You're Gonna Flip Over These Tiles!

This is very interesting news, looking forward to seeing where you take the line from here!

Ohhh, neat, one of the reasons I stiated collecting flipmats is how many times can I reuse the same castle?

This, I am instantly enthusiastic for.

Design request:

Could each tile face have a unique alpha-numeric code on it?

I want to be able to lay out a dungeon, quickly mark which tiles I've used and how they are oriented, and then pack it away.

I need to be able to write down a large dungeon layout and then quickly recreate it weeks or months later just by looking at a layout with numerical codes for which tile is in which position.

And no, taking a picture of it is not at all the same thing. I don't want to have to identify which tile is in each position and then do a visual search to see if I can match the pixels and orientation.

I need to know that tile AA22 is adjacent to tile XY43, and is flanked on the other side by tile MQ51

What CrystalSeas said!

This is so flippin' amazeballs! but yeah having a way to identify each face would be awesomesauce.

I have a question, and that is about slippage. One of the reasons that I don’t enjoy using map packs at conventions is that the cards slip around. I can correct this a bit by putting a vinyl map under them, and a clear vinyl sheet over them. Still... how slippery are these new tiles?

Hmm

How does my map subscription work going into this? Do I need a new one or is this part of it?

Hmm, these remind me a lot of the map tiles when 4E did the heavy miniatures combat focus.

I'd like to see Paizo do the digital map routine with this. Program to make our own custom tile maps out of these. Print or display, would be awesome.

Nifty idea. I am excite!

Could each tile face have a unique alpha-numeric code on it?

This would be bloody brilliant. Sadly, the product may already be at the printer.

I have a question, and that is about slippage. One of the reasons that I don’t enjoy using map packs at conventions is that the cards slip around. I can correct this a bit by putting a vinyl map under them, and a clear vinyl sheet over them.

Here's what I do.

I love you, Earl! Your map solutions are always great.

This is pretty promising! I always enjoy seeing you guys improve on what you've been doing.

I do second the request for IDs or labels. One of the big problems with the map-pack form-factor was in the cases where you had a big map made out of 10 or 12 tiles and you had no idea where the heck the individual tiles were supposed to go. Labels are by far the easiest way to solve this problem and I think it's a great idea!

If there are no codes on the tiles you can do this.

Setup the board ahead of time then start at the top left and pick up the top row one tile at a time. Then the next row etc. Make sure you keep the orientation the same as you stack the tiles. Put a rubber band around each row or two rows whatever. Keep the row stacks in order. Then at the game unpack and row by row place the tiles. Snapping a picture before packing can also help. :)

Idea number two. Get a super fine marker and write alphanumeric codes on the edges of the tiles. You can even do it so you have each edge different to help with orientation.

Ie:

A001-1
A001-2
A001-3
A001-4

A002-1
A002-2
A002-3
A002-4

It's nice that all the tiles are the same side. I have tiles that are all different sizes and that is both good and bad.

Edit: Technically you can get away with writing on less edges, but whatever.

I suppose if we all used the same convention we could share maps. :)

I'll likely use my label maker to ID each one, but great ideas all around here. Looking forward to this evolution of the line.

Okay I just thought up a convention that I think would work.

For this set it is:

(Start at the top left of the picture. Left to right top to bottom.)

DSS01 to DSS21

Top is "North" not really but you know what I mean.

You would write DSS01-1 on the North edge of the top left tile. (Yes orientation is pointless for this tile but this is an example.)

The put a 2 on the east edge, a 3 on the south edge and a 4 on the west edge. You don't need the full designation on each edge. You could do it but it would take much longer to write it all out.

Then when you right do the positions you do it like this.

DSS01-1A or DSS01-1B

A is the top side B is the bottom side.

Then you always do the layout from top left, left to right top to bottom.

Always calling out the "North" edge.

Make sense?

Hmm just thought of a few improvements that will help with multiple sets and irregular row and column sizes. Will post later though as it's late. :(

Will the Starter Set box be large enough to accommodate an expansion pack or two? Please make this the case as it would make storing and transporting them very convenient.

I have a question, and that is about slippage. One of the reasons that I don’t enjoy using map packs at conventions is that the cards slip around. I can correct this a bit by putting a vinyl map under them, and a clear vinyl sheet over them. Still... how slippery are these new tiles?

Hmm

You can also pick up a non-slip drawer liner. A 12x120 inch roll costs about $8 online, or about $5 at Walmart. That would be far easier to use as you just lay it out ahead of time and place your tiles on it as they're used. You can cut it to the size needed, and it also rolls up nicely for transport.

How does my map subscription work going into this? Do I need a new one or is this part of it?

According to the product schedule page they are part of the maps subscription, coming in April.

Do the squares not line up with the edge of the tiles? The picture show there is a spacing between the square line and the edge. This would make it difficult to place them edge-to-edge. Or did the designer expect us to have the tiles placed overlapping each other?

What CrystalSeas said!

This is so flippin' amazeballs! but yeah having a way to identify each face would be awesomesauce.

Yes. We are working on a couple of solutions for an identification scheme. We want these things to be as easy to use and reuse as possible.

I'll be writing another blog in the next month or so about these products, so I will make sure and outline how we've decided to do it.

Great suggestions! Thank you.

I have a question, and that is about slippage. One of the reasons that I don’t enjoy using map packs at conventions is that the cards slip around. I can correct this a bit by putting a vinyl map under them, and a clear vinyl sheet over them. Still... how slippery are these new tiles?

Hmm

Well, they are going to be slippery. That's the nature of having them accommodate various types of markers. We just can't change physics. But I did notice some folks solutions to limit slippage, check them out.

When I use them, I use a bit of scotch tape to connect the tiles. I can fold some tiles under others in some instances, and change the map with little fuss. The larger play space also has the benefit of limiting slippage.

Will the Starter Set box be large enough to accommodate an expansion pack or two? Please make this the case as it would make storing and transporting them very convenient.

Probably not (I have not seen a physical prototype yet). Leaving a lot of space in these kinds of cartons can create shipping issues. But each comes in its own snug carton. Of course, the starter sets are larger, so you could grab your tiles from wherever sets you want for your game, put them in the bigger box and head to your game.

Do the squares not line up with the edge of the tiles? The picture show there is a spacing between the square line and the edge. This would make it difficult to place them edge-to-edge. Or did the designer expect us to have the tiles placed overlapping each other?

The mock-up on this page looks like it is using the tiles with the full bleed. When Jason Engle creates the art for tiles, he always leaves a bleed which helps to create nice snug tiles during the manufacturing (i.e., no dead space at the edges).

The final tiles will line up fine, just like the old Map Pack tiles do.

Many thoughts...

First, I like the change to a 6x6 square. I think it will be more flexible and facilitate more variable designs (and thus, more usage) because tiles can be rotated without causing uneven edges.

Second, i LOVE that they are going to be two-sided. Sometimes, two-sided to give you two different options is fine. But the real utility of two-sided tiles is having two versions of the same area - open door vs closed door; secret door unknown vs secret door revealed; open passage vs cave in; hidden trap vs sprung trap; dry vs flooded; neat and tidy vs trashed; whole vs ruined; summer forest vs winter forest; complete bridge vs broken bridge; etc. A GM can set up an encounter, and depending on what players do, what doors they open, what traps they spring, all she needs to do is flip the map tile to reveal what the scene looks like after the players have triggered the change. Brilliant. The list above includes some of the more common before/after combos, but you could also do an occasional special campaign-tied tile with something unique to a really special moment in an adventure - a magic orrery in action vs deactivated; a key statue complete and broken (sorry, I'm having trouble thinking of adventure=specific binaries).

Third, I like the idea of having a small, discrete number/letter code on each card. If it's small, it would be distracting during play (Flip Mats all have the Paizo log and a name printed on them). It would make it easier for GMs to track builds, and it would make it a lot easier for adventure writers to say exactly which tiles GMs need to build certain encounters.

Finally, a request - PLEASE try to be consistent in your naming of sets and, to a certain extent, in what sets include. Paizo has a bad habit of being inconsistent with naming. Back in the old days of Item Cards, the same item would have different names in different packs; is it a "Small Shield" or a "Shield, Small" or a "Wooden Shield," is it a "Holy Symbol" or a "Holy Symbol (evil)" or an "Unholy Symbol," etc. The same thing kinda' happened with Map Tiles... Sea Caves looked more like Underground Rivers, etc. I know that the first set, the Dungeon Starter Set, is going to have a little bit of everything. That's perfect. And the occasional niche set with a little bit of everything is fine and interesting, too. But for your standards - dungeons, caves, sewers, forests and other wilderness areas - recognize that you have some basic structures that repeat: passages and chambers, and then more unique details and designs. Passages might be passages in a dungeon, tunnels in a cave, paths in a forest, or alleys in a city. Chambers might be rooms or chambers in a dungeon, caverns in a cave, clearings in a forest or swamp, and streets and plazas in a city. But basically you have "long, skinnies" and "open spaces." If there were a lot of cards in each sets, I'd say you could do both in each, and maybe each environment will have a Starter Set, which would be great. But more likely, sets are going to be smaller, like 18-20 tiles, which won't be enough to "cover" an environment completely. So for your most important environments, just plan on doing 2-3 sets - a corridors/pathways set, a chambers/spaces set, and maybe a details set (including a few transitions to other sets). Paizo kinda' did this with the Map Tiles, but sometimes they would skip and just do corridors and never do the open spaces. That's what I mean by being more consistent. Again, not every environment needs the full treatment; I don't need a 3-part set for circuses or buildings-under-construction, but swamps... yeah, I could use a Swamp Paths, a Swamp Clearings, and a Swamp Details. Rivers, too. And Mountains and Mines and Sewers. And one more thought on corridors, whether you like my 3-set idea or not... please throw in some variety in corridor width. 10' wide is a good standard size, but once in a while, throw in a couple of 20' wide corridors and a tight 5', just once in a while, please.

Overall, I'm really looking forward to the new Flip Tiles.

Will these be the same thickness and material as the existing map packs?

I'll be writing another blog in the next month or so about these products, so I will make sure and outline how we've decided to do it.

Thanks for the info!

giving you an amazing array of possibilities right out of the gate

I make it about 3x10^111 arrangements, though this is an estimate. Tiling problems are apparently NP-hard.

Will these be the same thickness and material as the existing map packs?

Similar thickness if not the same, yes.

Snorter wrote:

Will these be the same thickness and material as the existing map packs?

Similar thickness if not the same, yes.

How thick is that?

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Snorter wrote:

Will these be the same thickness and material as the existing map packs?

Similar thickness if not the same, yes.

How thick is that?

I don't have the exact measurement; it's a thin piece of cardstock with lamination on one side. I believe these will be the same material, laminated on both. Not as thick as a game board.

Hmm, these remind me a lot of the map tiles when 4E did the heavy miniatures combat focus. [/QUOTE

Dungeons & Dragons recently released the latest version of those, called Dungeon Tiles Reincarnated (official release date isn't for another 3 days, but even up here in Canada they've been in-store for a couple of weeks or more). They include 16 sheets of double-sided tiles, and are expanded versions of their 4E D&D Essentials line, the Dungeon, City, and Wilderness Dungeon Tile Master Sets. From the unboxing pictures I've seen, they've incorporated other 3.X era-sets into each of those boxes, since those 4E boxes had only 10 sheets.
Heck, Jason Engle may very well have been the artist for those original D&D tiles as well, because he was a big artist for 4th Edition, and did a lot of cartography for Dungeon magazine in that era, apparently.

Even though I loved the artwork on the D&D tiles, and thought I'd get a lot of use out of them, really I haven't. They aren't very practical, and layouts - while very customizable - are also very time consuming. Sorting or hunting through them for just what you need, takes a little too long... and it's a pain to have to lay them all out in the middle of a game as well..

These new Pathfinder tiles have three main advantages that I can see. One, they match the existing artwork of recent & current map packs and flip-mats - at least as well as can be expected. Two, the larger size and fixed shape, while it means they are somewhat less versatile, also means it's a lot quicker, easier, and more stable for layout at the table. Third, only Paizo has taken the trouble to make their mats, map packs, and tiles safely useable for wet-, dry-, and non-eraseable (permanent ) markers!

Oh, and a fourth, which should be obvious to anyone on this site - Paizo is still much more responsive and communicative with its customer base. Like Avis Rent-a-Car, their motto as number two is "We Try Harder"...

Really looking forward to this but I'm also slightly worried about the eventuality of using multiple tile sets for Society play.
"This map utilizes a base of the Classic Dungeon flip-mat with tiles 3-8 from the Dungeon Starter Set and tiles 4, 8, and 13 from the Dungeon Perils set."
.. Actually, I take that back, that sounds really cool.

My big concern isn't tiles from multiple sets - it's maps that require multiple copies of the same set to make. I remember LFR maps that required like 3 of the same Dungeon Tiles set to create and how much of a pain in the neck that was. It was one of the major reasons why I decided not to pick up Dungeon Tiles.

This marks the third major iteration of this product, but in this case I think the third time is the charm. This is a greatly improved design which addresses the biggest problem I've always have these tiles: That is, many of them were designed to fit together in only one way. Making them square just adds to the ease-of-use. Well done.

My big concern isn't tiles from multiple sets - it's maps that require multiple copies of the same set to make.

If the sets are large enough, I actually wouldn't mind a little repetition, giving us maybe 2 copies of really useful pieces like a long passage or a 90º turn.

Will the pdf version be arranged so you can print them out double-sided? (Like the pdf pawn products are?)

I'm with Waynemarkstubbs here. Might print these myself if they are suitable for black and white printing. Solves all issue with respect to needing multiple copies of a tile.

Any plans to bring this concept to Starfinder?
It's a system with much higher flexibility so I'd like to see this in Starfinder too.

Fumarole wrote:

Will the Starter Set box be large enough to accommodate an expansion pack or two? Please make this the case as it would make storing and transporting them very convenient.

Probably not (I have not seen a physical prototype yet). Leaving a lot of space in these kinds of cartons can create shipping issues. But each comes in its own snug carton. Of course, the starter sets are larger, so you could grab your tiles from wherever sets you want for your game, put them in the bigger box and head to your game.

How about some sort of card index box that we can put the cards we are currently using, similar to what Paizo has for the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

So, like Wizards with the D&D tile sets back in 3.5/4th. I always liked those, it made maps easier when I didn't have to draw them because they were custom.

Yes. We are working on a couple of solutions for an identification scheme. We want these things to be as easy to use and reuse as possible.

I'll be writing another blog in the next month or so about these products, so I will make sure and outline how we've decided to do it.

Please try and use it in the PFS scenarios. There have been times when it's been quite tricky to work out which map pack cards have been used, and in which orientation, to build the pretty map printed without dividing lines on the page.

Come to think of it, a slightly thicker gridline showing the edges of the tiles on the PFS map would be useful.

So, like Wizards with the D&D tile sets back in 3.5/4th. I always liked those, it made maps easier when I didn't have to draw them because they were custom.

Not just back in the day, the tiles were brought back and re-released for sale today.

I don't have the exact measurement; it's a thin piece of cardstock with lamination on one side. I believe these will be the same material, laminated on both. Not as thick as a game board.

Technical nit: Our erasable map products aren't actually laminated; they're coated with a special varnish.

The More You Know(tm)

I'd like to see Paizo do the digital map routine with this. Program to make our own custom tile maps out of these. Print or display, would be awesome.

I'd love to see Paizo release these tiles in MapForge format. Users could customize the tiles, have infinite copies of any particular tile, flip/mirror the artwork as needed, and then print out their map layout in one piece, at a large-format printing service.

Okay I just thought up a convention that I think would work.

For this set it is:

(Start at the top left of the picture. Left to right top to bottom.)

DSS01 to DSS21

Top is "North" not really but you know what I mean.

You would write DSS01-1 on the North edge of the top left tile. (Yes orientation is pointless for this tile but this is an example.)

The put a 2 on the east edge, a 3 on the south edge and a 4 on the west edge. You don't need the full designation on each edge. You could do it but it would take much longer to write it all out.

Then when you right do the positions you do it like this.

DSS01-1A or DSS01-1B

A is the top side B is the bottom side.

Then you always do the layout from top left, left to right top to bottom.

Always calling out the "North" edge.

Make sense?

I'm probably wasting my time as Paizo most likely already knows what they are doing in regards to this (which I'm sure works well). Anyways, this is how I would do it.

Example:

DSS01NA

What each value means:

DSS is the set designation, "Dungeon Starter Set" in this case.

01, the tile number 00-99 gives 100 numbers with only two digits(or maybe that would be 01-00 depending on how you want to do it.

N = North, this is for orientation useing all 4 poles NESW

A = which side A or B. With respect to side A side B always flip from side to side not top to bottom.

This way you can orient the card against other cards from the same or other sets with a list of card numbers. As well you only need one designation per side and it can be put in the place that least covers up important details etc. as you have 4 places to put the card number on each side with the NESW value. Ideally you would only have to put it on one side but that might be confusing for some people.

Not going to go into depth exactly how this works as I think it's fairly obvious but I can understand how people might get confused without pictures to look at(and my possibly lacking explanation). Further I'm probably wasting my time so I'm only going to give a brief example.

DSS = Dungeon Starter Set
UDS = Underground Dungeon Set (Yes I made this one up for an example of how to mix sets.)

Start left to right top to bottom. R = ROW

R1: DSS05SA, DSS06NA, DSS09EB, UDS10NA, DSS11WB R2: UDS06SB, UDS07WA, DSS18NA R3: DSS02WA, DSS15SB, DSS16WA, UDS20NA

Row Matches: (DSS06NA + UDS06SB) (UDS06SB + DSS15SB) ie: DSS06NA should be directly on top of UDS06SB

Therefore row one has 5 tiles, row two has 3 tiles and row three has 4 tiles.

Yay now we can all trade maps online. :)

You don't need the side designation, since you can roll that into the number. Having 01-00 numbers available is enough for 42 double-sided tiles, i.e. 84 sides. That cuts one character off the code.

I would also not use north-east-west-south because tying them to specific directions is confusing. What if you wanted to have a facet labelled "south" pointing east instead? Better to just label them ABCD and divorce them from any direction implications.

Also, it would probably be better to give the sets numeric codes (Dungeon Starter Set would be 001 instead of DSS) because there might be sets with the same initials.

You don't need the side designation, since you can roll that into the number. Having 01-00 numbers available is enough for 42 double-sided tiles, i.e. 84 sides. That cuts one character off the code.

I would also not use north-east-west-south because tying them to specific directions is confusing. What if you wanted to have a facet labelled "south" pointing east instead? Better to just label them ABCD and divorce them from any direction implications.

Also, it would probably be better to give the sets numeric codes (Dungeon Starter Set would be 001 instead of DSS) because there might be sets with the same initials.

On your first point. That's not a bad idea if all the sets are always the same number of tiles.

Second point, I think I originally had 1234 then I decided that letters would be better. Good point, I think I like ABCD the best.

Third point, I just think that letters are easier to remember. Maybe don't name things with the same initials? :) Easier said than done though. I guess if you separated the numbers with a dash it might not be so bad. Except for the last digit I had letter number letter which is easier to reference than a long series of numbers.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

Thanks for everyone's feedback. We have a numbering scheme for these that will allow you to gain set and tile information at a glance as unobtrusively as possible.

I'll give details about this and other aspects of Flip-Tiles (including some details on the second Starter Set) in an upcoming Paizo blog.