A Few More Answers

Thursday, June 22, 2017

Hi Pathfinders!

Familiars and animal companions are loyal allies that can be of great assistance to your PCs. Adjudicating rules around them can get messy, however, particularly in an organized campaign like the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild. When we updated the Pathfinder Society FAQ a few months ago, we left a big "We'll get back to this" at the top of the question regarding familiars and magic item use. We knew this was going to be a hugely time-consuming project, so we enlisted help from a team of community members: Lau Bannenberg, Steven Lau, Bradley McTeer, and Roger Sidebotham. Thanks to their efforts, we were able to pull together a comprehensive guide to every magic-item related question we could think of for familiars. In addition to updating the list of who can use wands, we tackled the thorny question of magic item slots. Many hours of "Does a floating head have different magic item slots than a floating helmet?" later, we created a magic item slot chart for every familiar that it is possible to acquire in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.

All of this information will appear on the FAQ soon, along with a few other smaller updates. For now, here it is, spoilered for length.

Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?

By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for a list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its feats for Extra Item Slot for free. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items and activate ioun stones.

The following chart specifies the magic item slots that each familiar can unlock. Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes. Celestial, entropic, fiendish, and resolute familiars use the same slots as typical animals of their kind.

All familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word. The following familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen. For more information on these magic item categories, see page 456 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Familiars in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. Most familiars cannot wield weapons in combat. The following familiars can wield weapons: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any), nuglub, pooka, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen.

Some familiars have natural shapeshifting ability. One of the most striking cases is the cassisian familiar, which is listed below in both its humanoid form and its helmet form. Whenever a familiar changes from a form that has access to a magic item slot into a form that does not, the item melded into its body. A melded item provides no benefits. For familiars that can take the shapes of animals, use the standard item categories for that animal listed below.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a familiar. Some of the listed familiars are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.

Arbiter* (eyes, hand, headband, wrist): Arbiter

Auger (eyes, headband): Auger

Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Archaeopteryx, arctic tern, bat, chicken, clockwork familiar, dodo, dove, flying fox, hawk, kakapo, mockingfey, nosoi, osprey, owl, parrot, peacock, penguin, pseudowyvern, ptarmigan, puffin, raven, rhamphorhynchus, snail kite, snowy owl, thrush, toucan

Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, right, shoulders): Compsognathus, petrifern, wallaby

Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Brownie, cassisan (Small humanoid form), coral capuchin, faerie dragon, homunculus, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), monkey, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, xiao, zhyen

Cassisian (headband): Cassisian (helmet form)

Doru (eyes, head, headband): Doru

None (no item slots): Eyeball, harbinger, paracletus, wysp

Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Popoto dolphin, pufferfish, seal

Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel

Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Goat, pig

Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Snapping turtle, toad, turtle

Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Dwarf caiman, lizard, marine iguana, tuatara

Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): cacodaemon, leopard slug, mamiwa, nehushtan, nycar, pipefox, raktavarna, sea krait, viper, voidworm

Verminous (belt, eyes): Blue-ringed octopus, clockwork spy, elemental (any type), giant flea, giant isopod, greensting scorpion, house centipede, katroome, king crab, octopus (young template), scarlet spider, stirge, trilobite, typhilipede

After finishing this entry, we decided to update the animal companion magic item slot chart from Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive to include every possible animal, plant, or vermin companion.

Can my animal companion, plant companion, or vermin companion wield weapons? Can it wear or use magic items?

An animal companion has access to the armor and neck magic item slots automatically, as long as its body shape is eligible for these slots. They can also unlock additional magic item slots that their shape allows. See below for a list of which body slots each companion is eligible to unlock. Plant and vermin companions do not gain automatic magic items slots. All three kinds of companions may carry slotless magic items.

To unlock an additional magic item slot, the animal, plant, or vermin must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, companions of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped companions.

Animal, plant, and vermin companions in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. No animal, plant, or vermin companions can wield weapons or activate magic items, with the exception of the imp granted by the diabolist prestige class, which uses the rules for an imp familiar (See "Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?"). Specifically, they cannot use spell trigger, spell completion, command word, or use-activated magic items (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 458). An animal companion with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher may use ioun stones.

Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) in the table below denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a companion. Some of the listed companions are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.

Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Axe beak, blackwisp egret, dimorphodon, dire bat, eagle, giant raven, giant vulture, hawk, impaler shrike, moa, owl, pteranodon, quetzalcoatlus, roc, trumpeter swan, whisperfall vulture, yolubilis heron

Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, right, shoulders, wrist): Ceratosaurus, chalicotherium, deinonychus, gigantosaurus, kangaroo, pachycephalosaurus, theriznosaurus, troodon, tyrannosaurus, velociraptor

Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Ape, baboon, devil monkey

Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Blue whale, dolphin, dunkleosteus, manta ray, narwhal, orca, plesiosaurus, seahorse, shark, stingray, tylosaurus, walrus

Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Badger, bear, cheetah, digmaul, dire rat, dog, giant weasel, goblin dog, hyena, leopard, lion, panda, thylacine, tiger, wolf, wolverine

Quadruped/Hexapod [feet] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Baluchitherium, camel, deinotherium, elasmotherium, embolotherium, elephant, giant ant, giant mantis, giant wasp, hippopotamus, mastodon, megatherium, pygmy hippopotamus, rhinoceros, triceratops, uintatherium

Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Antelope, aurochs, boar, bristle boar, elk, giraffe, horse, llama, megaloceros, mindspin ram, moose, pony, ram, shissah, skittergoat, stag, styracosaurus, yzobu

Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Elasmosaurus, giant frog, giant snapping turtle, glyptodon, tortoise

Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Alligator, crocodile, amargasaurus, ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus, dimetrodon, kaprosuchus, kentrosaurus, stegosaurus, giant chameleon, giant gecko, megalania, monitor lizard

Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): Basilosaurus, constrictor snake, electric eel, gar, giant leech, giant moray eel, giant slug, titanoboa, viper

Plant/Verminous (belt, eyes): Cameroceras, carnivorous flower, crawling vine, giant beetle, giant centipede, giant crab, giant scorpion, giant spider, octopus, puffball, sapling treant, squid

Do you have any questions about familiars, animal companions, or other companion creatures that we haven't answered yet in the FAQ? Let us know in the comments below.

Linda Zayas-Palmer
Developer

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Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

ShadowsOverScotland wrote:
these are the magic item slots (if you are looking for more specific reasons there are a few of the Additional mounts boons that are covered that cannot take a saddle... i.e. Grippli getting Giant Frog mounts)

Sounds like you'll be needing to ride them bareback.

Nothing in the line, "Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes." says anything about magic items or slots, or that mundane saddles and/or exotic saddles aren't part of this.
I can't go against a clear rule statement of the animals being unable to wear saddles.

Just like people thought investigators could use wands cause it was an oversight but it actually was ruled as written, I don't trust what they "clearly" meant or "clearly" implied, written rules win.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
ShadowsOverScotland wrote:
these are the magic item slots (if you are looking for more specific reasons there are a few of the Additional mounts boons that are covered that cannot take a saddle... i.e. Grippli getting Giant Frog mounts)

Sounds like you'll be needing to ride them bareback.

Nothing in the line, "Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes." says anything about magic items or slots, or that mundane saddles and/or exotic saddles aren't part of this.
I can't go against a clear rule statement of the animals being unable to wear saddles.

Just like people thought investigators could use wands cause it was an oversight but it actually was ruled as written, I don't trust what they "clearly" meant or "clearly" implied, written rules win.

Yes, the investigator wands thing was intentional. There are a lot more cases where there have been changes with unintended consequences that were later fixed (or are intended to be fixed... usually when there are major changes to a complex system. See the Season 8 guide for example). Holding off might not be the worst idea.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Thomas Hutchins wrote:


Nothing in the line, "Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes." says anything about magic items or slots, or that mundane saddles and/or exotic saddles aren't part of this.
I can't go against a clear rule statement of the animals being unable to wear saddles.

The entire context of the chart is with regards to magic items. The dire bat for example Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist) doesn't have a saddle slot but

Considered to be the fastest non-magical transport in cavernous underground realms, dire bats are domesticated in captivity to serve as riding animals. Stables that accommodate these massive creatures are only commonly found in cities built in larger underground caverns, owing to the greater space required for training and exercise, though the outriders of some subterranean races fly them almost to the surface. These creatures require exotic saddles to ride.

... are explicitly called out as needing the item you say they can't have.

So either there's a contradiction, somewhere, or the belt slot only matters for magical saddles.

Quote:
Just like people thought investigators could use wands cause it was an oversight but it actually was ruled as written, I don't trust what they "clearly" meant or "clearly" implied, written rules win.

The rules are that persnickity on occasion but not usually.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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andreww wrote:


Edit: Actually, looking through the AR, when did the allosaurus stop being a legal animal companion?

At least 2 years, but no one is sure when. There was a mass extinction of dinosaurs but since they don't have a listing to red out and no one put in "the allosaurus is no longer legal for play" pretty much no one noticed it at the time.

3/5

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Why don't cats get the head slot? Cats can totally wear helmets!

Here
is
the
proof!

=D

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


Nothing in the line, "Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes." says anything about magic items or slots, or that mundane saddles and/or exotic saddles aren't part of this.
I can't go against a clear rule statement of the animals being unable to wear saddles.

The entire context of the chart is with regards to magic items. The dire bat for example Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist) doesn't have a saddle slot but

Considered to be the fastest non-magical transport in cavernous underground realms, dire bats are domesticated in captivity to serve as riding animals. Stables that accommodate these massive creatures are only commonly found in cities built in larger underground caverns, owing to the greater space required for training and exercise, though the outriders of some subterranean races fly them almost to the surface. These creatures require exotic saddles to ride.

... are explicitly called out as needing the item you say they can't have.

So either there's a contradiction, somewhere, or the belt slot only matters for magical saddles.

OR

In PFS play PC's can't ride them. This blog is only a PFS thing, not a game thing. In PFS dire bat's can't wear saddles, but if the author writes it in that one can cause scenario's are allowed to break rules for players.

The fact that most of the blog is talking about magic item slots does nothing about the statement that most animal types can't wear saddles. The fact that in Pathfinder the exotic saddle is expected to be used doesn't change that in PFS they currently can't wear saddles.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Animals in pfs are allowed to wear items specifically made for their use

Exotic saddles are specifically made for critters without saddle slots.

Problem solved.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Animals in pfs are allowed to wear items specifically made for their use

Exotic saddles are specifically made for critters without saddle slots.

Problem solved.

that was true. That seems not to hold true via this blog.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Thomas Hutchins wrote:


that was true. That seems not to hold true via this blog.

How you interpret the blog. Not the same thing.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
If possible the mundane saddle question would be useful. I have a player that has a velociraptor he rides and I currently feel that if he brings it on Thursday I'll have to say his mundane exotic saddle isn't legal on the raptor.
I think until its clarified one way or another, you should err on the side of the player.

It is clarified now. "Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes." There's nothing unclear about that. Velociraptors can't wear saddles since it doesn't have the appropriate annotation. There's nothing to err on or change by the GM.

The question is if it was intended, since it does seem strange. Cause you'd think that was the point of exotic saddles, but rules are rules and exotic saddles seemingly don't really have a place in PFS anymore.

Eh, I don't agree. It's an FAQ on magic item slots. Not on mundane stuff.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I will err on the side of mundane gear remaining unaffected by the blog.

Nearly every Animal Companion of mine has a Training Harness, for example, and I'm pretty sure this blog doesn't disallow that.

Would be nice to know for sure whether Animal Companions have a "slotless" magic item slot, though. I've seen many Companions with Wayfinders hanging on them and always felt a little uneasy about it (though not enough to ever bar anyone from doing it).

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Eastern Eurasia-Africa

Nefreet wrote:

I will err on the side of mundane gear remaining unaffected by the blog.

Nearly every Animal Companion of mine has a Training Harness, for example, and I'm pretty sure this blog doesn't disallow that.

Would be nice to know for sure whether Animal Companions have a "slotless" magic item slot, though. I've seen many Companions with Wayfinders hanging on them and always felt a little uneasy about it (though not enough to ever bar anyone from doing it).

I hope they will bring the PFS rules in line with the PF rules and retract the PFS specific ruling that ioun stones work on animal companions.

Facts About Ioun Stones wrote:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone. They have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures; comatose intelligent creatures and those with significant Intelligence damage or drain cannot use ioun stones.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Auke Teeninga wrote:

I hope they will bring the PFS rules in line with the PF rules and retract the PFS specific ruling that ioun stones work on animal companions.

Facts About Ioun Stones wrote:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone. They have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures; comatose intelligent creatures and those with significant Intelligence damage or drain cannot use ioun stones.

Normal animals are by definition non-intelligent (Int 1-2); any "animal" with more intelligence than that is a magical beast.

Except for animal companions that increase their Intelligence.

So the PFS rules are in accord with the broader rule (must have Int 3+), but not with the list of typical examples.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Eastern Eurasia-Africa

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Auke Teeninga wrote:

I hope they will bring the PFS rules in line with the PF rules and retract the PFS specific ruling that ioun stones work on animal companions.

Facts About Ioun Stones wrote:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone. They have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures; comatose intelligent creatures and those with significant Intelligence damage or drain cannot use ioun stones.

Normal animals are by definition non-intelligent (Int 1-2); any "animal" with more intelligence than that is a magical beast.

Except for animal companions that increase their Intelligence.

So the PFS rules are in accord with the broader rule (must have Int 3+), but not with the list of typical examples.

Ah ok, they included the int 3+.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Auke Teeninga wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Auke Teeninga wrote:

I hope they will bring the PFS rules in line with the PF rules and retract the PFS specific ruling that ioun stones work on animal companions.

Facts About Ioun Stones wrote:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone. They have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures; comatose intelligent creatures and those with significant Intelligence damage or drain cannot use ioun stones.

Normal animals are by definition non-intelligent (Int 1-2); any "animal" with more intelligence than that is a magical beast.

Except for animal companions that increase their Intelligence.

So the PFS rules are in accord with the broader rule (must have Int 3+), but not with the list of typical examples.

Ah ok, they included the int 3+.

I think the original sin was allowing animal companions to reach Int 3 in the first place, because that breaks the "animals are Int 1-2 and therefore not sentient; if they were sentient they wouldn't be animals" principle; then it got not-quite-patched with Monkey See Monkey Do which established that they're still not sentient, so now they break the general rules for what an Int score of 3+ means. And why Linguistics on animals is fubared.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

The definition of animal intelligence was descriptive not prescriptive.

And INT 3 animal companions were specifically allowed right out of the box, it wasn't a new addition and the arguments against it were preposterous.

Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The definition of animal intelligence was descriptive not prescriptive.

And INT 3 animal companions were specifically allowed right out of the box, it wasn't a new addition and the arguments against it were preposterous.

Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

I'm with Lau on this one, but it's been hashed out before, and this probably isn't the place to hash it out again. We have clear PFS rulings to cover the use cases being discussed, in any event.

Grand Lodge 3/5

By this reading, the only flyers you can put a saddle on are flying squirrels, Giant Mantis, and Giant Wasps?

It also seems very weird that [saddle] is a restriction on the slot in one sentence, but the ability to use a saddle at all in the next. I'd really like to see that cleared up, as would my Flying Fox riding Bard.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

I suspect a Goblin Vulture Pilot would like to know the resolution too!

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The definition of animal intelligence was descriptive not prescriptive.

And INT 3 animal companions were specifically allowed right out of the box, it wasn't a new addition and the arguments against it were preposterous.

Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

It's totally allowed in the CRB, I'm not disputing the facts - I'm claiming that that's the original design mistake that most of the arguments derive from.

Animal companions are the only animals that raise their intelligence. The Advanced Simple template doesn't raise Int <= 2, and the Awaken spell specifically turns the now-intelligent animal into a Magical Beast.

Bestiary > creature types > animal > animal type traits wrote:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Lemartes wrote:

Where is the Tripurasura?

Auger got mentioned and they are lawful evil so...

The list does not include familiars that there is currently no way to get in Pathfinder Society.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Jack Brown wrote:

Linda,

I assume that the free retraining had to happen when the character got the familiar, correct?

No, you can go ahead and do the free retraining now if you want.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Illeist wrote:
Seconding the request for wolliped. I've been ruling mine as being a quadruped [hooves], since there isn't a hexapod [hooves], but I'd love an official answer either way.

Let's go with quadruped [hooves].

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Animals in pfs are allowed to wear items specifically made for their use

Exotic saddles are specifically made for critters without saddle slots.

Problem solved.

+1

This seems so obvious to me, I wonder why we are asking about it.


Am I missing something here, or is the elimination of use-activated magic items mean Animal Companions can't use potions?
What if they're given them directly? Put into their water? What about apes?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

You still should be able to full round action the potion down their throat, they never could "use" them ... as a standard action. So I don't think this changed how you give an animal companion a potion?

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

1 OK, so my Roc and Axebeak (with different characters) are not allowed to use magical saddles. But can I equip them with an exotic military saddle? I have always assumed that I can, now I am not so sure...

2 Why can a Giant Wasp have a magical saddle and a Roc not?

My apologies if this has been answered upthread.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Magabeus wrote:
I have always assumed that I can, now I am not so sure...

Still waiting on an official answer but most people seem to be voting yes.

including the artwork

2 Why can a Giant Wasp have a magical saddle and a Roc not?

The Wasp has the belt (saddle) slot from the animal archive, the roc does not.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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James Risner wrote:
You still should be able to full round action the potion down their throat, they never could "use" them ... as a standard action. So I don't think this changed how you give an animal companion a potion?

Wouldn't they need to unconscious to do that? I use potion sponges. Can give the that as a standard.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Gary Bush wrote:
James Risner wrote:
You still should be able to full round action the potion down their throat, they never could "use" them ... as a standard action. So I don't think this changed how you give an animal companion a potion?
Wouldn't they need to unconscious to do that? I use potion sponges. Can give the that as a standard.

There's no rule for how to potion a concious character

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

I've always figured that getting your animal companion to drink a potion was a "push" use of Handle Animal since you have to somehow pour the contents of the vial into its mouth and get it to swallow.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

My dog drinks from our water bottles.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
My dog drinks from our water bottles.

What about your horse, giant lizard, or war-ostrich? I have little experience with non-canine animals, so I'm just guessing, really. :-)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

I've seen video of horses doing it. Hell, there's a video of a village somewhere letting a snake drink water. (Not from the bottle if I remember right, but you get the point.)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"War-ostrich"...

*goes off to draft up a new character*

Silver Crusade

On the other hand, my pet rabbit never learned how to use the bottle hanging in his cage, which is made for rabbits. I gave up on that and gave him a water bowl.

And I actually consider him pretty smart for a rabbit. I've never seen him make the same mistake twice, because he learns from them, which is more than I can say for any other pet I've ever had.

Scarab Sages 4/5

This has come up in the discussion before. Since there is no rule, it's going to come down to GM discretion. Personally, I think it require a push roll, or a full-round action from the person pouring the potion. I would hand wave it outside of combat, though.

The argument against it requiring a roll usually boils down to, "Well then do I have to push my animal to feed it?" That's not a fair comparison. A hungry/thirsty animal will eat or drink whether it's trained or not. Some animals will eat/drink anything put in front of them. Some animals won't.

What's really at question here is whether or not an animal will drink the potion as their standard action in the ~3 seconds that they have to take that action in the middle of combat, when they are potentially being threatened or have hostile enemies nearby. It's not a question of whether or not you can get an animal to drink. It's a question of whether or not you can get an animal to drink the (potentially foul tasting) particular potion that you need them to, in the very small span of time that you need them to, in the middle of combat.

Tricks exist to provide a way to get an animal to do the specific thing you need them to do at the specific time that you need them to do it. There is no trick to make them drink a potion. So (for me) the way to adjudicate that is to default it to a push roll (in combat). Another GM might just handwave it, but then there are a lot of GMs that handwave everything about animal companions.

The alternative is that you hold their mouth open and pour it down their throat as your full-round action for the turn. There's no rule saying you can do that for a conscious character either, so even that is at your GM's discretion.

Liberty's Edge

Why would a Sapling Treant have only eye and belt slot? Without a neck slot it is going to be very difficult to deal with DR. That is a very basic need for any companion.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Azothath

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Bacon flavoured Cure Light Wounds potions are all going to be the rage now... 8^)

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Just to assure people the issue isn't abandoned; I'm working on a compilation of all open questions here for John and Linda to get back to when Gencon is over.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Just to assure people the issue isn't abandoned; I'm working on a compilation of all open questions here for John and Linda to get back to when Gencon is over.

That is awesome, Lau. Thank you!

Hmm

4/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
My dog drinks from our water bottles.

Potions in gerbil water bottles?

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Potions in gerbils.

For our theropod Companions.

Shadow Lodge

This entire thing seems overly complicated and needlessly so, and continues to not follow any form of logic.

Might I suggest something along the following:

Animal Companions, Mounts, and similar options can never raise their Intelligence above 2. Items, spells, and other effects that normally do, such as a Headband of Vast Intelligence are only ever treated as a temporary ability bonus, never increasing the actual Int Ability Score, but giving an appropriate bonus to Int based checks. Any Magic Item, Spell, or similar option that does raise the Animal's Int above 2 also changes the Animal into a Magical Beast, at which point they no longer qualify as an appropriate choice for an Animal Companion, Mount, etc. . .

Animal Companions may wear Magic Items that occupy every Item Slot that a typical humanoid frame would be able to, although these might need to be slightly altered, (for instance a Ring being worn as an ear ring on an animal that has no hands). They occupy the same Item Slot, and have the same limitations as the number of Item Slots an individual may have. They may not benefit from Slotless Items, normally, although an Ioun Stone will hover around their head, they otherwise do not benefit from them. Animal Companions may hold weapons, but do not "wield them". They may be used as Improvised Weapons, assuming the Animal Companion has a means to hold them, but the Animal Companion does not threaten with these weapons, nor will they receive any bonuses for "wielding" them.

Animal Companions may only hold one item at a time, (in paws, mouth, tail, etc. . .), but cannot use spell trigger, spell completion, command word, or use-activated magic items. An exception is that an Animal Companion may use a Potion offered to it. Magic (and Mundane) Items specifically designed for "pets", such as Saddles and Horse Shoes may be used without taking the Extra Body Slot Feat.

The Paladin's Divine Bond: Mount follows all of the rules for an Animal Companion above, except that it is an exception in that it may have an Intelligence Score above 2. In this respect, treat it as a Familiar below, (allowing it to possibly gain permanent Intelligence bonuses, the ability to understand languages, following it's own rules for becoming a Magical Beast). Any Magical gear carried by the Paladin's Divine Mount may either remain with the Divine Mount and will also come with the Mount when Summoned, but will be left behind if the Mount dies.

---
Eidolons, Familiars, Phantoms, and similar options may have an Intelligence score higher than 2, and may benefit from options that can raise the Intelligence score higher, such as a Headband of Vast Intelligence similar to a typical humanoid character. It is a Temporary Ability Bonus during the first 24 hours, that then becomes a permanent bonus thereafter, and does actually raise the Ability Score as normal, potentially granting additional Skill Points, the capacity to speak languages (beyond innate abilities of the Familiar, such as the Raven Familiar or an Improved Familiar).

Familiars and Eidolons may hold weapons (or similar items such as wands, scrolls, potions), if appropriate, but may only hold one item at a time. They may become proficient with a Weapon through Feats, (or some Improved Familiars may already be, or the Weapon Training Evolutions). If a Familiar or Eidolon is Proficient with a Weapon, they may both hold and "wield" it, otherwise they simply treat it as an Improvised Weapon, and do not receive any benefits for simply holding the weapon. Eidolons with Weapon Training and Familiars that are Proficient with appropriate weapons may use two weapons, but are otherwise restricted to holding one item at a time, (so could wield two daggers, or a dagger and a wand, but would not be able to hold two wands, or a wand and a scroll). Phantoms may not hold weapons, (including scrolls, wands, etc...)

Familiars do not have any Magic Item Slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for a list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a Familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its feats for Extra Item Slot for free. Familiars may also carry Slotless magic items and activate Ioun Stones.

Eidolons may the same Item Slots that a typical Humanoid character does and do not require taking a Feat to use them, with the exception of the Armor Slot. In order to use Magical Armors, they do require Proficiency.

Familiars may activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word. The following familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen. Magic (and Mundane) Items specifically designed for "pets", such as Saddles and Horse Shoes may be used without taking the Extra Body Slot Feat.

Item Slots:
* Arbiter* (eyes, hand, headband, wrist): Arbiter
* Auger (eyes, headband): Auger
* Avian* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Archaeopteryx, arctic tern, bat, chicken, clockwork familiar, dodo, dove, flying fox, hawk, kakapo, mockingfey, nosoi, osprey, owl, parrot, peacock, penguin, pseudowyvern, ptarmigan, puffin, raven, rhamphorhynchus, snail kite, snowy owl, thrush, toucan
* Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, right, shoulders): Compsognathus, petrifern, wallaby
* Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Brownie, cassisan (Small humanoid form), coral capuchin, faerie dragon, homunculus, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), monkey, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, xiao, zhyen
* Cassisian (headband): Cassisian (helmet form)
* Doru (eyes, head, headband): Doru
* None (no item slots): Eyeball, harbinger, paracletus, wysp
* Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Popoto dolphin, pufferfish, seal
* Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel
* Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Goat, pig
* Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Snapping turtle, toad, turtle
* Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Dwarf caiman, lizard, marine iguana, tuatara
* Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): cacodaemon, leopard slug, mamiwa, nehushtan, nycar, pipefox, raktavarna, sea krait, viper, voidworm
* Verminous (belt, eyes): Blue-ringed octopus, clockwork spy, elemental (any type), giant flea, giant isopod, greensting scorpion, house centipede, katroome, king crab, octopus (young template), scarlet spider, stirge, trilobite, typhilipede

Shadow Lodge

Can an Animal Companion, (or Vermin/Plant) or Mount increase their Intelligence Score?
No. Things that normally do act as a Temporary Bonus only. Options that do otherwise increase the Int Score change the type to a Magical Beast, and they no longer qualify for an Animal Companion. Creatures with an Intelligence Score of 3 or higher may understand one of more languages. Those with an Intelligence Score of 1 or 2 may not. They may not put any Ranks into Linguistics. Being able to understand a language does not give the ability to speak it. There is no such thing as the "No Animal Left Behind" School Program. That is to say, there is no such thing as an Animal with 18 Int still having an "animal's" mental capacity.

Can a Eidolon, Familiar, Improved Familiar, Divine Bond Mount, or Phantom Increase their Intelligence Score?
Yes, and it functions the same as it would for any other character, possibly granting extra Skill Points, the ability to understand (but usually not speak) Languages, and the ability to think and act beyond "animal level" instincts and behavior.

What Items and Gear can my Animal Companion, (or Vermin/Plant), Divine Bond Mount, or Mount use?
Animal Companions and Mounts may use any Magical or Mundane Items that utilize Item Slots, and have access to all Items Slots just like a typical Humanoid Creature would, (one Chest Slot, two Rings, etc. . .). They may hold, but not wield a single weapon (or item such as a scroll, wand, or potion), if they have an appropriate method to do so (a mouth, paws, a tail), and are physically able to lift and carry that object. They may not activate wands, use scrolls, and are not considered to be wielding a weapon when doing so. They may utilize Potions that are offered to them.

The Divine Bond Mount, because it is intelligent, may draw and use Potions itself, if it has a way to hold them, such as a saddle bag, bandolier.

What Items and Gear can my Eidolon, Familiar, Improved Familiar, or Phantom use?
This is a bit tricky, because different ones use slightly different rules.
* Familiars, (including Improved Familiars) may hold one weapon or item. Similarly Eidolons may as well. Unless they are proficient, they are not considered to be wielding a weapon, though. So, for instance, they could hold a +1 Defending Dagger, but unless they have Simple (or Dagger) Proficiency, or for Eidolons the Simple Weapon Training Evolution, they would both consider that Dagger to be an Improvised Weapon, and would not be able to utilize the Defending Property.

* Phantoms may not wield weapons, (nor scrolls, wands, or potions).

* Familiars (and Improved Familiars) do not have any Item Slots, but may open them up by taking the Extra Item Slot Feat. When a Familiar is first acquired, they may trade one of their normal Feats for Extra Item Slot. (Look at the list above for which Item Slots are opened up with the Feat)

* Familiars, but not Improved Familiars may also utilize both Magical and Non-Magical Items specifically designed for animals, such as Horse Shoes or Saddles, even if they do not have those Item Slots. Improved Familiars may naturally have Armor Proficiency, and if so they may also wear Magical Armor (or Barding).

* Familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word, (Raven Familiars may). The following Familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

2 people marked this as a favorite.

DM Beckett, that's no longer plugging a few holes in the rules, but completely redesigning them. Which is generally not desired in PFS.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
DM Beckett, that's no longer plugging a few holes in the rules, but completely redesigning them. Which is generally not desired in PFS.

Agreed. While PFS certainly can make a few adjustments to some rules to work better within the organized play environment, complete rewriting of a rules set should not happen.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

DM Beckett, there's something crucial that's lacking in your proposal.
The line that states that Animal Companions may take all feats they can physically qualify for once they get 3+ int.

I want to keep dragon style on my charging mount, which your proposal would make impossible, as neither improved unarmed attack and dragon style are on the list of animal feats in the animal companion paragraph.

Shadow Lodge

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
DM Beckett, that's no longer plugging a few holes in the rules, but completely redesigning them. Which is generally not desired in PFS.
Tallow wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
DM Beckett, that's no longer plugging a few holes in the rules, but completely redesigning them. Which is generally not desired in PFS.
Agreed. While PFS certainly can make a few adjustments to some rules to work better within the organized play environment, complete rewriting of a rules set should not happen.

Don't see why not. The intent is to make them logical, simplified, and unscrew all of the various issues caused by prior PFS rulings.

:P

This is really one of those areas that continuous band aids do not help, it's honestly best to just rip them all out and start over from the beginning, with very straight forward answers on what can and can not be done.

Of course, just my opinion, but this is what, like the forth or fifth attempt at explaining and fixing this topic?

Scarab Sages 5/5

DM Beckett wrote:

Don't see why not. The intent is to make them logical, simplified, and unscrew all of the various issues caused by prior PFS rulings.

:P

This is really one of those areas that continuous band aids do not help, it's honestly best to just rip them all out and start over from the beginning, with very straight forward answers on what can and can not be done.

Of course, just my opinion, but this is what, like the forth or fifth attempt at explaining and fixing this topic?

I think you are missing that these aren't just PFS rulings.

The allowing Int 3+ and Monkey-See, Monkey-Do blog post are Pathfinder RPG rulings.

Animal Archive is Pathfinder RPG material.

All PFS did is grab those Pathfinder RPG things, and said, "They work in PFS too. Except the item slot thing is slightly more restricted."

But if you completely remove the ability to go to Int 3+, then you remove the ability of animals to take any feat they qualify for other than the specific feats listed under animal companion.

Unless you want to add yet another house rule to your completely new rules set.

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