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I wonder if it is intended that animal companions can no longer take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack?I'm on my phone so this I can't easily quote the relevant text, but the FAQ about an illegal choice in a list still isn't legal implies that natural combat style rangers can't take improved natural attack. Is that intended?claud,
as i'm reading that (admitedly while shoveling out of the snowpocalypse and enough crown royal to safely store my dice collection) it is allowed by another source, so it's legal, so it's not illegal, so it can be granted by a source.
Although.. yeah that could use some clarification.
If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.
As stated here in this ruling (which is overriding the Additional Resources text), Improved Natural Weapon (i assume is the feat in question), is part of a list of menu choices, therefore it is not legal.
Oh Gozreh that's even worse...
I wonder what choices this addition was meant to negate as so far it looks like it's just cutting out options that have been legal. (I know there have been things in the past, but those have usually been swapped out in the Additional Resources doc)
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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I wonder if it is intended that animal companions can no longer take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack?I'm on my phone so this I can't easily quote the relevant text, but the FAQ about an illegal choice in a list still isn't legal implies that natural combat style rangers can't take improved natural attack. Is that intended?claud,
as i'm reading that (admitedly while shoveling out of the snowpocalypse and enough crown royal to safely store my dice collection) it is allowed by another source, so it's legal, so it's not illegal, so it can be granted by a source.
Although.. yeah that could use some clarification.
If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.
As stated here in this ruling (which is overriding the Additional Resources text), Improved Natural Weapon (i assume is the feat in question), is part of a list of menu choices, therefore it is not legal.
Oh Gozreh that's even worse...
I wonder what choices this addition was meant to negate as so far it looks like it's just cutting out options that have been legal. (I know there have been things in the past, but those have usually been swapped out in the Additional Resources doc)
Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.
This addition was clearly meant to address Player Companion lines that add monk archetypes or similar that grant feats published in the same Player Companion as bonus feat options. If one feat in a list isn't legal per Additional Resources, that feat isn't legal.
Rangers and animal companions are fine. The Core Rulebook defines what feats are appropriate for animals. The Bestiary entry on AR says so.
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I wonder if it is intended that animal companions can no longer take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack?I'm on my phone so this I can't easily quote the relevant text, but the FAQ about an illegal choice in a list still isn't legal implies that natural combat style rangers can't take improved natural attack. Is that intended?claud,
as i'm reading that (admitedly while shoveling out of the snowpocalypse and enough crown royal to safely store my dice collection) it is allowed by another source, so it's legal, so it's not illegal, so it can be granted by a source.
Although.. yeah that could use some clarification.
If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.
As stated here in this ruling (which is overriding the Additional Resources text), Improved Natural Weapon (i assume is the feat in question), is part of a list of menu choices, therefore it is not legal.
Oh Gozreh that's even worse...
I wonder what choices this addition was meant to negate as so far it looks like it's just cutting out options that have been legal. (I know there have been things in the past, but those have usually been swapped out in the Additional Resources doc)
Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted...
And if you read this ruling, it overrides the AR page, because the Ranger LIST of feats is MENU contain both legal and illegal feats. This ruling states that because it meets that criteria, the illegal feats stay illegal.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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And if you read this ruling, it overrides the AR page, because the Ranger LIST of feats is MENU contain both legal and illegal feats. This ruling states that because it meets that criteria, the illegal feats stay illegal.Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.
No, it really doesn't. The ranger list is a menu that contains only legal feats.
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And if you read this ruling, it overrides the AR page, because the Ranger LIST of feats is MENU contain both legal and illegal feats. This ruling states that because it meets that criteria, the illegal feats stay illegal.Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.No, it really doesn't. The ranger list is a menu that contains only legal feats.
You just said "Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack"
That menu of options contains a feat that is stated on the AR as not legal....
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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And if you read this ruling, it overrides the AR page, because the Ranger LIST of feats is MENU contain both legal and illegal feats. This ruling states that because it meets that criteria, the illegal feats stay illegal.Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.No, it really doesn't. The ranger list is a menu that contains only legal feats.
You just said "Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack"
That menu of options contains a feat that is stated on the AR as not legal....
Where does the AR say that? Can you provide a quote?
Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source;
Improved Natural Attack on the Ranger list is specifically granted by the APG. The Bestiary provides the exception to the FAQ. IF the ranger list included an illegal feat from the Advanced Class Guide, which does not have this exception, you would be correct.
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And if you read this ruling, it overrides the AR page, because the Ranger LIST of feats is MENU contain both legal and illegal feats. This ruling states that because it meets that criteria, the illegal feats stay illegal.Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.No, it really doesn't. The ranger list is a menu that contains only legal feats.
You just said "Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack"
That menu of options contains a feat that is stated on the AR as not legal....
Where does the AR say that? Can you provide a quote?
** spoiler omitted **
And the only thing that does is a list of options. So per the new FAQ, because it is contained in a list of legal options, the illegal item in the list remains illegal.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.I see you are ignoring the language here bolded to provide context:
I took an archetype or other ability or feature that gives me access to features that are not legal as per Additional Resources. What happens?
If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.This specially calls out "i have something that gives me access to a feat that's not normally legal"... it says "is it part of a list of feats where 1 of them is legal? if so , than it is not legal now."
The bolded portion of the FAQ says that being included in a legal menu does not make an illegal option legal.
The Additional Resources says that Bestiary feats become legal when they are included on a legal menu.
The Bestiary entries on the AR are an exception to the FAQ. It specifically calls out as legal any Bestiary feats included on such menus. The FAQ applies to every other book published by Paizo.
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Stop freaking out. The Bestiary provides its own exception to this FAQ.
Step 1: look at ranger style list, see Improved Natural Attack
Step 2: look at bestiary on AR, see only legal if specifically granted by class.
Step 3: look at FAQ, Improved Natural Attack is legal because it is granted by Additional Resources.I see you are ignoring the language here bolded to provide context:
I took an archetype or other ability or feature that gives me access to features that are not legal as per Additional Resources. What happens?
If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.This specially calls out "i have something that gives me access to a feat that's not normally legal"... it says "is it part of a list of feats where 1 of them is legal? if so , than it is not legal now."
The bolded portion of the FAQ says that being included in a legal menu does not make an illegal option legal.
The Additional Resources says that Bestiary feats become legal when they are included on a legal menu.
The Bestiary entry on the AR is an exception to the FAQ. It specifically calls out as legal any Bestiary feats included on such menus. The FAQ applies to every other book published by Paizo.
And the new ruling calls out that normally that works, however, the "however" statement overrules that. you can not pick and choose which part of a statement to apply. it either needs revision or clarification.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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And the new ruling calls out that normally that works, however, the "however" statement overrules that. you can not pick and choose which part of a statement to apply. it either needs revision or clarification.
The FAQ in question is I took an archetype or other ability or feature that gives me access to features that are not legal as per Additional Resources. What happens?
This whole question is not applicable to the Bestiary feats because they legal per Additional Resources. I'm not picking and choosing what to apply, I am following directions.
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And the new ruling calls out that normally that works, however, the "however" statement overrules that. you can not pick and choose which part of a statement to apply. it either needs revision or clarification.The FAQ in question is I took an archetype or other ability or feature that gives me access to features that are not legal as per Additional Resources. What happens?
This whole question is not applicable to the Bestiary feats because they legal per Additional Resources. I'm not picking and choosing what to apply, I am following directions.
Per the AR - Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source;
The fact is, that the feat IS illegal. It is illegal for all characters with an exception. That exception is clarified in this ruling.
So yes Improved Natural Attack is illegal per the AR. Rangers COULD circumvent that by having a feature that gives me access to features that are not legal as per Additional Resources which is the same exemption in the bestiary. Therefore by the rest of the ruling, as currently written, it stays illegal.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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For some context, check out this thread asking whether telekineticists should be able to get aether elementals as Improved Familiars.
Telekineticists with Greater Elemental Whispers have a menu of either an aether wysp or an aether elemental. Wysps are legal options for a familiar per their Bestiary entry on AR, but aether elementals are not.
That Greater Elemental Whispers is a legal character option does not make aether elementals a legal choice of familiar.
The FAQ does not change how Bestiary feats have worked. It makes clear these kinds of situations.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.
The intention of this FAQ is to ensure that when a new sorcerer bloodline pops up, for example, granting access to a banned feat on the bonus feat list, it's not suddenly opening up a problematic option the team restricted earlier—sometimes in that same book. The intention's not to restrict the modest number of Bestiary feats that play into several natural weapon archetypes and other character options (like the natural weapon ranger fighting style). It's likely we'll need to add such a clarification that Bestiary feats (except Craft Construct) made available by special character options are legal under that circumstance—either to the FAQ or to the Additional Resources page.
This is the fun of adding several dozen updates to the FAQ all at once. There might be some corner cases that were entirely mainstream and legal that now appear to not be legal based on the new wording. Just ask, and give us enough time to get back to the office, confirm our understanding with each other, and assess whether there needs to be a change before assuming All Is Lost.
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If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.The intention of this FAQ is to ensure that when a new sorcerer bloodline pops up, for example, granting access to a banned feat on the bonus feat list, it's not suddenly opening up a problematic option the team restricted earlier—sometimes in that same book. The intention's not to restrict the modest number of Bestiary feats that play into several natural weapon archetypes and other character options (like the natural weapon ranger fighting style). It's likely we'll need to add such a clarification that Bestiary feats (except Craft Construct) made available by special character options are legal under that circumstance—either to the FAQ or to the Additional Resources page.
This is the fun of adding several dozen updates to the FAQ all at once. There might be some corner cases that were entirely mainstream and legal that now appear to not be legal based on the new wording. Just ask, and give us enough time to get back to the office, confirm our understanding with each other, and assess whether there needs to be a change before assuming All Is Lost.
John, thanks for the reply! It's good to hear!
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If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.The intention of this FAQ is to ensure that when a new sorcerer bloodline pops up, for example, granting access to a banned feat on the bonus feat list, it's not suddenly opening up a problematic option the team restricted earlier—sometimes in that same book. The intention's not to restrict the modest number of Bestiary feats that play into several natural weapon archetypes and other character options (like the natural weapon ranger fighting style). It's likely we'll need to add such a clarification that Bestiary feats (except Craft Construct) made available by special character options are legal under that circumstance—either to the FAQ or to the Additional Resources page.
This is the fun of adding several dozen updates to the FAQ all at once. There might be some corner cases that were entirely mainstream and legal that now appear to not be legal based on the new wording. Just ask, and give us enough time to get back to the office, confirm our understanding with each other, and assess whether there needs to be a change before assuming All Is Lost.
That's good, I figured that wasn't the intention, but wanted attention brought to it.
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Just ask, and give us enough time to get back to the office, confirm our understanding with each other, and assess whether there needs to be a change before assuming All Is Lost.You are NEVER going to make it in politics with that attitude...
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Looking for some clarification on snake companions. Can they wear anything at all without Extra Item Slot? It seems the FAQ calls out no barding, no neck, no nothin'. If so it seems quite unfair to those who wish to have a serpentine companion. Am I missing something?
Snakes haven't been able to wear Barding or Neck slot items for several years now. Nothing about this update changes that.
Sometimes an option isn't mechanically equal to all other options.
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That quote from Blood of the Beast also says that human/kitsune couples are rare, so that statement about their offspring can probably be guaranteed for no more than a couple of generations (with the results of anything beyond that being completely unknown).
Note also that it took quite a while for Paizo to come up with alternate racial traits for half-elves and half-orcs who are mostly human. So far we have no similar traits for kitsune.
But magic can overcome even problems like this. A kitsune reincarnated into a human could become the ancestor of humans with the Racial Heritage (Kitsune) feat -- in fact, reincarnation could provide a racial heritage of sorts to any other race no matter how incompatible the two races are.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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You don't need dragon's blood to have a draconic bloodline (), so I don't see why you'd need Kitsune blood for a Racial Heritage.
If you do... well, have you heard of blood brothers?
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I don't see the line about "always kitsune" in the Additional Resources or Campaign Clarifications, nor do I see anything in Racial Heritage about "except kitsune". Thus, I see no justification to enforce a random sourcebook's broad generalization as an overarching Pathfinder Society rule.
(In addition, using obscure bits of flavor to try and kill character concepts one doesn't like is rather poor form. But that's just my opinion.)
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To continue the Racial Heritage train, Blood of the Beast states that any time a human and a kitsune mate, the offspring is always kitsune. Does this prevent a human character from taking Racial Heritage (kitsune), seeing as it makes it impossible for a human to even have a kitsune ancestor?
No.
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I really don't think abit of fluff text is going to overide a legal mechanical option.It clearly identifies the intent of what the feat is supposed to represent, which at the very least makes the option wildly inappropriate.
it doesn't make it wildly inappropriate. It, at the very worst, makes it violate a tiny bit of lore that came out years after the race and the feat had already been written and has never been seen before or since. Neither mechanics nor fluff are 100% consistent with themselves, much less each other.
That's before you get into the wacky world of polymorphing, shape changing, soul possessions and other weirdness that gets you extra points in the games of paracountess bingo that pass for a pathfinders family tree.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I really don't think abit of fluff text is going to overide a legal mechanical option.It clearly identifies the intent of what the feat is supposed to represent, which at the very least makes the option wildly inappropriate.it doesn't make it wildly inappropriate. It, at the very worst, makes it violate a tiny bit of lore that came out years after the race and the feat had already been written and has never been seen before or since. Neither mechanics nor fluff are 100% consistent with themselves, much less each other.
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On top of that too its pretty well established fluff that you can in fact retain racial traits of the most alien of creatures. In fact one of the options is in fact entirely appropriate for Ktisune. Then again I might be confusing their fluff from another game.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Northwestern Indiana
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Paracountess Bingo. Ooh, I really want to play that game now!
While I love the fluff about kitsune always breeding kitsune, in a world with gods anything can happen.
Hmm
I can easily see a god decreeing that a human who greatly helped kitsune would have descendants who mechanically would have the Racial Heritage (kitsune) trait. As the power of gods generally can't be measured by mortal yardsticks, I would argue that is a simple way to explain how there are exceptions to "always" fluff. Fluff is useful and enjoyable, but the rules as written are more important. (I was a bit annoyed by the 4.0 D&D fluff that a tiefling's descendants would always be tieflings. This logically would mean that soon or later, all humans would disappear as the number of tieflings grew with each interbreeding between humans and tieflings.)
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Why not?
Okay, Janira. Same difference!
Hats, from True Dragons!
Ghenett Manor Gauntlet
The Harrowing, Murder's Mark, Phantom Phenomena
Overflow Archives, Between the Lines. Abducted in Aether
There are portals and rhymes and nonsense galore... All we need now is a kitsune with a good disguise skill and bunny ears, and we're good to go!
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Just to be clear ..
All other methods of gaining new spells (such as by gaining a level or purchasing access to an NPC's spellbook) function as described in the Core Rulebook and relevant class descriptions.
We can still assume that every spell for every class is available to learn from a NPC between scenarios, right?
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You may upgrade one weapon, armor, or wondrous item to another as long as the new item occupies the same slot, is made of the same material, has the same general shape, and has all of the abilities of the original item. For example, you can upgrade a +1 longsword into a +1 frost longsword or a cloak of resistance +1 into a cloak of resistance +2. You may also upgrade a magic weapon or armor into one of the named weapons or armors, such as upgrading a +1 banded mail into a banded mail of luck. As another example, you can upgrade a belt of incredible dexterity +2 into a belt of the weasel from Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Equipment , which grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity as well as other benefits.
To upgrade a magic item, pay the difference in price between the new item and the original item.
I'm reading that as you can upgrade bags of holding from I to II to III now. Seem legit?