A Few More Answers

Thursday, June 22, 2017

Hi Pathfinders!

Familiars and animal companions are loyal allies that can be of great assistance to your PCs. Adjudicating rules around them can get messy, however, particularly in an organized campaign like the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild. When we updated the Pathfinder Society FAQ a few months ago, we left a big "We'll get back to this" at the top of the question regarding familiars and magic item use. We knew this was going to be a hugely time-consuming project, so we enlisted help from a team of community members: Lau Bannenberg, Steven Lau, Bradley McTeer, and Roger Sidebotham. Thanks to their efforts, we were able to pull together a comprehensive guide to every magic-item related question we could think of for familiars. In addition to updating the list of who can use wands, we tackled the thorny question of magic item slots. Many hours of "Does a floating head have different magic item slots than a floating helmet?" later, we created a magic item slot chart for every familiar that it is possible to acquire in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.

All of this information will appear on the FAQ soon, along with a few other smaller updates. For now, here it is, spoilered for length.

Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?

By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for a list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its feats for Extra Item Slot for free. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items and activate ioun stones.

The following chart specifies the magic item slots that each familiar can unlock. Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes. Celestial, entropic, fiendish, and resolute familiars use the same slots as typical animals of their kind.

All familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word. The following familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen. For more information on these magic item categories, see page 456 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Familiars in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. Most familiars cannot wield weapons in combat. The following familiars can wield weapons: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any), nuglub, pooka, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen.

Some familiars have natural shapeshifting ability. One of the most striking cases is the cassisian familiar, which is listed below in both its humanoid form and its helmet form. Whenever a familiar changes from a form that has access to a magic item slot into a form that does not, the item melded into its body. A melded item provides no benefits. For familiars that can take the shapes of animals, use the standard item categories for that animal listed below.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a familiar. Some of the listed familiars are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.

Arbiter* (eyes, hand, headband, wrist): Arbiter

Auger (eyes, headband): Auger

Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Archaeopteryx, arctic tern, bat, chicken, clockwork familiar, dodo, dove, flying fox, hawk, kakapo, mockingfey, nosoi, osprey, owl, parrot, peacock, penguin, pseudowyvern, ptarmigan, puffin, raven, rhamphorhynchus, snail kite, snowy owl, thrush, toucan

Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, right, shoulders): Compsognathus, petrifern, wallaby

Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Brownie, cassisan (Small humanoid form), coral capuchin, faerie dragon, homunculus, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), monkey, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, xiao, zhyen

Cassisian (headband): Cassisian (helmet form)

Doru (eyes, head, headband): Doru

None (no item slots): Eyeball, harbinger, paracletus, wysp

Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Popoto dolphin, pufferfish, seal

Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel

Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Goat, pig

Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Snapping turtle, toad, turtle

Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Dwarf caiman, lizard, marine iguana, tuatara

Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): cacodaemon, leopard slug, mamiwa, nehushtan, nycar, pipefox, raktavarna, sea krait, viper, voidworm

Verminous (belt, eyes): Blue-ringed octopus, clockwork spy, elemental (any type), giant flea, giant isopod, greensting scorpion, house centipede, katroome, king crab, octopus (young template), scarlet spider, stirge, trilobite, typhilipede

After finishing this entry, we decided to update the animal companion magic item slot chart from Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive to include every possible animal, plant, or vermin companion.

Can my animal companion, plant companion, or vermin companion wield weapons? Can it wear or use magic items?

An animal companion has access to the armor and neck magic item slots automatically, as long as its body shape is eligible for these slots. They can also unlock additional magic item slots that their shape allows. See below for a list of which body slots each companion is eligible to unlock. Plant and vermin companions do not gain automatic magic items slots. All three kinds of companions may carry slotless magic items.

To unlock an additional magic item slot, the animal, plant, or vermin must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, companions of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped companions.

Animal, plant, and vermin companions in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. No animal, plant, or vermin companions can wield weapons or activate magic items, with the exception of the imp granted by the diabolist prestige class, which uses the rules for an imp familiar (See "Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?"). Specifically, they cannot use spell trigger, spell completion, command word, or use-activated magic items (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 458). An animal companion with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher may use ioun stones.

Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) in the table below denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a companion. Some of the listed companions are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.

Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Axe beak, blackwisp egret, dimorphodon, dire bat, eagle, giant raven, giant vulture, hawk, impaler shrike, moa, owl, pteranodon, quetzalcoatlus, roc, trumpeter swan, whisperfall vulture, yolubilis heron

Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, right, shoulders, wrist): Ceratosaurus, chalicotherium, deinonychus, gigantosaurus, kangaroo, pachycephalosaurus, theriznosaurus, troodon, tyrannosaurus, velociraptor

Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Ape, baboon, devil monkey

Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Blue whale, dolphin, dunkleosteus, manta ray, narwhal, orca, plesiosaurus, seahorse, shark, stingray, tylosaurus, walrus

Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Badger, bear, cheetah, digmaul, dire rat, dog, giant weasel, goblin dog, hyena, leopard, lion, panda, thylacine, tiger, wolf, wolverine

Quadruped/Hexapod [feet] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Baluchitherium, camel, deinotherium, elasmotherium, embolotherium, elephant, giant ant, giant mantis, giant wasp, hippopotamus, mastodon, megatherium, pygmy hippopotamus, rhinoceros, triceratops, uintatherium

Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Antelope, aurochs, boar, bristle boar, elk, giraffe, horse, llama, megaloceros, mindspin ram, moose, pony, ram, shissah, skittergoat, stag, styracosaurus, yzobu

Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Elasmosaurus, giant frog, giant snapping turtle, glyptodon, tortoise

Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Alligator, crocodile, amargasaurus, ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus, dimetrodon, kaprosuchus, kentrosaurus, stegosaurus, giant chameleon, giant gecko, megalania, monitor lizard

Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): Basilosaurus, constrictor snake, electric eel, gar, giant leech, giant moray eel, giant slug, titanoboa, viper

Plant/Verminous (belt, eyes): Cameroceras, carnivorous flower, crawling vine, giant beetle, giant centipede, giant crab, giant scorpion, giant spider, octopus, puffball, sapling treant, squid

Do you have any questions about familiars, animal companions, or other companion creatures that we haven't answered yet in the FAQ? Let us know in the comments below.

Linda Zayas-Palmer
Developer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Society
301 to 350 of 421 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>
***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do we think the familiar might be delivering the touch by rubbing its nose or belly on something?

* Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka Suede

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think Chia's questions do bring up a concern of mine as well. The restrictions on it don't really make sense considering it can speak, has hands, and a high intelligence.

Considering it's from the Occult book, I had rather assumed the homonculus was meant to emulate the spiritualist's phantom as generally when an archtype is released in a book like that it's taking cues from the main classes. And a phantom can wear any slot it wants (Just not at the same time as its master). It's a bit of a weird switch at this point that makes it significantly weaker than the other standard pet options.

So does it gain all the benefits of an AC, then? Can I multiclass with it into other classes with Animal Companions to continue gaining levels on the homonculus?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Suede wrote:
Considering it's from the Occult book, I had rather assumed the homonculus was meant to emulate the spiritualist's phantom as generally when an archtype is released in a book like that it's taking cues from the main classes. And a phantom can wear any slot it wants (Just not at the same time as its master). It's a bit of a weird switch at this point that makes it significantly weaker than the other standard pet options.

Eh, what? I wouldn't say it's supposed to emulate anything from the main classes, while there are archetypes that do so that come out in the same book and after I wouldn't say it's mandatory for any of the archetypes in the original book to have to do so when looking at all of them, just that they follow a general theme of the book. Seeing as how Homunculi and Phantoms have nothing in common aside from being a Companion class feature I wouldn't really base how one is supposed to act after the other.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Phantoms are more like eidolons with less punching power but more slipperiness. They don't have anything in common with homonculi.

* Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka Suede

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem is Homonculus don't really have anything in common with anything. And yeah, in my experience archtypes for classes found in the more recent books tend to just borrow mechanics from the base classes of that book. So I ran with the assumption the homonculus could use items as normal, except it has no proficiency with armor as called out in its stats.

The change I'm okay with, I need to sell back a ring is all on mine. But it does remove its ability to stay competitive with other pets that are cheaper to maintain and keep alive, and often provide more in combat. So I'm just wondering if they classify as ACs in general now, and not just for items. Because that would open up some extra options for it with feats or multi-classing/prestige classing.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have to say I'm seriously unimpressed by the idea that anything a class feature designates as a mount has to spend a feat to wear a saddle or horse shoes. I can appreciate why that would make sense for a standard companion, but cavaliers suck so much already that this borders on cruelty.

*** Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta

Tinywytch wrote:
I have to say I'm seriously unimpressed by the idea that anything a class feature designates as a mount has to spend a feat to wear a saddle or horse shoes. I can appreciate why that would make sense for a standard companion, but cavaliers suck so much already that this borders on cruelty.

Did we ever get clarification about whether this refers to all saddles and horseshoes, or only magical ones?

Scarab Sages *****

Abraham Z. wrote:
Tinywytch wrote:
I have to say I'm seriously unimpressed by the idea that anything a class feature designates as a mount has to spend a feat to wear a saddle or horse shoes. I can appreciate why that would make sense for a standard companion, but cavaliers suck so much already that this borders on cruelty.
Did we ever get clarification about whether this refers to all saddles and horseshoes, or only magical ones?

Yes we did. I believe its upthread. But Linda came in and clarified that as long as the animal has the armor or belt/chest [saddle] slot available, that the animal can use mundane versions without needing to take the extra item slot feat.

EDIT:

LINK


Chia Red wrote:

I also have some questions about Promethean's Homunculus companion.

According to this newest FAQ, it is included in animal (plant or vermin) companion and it can't use or even wear most magic equipment.

According to the FAQ, the Promethean Alchemist's homunculus companion falls under Biped [hands], not Plant/Verminous. Additionally, unlike animal/plant/vermin companions, they can activate magic items, which may well include wands.

Dark Archive *

Red Metal wrote:
According to the FAQ, the Promethean Alchemist's homunculus companion falls under Biped [hands], not Plant/Verminous. Additionally, unlike animal/plant/vermin companions, they can activate magic items, which may well include wands.

Yes it's falls under Biped [hands], but the list is for animal/plant/vermin, which count as "animal companion".

Actually "animal companion" is based on Druids' Nature Bond class feature and other similar class features with description like "functions as a druid's animal companion" or "use his xxx level as her effective druid level". This kind of companion can grow with the table as Nature Bond class feature descripted, benefit from feats for "animal companion" and limited by this FAQ, that's also why "animal companion" is different from familiar, phantom and others.

What I really want to say is there is no reason to conclude homunculus in this kind of "animal companion". Because this class feature provides a new table for growing just like phantom or eidolon and doesn't mention about anything of druid.

Let's see how this happened.

1. The FAQ about if familiars can active a magic item like a wand was going to be fixed.

>>>2. The FAQ was updated as this blog article informed. And there comes out a new FAQ tells that animal/plant/vermin companion can't active a magic item or use a weapon. In the new FAQ, the imp companion (also uses the rule of animal companion as Druid's class feature) from diabolist prestige class is considered as a expection that can active a magic item but can not use a weapon.

>>>3. Some one asked in this threads if homunculus can be seen as a animal companion for benefit from feats designed for animal companion.

>>>4. Staffs read this reply and added "and the promethean alchemist’s homunculus, which gains weapon proficiency as described in the archetype" to the FAQ. Then homunculus seems become a animal/plant/vermin companion under Biped [hands] kind, though it is nothing in common with "animal companion".

The 4th step makes no sense and causes more question (see what Suede has written), that's what we doubt for.


Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Pseudodragons are a bit fuzzy on whether they can actually talk, or only chirp and use telepathy; and they don't have SLAs.

They specifically have Draconic in their statblock in the language section. So pretty sure they can speak, read, and understand spoken draconic. It's not modified like other statblocks that call out if they can understand but not speak.

Absence of SLAs doesn't show they can't talk. If they had SLA's they would definitively talk. A implies B vs Not A Ambiguous B.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Exton Land wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Pseudodragons are a bit fuzzy on whether they can actually talk, or only chirp and use telepathy; and they don't have SLAs.

They specifically have Draconic in their statblock in the language section. So pretty sure they can speak, read, and understand spoken draconic. It's not modified like other statblocks that call out if they can understand but not speak.

Absence of SLAs doesn't show they can't talk. If they had SLA's they would definitively talk. A implies B vs Not A Ambiguous B.

Why would they talk if they had spell-like abilities? Those lack verbal or somatic components...is there a ruling I'm missing?

Scarab Sages *****

Knowing a language does not mean they are capable of speaking.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Exton Land wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Pseudodragons are a bit fuzzy on whether they can actually talk, or only chirp and use telepathy; and they don't have SLAs.
They specifically have Draconic in their statblock in the language section. So pretty sure they can speak, read, and understand spoken draconic. It's not modified like other statblocks that call out if they can understand but not speak.

That's true, but the description of the creature is what creates the doubt:

Pseudodragon wrote:
Pseudodragons are tiny cousins of true dragons, and are playful but shy. They often only vocalize in chirps, hisses, growls, and purrs, but can communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature. If approached peacefully and offered food, they are usually willing to share information about what they've seen in their territory, but threats or violence make them flee.

That paragraph makes me uncertain if they can really talk.

Exton Land wrote:
Absence of SLAs doesn't show they can't talk. If they had SLA's they would definitively talk. A implies B vs Not A Ambiguous B.

SLAs and talking are entirely separate things. But all the old set of wand-capable familiars also had SLAs. When outlining different possible rules for PFS leadership we mentioned the possibility of making "has SLA" a requirement for using wands, and it seems they did so.

Shadow Lodge **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tallow wrote:
Knowing a language does not mean they are capable of speaking.

In general, yes, it does. A creature can speak any language listed in its stat block unless the section has the "(cannot speak)" clause after it, eg Shambling Mound, Vegepygmy. This holds even for a creature that has telepathy along with its languages, eg. Hellcat compared to Pseudodragon.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

After the last few posts it sounds like they can speak Draconic, but only telepathically.

I can understand why that would preclude them from using UMD.

*

Nefreet wrote:

After the last few posts it sounds like they can speak Draconic, but only telepathically.

I can understand why that would preclude them from using UMD.

Telepathy, by default, is not language-dependent - see the universal monster ability.

Also see stuff like the Animate Dream, whose only language is telepathy. If the Pseudodragon's entry was meant to imply speaking Draconic telepathically, what language would the Animate Dream telepathically speak in?

Sovereign Court ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
shaventalz wrote:
If the Pseudodragon's entry was meant to imply speaking Draconic telepathically, what language would the Animate Dream telepathically speak in?

Freudian


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Warwick Cailean wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
If the Pseudodragon's entry was meant to imply speaking Draconic telepathically, what language would the Animate Dream telepathically speak in?
Freudian

Jungian!

Shadow Lodge **

Nefreet wrote:

After the last few posts it sounds like they can speak Draconic, but only telepathically.

I can understand why that would preclude them from using UMD.

Perhaps you might explain the differences in how a hellcat communicates compared to a pseudodragon?

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Absolutely.

It seems my statement earlier is being skewed.

I never claimed telepathy was language-dependent, or that they could only communicate with telepathy using only Draconic.

To the contrary, it seems that if a Pseudodragon wishes to communicate using Draconic, the only way it is capable of delivering such a message is via telepathy.

This has zero impact on how any other creature uses telepathy.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Although I believe I recall a certain Pseudodragon in...

...name of AP spoiled to protect the innocent...:
... Hell's Rebels ...
...that was capable of speech.

So maybe authors aren't being consistent?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The monster entry for the pseudodragon says "They often only vocalize in chirps, hisses, growls, and purrs, but can communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature."

That sentence seems to express a preference not to speak rather than an inability to speak. That sentence also suggests that their racial telepathy overcomes language barriers (since they can otherwise speak only Draconic).

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Like I said, there was doubt about their ability to speak. We weren't certain it could or couldn't.

But I think what did it in was that it didn't have SLAs. All the wand-capable familiars have SLAs.

***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If I polymorph my familiar from a form that has no hands to a form that has hands (e.g. use alter self to turn my pseudodragon into a halfling), does he join the list of familiars that are "able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient" for the duration of the spell?

Liberty's Edge *** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

FiddlersGreen wrote:
If I polymorph my familiar from a form that has no hands to a form that has hands (e.g. use alter self to turn my pseudodragon into a halfling), does he join the list of familiars that are "able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient" for the duration of the spell?

I doubt this would work.

Grand Lodge ****

Grasp and carry, with a familiar's intelligence - I think that's OK. I don't think it contributes at all to wielding, activating, loading or otherwise using the item.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

FiddlersGreen wrote:
If I polymorph my familiar from a form that has no hands to a form that has hands (e.g. use alter self to turn my pseudodragon into a halfling), does he join the list of familiars that are "able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient" for the duration of the spell?

No. Regardless of what behind-the-scenes logic was used to come up with those lists, the current system boils down to "if you were written on the list you can, otherwise you can't".

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

So I'm catching up on the compilation of open questions.

It seems the questions about saddles have been more or less sorted by increasing the number of creature categories with a saddle slot. Observe the FAQ which is farther ahead than the list at the top of this blog.

There are still some issues where which I'm documenting.

My current question is:

Are there still creatures that should be mountable (described as such) that currently can't use saddles?

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Are there still creatures that should be mountable (described as such) that currently can't use saddles?

The First Mosthers fang cavalier rides a snake.

* Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

I think that grippli's ride giant frogs and they can't have saddles.

Scarab Sages *****

Just because a creature can be chosen as a mount, does not automatically mean it should be able to use a saddle.

Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

FWIW there is at least one example of a snake saddle in literature.

Spellsinger wrote:
[the L'borean riding snake] was at least forty feet long, though its immense bulk made it appear shorter. Four saddles were mounted on its back. They were secured not by straps around the belly as with a horse but by a peculiar suction arrangement that held the seats tight to the slick scales.

Though not particularly Pathfinder relevant, that sounds like an exotic saddle to me. :)

* Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

The real question is, "When are exotic saddles used?"
Are they used for creatures that don't have a saddle slot?
Are they used for creatures with a saddle slot and if so, which ones need an exotic saddle and which don't?

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The Giant Centipede is listed as having Belt, but not Belt [saddle].

I realize it can't wear magical saddles, but regular exotic saddles are still kosher, right?

Granted, I've never seen anyone with a Giant Centipede as their Companion, but there is a mid-level Module wear Derro ride Giant Centipedes, so they can certainly be used as mounts.

* Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Nefreet wrote:

The Giant Centipede is listed as having Belt, but not Belt [saddle].

I realize it can't wear magical saddles, but regular exotic saddles are still kosher, right?

That's what is unclear. Currently it seems no cause it says that people without the magical belt [saddle] slot can't wear saddles at all. And exotic saddles are saddles.

Dark Archive ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

So I'm catching up on the compilation of open questions.

It seems the questions about saddles have been more or less sorted by increasing the number of creature categories with a saddle slot. Observe the FAQ which is farther ahead than the list at the top of this blog.

There are still some issues where which I'm documenting.

My current question is:

Are there still creatures that should be mountable (described as such) that currently can't use saddles?

There are a couple of Cavalier Archetypes (old and new) that consider certain animal companions mounts, but those animal companions do not have saddle slots.

Beast Rider: Glyptodon (Quadruped[Squat]), Giant Snapping Turtle (Quadruped [Squat]), Deinonychus (Biped [Claws/Paws]), Velociraptor (Biped [Claws/Paws]), and the Cart Blanche starting lvl 7.
First Mother's Fang: Constrictor Snake (Serpentine)
Vermin Tamer: Giant Beetle (Plant/Verminous), Giant Centipede (Plant/Verminous), Giant Slug (Serpentine), Giant Spider (Plant/Verminous).

That last Archetype also comes with another problem. It grants Light Armor Proficiency if the mount is of proper size. But all of its options (except the Gecko) do not even have an armor slot. So apparently, a Halfing can ride an Armored Slug, I guess?

***** ⦵⦵⦵

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

The Giant Centipede is listed as having Belt, but not Belt [saddle].

I realize it can't wear magical saddles, but regular exotic saddles are still kosher, right?

That's what is unclear. Currently it seems no cause it says that people without the magical belt [saddle] slot can't wear saddles at all. And exotic saddles are saddles.

There is plenty of cause to say that an item who's entire purpose is to go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle can go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle.

* Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

The Giant Centipede is listed as having Belt, but not Belt [saddle].

I realize it can't wear magical saddles, but regular exotic saddles are still kosher, right?

That's what is unclear. Currently it seems no cause it says that people without the magical belt [saddle] slot can't wear saddles at all. And exotic saddles are saddles.
There is plenty of cause to say that an item who's entire purpose is to go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle can go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle.

But it's also easy to say that saddles are just for horses and ponies and that exotic saddles are for your other stranger shapes, like your dinosaurs or bears. And there are some shapes that can't wear a saddle of any kind at all ever.

These creatures can't wear an ordinary horse saddle, so they need an exotic saddle. And some have bodies that can't get any kind of saddle.

a perfectly valid view that works with all the rules.

Hence the plea for clarification.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Beast Rider mounts must have four legs, so the Velociraptor and Deinonychus aren't available anyways.

Dark Archive ****

Nefreet wrote:
Beast Rider mounts must have four legs, so the Velociraptor and Deinonychus aren't available anyways.

Missed that line while I was checking the Beast Rider's list. Why are they even mentioned if it is not allowed to take them anyway?

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

An eloquent addition to the FAQ might be something to the effect of:

"The preceding list of Animal Companion Item Slots represents a "general rule". If you have a class feature that expands on these options (insert examples here), such as granting a Companion free Armor Proficiency, then those class features take precedence".

Or reworded however others think sounds concrete. I just made that up on the fly.

Scarab Sages *****

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

The Giant Centipede is listed as having Belt, but not Belt [saddle].

I realize it can't wear magical saddles, but regular exotic saddles are still kosher, right?

That's what is unclear. Currently it seems no cause it says that people without the magical belt [saddle] slot can't wear saddles at all. And exotic saddles are saddles.
There is plenty of cause to say that an item who's entire purpose is to go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle can go onto a creature that can't wear an ordinary saddle.

But it's also easy to say that saddles are just for horses and ponies and that exotic saddles are for your other stranger shapes, like your dinosaurs or bears. And there are some shapes that can't wear a saddle of any kind at all ever.

These creatures can't wear an ordinary horse saddle, so they need an exotic saddle. And some have bodies that can't get any kind of saddle.

a perfectly valid view that works with all the rules.

Hence the plea for clarification.

Currently, per Linda's clarification to the FAQ, you only can use a mundane saddle without extra item slot feat if you have the chest/belt [saddle] slot. Per the FAQ, you can't take extra item slot feat if the creature doesn't have that slot.

So currently, you cannot have a creature mount that doesn't have a saddle slot wear a mundane saddle. And this is true until Linda clarifies further after Gen Con.

Liberty's Edge **

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

It is my understanding that anything with a belt slot could wear a saddle or a belt in that slot and that the belt [saddle] slot restricted the animal to a saddle only. Is that incorrect?

Scarab Sages *****

Nefreet wrote:

An eloquent addition to the FAQ might be something to the effect of:

"The preceding list of Animal Companion Item Slots represents a "general rule". If you have a class feature that expands on these options (insert examples here), such as granting a Companion free Armor Proficiency, then those class features take precedence".

Or reworded however others think sounds concrete. I just made that up on the fly.

Or you just take "specific" overruling "general" and they get it because the specific (archetype) says they do. But I would not be opposed to having a clause spelling it out in the FAQ to keep arguments from happening.

That being said, nothing is stopping someone from using a mount without a saddle.

Scarab Sages *****

Ietsuna wrote:
It is my understanding that anything with a belt slot could wear a saddle or a belt in that slot and that the belt [saddle] slot restricted the animal to a saddle only. Is that incorrect?

That is incorrect. The chest/belt [saddle] slot restricts a creature in two ways.

1) Those are the only creatures that can wear saddles
2) Those creatures can only wear saddles.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ietsuna wrote:
It is my understanding that anything with a belt slot could wear a saddle or a belt in that slot and that the belt [saddle] slot restricted the animal to a saddle only. Is that incorrect?

Yes and no.

Animal Archive is the original source for these rules and says:

Animal Archive front inside cover wrote:
Available slots followed by either “(saddle)” or “(horseshoes)” denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in the appropriate slots as long as they are either saddles or horseshoes, respectively (for instance, a hoofed quadruped can wear a saddle of the sky-river, but not a belt of dwarvenkind).

So a belt(saddle) slot is more limiting than just a belt slot. In a belt slot you could also wear a saddle.

However, the PFS FAQ has done this differently: in PFS you can only wear a saddle if you have a (saddle) slot.

I'm not sure this is intentional, because in general PFS tries to use printed materials unchanged unless change is actually needed, and I don't think denying the FMF a saddle was an actual goal.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tallow wrote:
Or you just take "specific" overruling "general" and they get it because the specific (archetype) says they do. But I would not be opposed to having a clause spelling it out in the FAQ to keep arguments from happening.

At this point in Pathfinder's (and PFS's) development I feel that more verbose and thorough FAQs, with specific exceptions and examples, are the best answer to limiting confusion and resulting arguments.

This FAQ is a really good step in the right direction, though. Kudos to everyone involved.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

4 people marked this as a favorite.

It might not have been obvious through the haze of panic that followed initial publication. But now that I'm compiling remaining questions, I notice quite a few have already been quietly fixed.

There's still work to be done but it's going in the right direction. I've only got 8 more pages of questions to research.

** Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette aka Poison Dusk

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Are there still creatures that should be mountable (described as such) that currently can't use saddles?

Besides the kangaroo, I fail to see why any of these cannot wear a saddle. They may be bipeds, but they don't stand upright like a man does. And the death of the dinosaur rider trope is killing me. And the Rexy is listed as a choice for Beast Rider Cavaliers, so would be ridicules if they can't ride it without a saddle. I have failed to find anything that makes it not a legal choice in either Additional Resources or Campaign Clarifications.

FAQ wrote:
Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, shoulders, wrist): Ceratosaurus, chalicotherium, deinonychus, gigantosaurus, kangaroo, pachycephalosaurus, theriznosaurus, troodon, tyrannosaurus, velociraptor

301 to 350 of 421 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Paizo Blog: A Few More Answers All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.