Year of the Sky Key Q&A

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I find that answer glib, because in the space between those options, characters may have to act out of character or be left with a gross lack of understanding as to what they just did which isn't a satisfactory play experience. Completion of a scenario isn't the objective, enjoyment of the gaming session is.

The GM can and should help here - evocative descriptions made our game of this, since the GM really did a great job conveying the alien feel of technology to us even when we didn't know what it was. The ability to know the game mechanics of what is going on should be totally separate from the in-character experience. If you only enjoy mechanics, I could see where this could be a problem. Both players and GMs need to work harder to run these different genre scenarios.

As for enjoyment: some players enjoy mystery, experimentation, and the possibility that they aren't safe because a developer has ensured that no threats are "too hard" for my PC. YMMV.

One final thought (you didn't think I'd miss the chance to promote my favorite cause, did you? ;)

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work. (Of course, in this case, if your one thing is "hulk smash!" with a big adamantine weapon, you can probably still do what you always do.)

The idea of Pathfinders as specialists in a team is fine, until only one member of that team can do anything at all and the others are reduced to ineffectiveness. Having a back-up plan, back-up combat style, back-up everything usually doesn't reduce your main thing by much, and lets you play an active role no matter what the situation.

One final thought (you didn't think I'd miss the chance to promote my favorite cause, did you? ;)

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work. (Of course, in this case, if your one thing is "hulk smash!" with a big adamantine weapon, you can probably still do what you always do.)

The idea of Pathfinders as specialists in a team is fine, until only one member of that team can do anything at all and the others are reduced to ineffectiveness. Having a back-up plan, back-up combat style, back-up everything usually doesn't reduce your main thing by much, and lets you play an active role no matter what the situation.

I'll agree that 06-03 rewards well rounded characters.

06-01 punishes those who don't power attack with 2 handed weapons, it doesn't reward anyone.

06-01 punishes those who don't power attack with 2 handed weapons, it doesn't reward anyone.

Speaking as a two-hand Power Attacker who was in that scenario, let it be known that I in fact WAS rewarded for having other abilities. (Though yes, we probably would have all died without my 2HPA..)

I was rewarded as well, my friend. Perhaps it has to do with our cause?

One final thought (you didn't think I'd miss the chance to promote my favorite cause, did you? ;)

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work. (Of course, in this case, if your one thing is "hulk smash!" with a big adamantine weapon, you can probably still do what you always do.)

The idea of Pathfinders as specialists in a team is fine, until only one member of that team can do anything at all and the others are reduced to ineffectiveness. Having a back-up plan, back-up combat style, back-up everything usually doesn't reduce your main thing by much, and lets you play an active role no matter what the situation.

I haven't actually played or GMed those scenarios yet, but I find this assertion a bit unlikely. Unless your definition of well-rounded is that you must have the Technologist feat I don't see how requiring a specific feat to make various skill checks is going to be rewarding for a well rounded character that doesn't have that specific feat.

Well-rounded character
"A locked door! Good thing I have disable device trained. Oh, I can't use that because I don't have Technologist?"
"Some unusual item/architecture/whatever, surely I can get some idea of what it is with my many trained knowledge skills? Or perhaps I can try to activate it with UMD? No? Not without the Technologist feat?"
"A strange creature, maybe all of those knowledge skills will be useful here? No, still need Technologist?"
"Can I try to steal that thing on his belt that looks like a weapon using Sleight of Hand? Nope, apparently not without Technologist."
"Some strange writing? Surely I can interpret it with Linguistics? No, still need Technologist."

Artoo, you're a bit over the top on a few of your examples. Technologist would have no effect on your sleight of hand to take something or your linguistics to translate text. It also has no effect on your UMD; the issue there is that the item in question is in fact not magical.

What it does do is make things that are literally unheard of hard to understand and figure out. It requires us to play the game and not just roll dice. It requires GMs and players to put a little more thought into what they are doing.

Mike has lamented many times that people complain when the scenarios are written with unusual challenges, rather than accepting them and looking for ways to deal with them. You know what? We shouldn't *always* succeed. There should be things we have to puzzle out. There should be encounters we have to run and hide from. It makes the times we do come out on top more interesting.

Well-rounded character

Vs Mr Lucky 7s with the adamantite greatsword "ME SMASH PUNY ROBOT. ME SMASH PUNY DOOR. ME SMASH PUNY THING ME NO SMART ENOUGH TO IDENTIFY!" works BETTER as as problem solved than someone with skills.

Artoo, you're a bit over the top on a few of your examples. Technologist would have no effect on your sleight of hand to take something or your linguistics to translate text.

Without the Technologist feat you cannot use Linguistics to translate Androffan.

A character with the Technologist feat can attempt a Linguistics check to decipher certain complex messages that appear in ruins. Note that many of these messages are written in Androffan.

inb4 argument about whether that means you can't translate Androffan without the Technologist feat at all, or just the complex messages in ruins (of which some may be Androffan).

Artoo wrote:

Well-rounded character

Vs Mr Lucky 7s with the adamantite greatsword "ME SMASH PUNY ROBOT. ME SMASH PUNY DOOR. ME SMASH PUNY THING ME NO SMART ENOUGH TO IDENTIFY!" works BETTER as as problem solved than someone with skills.

GARGRIM AM SOLVE WITH ADAMANTITE LONG AX! AM BARBARIAN, AM NO TALKY THINKY TYPE. PROBLEM AM HAVE SIMPLE VIOLENT SOLUTION. YOU AM THINKY TYPE. GARGRIM AM NO LIKE THINKY TYPE.

I haven't actually played or GMed those scenarios yet, but ...

When you do get around to actually reading the material, you'll understand I was referring to the combats. Being well-rounded doesn't mean, "I am awesome with *a* weapon *and* *a* skill!" It means being able to handle different situations. If you don't want to go into unknown situations and discover new things, don't be a Pathfinder.

Artoo wrote:

I haven't actually played or GMed those scenarios yet, but ...

When you do get around to actually reading the material, you'll understand I was referring to the combats. Being well-rounded doesn't mean, "I am awesome with *a* weapon *and* *a* skill!" It means being able to handle different situations. If you don't want to go into unknown situations and discover new things, don't be a Pathfinder.

What he's referring to is the fact that, with the rules in the technology guide which have been reaffirmed by campaign leadership, your ideal well rounded pathfinder is just as useless at discovering anything as Mongo McSmashysmash. Worse, because Mongo actually can open the locked door.

Get technologist on a skill monkey for season 6, and then just retrain it away later.

Get technologist on a skill monkey for season 6, and then just retrain it away later.

That works once you know about it. For some reason I can't discern, it isn't mentioned in the Guide to Organized Play (despite there being a "special rules for Season 6" section!)

But even so, how does a season 6 skill-money feat-tax make the game more enjoyable for anyone?

It makes it harder, I agree. Just as season 4 make things harder. It's this season's equivalent of loading up on cold iron weapons and anti-outsider tech.

Holy Urgathoa, people.

Violence is a solution. It shouldn't be the only solution. It isn't. Move on.

It makes it harder, I agree. Just as season 4 make things harder. It's this season's equivalent of loading up on cold iron weapons and anti-outsider tech.

I guess I see the difference as this: Cold iron is core. Technologist? That changes the way core skills operate. Heck, most people outside the boards whom I've asked don't even know it exists. Plus "Year of the Demon" is a pretty good hint you can expect to deal with Outsiders. "Year of the Sky Key?" Not so much.

David_Bross wrote:

06-01 punishes those who don't power attack with 2 handed weapons, it doesn't reward anyone.

Speaking as a two-hand Power Attacker who was in that scenario, let it be known that I in fact WAS rewarded for having other abilities. (Though yes, we probably would have all died without my 2HPA..)

Hey, you weren't the only one who 2HPA'd his way to victory that day! But sadly, the only fleshy opponents we faced saw the wisdom of my words, so Father Skinsaw's thirst was not slaked that day.

Yeah, there's a difference. The book is not that expensive, and no scenarios require the feat to succeed. Non-skill based PCs aren't affected at all. I agree that perhaps the feat should have been introduced in the guide to society as well.

Holy Urgathoa, people.

Violence is a solution. It shouldn't be the only solution. It isn't. Move on.

GORUM AM DISAGREE. GARGRIM BELIEVE IF NOT SOLVED WITH VIOLENCE YOU HAVE NOT USED ENOUGH VIOLENCE. MURDER HOBO'S AM SHOULD KNOW BETTER!

Yeah, there's a difference. The book is not that expensive, and no scenarios require the feat to succeed. Non-skill based PCs aren't affected at all. I agree that perhaps the feat should have been introduced in the guide to society as well.

I think it would be clearer. If not included, at least mentioned so people playing skill-based PCs understand the feat and it's implications for their characters.

And in fairness, it may still happen.

Friend Gargrim - we are not all murder hobos; quite the opposite. Our Society is built on a history of resourceful, skilled, quick-witted individuals, with silver tongues back by cold steel when required. I will agree that the Society of today does not recall those glory days; it is no surprise that our masked leaders choose to use us as fodder in gang wars and rank-and-file in armies, since that seems to be what many Pathfinders are suited for.

Yet, there is much to be said for plumbing the unknown, seeing things that no living eye has seen for thousands of years. History is vast, and we are but transient blips; by exploring and discovering, we can glimpse, if only for a moment, the magnificent tapestry of which we are only individual threads. There is grandeur and beauty and power in the tapestry of history, my friend. I bid you, explore the world with eyes wide open, and stay your hand when necessary, lest you destroy knowledge which will never see the light of day. Who knows what secrets your victim might be the last possessor of?

Friend Gargrim - we are not all murder hobos; quite the opposite. Our Society is built on a history of resourceful, skilled, quick-witted individuals, with silver tongues back by cold steel when required. I will agree that the Society of today does not recall those glory days; it is no surprise that our masked leaders choose to use us as fodder in gang wars and rank-and-file in armies, since that seems to be what many Pathfinders are suited for.

Yet, there is much to be said for plumbing the unknown, seeing things that no living eye has seen for thousands of years. History is vast, and we are but transient blips; by exploring and discovering, we can glimpse, if only for a moment, the magnificent tapestry of which we are only individual threads. There is grandeur and beauty and power in the tapestry of history, my friend. I bid you, explore the world with eyes wide open, and stay your hand when necessary, lest you destroy knowledge which will never see the light of day. Who knows what secrets your victim might be the last possessor of?

Beware Lamplighter, lest you nominate yourself to be the next target of Gargrim's senseless aggression.

Two of my PCs have grabbed breadth of experience for this, but I was lucky in that I have two PCs with lots of skills that qualify for this feat.

Artoo wrote:

I haven't actually played or GMed those scenarios yet, but ...

When you do get around to actually reading the material, you'll understand I was referring to the combats. Being well-rounded doesn't mean, "I am awesome with *a* weapon *and* *a* skill!" It means being able to handle different situations. If you don't want to go into unknown situations and discover new things, don't be a Pathfinder.

Ah, between this and other posts of yours extolling the virtues of well-rounded characters I had taken your meaning of well-rounded characters to mean ones that are capable of things other than combat. If you're just talking about being capable of contributing to combat in multiple ways, I can see that. Although that's something that's been valuable in past seasons, too.

Artoo, you're a bit over the top on a few of your examples. Technologist would have no effect on your sleight of hand to take something or your linguistics to translate text. It also has no effect on your UMD; the issue there is that the item in question is in fact not magical.

What it does do is make things that are literally unheard of hard to understand and figure out. It requires us to play the game and not just roll dice. It requires GMs and players to put a little more thought into what they are doing.

Mike has lamented many times that people complain when the scenarios are written with unusual challenges, rather than accepting them and looking for ways to deal with them. You know what? We shouldn't *always* succeed. There should be things we have to puzzle out. There should be encounters we have to run and hide from. It makes the times we do come out on top more interesting.

I was pointing out that a well-rounded character won't have much impact. I was assuming well-rounded to mean capable of things other than violence. What you're pointing out is that the players can look for creative solutions. I made no comment on that.

The individual examples weren't the point I was trying to make, some were intentionally over the top although I could see someone with a GM vs player mentality choosing to actually apply some of those interpretations (after all, if you use sleight of hand opposed by a robot's perception isn't that a skill check made against technology?). BigNorseWolf seems to have understood the point I was trying to make, the need for the Technologist feat means that the characters that solve everything with violence are at an advantage over the ones who try to be more well-rounded, for what I assumed to be the intended meaning of well-rounded.

GORUM AM DISAGREE. GARGRIM BELIEVE IF NOT SOLVED WITH VIOLENCE YOU HAVE NOT USED ENOUGH VIOLENCE. MURDER HOBO'S AM SHOULD KNOW BETTER!

You can try finesse. It's violence using the smaller muscles.

Or intelligence, the violence of the mind.

Most of my PCs are "well-rounded" instead of optimized for murder hoboing, but the martial ones all still have adamantine can openers.

There is one simple solution to all of this, and it is the one I myself and several of my friends will be utillizing for the next year. Don't play anything from season 6. Skip the whole thing. Fortunately I'm relatively new to PFS, I only started a year ago, and still have many older scenarios to play through. This isn't the kind of game I want to play, so I choose to vote with my feat(and wallet when it comes to the tech guide). After gencon I decided I'd let leadership review things and make any necessary changes, but it seems they think 6-01 and 6-02 are appropriately leveled. I'm sitting out the year of the 2 handed adamintie greatsword, oops I mean the year of the Sky Key, hopefully leadership will notice their mistakes and season seven will be better.

All of season 6 won't involve this stuff, just as season 5 wasn't all demons. Plus, I don't think you understand the mechanics well. If I have an adamantine weapon, I don't NEED it to be a great sword.

Personally, I'm just going to avoid running the tech-heavy Season 6 scenarios, because I don't want to have to spring Technologist on any unsuspecting players. I have no issues with playing the Season 6 stuff, because I'm fully-informed about the existence and implications of the feat. :)

I've run it with no technologists and it works out fine. They can't identify some of the loot until later. And have to learn enemies by trial and error. It's not much different than not having a detect magic monkey or a knowledge-monger.

My seeker cleric doesn't really know anything other than which buffs people like and to heal when people take damage :)

There is one simple solution to all of this, and it is the one I myself and several of my friends will be utillizing for the next year. Don't play anything from season 6. Skip the whole thing. Fortunately I'm relatively new to PFS, I only started a year ago, and still have many older scenarios to play through. This isn't the kind of game I want to play, so I choose to vote with my feat(and wallet when it comes to the tech guide). After gencon I decided I'd let leadership review things and make any necessary changes, but it seems they think 6-01 and 6-02 are appropriately leveled. I'm sitting out the year of the 2 handed adamintie greatsword, oops I mean the year of the Sky Key, hopefully leadership will notice their mistakes and season seven will be better.

Not everything is tech heavy. Campaign management has said several times that only some scenarios will feature numerian tech because they acknowledge that it's not for everyone.

Please don't throw out the whole season just because a minority of the scenarios have numerian tech. And please don't tell all your friends the wrong information. You'll miss out for no reason.

I've run it with no technologists and it works out fine. They can't identify some of the loot until later. And have to learn enemies by trial and error. It's not much different than not having a detect magic monkey or a knowledge-monger.

My seeker cleric doesn't really know anything other than which buffs people like and to heal when people take damage :)

I have actually seen players go nuts with finally something they CANT identify off the bat. Because then they can do...

SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Experimentation is half the fun.

Not everything is tech heavy. Campaign management has said several times that only some scenarios will feature numerian tech because they acknowledge that it's not for everyone.

Please don't throw out the whole season just because a minority of the scenarios have numerian tech. And please don't tell all your friends the wrong information. You'll miss out for no reason.

Happy to, as long as they tell us _in advance_ which scenarios contain tech. It's a two way street.

Acedio wrote:

Not everything is tech heavy. Campaign management has said several times that only some scenarios will feature numerian tech because they acknowledge that it's not for everyone.

Please don't throw out the whole season just because a minority of the scenarios have numerian tech. And please don't tell all your friends the wrong information. You'll miss out for no reason.

Happy to, as long as they tell us _in advance_ which scenarios contain tech. It's a two way street.

I would imagine the scenario blurbs will probably be the best place to find this out. It has been announced that approximately 6 of the season 6 scenarios will be tech related and we already have 3 of those.

Undone wrote:

In 6-02 there is an encounter with an average damage output in the 100 range with specific written tactics that they gang up on 1 target. At low tier the encounter is only in the 40-50 range, because that's a consolation.

The encounters are numerically high using monsters which should by all rights be CR 5 or 6

Could you explain the math behind that? Preferably in a different thread, since this isn't the discussion thread for that scenario.

You know what, never mind. I just got a look at the scenario in question, and the only way you get that damage is consciously choosing to as a GM.

Dead Inside wrote:

Happy to, as long as they tell us _in advance_ which scenarios contain tech. It's a two way street.

I would imagine the scenario blurbs will probably be the best place to find this out. It has been announced that approximately 6 of the season 6 scenarios will be tech related and we already have 3 of those.

If you look at season 5, the majority of scenarios mentioned demons directly or indirectly in the blurb even though only a handful actually included demons. It needs to be explicit.

the only way you get that damage is consciously choosing to as a GM.

...and?

;-)

Without a target armor class against which their dpr is 100, the above claim is meaningless.

Not everything is tech heavy. Campaign management has said several times that only some scenarios will feature numerian tech because they acknowledge that it's not for everyone.

Please don't throw out the whole season just because a minority of the scenarios have numerian tech. And please don't tell all your friends the wrong information. You'll miss out for no reason.

It's not exactly the tech I have an issue with, more the general theme I noticed with scenario design. If a new level 3 character saves every single gp he gets from the point he starts to play, he can just barely afford an adamantine weapon. Yep season 6 gives us hardness 10 in tier 3-4. Almost resulted in a tpk. And not because the party was a group of ultra speciallized characters, but because nobody was a 2hand fighter, and nobody had adamantine. 3 hours nearly dying twice on an initial encounter isn't fun, and that has little to do with tech.

Now what about my description above is misinformation?

Are you not suggesting that you have a concern that most of the season 6 scenarios are going to feature creatures with hardness 10? The only creatures with hardness 10 are robots, which falls under the umbrella of "tech."

Or is it the fact that "the first two scenarios are difficult in general" that you have an issue with? Maybe the "year of the 2 handed adamintie greatsword" joke threw me off.

I feel hardness 10 is inappropriate in tier 3-4 regardless of what creature type it comes from. Hardness 8 in tier 2-4 is also not appropriate IMHO. Leadership needs to re-evaluate what an appropriate challenge is.

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work. (Of course, in this case, if your one thing is "hulk smash!" with a big adamantine weapon, you can probably still do what you always do.)

I vehemently disagree, these scenario's punish well rounded players, the technologist feat is a specialization, and without it, all the other well rounded skills become useless.

Moreover the skill system is the way by which players are intended to explore the corners of the story in a way their character can relate too. A player may make astute observations and ask questions to get a player understanding, or they may role play to get additional information where there are NPCs to interact with, but when a player wants there character to understand the nature of a spooky alter, then need knowledge religion to infer more then surface observations, if they want to speculate on the stability of a structure they need knowledge engineering. Attempting to divorce the rule system from the game and then saying the game is fine is disingenuous to me.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work.

I vehemently disagree, these scenario's punish well rounded players, the technologist feat is a specialization, and without it, all the other well rounded skills become useless.

I'm going to take a wild guess that either you haven't played 6-03 or didn't really play 6-03.

Galnörag wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work.

I vehemently disagree, these scenario's punish well rounded players, the technologist feat is a specialization, and without it, all the other well rounded skills become useless.

I'm going to take a wild guess that either you haven't played 6-03 or didn't really play 6-03.

4.5 stars for a reason!

Galnörag wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Scenarios like 6-01/02/03 reward characters who are well-rounded. If all you can do is one thing really well, you are hooped when that one thing doesn't work.

I vehemently disagree, these scenario's punish well rounded players, the technologist feat is a specialization, and without it, all the other well rounded skills become useless.

I'm going to take a wild guess that either you haven't played 6-03 or didn't really play 6-03.

Can you blame him?

After the absurdity that was the Sealed Gate I have no intention of ever playing a Kyle Baird scenario again. And I wouldn't blame anyone else who took the same approach.