Pulling Back the Curtain—PaizoCon 2016 Announcements!

As a long-time subscriber to the AP line I can't think of any CR range/encounter type/background which I couldn't pull out of one AP or another; I consider tweeking things as part of my (GM) job.

This is true (and something I do a lot, too). But for someone just getting into the hobby, without a shelf full of APs and modules, it's going to be a lot cheaper to buy one hardback than several dozen PDFs.

And even though I have the shelf full of APs and modules, I'm not going to say no to one more book that might have just what I'm looking for ... not to mention the HeroLab data set to make quick stat tweaks.

This thread feels less like pulling back the curtain than it does looking at the backs of people who are looking behind the curtain: reading comments about announcements many of us haven't see yet.

My own fault, presumably, for not attending Paizo Con and not following anyone or anything on Twitter.

Where do the stationary Luddites go for information?

...To the top of the page, where you can read the blog post?

This thread feels less like pulling back the curtain than it does looking at the backs of people who are looking behind the curtain: reading comments about announcements many of us haven't see yet.

My own fault, presumably, for not attending Paizo Con and not following anyone or anything on Twitter.

Where do the stationary Luddites go for information?

Above blog post gives the highlights, if you look back at my Twitter feed (here) you should be able to get a few more bits that I did live. You don't need to sign up for Twitter or follow me to read. The format isn't brilliant as it's my running timeline, but I'm still away, and although I've tried to use Storify to reformer my tweets into a permanent form, their tablet site version is... Less than optimal, at least without paying for the upgrade.

What is a "eat based race"?

^I can't find the original reference to this, but I would guess that it means that we will be seeing a race of Homer Simpsons . . . Although I don't know any details, I would imagine that they have a serious Constitution bonus but take penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom, and take an additional Will Save penalty when tempted by food, but gain morale bonuses and a speed boost when consuming food, even on the run . . . .

What is a "eat based race"?

^I can't find the original reference to this, but...

Enlight_Bystand's Twitter feed from the Banquet announcement

Classes including technimage, engineer, celerian, eat based race

???

Rat based race, I suspect.

An "eat based race", that's probably halflings.

I thought that was what elves looked like when you removed their mind-control-the-primitive-humans illusion. They've always been extra-planar tentacled things.

So elves are like the Thermians from Galaxy Quest. Huh. Revealed just in time for Starfinder.

I thought that was what elves looked like when you removed their mind-control-the-primitive-humans illusion. They've always been extra-planar tentacled things.

Darn, it's a bit late to make this canon, isn't it?

Dragon78 wrote:

What is a "eat based race"?

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I can't find the original reference to this, but...

Enlight_Bystand's Twitter feed from the Banquet announcement

Quote:

Classes including technimage, engineer, celerian, eat based race

???

sorry, looks like my oversized fingers claimed that - it should be Rat based race.

To be honest, not very interested in most of these things. Giantslayer was a "traditional AP" and it wasn't well received. This sounds like more of the same.

The three hardcovers don't speak to me, either, unless the Encounter Codex is more of an encounter design book, instead of just a bunch of sample encounters. Horror encounters are iffy with the Pathfinder PC power scale, since monsters you can just smash are not very terrifying.

Strange Aeons is something I *will* get, though. I have the same concerns there, too, though, as with the Horror Adventures book.

If you check out the adventure outline of all six volumes as described at the seminar, you'll find that Ironfang Invasion is not as "vanilla" as you think, probably. I, for one, am looking forward to it, and I have the feeling it's going to be much more interesting that Giantslayer. However, you just can't expect Paizo to go "full gonzo" on each and every adventure path from now.

Where can I check out that outline? I'm open minded to reconsidering my vanilla opinion.

To be honest, not very interested in most of these things. Giantslayer was a "traditional AP" and it wasn't well received. This sounds like more of the same.

The three hardcovers don't speak to me, either, unless the Encounter Codex is more of an encounter design book, instead of just a bunch of sample encounters. Horror encounters are iffy with the Pathfinder PC power scale, since monsters you can just smash are not very terrifying.

Strange Aeons is something I *will* get, though. I have the same concerns there, too, though, as with the Horror Adventures book.

From the core description of Ironfang I was the same, but when Crystal went into detail I was much more enthused - twisted fey, Vault builders, the lower levels of a sky citadel, a pocket dimension

I suspect that if Rise of the Runelords were to have been a newly released AP this past year or two, it would have been met with a resounding cry of "BOOOOORRIIING!" from everyone who has been fed such a steady diet of New Class Option Crunch and BizzarroAPs over Pathfinder's life. Silly, isn't it?

But Rise of the Runelords was a highly traditional super conservative AP. It's just that it was executed flawlessly :)

But Rise of the Runelords was a highly traditional super conservative AP. It's just that it was executed flawlessly :)

Okay, but two questions immediately leap to mind:

1 - Being that it is highly traditional fantasy, would it have stood a chance with today's AP expectations? "Today's expectations" being defined as something NOT super traditional.

2 - If The Ironfang Invasion is also flawlessly executed, will people who insist on Paizo always pushing the envelope check their expectations at the Internet door? I personally believe Hell's Rebels was executed flawlessly (excepting its title), and is pretty traditional, but the envelope pushers still don't like it.

I don't believe that "gives us weird APs" is the expectation of majority. It is the expectation of a vocal group, myself included. Perhaps the combined "give us weird APs" group 1 and "we'll swing either way" group 2 and "give us mostly traditional APs but we don't mind Iron Gods every now and then" group 3 outweigh the "orcs and princesses no wuxia sci fi superhero crap please" group 4, and that's why Paizo's array of APs insofar looks like it does.

And if put out today, RotRL would be met with universal praise from group 2 and group 3. Perhaps also from group 4, if they can stomach gay paladins and Lovecraft in their traditional fantasy. Many can't. So nothing new here.

Also, I am an envelope pusher and I think Hell's Rebels is one of the best APs ever and perhaps the most consistent in quality of all APs, ever (sure CotCT was super cool, but that Shoanti book was weirdly out of place, sure RoW was great but I found Mother Maiden Crone somewhat a chore).

So if IFI has the same level of quality as RotRL and HR, I'm up for it. It's just that Giantslayer was bland, boring and hopelessly uninspired beyond book 1 and 2, so the moment I saw the IFI outline I was wondering if it's going to be more Hell's Rebels or more Giantslayer.

The "generic greenskins are invading" premise doesn't give me much hope but hey, maybe this time a high level party won't have to bulldoze through 47 Hobgoblins with levels in Warrior aided by 11 Hobgoblins with levels in Adept and 3 Hobgoblins Rogue/Monks by book 5.

I love it when Paizo does something different, so I guess I'm an "envelope pusher" and yes, as Gorbacz says Hell's Rebels is phenomenal (even the title) so I don't get where you say people have been b@$#$ing about it. In fact, I don't think I've heard many bad things about it at all, beyond the nit picky "that's not how you run a rebellion, this is how I would do it..."

The nice thing about "envelope pushers" is we just want something fresh and different, it doesn't necessarily have to have Laser Guns and Death Rays. But, it would be cool if it did. :-)

To be fair part of giantslayers problem is also because a previous traditonal adventure path had already done it's entire schtic better (Ie book 3-4 of rise of the runelords)

For the record, Gorbacz and captain yesterday, I've never seen either of you as anything less than reasonable. I know you both like seeing the envelope pushed, but you are willing to give credit where credit is due.

To "define" myself: the only AP I have outright disliked is Skulls & Shackles. I just couldn't get behind that one pretty much from page 1. Really? They press-ganged Lini and her cat to be crew? Even as a "traditionalist" I was able to read and appreciate Iron Gods for its story. Skulls & Shackles couldn't get me, though. So I guess I'm part of Gorbacz's group 3. Which, honestly, I think is the biggest group. The only thing up in the air is which color envelope various members of this group doesn't want pushed.

So, yes, I like what Paizo has done, in large part. Because of that, I'm willing to wait and see what anything they put out is like before I pass judgement.

But looking at the pure numbers that post counts are seems to indicate that Hell's Rebels has fallen flat. Certainly not as flat as Second Darkness or Shattered Star. But it doesn't seem to be exciting people. Which is too bad. Because, like you've both acknowledged, it's incredibly well done.

My comment comes from the standpoint of being tired of seeing the back-and-forth war of words between groups 1 and 4, I guess. Also, I think there is a "group 5" out there: Start my AP at 10th level with 5 levels of mythic tiers, please. And if I'm not constantly bedazzled by the bad guy's perfectly laid out stat block, then please don't bother putting it in the book. It grows wearisome.

For the record, I'm tentatively excited for The Ironfang Invasion. Not because it has Hobgoblins, but because of the setting, and because Crystal Frasier is developing it.

I'll bite. What's exciting about Molthune and Nirmathas? To me they just seem like "Andoran versus Cheliax" Lite, less calories, less flavor, basic Euro-Anglo-Saxon medieval fantasy with no unique hooks. No tech like Numeria, no mammoths or a big demon chasm, no witch queens. Why should I give two figs about Molthune and Nirmathas?

I think what the captain likes is a) Crystal Frasier is developing it, and b)....more of a) really.

Well, I actually AM excited because of the Hobgoblins. They're my favorite villain race, and featured heavily in the first PF campaign I ever ran.

So I went and picked up the ISWG for a browse to see if maybe I had been misjudging Molthune and Nirmathas. I don't think I have. Aggressive army nation and the plucky liberty rebels who broke away. It's mini-Cheliax and mini-Andoran. Not much more of a hook beyond that, to either of them. And if you're going to say, ISWG only has four pages each -- many other countries have introduced interesting hooks in those four pages. Irrisen, Numeria, Shackles, Ustalav, they manage to paint a picture of a unique country with a specific hook in four pages. Molthune and Nirmathas just come off as cut-rate copies of actual important countries with the serial numbers filed off.

If there's more info out there somewhere that paints the two countries as more interesting, I'm more than willing to take a look and try to reassess. But as things stand right now, Crystal's going to have an uphill battle making me care about this uninspiring region.

Molthune and Nirmathas are one area which some people have been asking for a full on full fledged AP for a while now. Resolution and thoughts of how it would work if they went all out war on each other were some ideas which people tossed forth.

Just to note that you can definitely do Horror in Pathfinder <_< Just have different expections from Horror rpg systes. Like, its definitely going to be more action movie-y, but you can definitely include horror athmosphere along it.

Anyhoo, Villain Codex and Encounter Codex sounds awesome to me. If we won't get NPC Codex 2, its nice to get something like them.

I have never understood the appeal of Molthune and Nirmathas. It is nice that Hobgoblins are getting some love but I have never been a fan of them.

I'll bite. What's exciting about Molthune and Nirmathas? To me they just seem like "Andoran versus Cheliax" Lite, less calories, less flavor, basic Euro-Anglo-Saxon medieval fantasy with no unique hooks. No tech like Numeria, no mammoths or a big demon chasm, no witch queens. Why should I give two figs about Molthune and Nirmathas?

Some people might actually like these countries exactly because they don't have any weird or outlandish hookups.

Who asked for weird or outlandish? All I asked for was interesting. It's entirely possible to make a country interesting without weird and outlandish. The Shackles, for example, has a clear pirate theme. That's not weird or outlandish, but it is interesting. Molthune and Nirmathas have no such themes, other than B-rate copying what other countries have already done better.

Andoran is American revolution-ish, Nirmathas is Robin Hood.

Fair enough, Andoran has a higher tech level. They live in stone houses instead of wooden houses and use muskets instead of bows, to rebel against their evil tax masters.

Fair enough, Andoran has a higher tech level. They live in stone houses instead of wooden houses and use muskets instead of bows, to rebel against their evil tax masters.

Well, it's more than that. Andoran has actual cities, and an actual government.

In Nirmathas, the militia is the government.

I mean, you can argue that they have similar concerns, but colonial America and Robin Hood feel pretty different.

There's also the fungal infestation in Fangwood.

Samy wrote:

Fair enough, Andoran has a higher tech level. They live in stone houses instead of wooden houses and use muskets instead of bows, to rebel against their evil tax masters.

Well, it's more than that. Andoran has actual cities, and an actual government.

In Nirmathas, the militia is the government.

I mean, you can argue that they have similar concerns, but colonial America and Robin Hood feel pretty different.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. To me they seem extremely similar except for the clothes and muskets. Having said that, I *DO* very much appreciate your views, because it helps me see the differences between the two better.

All I know, is we're totally playing with Kitsune, Ratfolk, etc.

Just to make sure we capture the Robin Hood vibe. :-)

Or maybe we should pick a different version of Robin Hood...

Actually that version of Robin is one of the best along with Men in Tights, and the Errol Flynn version.

What I love about the Nirmathas/Molthune conflict - unlike Andoran/Cheliax - it's not Good vs. Evil. It's closer to Law vs. Chaos. If you look at it through the lens of good vs. evil, both sides have their good points and bad points.

All I know, is we're totally playing with Kitsune, Ratfolk, etc.

Just to make sure we capture the Robin Hood vibe. :-)

Or maybe we should pick a different version of Robin Hood...

Well you might as well add in another Disney movie with a scuri* wizard and apprentice.

* Bonus: More Crystal Frasier goodness!

I don'r see the Molthune/Nirmathas dynamic as entirely different form Cheliax/Andoran. Both countris are not at all similar to the others two, and I don't find them uninteresting at all. Please, don't assume your opinion of something is the same for everyone else.

By the way, did Crystal announce the titles of the individual adventures of Ironfang Invasion in her seminar?

If there's more info out there somewhere that paints the two countries as more interesting, I'm more than willing to take a look and try to reassess. But as things stand right now, Crystal's going to have an uphill battle making me care about this uninspiring region.

I found The Wizard's Mask really useful in getting an idea of what Molthune and Nirmathas were all about.

I had some problems with the novel in other ways, but the portrayal of that part of Golarion was good, imo.

I disagree about Wizard's Mask -- one of my (many) complaints about the novel was that it turned both Molthune and Nirmathas into caricatures that would have fit better in a Gilbert & Sullivan musical, or even a Benny Hill routine, than in Golarion. You can do humor in Golarion without turning the setting into a cardboard-cutout joke fodder. (Cf: the Lair's series.) (And I'm not even sure Wizard's Mask was trying to do it for comedic purposes; the comedy didn't work on me, if it was.) (Wizard's Mask is the only Pathfinder Tales novel that I found outright bad.)

Even if Nirmathas vs. Molthune bears a lot of similarities to Andoran vs. Cheliax, we haven't seen a lot of (any?) adventures either addressing, or even using as a backdrop the Androan/Chelaix conflict. Some fiction, yes, but I don't know that any APs or modules have dealt with that.

Starting with that conflict, and throwing in the wrench of the third party (Isger-style goblinoid invasion) could make for some very interesting political entanglements. I look forward to seeing what they do with it.

Fangwood Keep is set in Nirmathas and slightly addresses the conflict.

I disagree about Wizard's Mask -- one of my (many) complaints about the novel was that it turned both Molthune and Nirmathas into caricatures that would have fit better in a Gilbert & Sullivan musical, or even a Benny Hill routine, than in Golarion. You can do humor in Golarion without turning the setting into a cardboard-cutout joke fodder. (Cf: the Lair's series.) (And I'm not even sure Wizard's Mask was trying to do it for comedic purposes; the comedy didn't work on me, if it was.) (Wizard's Mask is the only Pathfinder Tales novel that I found outright bad.)

I didn't mean to express a view on the quality (it was one of my least favorite PF Tales books too), but I think that novel is a good source if Samy is looking for more canonical information about that region. I can't think of many other places.

By the way, did Crystal announce the titles of the individual adventures of Ironfang Invasion in her seminar?

I remember them being mentioned, but didn't get a chance to get them down between my tweeting. Know Direction have started releasing their recordings, so it shouldn't be too long before the q&a comes out

Thanks!