Advanced Class Guide Preview: Warpriest

Tuesday, June 17, 2014


Illustration by Subroto Bhaumik

Many years ago, back in the days of the Advanced Player's Guide, there were plans to open up the paladin class to characters of any alignment. Unfortunately, the constraints of the class and its many alignment-based abilities made it too much of a challenge to fit in the pages of that book. Fortunately, the Advanced Class Guide gave us the opportunity to revisit the idea in the form of the Warpriest.

Blending together the powers of the fighter and the cleric, the warpriest is a class that allows you to represent the ideals of your deity, but to back them up with cold, hard steel. The class had 6 levels of divine spellcasting, combined with an ability called blessings that work like domains, but grant combat focused abilities. It seemed like a perfect blend, but the first version of the class that we put forth to playtest did not go over very well. The powers and abilities, as initially designed, just did not give the player enough martial ability to get the job done. It had some the spellcasting and some of the combat skill, but the two just did not work well together as initially presented. Fortunately, in round 2 of the playtest, we got it right (or maybe a bit too right). We added an ability called fervor that allows the warpriest to channel energy to heal his allies similar to a paladin's lay on hands, but it also could be spent to cast warpriest spells as a swift action, as long as those spells only targeted the warpriest. We also changed an ability called sacred weapon, which allows the warpriest to designate a weapon (or the favored weapon of his deity) and use that weapon to greater effect, increasing the damage and attack bonus.

Unfortunately, that caused a bit of a problem. The class was a bit too good.

The second round of playtest showed us some really interesting data. Everyone seemed in love with the class, which is certainly good, but our surveys also showed us that the class was now at the top of the power curve. After a number of internal playtests, it became clear that attacking with the full attack bonus of a fighter, combined with swift-casting a number of "buff" spells made the class a juggernaut. Since we really liked how the fervor mechanic worked, the sacred weapon rules had to change. Sacred weapon still increases the damage of weapons and it can still be used to grant special abilities to the weapon, but it no longer increases the attack bonus of the warpriest when using the designated weapon. Just like that, everything seemed to fit.

We also took another look at a wide number of the blessings, bringing them all in line with one another and making them a more seamless part of the class. Take the community blessing for example. The major version of the blessing did not fit really well and was outright useless to a warpriest of Erastil. It got changed to the following.

Fight as One (major): At 10th level, you can rally your allies to fight together. For 1 minute, whenever you make a successful melee or ranged attack against a foe, allies within 10 feet of you gain a +2 insight bonus on attacks of the same type you made against that foe—melee attacks if you made a melee attack, or ranged attacks if you made a ranged attack. If you score a critical hit, this bonus increases to +4 until the start of your next turn.

There are a lot of other exciting changes in the blessings as well, but for those, you will have to wait until the book arrives in stores and at Gencon in mid-August. Come back on Thursday to unleash your inner rage, now improved with magic!

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Igor Grechanyi Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Warpriest
301 to 350 of 1,041 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Without the BAB this doesn't have the baseline combat capability of a ranger or paladin, making it yet another feast or famine class. Having lost the defining feature of the fighter it's going to be too close to the cleric, especially with the inquisitor also sitting in the same design space.

I am no longer interested in this class. The design space is too crowded and the only thing that set it apart has been removed. If there isn't a full suite of alignment paladin archetypes to justify not moving it into that less crowded design space I'm going to be very disappointed.

So far all the previews have been bad news, though. The warpriest further crowds the already full design space of medium BAB semimartial god botherers and the investigator doesn't get his combat mechanic for three whole levels.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

No Charisma dependency? Use level as BAB for feat requirements? Okay, now I'm excited.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Atarlost wrote:

Without the BAB this doesn't have the baseline combat capability of a ranger or paladin, making it yet another feast or famine class. Having lost the defining feature of the fighter it's going to be too close to the cleric, especially with the inquisitor also sitting in the same design space.

I am no longer interested in this class. The design space is too crowded and the only thing that set it apart has been removed. If there isn't a full suite of alignment paladin archetypes to justify not moving it into that less crowded design space I'm going to be very disappointed.

So far all the previews have been bad news, though. The warpriest further crowds the already full design space of medium BAB semimartial god botherers and the investigator doesn't get his combat mechanic for three whole levels.

Letting the WP level count as fighter for bonus feats is nice, looking at a mounted charger build i see that as a nice +6 damage early on with weapon specialization and spirit charge. So i cant pull off impressive full attacks, i think i am still seeing potential in the class for an awesome character who is different enough from the other 3/4 BAB classes. Its just not the same character i was looking at before the blog post.


Jason, I hope you get to feeling better!


Zark wrote:
Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
I'm wondering now if someone from the office contacted him at home and told him he had a fire to put out on the forums...

I hope not. That would be awful. When you are sick you need your rest. I really hope Paizo isn’t that kind of an employer.

Not sure about the Paizo end of things, but I did post on his Facebook that he got to look forward to all of the Warpriest posts once he comes back to work. So maybe that clued him in?


*looks for a countdown clock for the next guide*

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Guess I'd better put away my "Jump to Conclusions (TM)" matt :-(


Kieviel wrote:
Guess I'd better put away my "Jump to Conclusions (TM)" matt :-(

Boo, boo wendy testaburger. Boo.

Shadow Lodge

I don't know. I guess I'm back in the "maybe it's okay" category (with the emphasis on "maybe" and "ok"). While removing Cha is great on one hand, it worsens another big problem that kept popping up.

Helps with the super MAD part of the class, but the other is that skills for the Warpriest absolutely just suck, and without Cha, it pretty much now assures that the Warpriest has nothing at all to do outside of combat. Unless the class also comes with 4+ Int, some Use Wis instead of ______ or add 1/2 class level to _____ skills, and uses Wis to Channel it looks like it traded one bad thing for another bad thing, and which is worse is subjective.

@Jason:
I also hope you are feeling better, and honestly hope they didn't call you back from home for this.


"War"priest. I'm certain that as long as it does well in combat it has achieved it's dreams.


Besides, if they wanted to be a holy warrior who is also skilled, the Inquisitor also has swift action limited times per day self buffing in the forms of Bane and Judgement. And 6/9 spellcasting. And medium armor proficiency. You will still be fighty, just way more skilled.


..........WHERE IS THE BLOODRAGER!?!?!?!


Raging bloodily across the street?


DM Beckett wrote:

I don't know. I guess I'm back in the "maybe it's okay" category (with the emphasis on "maybe" and "ok"). While removing Cha is great on one hand, it worsens another big problem that kept popping up.

Helps with the super MAD part of the class, but the other is that skills for the Warpriest absolutely just suck, and without Cha, it pretty much now assures that the Warpriest has nothing at all to do outside of combat. Unless the class also comes with 4+ Int, some Use Wis instead of ______ or add 1/2 class level to _____ skills, and uses Wis to Channel it looks like it traded one bad thing for another bad thing, and which is worse is subjective.

** spoiler omitted **

Except using the best reactive spell list in the game, yea, I guess he doesn't have much to do. Except priestly duties.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

I don't know. I guess I'm back in the "maybe it's okay" category (with the emphasis on "maybe" and "ok"). While removing Cha is great on one hand, it worsens another big problem that kept popping up.

Helps with the super MAD part of the class, but the other is that skills for the Warpriest absolutely just suck, and without Cha, it pretty much now assures that the Warpriest has nothing at all to do outside of combat. Unless the class also comes with 4+ Int, some Use Wis instead of ______ or add 1/2 class level to _____ skills, and uses Wis to Channel it looks like it traded one bad thing for another bad thing, and which is worse is subjective.

** spoiler omitted **

Except using the best reactive spell list in the game, yea, I guess he doesn't have much to do. Except priestly duties.

It's too bad Wisdom isn't tied to some of the most useful skills in the game and that the cleric spell list doesn't include handy spells that boost or replace your skills.

....

Wait a minute...


With the extra changes listed from Jason, I think the loss of "full BAB" (which, as far as I know, still remains their level 20 Capstone ability) in exchange for becoming less MAD (no need for Charisma, thankfully) and getting other goodies (swift-spells, expanded feat qualifications) makes it a fair enough trade, since any BAB he would lose is compensated from his Bonus Feats, and being less MAD makes him able to maximize Strength without having to compensate too much Wisdom (a 16 is all he really needs, especially if you only need it for healing/buffs).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
havoc xiii wrote:
So the question remains why don't we wait to see what the actual class looks like before crying about the collapsing sky?

Leaving aside the fact that I haven't really seen any posters "cry about the collapsing sky" and I find your tone both unnecessarily dismissive and frankly a little offensive, people stating that they're worried or concerned about the WP based on the original blog post meant Paizo (represented by Jason) realized that the original blog post was a bit too focused on the negative changes, and we got additional spoilers to help assuage our fears.

Paizo publishes the previews to get people excited about the ACG and the new classes. If the preview leaves a lot of people thinking "wow... Sounds like that class is gonna suck" then it probably didn't quite hit the right note. And since I firmly believe Jason wouldn't let the Warpriest suck, I don't think that was his intent.

Different example, similar situation: As a European, I'm mostly ignorant when it comes to american football - very recently I learned that the Washington Redskins is a football team. If someone were to say "I HATE the redskins" to me two weeks ago, I might have thought that he was making a (very) racist statement about native Americans. At that point I could either ask him to clarify the statement/tell him that I find the statement distressing (most likely resolving the conflict immediately when he explains the difference), or simply do nothing, think he's an a%+%+$# and never talk to him again.

Generally speaking, it's better to try and solve the confusion straight away instead of letting it fester.


Less MADness? Fighter feats and BAB is equal to level for feats? Charisma is never mentioned in the Warpriest?

Golden.

I'll dig it. Especially if Blessings are better.

Curious about archetype support. Nabbing Smite *blank* in exchange for Sacred Weapon(entirely) would be awesome love to the Alignment Free Paladin lovers.


Scavion wrote:

Less MADness? Fighter feats and BAB is equal to level for feats? Charisma is never mentioned in the Warpriest?

Golden.

I'll dig it. Especially if Blessings are better.

Curious about archetype support. Nabbing Smite *blank* in exchange for Sacred Weapon(entirely) would be awesome love to the Alignment Free Paladin lovers.

I dunno, Sacred Weapon could also be replaced with paladin's Divine Bond, which is a better version of it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I love the artwork. It is very reminiscent of that classic bit of comic books artwork Spiderwoman in space!


Scavion wrote:
Curious about archetype support. Nabbing Smite *blank* in exchange for Sacred Weapon(entirely) would be awesome love to the Alignment Free Paladin lovers.

I can definitely see a Warpriest "paladin-esque" archetype, but in that case I'd definitely change the spellcasting attribute to Charisma. There was quite a bit of support for a charisma-based Warpriest in the feedback threads for people who wanted as paladin-esque a class as possible.

That said, if Paizo still intend to make the alignment-free paladins the blog post hinted at the archetype might step on some toes.


Kudaku wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Curious about archetype support. Nabbing Smite *blank* in exchange for Sacred Weapon(entirely) would be awesome love to the Alignment Free Paladin lovers.

I can definitely see a Warpriest "paladin-esque" archetype, but in that case I'd definitely change the spellcasting attribute to Charisma. There was quite a bit of support for a charisma-based Warpriest in the feedback threads for people who wanted as paladin-esque a class as possible.

That said, if Paizo still intend to make the alignment-free paladins the blog post hinted at the archetype might step on some toes.

I'm fairly certain they backpedaled on the alignment-free paladins, so for me atleast, I'd like a Paladin-lite in the Warpriest through an archetype.


I'm speculating that the Champion of the Faith archetype from the list Jason spoiled last month will be a more Paladin-style Warpriest archetype. Sacred Fist may be another shot at getting Monk/Cleric to work.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm praying that at least one Warpriest Archetype allows for weapon training.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

WHERE IS THE NEXT ICONIC?!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I keep refreshing but it's not showing up...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm eagerly awaiting the next Iconic as well. I was looking forward to having something to read when I got home from work today.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You don't get his backstory, but if you download the pregens for Risen from the Sands, you can see who the newest Iconic is, at least mechanically.

Spoiler:
Crowe, the CN Shoanti Bloodrager, with the Elemental (Air) bloodline.


Kvantum wrote:

You don't get his backstory, but if you download the pregens for Risen from the Sands, you can see who the newest Iconic is, at least mechanically.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah thankies for the tip.

Spoiler:
Wowzas, an earthbreaker wielding Bloodrager who worships Desna?!? Now I'm actually interested in reading about him.


dude... Jason, those spoilers... you are the bomb! Glad you got better, and thanks for the good news on the warpriest! it was easily my most anticipated class of the book, and it looks like my dream of getting a warrior priest class that's not tethered to being LG will finally come true, Desna truly showers us with her blessing!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Glad i got a lot of use out of that umbrella. People just need to be patient, really.


A big part of this could have easily been avoided by leading with the major beneficial improvements such as eliminating CHA and the bonus feat thing. Instead, what we got was a very specific nerf announcement with some vague allusions to blessing improvements. When framed like that, I don't think it is unusual for people to get soured easily.


Not that the further clarifications are not appreciated, of course. All I'm saying is don't be surprised at a feeding frenzy when you throw blood in the water.

Silver Crusade

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kryptik wrote:
Not that the further clarifications are not appreciated, of course. All I'm saying is don't be surprised at a feeding frenzy when you throw blood in the water.

Yeah. I think we all should pray and thank for the fact that nobody drove over to Paizo HQ with a shotgun and didn't exercise his/her God-given right of customer outrage in a more serious manner. I mean, that was so close.


Suma3da wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Huh. I like this guy.


Bullet dodged!

Back on topic- the iconic warpriest from Risen Sands looks like quite the bruiser!


Hang on - if it is now 3/4 BAB, is the attendant HD d8??? Or are these "classes formerly known as hybrids" still hybrid?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Hang on - if it is now 3/4 BAB, is the attendant HD d8??? Or are these "classes formerly known as hybrids" still hybrid?

Looking at the Pregens:

Bloodrager - d10
Investigator - d8
Swashbuckler - d10
Warpriest - d8

Liberty's Edge

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Hang on - if it is now 3/4 BAB, is the attendant HD d8??? Or are these "classes formerly known as hybrids" still hybrid?

Uh...Warpriests have always had d8 hit dice.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well then, what are people so upset about the loss of Full BAB (real or pseudo) for?!?

Liberty's Edge

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Well then, what are people so upset about the loss of Full BAB (real or pseudo) for?!?

Because it had it at one point, and it was (in some people's opinion) one of the better class features. Think how people would freak if the Monk lost Flurry of Blows and gained nothing in return.

And it was pseudo BAB, for the record.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Well then, what are people so upset about the loss of Full BAB (real or pseudo) for?!?

During the playtest it was actually the Warpriest's strongest class feature. I consider it so because it gave the warpriest better power attack scaling and number of attacks.

Using playtestV2 I would have traded out blessings, sacred armor, and the round/level sacred weapon just to keep it.

Since they kept those and dropped his best feature I hope they actually:
1. Actually buffed blessings in a meaningful way
2. Made Sacred Armor and Sacred weapon use the same swift action
3. Made Sacred weapon last a minute per use


No new Iconic blog post?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Insain Dragoon wrote:


Using playtestV2 I would have traded out blessings, sacred armor, and the round/level sacred weapon just to keep it.

Which is an amazing argument for why it had to go: It was too good. Well said, even if unintentionally.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Insain Dragoon wrote:


Using playtestV2 I would have traded out blessings, sacred armor, and the round/level sacred weapon just to keep it.

Wouldn't that be a fighter with six levels of spellcasting?

1/3 of bonus feats for 6-level casting is not a fair trade.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there Folks,

As someone here pointed out, I have been out sick with a cold for the past couple of days and did not respond to this thread (or any other for the purpose). Now that I am back, I want to address a few concerns.

1. When it came to this class, we enhanced a number of its abilities (namely blessings and fervor), but that combined with the sacred weapon ability made it just a bit too good. A lot of our play test feedback was pointing in that direction already and we just could not see a way for that to be lessened by giving the class more benefits, so we decided we needed to scale something back. In the end, the enhanced weapon damage seemed like a more unique and interesting ability that the increased BAB.

2. Its clear to me now that I perhaps should have spent a bit more time in the blog pointing out some of the cool factors... so I will just say this. The word "Charisma" appears precisely zero times in the Warpriest now. 0.

3. Folks need to calm it down a bit. Preview blogs are supposed to tease you and leave you wanting to see more. They are not definitive. I realize that this had a bit of bad news in it, but I think you will find that some of the other enhancements have made the class fun and allow it to sit in its own framework (as opposed to stepping all over the fighter, cleric, or paladin). Not everyone will agree, but a preview is not really the place to make grand pronouncements based on only 1 or 2 data points.

Thanks everybody, keep it civil.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

The problem is that swift action casting is barred by swift action domain powers.

Which is good because quicken spell gives regular clerics this ability.

Everything about this class screams "Bad cleric" without the psudo full BAB.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:


Using playtestV2 I would have traded out blessings, sacred armor, and the round/level sacred weapon just to keep it.
Which is an amazing argument for why it had to go: It was too good. Well said, even if unintentionally.

:P

So people enjoying something and not caring for other things is a good reason to get rid of it?


Undone wrote:

The problem is that swift action casting is barred by swift action domain powers.

Which is good because quicken spell gives regular clerics this ability.

The warpriest's ability doesn't increase the spell level by four spell levels. This means that the war priest can cast things like Divine Power as a swift action 5 levels before the Cleric can, to say nothing of using up higher spell level slots.

One of the biggest issues with Clerics is that they need to buff up to be able to fight well. And the optimal number of rounds to buff is 2 or 3, due to all the standard action spells they need to cast. Sure, they can pick and choose the spells to get the most bang for their buck, but the warpriest doesn't necessarily have to. And instead of waiting until level 9 to be able to do a swift action spell and a standard action spell in the same round, the warpriest can do that from level 1. It's barely worthwhile to cast divine favor as a cleric if you can't prebuff

The ability to buff while smashing face and not using up your higher spell slots is tremendously powerful, and is exactly the thing clerics want.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

You can't use all your powers the same round, Undone. That's deliberate.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
DM Beckett wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:


Using playtestV2 I would have traded out blessings, sacred armor, and the round/level sacred weapon just to keep it.
Which is an amazing argument for why it had to go: It was too good. Well said, even if unintentionally.

:P

So people enjoying something and not caring for other things is a good reason to get rid of it?

If someone says that they'd trade a limb for something, that usually means the something was pretty good. Not that the limb was worthless.

301 to 350 of 1,041 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / Paizo Blog: Advanced Class Guide Preview: Warpriest All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.