discussion/articles of the game going on outside message boards?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Arakasius wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Paizo”s market share is declining, however I don’t think the game is dying.

Lisa Stevens posted recently that PF CRB books have been steady sellers and she didn’t think there’d been any significant drop in sales recently.

I suspect there may have been a drop off in sales of supplements (since they’ve obviously scaled back production in recent times and one would think...

Paizo Market Share is declining, but because the market is bigger.

If you sell 10 millions in a 11 millions market, you have nearly 90% of the market. If 5e comes, and grows market to 31 millions, with Paizo holding 10 millions, 5e holding 20 millions, and everyone else 1 million, then you sell the same, but your market share is lower. This is mostly what is happening here.

I suspect APs still sell well, and core book and "basic additions" such as Advanced Player Guide still sell reasonably well. The extra supplements sell worse, because despite what some people seem to be adamantly believing, there IS a diminishing return in interest the more supplements you get out. A book about adventuring gear, or a book with extra base classes with iconic roots in fantasy, such as Magus, Witch or Alchemist, get more sales than The Complete Book of Halfling Traders With Wet Socks Who Live In Rainy Forest Areas. Niche goods only sell within a niche market.

If like you said there is nearly the same number of people playing the game out there then where is the content? Why can’t I find good guides for most of the newer classes. Where is videos discussing pathfinder content? Where is discussion/articles of the game going on outside message boards?

If there isn't the same number, how do you account for the constancy of sales of the Core Rulebook?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think you're overvaluing the scant information you have access to. It's fun for us to speculate, but there's a massive amount we don't know.

I'd never even consider judging a game's success based on 'amount of video content' for example. I'd never think to look for any such thing. Maybe there's an overlap between the PF Players who switched to 5E and those who made videos. If so - how are you measuring the new 5E players who then switched to PF? (Or how do you account for people like me - I run PF Adventures in Golarion using the 5E ruleset. I'm technically a 5E player, but I spend way more money on Paizo products than WotC).


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is exciting!

Here is the number one thing I love about Pathfinder and want to see carried forward:
The ability to use the classes in various combinations in order to represent the character I envision. I *love* class-specific archetypes in Pathfinder and I *love* the idea of floating archetypes in Starfinder (even if the first two archetypes are kind of meh). I like the idea of a hybrid system. Maybe there are class-specific archetypes that are bound to one (or several!) specific classes, but there are also archetypes that can be layered on to any class to give it some extra abilities.

I also love gestalt (even though that's never been officially supported in Pathfinder) and variant multi-classing.

I have always felt about Prestige Classes and class-specific archetypes the way that some people feel about backgrounds: they force you to make a large set of choices just to get one ability that fits your character. I don't like that. I know PF and SF will always be class-based systems (and that's great!) but I like the ability mix and match my character's abilities a little more.

Can't wait to start playtesting in August! Will there be PFS playtest tables at GenCon?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'd never even consider judging a game's success based on 'amount of video content' for example. I'd never think to look for any such thing. Maybe there's an overlap between the PF Players who switched to 5E and those who made videos. If so - how are you measuring the new 5E players who then switched to PF? (Or how do you account for people like me - I run PF Adventures in Golarion using the 5E ruleset. I'm technically a 5E player, but I spend way more money on Paizo products than WotC).

I've seen and heard of this quite a lot lately... It weirds me out. If you're using PF design and adventures, why are you playing with the 5e ruleset? What drove you to the simpler system?

On the flipside, on Sunday I have an AP to run for a full group of Pathfinder newbies who are ready to 'graduate up from 5e'.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Arakasius wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Paizo”s market share is declining, however I don’t think the game is dying.

Lisa Stevens posted recently that PF CRB books have been steady sellers and she didn’t think there’d been any significant drop in sales recently.

I suspect there may have been a drop off in sales of supplements (since they’ve obviously scaled back production in recent times and one would think...

Paizo Market Share is declining, but because the market is bigger.

If you sell 10 millions in a 11 millions market, you have nearly 90% of the market. If 5e comes, and grows market to 31 millions, with Paizo holding 10 millions, 5e holding 20 millions, and everyone else 1 million, then you sell the same, but your market share is lower. This is mostly what is happening here.

I suspect APs still sell well, and core book and "basic additions" such as Advanced Player Guide still sell reasonably well. The extra supplements sell worse, because despite what some people seem to be adamantly believing, there IS a diminishing return in interest the more supplements you get out. A book about adventuring gear, or a book with extra base classes with iconic roots in fantasy, such as Magus, Witch or Alchemist, get more sales than The Complete Book of Halfling Traders With Wet Socks Who Live In Rainy Forest Areas. Niche goods only sell within a niche market.

If like you said there is nearly the same number of people playing the game out there then where is the content? Why can’t I find good guides for most of the newer classes. Where is videos discussing pathfinder content? Where is discussion/articles of the game going on outside message boards?

What you're missing is that this sint like a new game you play at home being released.

This isn't Super Mario Galaxy coming out and giving Mario players a new game while not affecting their previous Mario games.

This is turning off the servers.

This is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic coming out and the servers for Star Wars Galaxies being permanently shut down.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Arakasius wrote:


If like you said there is nearly the same number of people playing the game out there then where is the content? Why can’t I find good guides for most of the newer classes. Where is videos discussing pathfinder content? Where is discussion/articles of the game going on outside message boards?

Because the newer books and the newer classes are not selling that well, being more niche. I already mentioned that, The complete book of absolutely niche character TM sells poorly, in every system.

That does not mean the AP aren't selling, or that newcomers buying the Core Book and APG don't exist. Paizo has said that 2017 generated more revenue for them than 2016, and I believe. Starfinder is probably the reason why.
However, 5e still dwarfs them, and even if they are holding well right now, they have witnessed a chance to take a bigger share of the current pie, or even better, adding more pie like 5e did. If they think they can do that, there's no reason not to.


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Nathanael Love wrote:
This is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic...

Nope, because they are not stealing your books.

This is Diablo 3 caming out, and Diablo 2 keep running on Battle.net, but not getting any more patches or expansions.


Nathanael Love wrote:


This is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic coming out and the servers for Star Wars Galaxies being permanently shut down.

but worry not, while the servers may be shut down, you can still buy the game in every store


Purplefixer wrote:

I've seen and heard of this quite a lot lately... It weirds me out. If you're using PF design and adventures, why are you playing with the 5e ruleset? What drove you to the simpler system?

Simplicity, maybe.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There's something that gives me a little bit of hope, so I'm going to share it in case it helps anyone else, too:

If you look at the Recruitment forum for messageboard games here, older APs tend to get advertised quite often. Pathfinder has a fairly solid community mentality for not forgetting older APs, and going back to them even years later, as if they were classics. And obviously, those APs were written for 1e. So I think it's possible that even after 2e, there might be the occasional opportunity to play 1e Carrion Crown or 1e Hell's Vengeance.


Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

This is a very valid concern.

My suspicion, however, is generic things such as "power attack" no longer will be feats. However, the feat chain "rage" might be locked behind the background "barbarian". Which you could take for your fighter, or cleric, or rogue. The feat chain "bladesinging" might be locked behind ancestry "elf", and you could develop that chain for your wizard, sorcerer, fighter or bard. And so on.


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Purplefixer wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'd never even consider judging a game's success based on 'amount of video content' for example. I'd never think to look for any such thing. Maybe there's an overlap between the PF Players who switched to 5E and those who made videos. If so - how are you measuring the new 5E players who then switched to PF? (Or how do you account for people like me - I run PF Adventures in Golarion using the 5E ruleset. I'm technically a 5E player, but I spend way more money on Paizo products than WotC).
I've seen and heard of this quite a lot lately... It weirds me out. If you're using PF design and adventures, why are you playing with the 5e ruleset? What drove you to the simpler system?

It was kind of a compromise - 5E is too complicated for my tastes but we have people in the group who like "building" characters, so we eventually settled there.

More broadly though, we've always moved around when it comes to systems. I came to Paizo for the adventures and Golarion - since discovering them most of what I run has been APs or Paizo modules and when it isn't it's always set in Golarion.

When I DM I leave choice of system to my players - we've played APs in GURPS, 4E, 5E, PF, rolemaster and Swords and Wizardry. Over time, they've kind of settled into 5E as 'complicated enough' but not too much.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm totally looking forward to this, a I pretty much did every edition of D&D when they came out. I tried them all before I decided whether or not I liked them and would play them (only 1 edition I didn't care for.)

As a player and GM, I prefer a more comprehensive rule set (think things like crafting items, a robust skill system, etc.) However, to me, comprehensive doesn't have to mean "complex" or "complicated." So, if I can have a comprehensive rule set that is simpler, then I'm all for it.

It's far too early to tell how much PF2 will be like Starfinder or even 5e. Certainly, from reading, it seems that PF2 will have elements or design principles from both, but that's now. Who knows what the final product will be?

All I ask is that people give it a fair chance. The playtest rules will be free (in .pdf). So, you won't be out anything but time.

Paizo has demonstrated an uncommonly generous knack for listening to their player base. I have no reason to think this will be any different.


In a sense, I find this pretty similar to another of my big gaming interests. Pokemon is running effectively 1.984375e if you keep up the fractional labelling. It's been through enough iterations that there are dozens of options outclassed by something else, and the devs have only recently been taking a serious look at balance (and its not always for the format most people play). Is 807 bloated? Probably. But I don't want a reboot.

A reboot would, by necessity of having to start primarily at the beginning, will have to cut some options. And while "the best bug-type rapid spinner" may not mean much to most people (especially those that just use defog), I love playing a team with 6 bug types, I'll need hazard removal, and I don't want to sacrifice my own webs. The likes of Armaldo, Claydol, Galvantula, even massive pools of raw stats like Stakataka are extremely niche, but I'd take them over the mainstream any day. Because to me, Aggron has more fun memories and Malamar more interesting potential than the "core" ever will. I don't want to wait another 18 years from the beginning to finalize a swords-only team, I don't want hazard-stacking bug monotypes to disappear into history, I don't want a ruleset that can't produce fascinating quirks like a level 1 soloing a team of level 100s.

PF is much the same. My main classes are Occult, I stock my games with NPCs that are mostly just chargen experiments in their 15 minutes of fame. I Just got a request for a friend GMing, and I enjoyed digging through to decide on Hate-monger Mesemerist, Grave Warden Slayer, Warpriest into Sentinel, and Forensic Physician investigator. I don't need more ways of doing core concepts, I need to increase the radius of concepts I can produce.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

I think the blog has been somewhat misleading on that front, based on reading comments like these, and I can see why looking back on that wording now. To my knowledge, though the design space is of course still there, there isn't anything in the playtest document that specifically requires a particular background in order to take it. Now there are some things where having a background can give you a nice kickstart towards getting there sooner, but that's a different situation!

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed some posts and replies to posts. I understand that other folks reactions and feelings are not always easy or clear to understand, however, on our forums its not appropriate to attempt to invalidate other community member's reactions or feelings. There isn't a whole lot of information about the content of the Playtest yet and threads like this are going to be full mostly of people's reactions and initial feelings towards this news. If you cannot let people have space to process what this means for their games or how they like to play, step back from posting until you can.


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I was always coming. You should have expected me. After all, I am neither Spanish, nor Inquisition.


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Joana wrote:
Patrick Newcarry wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
Will I be able to print my Golarion-centric Adventure Path ("World In Chains", because Zon-Kuthon needs more love) as a 1e third party product once the line is dropped?
In all seriousness, though, you will be able to publish your 1e AP under the OGL as a third party, as per the FAQ they released yesterday.
Actually, by my understanding (IANAL), that AP is unpublishable under any ruleset. It's not a question of OGL but of Paizo's intellectual property. No one else is allowed to use Golarion places, deities, proper nouns, etc.

Well as a slaad, I am not a lawyer, but you can release your AP, modules, stores, classes, whatever that uses Paizo IP, but you have to do it under the Community Use License which doesn't allow you to charge for it. This is how Wayfinder and the Pathfinder Chronicler Anthologies work.

You can still release your AP under the OGL and Pathfinder Compatibility License and charge for it, but you will have to strip out any Paizo intellectual property. This includes proper names, organizations, deities, and other Golarion-specific lore.

Grand Lodge

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


PLEASE USE POCKET EDITION SIZE!

Seriously, not only is it good for the environment, but it also cuts down on the weight of carrying books around and should have been an innovation from the start and please do not forget this lesson!

And I'll ask that we please do not do this. The pocket editions are a cool innovation, but I cannot stand reading print that small.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
This is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic...

Nope, because they are not stealing your books.

This is Diablo 3 caming out, and Diablo 2 keep running on Battle.net, but not getting any more patches or expansions.

Actually there was a patch released for Diablo II just last year.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:


What you're missing is that this sint like a new game you play at home being released.

This isn't Super Mario Galaxy coming out and giving Mario players a new game while not affecting their previous Mario games.

That's... actually exactly what's happening.

Quote:

This is turning off the servers.

This is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic coming out and the servers for Star Wars Galaxies being permanently shut down.

When an MMO's servers are shut down it becomes impossible to play the game at all without resorting to underground methods like private servers that companies generally will try to shut down when they can.

Do you honestly believe that Paizo is going to actively try to make it impossible to play Pathfinder once 2e goes live?

I can't fathom how you think your second example is more accurate here.

Shadow Lodge

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Whew, finally caught up.

Candlelight wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I see a lot of people considering whether Pathfinder Second Edition is an evolution of Starfinder. It isn't. Starfinder and Pathfinder Second Edition are both evolutions of Pathfinder First Edition. And both were being worked on at the same time, so each also informed the other. I would say they're siblings.
That's basically the worst news that could be hoped for.

Agreed. Starfinder wasn't supposed to cause any problems and then we got Shifter. Now that we know it was half Pathfinder 2's fault it doesn't make things look any better. Now that they are publicly working on 2E we can only guess how much errata and FAQs we will be able to scrounge from Paizo in the future for a system they will no longer be supporting. Kudos, Paizo, really...

Steve Geddes wrote:
The designers are probably itching to design a game unshackled by the 3.5 constraints and there’s probably good business reasons to launch the change now.

If it didn't sound like they were shackling it to 5E I'm sure more people would be excited.

Liberty's Edge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

This is a very valid concern.

My suspicion, however, is generic things such as "power attack" no longer will be feats. However, the feat chain "rage" might be locked behind the background "barbarian". Which you could take for your fighter, or cleric, or rogue. The feat chain "bladesinging" might be locked behind ancestry "elf", and you could develop that chain for your wizard, sorcerer, fighter or bard. And so on.

I'm under the impression that racial feats will be in the core rulebook. And that maybe, your ancestry will become stronger as you level up, by giving you bonus racial (or ancestry) feats.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
This isn't Super Mario Galaxy coming out and giving Mario players a new game while not affecting their previous Mario games.
That's... actually exactly what's happening.

"Exactly", if Super Mario Galaxy is a multiplayer game whose enjoyment largely depends on how easy it is to find play groups.

Pathfinder is not a solo game. If it were, sure, I could just keep my 1e books and happily run the game until 2050. But it's not like that. Pathfinder, as a group game, is *HEAVILY* dependent on whether you can find other 1e players. So any analogy of "exactly what's happening" has to include that aspect.

I dare anyone to honestly, genuinely believe that fracturing one unified fanbase (Pathfinder) into *three* (1e, Starfinder and 2e) will make it *easier* to find 1e groups. Sure, an influx of new players might happen, but enough to offset everyone migrating from 1e to SF and/or 2e? Highly unlikely.

Recent developments *will make* it harder to play 1e in the future. Period.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Well as a slaad, I am not a lawyer, but you can release your AP, modules, stores, classes, whatever that uses Paizo IP, but you have to do it under the Community Use License which doesn't allow you to charge for it. This is how Wayfinder and the Pathfinder Chronicler Anthologies work.

You can still release your AP under the OGL and Pathfinder Compatibility License and charge for it, but you will have to strip out any Paizo intellectual property. This includes proper names, organizations, deities, and other Golarion-specific lore.

Hence my question in the hopes the developers will see it. :p

Currently it's still only a six module outline, two levels of play, a wound/scars system, a small settlement, and a sketchy host of equally sketchy NPCs (and about 800mb of filched art) with a ream of notes and ideas attatched, but it's ready for contact with PCs and fleshing out.

Still, I went to university with the specific aims of increasing my Pathfinder-Attractiveness-Quotient and I have a big fat folder of testable stuff to show for it that really wants me to sit down and finish my final revisions and *publish* it. I know it wants this, because the text documents sometimes visit me at night and whisper mean things in my dreams...

I have an Operator Class (chassis off the Synthesist/Gunslinger) that's ready for print, and a lay-on-hands master that uses both mercies and cruelties to shift health around, and a technologist with a unit (haha) of robotic minions to charge and fire like less-temporary summons, both ready for play testing round one.

So yeah... plenty of my own painstakingly balanced stuff with my own IP or no IP at all to pub, but if they're done with 1e, can we 3rd Party 1e on their setting license?


Hythlodeus wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
are you saying that customers who wanted 2nd editon aren't "real customers"?

no, why, are you implying I'm not a 'real' customer?

look, I wouldn't be against a second edition per se if a couple of things were guaranteed, like a new edition that is more of an update (like3.5 was to 3.0 or PF was to 3.5), incorporating a couple of good ideas but not a huge rebuild from scratch and/or if it is easyly backwards compatible. that way everyone would have their cake, everbody had a choice, everybody would be happy, those who wanted a second edition would have a second edition, the rest of us could still have access to new content.
The decision was made to cut off a part of the customers by doing something different and I don't think that's very customer friendly

Though I do not know if they are doing a huge rebuild from scratch or not, I hope they are not doing a rebuild.

Instead I hope it turns out more like what you describe, where it is more of an update with some of the new ideas that have been tossed out there (as the Action economy from Unchained certainly seems to be incorporated, but it WAS out there already in PF as an option) rather than an entirely new rebuild. I would highly hope that it would be more of the update idea (which would also make it very easy for backwards compatibility) rather than something that is created from scratch.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
The designers are probably itching to design a game unshackled by the 3.5 constraints and there’s probably good business reasons to launch the change now.
If it didn't sound like they were shackling it to 5E I'm sure more people would be excited.

I think people are over-reading that.

The fact they have similar design goals doesn't imply the games will be very similar. Both 4E and 3.5 aimed to let you pretend to be an elf fighting a dragon, yet they fulfilled that brief in very different ways.

Similarly, I suspect there are many ways to meet the broad goals of "making it easy to teach new players" and so forth. Just because 5E did that by streamlining character creation to a few, key choices doesn't mean PF will follow the same path.

One thing some skeptics are not weighting heavily enough is that the Paizo designers are gamers who like customisable, rules-crunchy systems. They want to make a popular game sure. But they also want to make a game they want to play.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

I think the blog has been somewhat misleading on that front, based on reading comments like these, and I can see why looking back on that wording now. To my knowledge, though the design space is of course still there, there isn't anything in the playtest document that specifically requires a particular background in order to take it. Now there are some things where having a background can give you a nice kickstart towards getting there sooner, but that's a different situation!

This brings up something else. I don't think class feats and ancestry feats should be called that if they're distinct from normal feat progressions. Unless normal feat progressions is absent, they should be called talents. Not only to avoid confusion (race traits and racial traits anyone?), but also because everyone is clearly understanding this to mean that every feat is now locked to a certain class, and thus all character concepts are entirely class dependent.


Samy wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
This isn't Super Mario Galaxy coming out and giving Mario players a new game while not affecting their previous Mario games.
That's... actually exactly what's happening.

"Exactly", if Super Mario Galaxy is a multiplayer game whose enjoyment largely depends on how easy it is to find play groups.

Pathfinder is not a solo game. If it were, sure, I could just keep my 1e books and happily run the game until 2050. But it's not like that. Pathfinder, as a group game, is *HEAVILY* dependent on whether you can find other 1e players. So any analogy of "exactly what's happening" has to include that aspect.

I dare anyone to honestly, genuinely believe that fracturing one unified fanbase (Pathfinder) into *three* (1e, Starfinder and 2e) will make it *easier* to find 1e groups. Sure, an influx of new players might happen, but enough to offset everyone migrating from 1e to SF and/or 2e? Highly unlikely.

Recent developments *will make* it harder to play 1e in the future. Period.

No, if your group like PF as you do. You won't play with me, you will play with your group, so what game I play won't affect you.

Now, if what you fear is that people in your group who don't really like PF as much as you do no longer will be shackled to play it, that's a valid concern.

Liberty's Edge

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I wouldn't mind if the "pseudo-feats" that every class gets got a standard name. Rogue talents, Alchemist discoveries, Ninja tricks, Oracle revelations, Drunkard effervescences, etc etc etc... this concept of having to come up with a separate name for every class' "select one" mechanic has gotten to the point of absurdity.


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Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

I think the blog has been somewhat misleading on that front, based on reading comments like these, and I can see why looking back on that wording now. To my knowledge, though the design space is of course still there, there isn't anything in the playtest document that specifically requires a particular background in order to take it. Now there are some things where having a background can give you a nice kickstart towards getting there sooner, but that's a different situation!
This brings up something else. I don't think class feats and ancestry feats should be called that if they're distinct from normal feat progressions. Unless normal feat progressions is absent, they should be called talents. Not only to avoid confusion (race traits and racial traits anyone?), but also because everyone is clearly understanding this to mean that every feat is now locked to a certain class, and thus all character concepts are entirely class dependent.

This, as everyones favourite oots strip highlights a thesaurus is a long term investment that will avoid much confusion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow! That's a lot of angst to read in one sitting!

Pathfinder is more than ready for a 2nd edition. Just a few days ago, I posted on a thread about mounted combat, and I thought to myself, wouldn't it be far better if the game system were redesigned from the ground up?

I'm eager to see what Pathfinder 2ed edition has in store for us. Those who still want to play PF as DD3.x will continue to do so, just as folks who play OD&D continue to do so.

All I can say is, I hope the folks at Paizo are ambitious enough to make a great gaming experience even better!

Go Paizo!

Liberty's Edge

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:
Recent developments *will make* it harder to play 1e in the future. Period.
No, if your group like PF as you do. You won't play with me, you will play with your group, so what game I play won't affect you.

No, but how many people do play 1e *will* affect me when I'm looking for group.


Purplefixer wrote:
So yeah... plenty of my own painstakingly balanced stuff with my own IP or no IP at all to pub, but if they're done with 1e, can we 3rd Party 1e on their setting license?

Per the FAQ, you as a 3PP will still be able to release PF1e compatible products. You still can't use Paizo's IP (what I assume you mean by "their setting") in any for-pay product though.


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Note you also can't use their IP via the Community Use Policy if they consider you are "in the publishing business".

(So you can't release your own campaign setting via the OGL/PF Compatibility License and then also produce separate adventures set in Golarion under the CUP).


If peoples first exposure to the game makes a better impression, we'll have more new players. I have introduced a lot of people to Pathfinder. It is not an easy process. Some players even just rely on you totally to remember all the rules for them because its too hard to parse themselves.

In short, lets burn down the grapple flow chart and let flowers bloom in the ashes.

Silver Crusade

Samy wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:
Recent developments *will make* it harder to play 1e in the future. Period.
No, if your group like PF as you do. You won't play with me, you will play with your group, so what game I play won't affect you.
No, but how many people do play 1e *will* affect me when I'm looking for group.

The internet exists. You'll be fine.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:

Agreed. Starfinder wasn't supposed to cause any problems and then we got Shifter. Now that we know it was half Pathfinder 2's fault it doesn't make things look any better. Now that they are publicly working on 2E we can only guess how much errata and FAQs we will be able to scrounge from Paizo in the future for a system they will no longer be supporting. Kudos, Paizo, really...

If it didn't sound like they were shackling it to 5E I'm sure more people would be excited.

Ya....I think we should have seen this coming....it was just so "out there" that it didn't. I assumed SF was causing all of the problems....never occured to me that they had PF2 on the table....distracting them from the quality of content....

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
Samy wrote:
how many people do play 1e *will* affect me when I'm looking for group.
The internet exists. You'll be fine.

Don't patronize me. The situation on the Internet isn't good enough now, and it's only going to get worse.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
Samy wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:
Recent developments *will make* it harder to play 1e in the future. Period.
No, if your group like PF as you do. You won't play with me, you will play with your group, so what game I play won't affect you.
No, but how many people do play 1e *will* affect me when I'm looking for group.
The internet exists. You'll be fine.

playing with strangers on the internet will never get you the same experience as playing with friends around the kitchen table


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Samy wrote:
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
Samy wrote:
how many people do play 1e *will* affect me when I'm looking for group.
The internet exists. You'll be fine.
Don't patronize me. The situation on the Internet isn't good enough now, and it's only going to get worse.

Yeah, I do wish people would stop trying to shut down those for whom this announcement is basically "switch systems or stop playing". It might not be the case for everyone, but looking for players on the internet is not an option for me and neither is sticking with 1E, as it's a group decision.

Also, (in regard to the 'my books are invalidated' or similar) a big part of why I enjoy Pathfinder is the ongoing support. I love getting new hardcovers, new adventures and new player companions full of options - irrespective of their utility. It's not entirely rational, but I'm more excited to run my upcoming Carrion Crown game because I just received the first installment of War for the Crown.

That ongoing support (for 1E) is going to cease and I think people disappointed about that should be allowed to say they're disappointed. Maybe it's not technically "invalidated" or "redundant" or whatever, but who cares? It's an expression of sentiment not a legal claim.

(FWIW, I don't think Paizo owe me continued support - so I don't agree with those who express this feeling as 'betrayal' or some kind of attack from paizo. It's nonetheless sad though - we don't play PF very much and I had hoped to run a vigilante one day. I suspect that day has been pushed back quite some way now and is going to depend on it coming out in PF2 at a convenient time for my group's switching campaigns).


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyubey_ wrote:
Quote:
Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

This has me the most worried. Why are feat chain locked off because certain background was selected? Why can my character grow naturally and pick feats that make sense.

Lets say Power Attack is locked away for nomad background, why can't soldier learn to power attack? Why can my arcane warrior/gish learn power attack? Especially this is a background thing.

I think the blog has been somewhat misleading on that front, based on reading comments like these, and I can see why looking back on that wording now. To my knowledge, though the design space is of course still there, there isn't anything in the playtest document that specifically requires a particular background in order to take it. Now there are some things where having a background can give you a nice kickstart towards getting there sooner, but that's a different situation!

So are the background-based feats more akin to what used to be racial traits or feats? I'm going to be honest, while the intent may have been to simplify stuff, creating all these lists of feats is going to be really hard to parse properly. Harder than it is currently I'm not sure about, but it's still going to be a bit of a mess if people are looking for an effect they want instead of looking for what options they have available to them in their current class/background/ancestry.

Grand Lodge

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Everything sounds great except for this.

Quote:
Finally, after deciding on all of your choices, the only thing left to do is figure out all of your bonuses, which are now determined by one unified system of proficiency, based on your character's level.

This sounds like the stuff I hated about D&D 4th Edition, and why I was so excited to buy Pathfinder instead.

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