Advanced Class Guide Preview: Slayer

Tuesday, July 22, 2014

Into every generation, a slayer is born. The slayer is a hunter, a stalker, and a killer, with enough power to fight fairly and win, but the inclination to fight unfairly and win by an even wider margin. The slayer combines the stalking and combat styles of the rogue and the ranger with none of the ranger's nature focus. Basically, the slayer is Ezio from the Assassin's Creed series, the quintessential assassin and the last person you want to see leaping out at you from the shadows.

The slayer is a full BAB class with a slower sneak attack progression than the rogue, talents at even levels, and its own prime feature, favored target (which is now called studied target). Studied target is the slayer's spin on favored enemy. Instead of hating a particular type of creature, the slayer studies any target he wants (hey, no wonder it's called studied target!), gaining bonuses against that target until he switches targets. Since this bonus also applies to Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival (and later Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth), clever slayers can also gain a substantial boon from this feature in a variety of non-combat situations as well by studying NPCs during social encounters too. Favored target has unlimited daily uses, and who knows—if the old lady suddenly starts attacking, then you're even ready to fight back right away!


Illustration by Ramon Puasa Jr

In the original version, there were 16 choices for slayer talents with 8 additional advanced talents available at level 10. Playtesters had trouble finding enough talents that they wanted to take for their builds, so for the second playtest, this increased to 24 talents and 10 advanced talents, including the powerful combat style talent that could be taken three times, essentially granting the ranger's combat style feats to the slayer, and allowing the slayer the potential to amass a small army of feats at his disposal. Additionally, playtests had shown that the slayer's 4+Int bonus skill points were insufficient to pick up all the sorts of skills he needed to successfully slay, so he bumped up to 6+Int skill points.

The final version of the slayer as it appears in the Advanced Class Guide is quite similar to the second playtest version, so pull up your playtest document (or download it now) for an excellent preview of the class. The most exciting change is in the action economy of studied target—at low levels (before 7th when you can study as a swift action), melee slayers were finding the move action to study a target was really cramping their ambushes. So now, starting from level 1, if you hit and deal sneak attack damage, you can apply your studied target as an immediate action, and it even applies the favored target bonus to damage for that same attack. That way, you can ambush all you like and get right to the slaying!

The slayer screams out for archetypes that capture all the different facets of the iconic image of the slayer. The slayer archetypes in this book are really nice in that they give you what you're looking for with a relatively light touch, generally switching out a few of your talents for thematic abilities and losing very little else. The bounty hunter is your Boba Fett, bringing back criminals and debtors alive with combat maneuvers and an incapacitating death attack. The cleaner is the guy you send in to make sure those darned investigators don't figure out what happened, with a special ability to force any would-be detectives to beat the cleaner's Disguise or Stealth in order to find clues. The cutthroat is even more like Ezio, losing outdoorsy skills for city-based powers and skill bonuses that will help you leap off buildings instead of out of the shadows. The grave warden goes back to my intro quote with a kickass undead slayer, gaining an at-will self-only death ward at level 7 (it does cost 4 holy waters) and the ability to death attack an undead. But I'm sure you've been wondering "Mark, when are you going to get to that glowy purply shadow guy. He looks awesome!" That, my friends, is the stygian slayer, a killer imbued with the darkest shadows. He can cast invisibility, use wands and scrolls of a few thematic spells without a Use Magic Device Check, and turn into an inky black cloud that obscures vision. And that's just 5 of the 8 slayer archetypes in the final book! But wait—people have been asking for a thrown weapon ranger combat style for a while, right? Yeah, we have that too!

So you've got the rogue. You've got the ranger. Why should you be excited about the slayer class? Because those other classes serve a few masters when it comes to their design, but the slayer unashamedly serves only one—he wants to be the best at slaying, eliminating a chosen foe or foes. And he serves his master well. Even a fighter's offense can't keep up with the slayer, so if you prefer a style that emphasizes guile, stealth, and strong offense over defense, the slayer is the class for you.

As I'm typing this last paragraph, I've noticed that the slayer has some kind of a curved dagger to my throat, and he's made a few demands, so I want you to know, completely not under duress, that the slayer is my personal hero and is the best at all things. In fact, we're going to put out an entire book dedicated only to slayer options, and—aaaaaargh.

Mark Seifter
Designer

Editor's Note: After shooing the raptors away from the scene, we found this blog on a USB drive clutched in the hand of the remains of designer Mark Seifter. After a resurrection spell, he's fine now and back at work on Pathfinder Unchained, but he's still jumpy any time anyone mentions the slayer class. He defies anyone who claims that if he was dying, he wouldn't have bothered to have typed "Aaaaargh", he'd just say it.

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Tags: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ramon Puasa Jr Slayer
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ERMAHGERD!!! YOU COULD PLAY NIGHTCRAWLER!! XD


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I've played several Slayers in PFS and otherwise now. I'd be lying if I said this wasn't my current favourite class in the entirety of Pathfinder. It's certainly going to be the most skill-monkey-ish of the full BAB classes, moreso than the Ranger, thanks to its access to Trapfinding via Slayer Talents.

In terms of damage, it may fall only ever slightly behind the Ranger, but that's not a bad thing for the flexibility you get in return. Rangers who lack the levels to access Instant Enemy suffer in DPR when they don't face their favored enemies; Slayers can overtake them in certain situations thanks to Studied Target and Sneak Attack. Above all else, it's the full BAB that's the real kicker.

I've built Slayers as heavily-armored "Fighters", dedicated archers and marksmen, full-blown skill-monkeys and traditional backstabbing scoundrels; it's just such a wonderfully flexible mundane class that, for a non-spellcaster, doesn't punish or pidgeonhole you too much.

My personal favourite build, though, has been the Switch Hitting Slayer; borrowed heavily from the Switch Hitting Ranger. Like the ranger variant, you use your Slayer Talents to take the Archery Combat Style and put your regular feats into melee feats.

Just, bravo, Paizo. Bravo.


Wasted wrote:
It's certainly going to be the most skill-monkey-ish of the full BAB classes, moreso than the Ranger, thanks to its access to Trapfinding via Slayer Talents.

I think there is a trait for that. But I suppose that trait is not valid in PFS.


Most non-class skills have some sort of trait you can use, and there are archetypes that also give classes access as well, so my point there is already somewhat invalidated. I'm speaking more along what's available purely in-class.


There are two archetypes, the Urban Ranger being my favorite.

Gives up Endurance for Trapfinding, and replaces Favored Terrain with Favored Community which functions identically, but in cities.


Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
:shiver:
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?

Maybe if you use guns instead?


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Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
K177Y C47 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
It was an out of combat encounter; a series of opposed stealth, track and perception checks. The outcome was obvious from the start but the slayer just had to go through the motions. The death was off screen and quite.
Quite?..... Sudden?

I think the slayer caught him mid sentence.That's what you get for divulging his secr

Paizo Employee Designer

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VM mercenario wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
:shiver:
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?
Maybe if you use guns instead?

I can't risk that misfire chance. Only Stephen, as the designer of gunslingers, has the proper proficiencies to load one without the increased misfire rate, and he was out sick today.


Exactly. Studied Target looks heavily borrowed from the Guide Archetype, as well.


All in all, this probably will be a really great class that will allow tons of character concepts.


Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)

I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Zark wrote:
@ Deadmanwalking. Ok, you got a point. We just have to wait and see what the ACE offers to the fighter.

Yep. Though personally, I'm hoping for Pathfinder Unchained to do something...

We probably shouldn't set up expectations. I suspect the fighter won’t get a face lift. Although, obviously let’s hope I’m wrong.


VM mercenario wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

If I get this book (and I probably will), you better build one of those! >:)

Screw that! Build one even if I don't get the book. :P


Lemmy wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

If I get this book (and I probably will), you better build one of those! >:)

Screw that! Build one even if I don't get the book. :P

What! Your not getting the book?

This is the first book in a long time I will get as a hard cover AND as a PDF.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey, I might actually get two hard covers since I have two eyes and do not want to create discord between them.


This is gonna be my first hardcover. I've gotten by on PDFs till now, but I want this one. I want it badly.


Zark wrote:

What! Your not getting the book?

This is the first book in a long time I will get as a hard cover AND as a PDF.

I might... I'll buy the pdf, and probably the HeroLab pack. Then, if the other classes are really good (not just the 3 I like), I might buy the book as well.


Kalvit wrote:
Well if the Iron Gods campaign does indeed have chainsaw swords, I know some people will recreate an adorably psychotic Cleaner from a certain series.

Now I want to make a Patrick Bateman slayer character.


I can't afford the hardcover these days. In between jobs now so I gotta watch my spending. PDFs only for awhile.


Lemmy wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

If I get this book (and I probably will), you better build one of those! >:)

Screw that! Build one even if I don't get the book. :P

Funny enough I already have one of each in my character fold (and a shaman, bloodrager, brawler and swashbuckler), This sunday when I finally get back to the group, can I use one of them instead of the paladin?


VM mercenario wrote:
Funny enough I already have one of each in my character fold (and a shaman, bloodrager, brawler and swashbuckler), This sunday when I finally get back to the group, can I use one of them instead of the paladin?

Screw that! You can use two!


Mark Seifter wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
:shiver:
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?
Maybe if you use guns instead?
I can't risk that misfire chance. Only Stephen, as the designer of gunslingers, has the proper proficiencies to load one without the increased misfire rate, and he was out sick today.

I guess it would be a little much to expect a 10-foot pole to have taken levels in Gunslinger, huh?


K177Y C47 wrote:
Uncommoner wrote:
Hmmmmm, I get the sneaking suspicion I won't be seeing any more rangers or rogues in my games anymore..

well rangers still have uses. Some people liek the AC, and other people like the woodland feel. Also, spellcasting...

Rogues though... yeah....

For our games it will, most likely, replace rogue and fighter. But not the ranger.


Umbranus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Uncommoner wrote:
Hmmmmm, I get the sneaking suspicion I won't be seeing any more rangers or rogues in my games anymore..

well rangers still have uses. Some people liek the AC, and other people like the woodland feel. Also, spellcasting...

Rogues though... yeah....

For our games it will, most likely, replace rogue and fighter. But not the ranger.

well slayer himself will probably not completely replace the fighter. But between the barbarian, the ranger, the Cavalier, the brawler, and the slayer.... yeah...


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Maybe for about a year people will talk about the sad death of rogues and fighters but then unchained comes out and we get new rogues who phase through walls and fighters who can cut through space and time.


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Torbyne wrote:
Maybe for about a year people will talk about the sad death of rogues and fighters but then unchained comes out and we get new rogues who phase through walls and fighters who can cut through space and time.

I would be very happy to see fighters getting cool stuff.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Berselius wrote:
Oooo...I DO HOPE one of the 8 Archetypes is an Avenger-type Archetype (aka an assassin who works for a religious order).

Ooh, shades of Al-Qadim's Holy Slayers!

The Storm Which Destroys! The Wrath of the Old!

Holy Slayers of Pharasma, dedicated to not just putting down undead (that's for the clerics to do), but to killing the actual necromancers that raise them up, and, less boasted about, divine casters who defy the cycle of life and death by raising or resurrecting or reincarnating people excessively, or Thuvian alchemists who are part of the blasphemous elixir manufacturing process...

Holy Slayers of Nethys, who hunt down those who would persecute or outlaw the use of magic. They must be good at their jobs, as there aren't are multiple places that outlaw divine magic (Rahadoum, Touvette) or marginalize it (Razmiran, Hermea), but *nobody* outlaws arcane magic...

Any of the non-good gods could be fun to design Holy Slayer organizations for. Calistria? Oh yes, too easy. Gorum? Cowards and foes of using combat as a resolution. Cursed are the peacemakers, for they allow the smooth-tongued and weak to steal honor from the strong and brave, who would have righteously beaten them in a fair fight. Abadar? Vault-robbers and brigand warlords beware! Irori? Foes of self-improvement, such as slavers who those who keep their people uneducated? Gozreh? Enemies of the natural world, such as the leaders of the Lumber Consortium in Andoran.

Norgorber could have four different orders of Holy Slayers, based on his four aspects!


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So late to the party…. anyway…….

YISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

[for the improved action economy of Fav- Studied Target…]


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Odraude wrote:
El Ronza wrote:
So, the Slayer is basically the Angel of Death, capable of Raining Blood down on his Necrophobic enemies? Guess I need to look at the class Piece By Piece, lest I end up Criminally Insane from the awesome. The rogue has been Reborn, and I like it, though I foresee an Epidemic of slayers in PFS when the book is released. I guess the base rogue is Expendable Youth now, one of the Skeletons of Society. Well, I'm part of the New Faith here - I like this class, and all its Seven Faces, which will allow me to spread Hate Worldwide. Cast Down the nonbelievers, Spill the Blood, and may your slayers find Serenity in Murder. Just be careful - with all that killing, they're likely to end up somewhere South of Heaven...
Marry me.

I'm married to the metal. ;-)


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El Ronza wrote:
Odraude wrote:
El Ronza wrote:
So, the Slayer is basically the Angel of Death, capable of Raining Blood down on his Necrophobic enemies? Guess I need to look at the class Piece By Piece, lest I end up Criminally Insane from the awesome. The rogue has been Reborn, and I like it, though I foresee an Epidemic of slayers in PFS when the book is released. I guess the base rogue is Expendable Youth now, one of the Skeletons of Society. Well, I'm part of the New Faith here - I like this class, and all its Seven Faces, which will allow me to spread Hate Worldwide. Cast Down the nonbelievers, Spill the Blood, and may your slayers find Serenity in Murder. Just be careful - with all that killing, they're likely to end up somewhere South of Heaven...
Marry me.
I'm married to the metal. ;-)

\m/ >o< \m/


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Skalds and Slayers would get along beautifully don't you think?


I am looking forward to the Slayer along with the Investigator, Swashbuckler and Bloodrager. The bounty hunter archetype looks especially intriguing to me, I love my combat maneuvers. Sure there is satisfaction in taking mobs down quickly, but making their lives difficult by disarming them, throwing sand in their eyes and knocking them on their behind...that's a whole other level of satisfaction as far as I am concerned.

Liberty's Edge

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Skalds and Slayers would get along beautifully don't you think?

Yep. And not just because of the heavy metal reference, the mechanics synch up very well, too. Stacking Rage on top of a Slayer is very nice and the two combined can take care of pretty much all of your skill needs, plus many (if not most) of the utility spells you'll find useful as well.

Lantern Lodge

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Secane wrote:

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?

Ranger is still very useful, and overall, actually more powerful than Slayers.

Fighter has always been underwhelming and Rogue were made obsolete before you even reached their chapter in the CRB.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)

Um .... ;)


Marc Radle wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
Weeellll .... ;)

Well, yeah... Not counting 3pp, that is.


Ventnor wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
:shiver:
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?
Maybe if you use guns instead?
I can't risk that misfire chance. Only Stephen, as the designer of gunslingers, has the proper proficiencies to load one without the increased misfire rate, and he was out sick today.
I guess it would be a little much to expect a 10-foot pole to have taken levels in Gunslinger, huh?

How about a swing trap that hits people coming thru the door with a 10 foot pole?

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Secane wrote:

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?

Ranger is still very useful, and overall, actually more powerful than Slayers.

Fighter has always been underwhelming and Rogue were made obsolete before you even reached their chapter in the CRB.

Mostly this.

Though I'd argue it was actually the APG that really made Rogues completely obsolete. They at least had Trapfinding as their exclusive right before that...it wasn't much but it was something. And Fighter's been pretty much obsolete at least as long as that (Barbarian and Ranger both got much better in the APG...while Fighter didn't, and wasn't really on par even before that). That's nitpicking more than disagreement, though.


Secane wrote:

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?

If they do not recive some REALLY good options, then yes.

Lantern Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Secane wrote:

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?

Ranger is still very useful, and overall, actually more powerful than Slayers.

Fighter has always been underwhelming and Rogue were made obsolete before you even reached their chapter in the CRB.

Mostly this.

Though I'd argue it was actually the APG that really made Rogues completely obsolete. They at least had Trapfinding as their exclusive right before that...it wasn't much but it was something. And Fighter's been pretty much obsolete at least as long as that (Barbarian and Ranger both got much better in the APG...while Fighter didn't, and wasn't really on par even before that). That's nitpicking more than disagreement, though.

Humm... I feel I should clarify my original question as I have played and played with good fighter and rogue characters.

By relevant, I mean it in a why would players still want to play these core classes? When there are much better and similar themed options out there?

It is not as if the core classes are flawed or are unusable options.
The Fighter and Rogue can work fine in a game, but it seems like the advanced Classes can do it much BETTER.

Shouldn't the newer classes be made to complement the core classes? And not over-shadow them?


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Secane wrote:


Shouldn't the newer classes be made to complement the core classes? And not over-shadow them?

Only if the Core classes they're overshadowing aren't garbage. Which the Fighter and Rogue are.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

Kalvit wrote:
... I know some people will recreate an adorably psychotic Cleaner from a certain series.

Yep, he was one of the inspirations for the cleaner archetype. Also, I think the iconic should look exactly like Harvey Keitel, but that's just me. ;-)


5 people marked this as a favorite.

The Slayer isn't balanced against the Fighter and the Rogue because the Fighter and the Rogue are the worst classes in the game by a longshot. The Slayer is balanced against the Alchemist, Inquisitor, Ranger, Bard, etc.

The Slayer needs to overshadow the Rogue and Fighter, otherwise it's just a waste of text. The Fighter being bad doesn't mean that every other martial that comes after has to be bad, too.


Berselius wrote:
Oooo...I DO HOPE one of the 8 Archetypes is an Avenger-type Archetype (aka an assassin who works for a religious order).

There was a Sanctified Slayer in the list posted by Jason Bulmahn, which I'm betting is what you might be looking for (it's one I'm keeping my eyes peeled for, at least- I have a Slayer/Inquisitor character right now that it might be perfect for.)

Lantern Lodge

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Really? I always thought that the fighter works fine... the rogue could be a little weak at times, but I have seen some scary fighters.

Like a pure crit fighter that was downing the entire room of mons. (The scary part was that is was build with just the CRB, only his weapon was from UE.)

Or the Fighter Archer, which could be mainly due to how powerful archery is and fighter gives it all the extra feats it needs to be scary.


Secane wrote:
Really? I always thought that the fighter works fine...

Fighters works "fine" at low to the beginning of mid levels if the level of optimization is not that high.

They have the AC and the DPR to kill things. But that is it.

However, others classes can do that too, and have more things on top.

For examples as peopel have pointed, it is not like the salayer is putting the ranger to a shame. Or a barbarian, or a paladin.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Secane wrote:

Humm... I feel I should clarify my original question as I have played and played with good fighter and rogue characters.

By relevant, I mean it in a why would players still want to play these core classes? When there are much better and similar themed options out there?

This is not a new problem. There's already really no reason to play a Rogue rather than an Urban Ranger, Archaeologist Bard, or Trapbreaker Vivisectionist Alchemist, for example.

Secane wrote:

It is not as if the core classes are flawed or are unusable options.

The Fighter and Rogue can work fine in a game, but it seems like the advanced Classes can do it much BETTER.

So can a Ranger, Paladin, or Barbarian. Or the ones I list above. Every objective analysis people do says that Slayer is slightly worse than Ranger, mechanically speaking...how much worse would it need to be for you to feel it wasn't overshadowing things?

Secane wrote:
Shouldn't the newer classes be made to complement the core classes? And not over-shadow them?

"Less powerful than a Ranger" seems to fall very thoroughly into this description actually. Trying not to overshadow Fighter and Rogue results in classes that are no good to basically anyone.

Secane wrote:

Really? I always thought that the fighter works fine... the rogue could be a little weak at times, but I have seen some scary fighters.

Like a pure crit fighter that was downing the entire room of mons. (The scary part was that is was build with just the CRB, only his weapon was from UE.)

Or the Fighter Archer, which could be mainly due to how powerful archery is and fighter gives it all the extra feats it needs to be scary.

Fighter does damage pretty effectively. Its issue is that, unlike every other class there is, it does absolutely nothing else (with the exception of decent AC, I guess). Even Barbarians can manage good saves and a decent skill selection, plus Spell Sunder and Pounce...Fighters just deal damage. They have no saves, no utility options, no nothing. Unlike every other Class that can pretty much equal them in damage, they have nothing else.

Paizo Employee Designer

Kyle '88 wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


I can't risk that misfire chance. Only Stephen, as the designer of gunslingers, has the proper proficiencies to load one without the increased misfire rate, and he was out sick today.

I guess it would be a little much to expect a 10-foot pole to have taken levels in Gunslinger, huh?
How about a swing trap that hits people coming thru the door with a 10 foot pole?

I considered that, but then I've knocked him prone, but he's still blocking the exit to the office, and presumably he's still holding onto his weapons. I'd have to move through his square to get out, since the door isn't high enough to leap one square up and over him (plus even if it was, I wouldn't trust myself to make a DC 20 Acrobatics check), and so that would require a pretty tough Acrobatics check to pull off. Now if it swung and knocked him into a pit trap, that would be different, but I don't think I'm going to get permission to dig a pit in there.

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