Ratfolk and Catfolk and Race Boons Oh My

Why do you feel compelled to send race boons out in the first place?

If this is a reaction to the numerous threads complaining about convention boons being unfair, then sending out boons using a lottery system would only generate more complaints from those who think it unfair.

If you really want to distribute race boons through non-convention means, and not have complaints, then the way to do it is to have a method in which participants "earn" the boon, and that method needs to be freely accessible.

Such as by playing X number of games within time period Y, or by earning a certain number of fame for their faction, or GMing a certain number of games.

You don't see anyone complaining about the GM star system, because players can freely choose to earn their stars. The key here is accessiblity.

-Matt

As an organizer of a weekly game night and a frequent PFS DM my primary concern would be that like the recent Way of the Kirin this would be challenging for some folks to get a chance to play in time - if their usual group schedules games a month or two in advance it can be harder to get DMs and players for a new scenario. With Way of the Kirin I won't have a pc in the right range to play and I may not be able to schedule the scenario to run it before Gencon to qualify for the special boon.

For a chance at a race boon I'd suggest:

- if you want to use this method at least give more than a month to get it played by (I'd suggest at least two or better yet three month especially if people have to take a break over the summer)

- consider offering the boon in waves. Ie everyone who plays or DMs it by a given time gets a chance at it - then everyone who plays or runs it the following six months etc gets another shot?

In general I like race boons for the chance to play different characters (looking forward to my second Nagaji PFS character in fact)

I like this idea.

I like it even more if it lets my girlfriend obtain a Ratfolk boon. She loves rats and is disappointed that they are generally portrayed as villains and scoundrels. I think that someone needs to show PFS what civilized, intelligent rats are really like so that this "racism" does not become the norm. :-)

That would be amazingly cool.

And encourage people to report.

I applaud the method of 'opening up' boons for players who don't win one at conventions.

That said, I think a 'better way' would be to tie a boon to a series of scenarios, played in order.

For a hypothetical example...

If there were a series of scenarios involving dealing with duergar, and involving faction missions dealing with not killing the duergar and finding a faction wanting to leave Droskar, then playing all those scenarios (with whatever other conditions were/are attached) would 'unlock' a one off duergar boon. Say 3-4 scenarios at least.

Depending on development overlap with the campaign setting, it would also allow the development of those other races.

(Of course I still want to play a kayal, but that's beside the point.)

The more I 'think and type' this would also have the advantage of not opening the floodgates, as people fear. I know some people go right to the aasimar/tiefling, for example, because they're seen as 'better' than the core races. I can right now make the kayal character I want with a tiefling, for example but I want kayal for the flavor. Likewise, the 'linked scenario' idea would a) allow everyone an equal shot, and b) limit the characters to two per player at most (much like the Axebeak/Faerie Dragon/whatever else I've not seen yet boons out there). One for playing, one for GMing. If the scenarios had to be played in order, for one PC, it raises the bar again.

Again, thank you Mike for looking at ways of 'opening up' the races.

I think this idea sounds swell! Thanks for listening!

I also like Rycaut's idea of offering the boon in waves. Maybe something like a 10% chance to get the boon if a scenario is played in the first month, and a 5% chance six months after the scenario was released? That would give at least some chance of getting a boon for players who are not able to play things right away.

Yeah, ratfolk! Loved them in Season 3.

I think a lottery system is just asking for more hurt feelings.

I think a better way would be to have some extra victory condition, such as "Kill the bad guy AND save all the ratfolk hostages before they're sacrificed," or "Stop the crime spree AND publicly clear the name of the local catfolk." This way it would be available for anyone who played to earn it, but not everyone would succeed. And of course, you automatically get it if you GM the scenario. That way, if you absolutely HAVE to have it, you have a way that doesn't rely on blind luck.

Race boons should totally be tied to messageboard post count.

;)

I have been wanting to play a ratfolk alchemist/ninja so bad!

I like the lottery idea.

To continue opening up races. Let me suggest an idea looking forward to season 5.

If you are a player or a GM. If you either play or GM every season five scenario before the start of season six. You will have sent to your account a unique race boon. Only for that season never released again.

We could also add that if you GM all of season 5 the boon becomes better, if you play all and GM all it becomes better still.

This could be advertised well in advance.

I think this would increase attendance and help recruit GM's like crazy.

For example a Kobold, if you GM you get a +2 stat. If you GM and Play both you could get simple celestial of fiendish template.

What about implementing a 'meta' prestige/fame system similar to the one for player characters, but in this case make it for players.

Allow players to accumulate points similar to the way you count GM tables for GM stars, then allow players to spend there prestige to buy boons that have been unlocked by their fame tier.

So maybe the Kitsune boon becomes available after 20 life time points, and it costs 10. Limits the total number of the varied races by making it an expendable player level resource, but makes it open and fair.

If you do X you get Y, not you "might" get Y.

You can still give away the same boons that they might buy, so con attendance gets a chance at a perk, but a perk you can still earn.

I think this whole thing could quickly become a management nightmare for folks who don't report online, but I guess it could be a perk of online reporting?

Additionally, it would be good if a player forced to replay a scenario for no credit (do to shortage of players to fill extra tables) still gets the player fame so that they are incentivized to stay and fill out the table.

As a final though as a local organizer always challenged to find GMs, perhaps GMs get 2 per module?

Anything that increases the number or breadth of race boons available is a bad thing in my book. IMHO, they degrade the play experience.

I have always felt that there needed to be an incentive to report. Some people just don't care for the "good of PFS" reason given. Having the chance to gain a boon that is based off of reported play will give players a big incentive to pester their GMs/Coordinators to report.

I am all for ideas like this! The closer we can get the reported data to reflect reality of PFS play, the better it will be.

What about implementing a 'meta' prestige/fame system similar to the one for player characters, but in this case make it for players.

Allow players to accumulate points similar to the way you count GM tables for GM stars, then allow players to spend there prestige to buy boons that have been unlocked by their fame tier.

So maybe the Kitsune boon becomes available after 20 life time points, and it costs 10. Limits the total number of the varied races by making it an expendable player level resource, but makes it open and fair.

If you do X you get Y, not you "might" get Y.

You can still give away the same boons that they might buy, so con attendance gets a chance at a perk, but a perk you can still earn.

I think this whole thing could quickly become a management nightmare for folks who don't report online, but I guess it could be a perk of online reporting?

Additionally, it would be good if a player forced to replay a scenario for no credit (do to shortage of players to fill extra tables) still gets the player fame so that they are incentivized to stay and fill out the table.

As a final though as a local organizer always challenged to find GMs, perhaps GMs get 2 per module?

I think something along this line would be great. You could still stick to the 10% guideline and take out the blind luck aspect.

Create a star system like the GMs have. 10 sessions gives you one star. Which gives you access to tier 1 star boons.
This requires people to put in the time and effort to get the boons yet takes away from the luck. It gives something else for people to strive for and something else for people to collect. It rewards people for being consistent contributors to society.

Everyone wins.

For people who don't like the lottery system:

If we think that at cons people get a prize 10% of the time, what about making it so that every 10 games reported with your PFS number, you get a boon sent in the mail? This boon could be anything from a race to a weapon training boon, just like at a con, randomly determined by a program on mike's side.

This would allow for less randomness in the "I may play a game the month it is out 100 times, and still get nothing" that a lot of people hate. Since of course, with the proposed system lucky people could also play twice the whole summer and get two boons.

The discussion on what the Boon should be ( race or another) and the system thru wich give them ( personnally i think a merit method is the best) , will be , as always , long.
So let me just say , on behalf of all the Organizers/GM/Players from far away places that don´t have the means ( financial or otherwise) to attend the BIG CON´s , THANK YOU for at least giving us the chance to get this Boons that otherwise we would never get , not because we aren´t good players , but because we simply are from outside the "major playing centers ".
As to the new tool you have, it seems awesome , and the benefits could be great for your "thought process" in the future , besides the chance to get instant access and feedback to data from the Campaign ( wich , let´s face it , you MUST have).

How does this bring GM´s to report more of their games?

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I don't like non-Core races. It was hard enough running a serious game before the circus came to town. People are going to complain no matter what you do. Golarion has always been a humanocentric campaign world. The one thing that I like is linking the race boons to reporting. Just make the requirement for the reward justifiably difficult. When does the Aspis Consortium organized play campaign begin? I'm in.

Having the chance to gain a boon that is based off of reported play will give players a big incentive to pester their GMs/Coordinators to report.

While this is true and needs to be done, I am weary of a system that depends on the GMs/Coordinators reporting for you to get something.

And for the record, the issue Doug brings up is a separate one but I agree as well. I'm in general against non-core races. But I am all in favor of rewarding non-con goers.

A small percentage of people who go to cons is a VERY small percentage compared to the rest of the PFS OP. Opening it up to everyone for simple things like "play this now and play this often" is going to cause a HUGE explosion in the number of boons given out. So even if you open it up and have a tiny percentage lottery, people will still complain for being left out.

Honestly, leave 'em for the cons and special events. If people play for the boons, they play for the wrong reasons and possibly shouldn't play at all. My 2cp worth.

When does the Aspis Consortium organized play campaign begin? I'm in.

Oh god yes! I just played a scenario where you have to pose as asp is consortium and accept a mission from one of their contacts. The whole time I was imagining an asp is consortium campaign where we aren't trying to make them look like a bunch of inept losers.

I have mixed feelings about race boons. Some I am fine with, like tieflings and aasimars. Some modules sort of lose their luster with a party full of exotic creatures. Like a certain module involving a circus wouldn't seem that exciting if everyone was either an outsider or some weird humanoid.

I like the idea of drawing from a pool. Perhaps you could take it a step further though and develop a system to award points for playing and you can then spend these points on boons rather than doing a lottery.

Honestly I think the better option would be to stop giving out race boons entirely. When I sit at tables and I am playing the only core race it just feels wrong, there are not that many aasimars and tieflings in the world. Yet I run into them more often then all the core races except humans.

I would be ok if you tie them as a reward to supporting the campaign. Say you GM or report X number of scenarios in the previous season. That would earn you a race boon(choose from list). Then we have a set number of non core races in the world. Could even split it up by region on what list of races they get to choose from.

I like the idea. It is an extra something nice for the players and the GMs. Those who play a lot will have a better chance of receiving something. Those who play infrequently might receive something which could encourage them to play or GM more. It sounds like a low cost and fun solution.

I think that this is a win across the board. I do not see that the playerbase should have any reason to complain. It is like someone buying you a free lottery ticket.If you win, great. If you do not, it did not cost you anything.

I like the idea of a window of 3 to 4 months to qualify for a chance to receive the boon. I like the idea of a greater chance for playing the scenario earlier in the window. Maybe something like 10% month 1, 10% month 2, 5% month 3 and 5% month 4. It could also be something like 15%/10%/10%/5% or 20%/15%/10%/5%.

How would the boons be distributed? Would they be sent to each GM and player via their e-mail address listed on their Paizo account? Would they be put in their downloads page like the Emerald Elixir boon from the kickstarter? Would these boons somehow be watermarked or contain the player's/GM's PFS number so as to prevent boon trading?

Hypothetical situation: I'd love to see a Season 5 three-scenario arc that if someone played each of them within a month of their release dates, then they are sent a thematic race boon. That ties rewards to playing PFS in season and keeps them to those willing to put in a little bit of effort.

Or maybe that's how you enter someone into the lottery, if we don't want to dilute the pool with too many boons.

What about implementing a 'meta' prestige/fame system similar to the one for player characters, but in this case make it for players.

Allow players to accumulate points similar to the way you count GM tables for GM stars, then allow players to spend there prestige to buy boons that have been unlocked by their fame tier.

So maybe the Kitsune boon becomes available after 20 life time points, and it costs 10. Limits the total number of the varied races by making it an expendable player level resource, but makes it open and fair.

If you do X you get Y, not you "might" get Y.

You can still give away the same boons that they might buy, so con attendance gets a chance at a perk, but a perk you can still earn.

I think this whole thing could quickly become a management nightmare for folks who don't report online, but I guess it could be a perk of online reporting?

Additionally, it would be good if a player forced to replay a scenario for no credit (do to shortage of players to fill extra tables) still gets the player fame so that they are incentivized to stay and fill out the table.

As a final though as a local organizer always challenged to find GMs, perhaps GMs get 2 per module?

I love this idea, but it would probably be a huge pain to implement. If they could pull it off, though, it would be very cool!

I'd like to have several gamers in my area have the same opportunity to gain racial boons like those going to conventions. While personally I'd rather not have to worry about non-core races while running scenarios at game days, I know that some gamers love the idea of the more unusual races.

The 10% chance for getting a race boon during a set period sounds good, but some player's may not like it as it lacks the feeling of being rewarded vesus the feeling of just being lucky.

I like the idea of earning boons based on a "Player Stars" system, a take on the GM Stars, which rewards playing and would make player feel that they're earning more opportunities during play.

I LOVE the idea of giving boons online. I don't think it should be a big chance of getting race boons, however. Give a variety of boons, with one or two race boons thrown in, like at cons.

I like the idea being thrown around of giving boons based on how many tables you've run/played, but 10 is much too low.

Race boons may be given to Con goers 10% of the time. However, cons are only a few times a year for most people, sometimes once. Some people go to a lot of cons and have a plethora of chronicle boons.

As for the way race boons are given, I think it would be better if they were tied to a specific scenario, similar to how the fetchlings were tied to the Onyx Assault from Paizo Con 2012.

I would like to make a couple suggestions about this idea.

If you are going to offer boons to non-convention goers, I like the idea of offering new races. It does not imbalance the game with additional powers.

First, can you consider making these boons distinct from the ones you might get if you go to a convention? I don't think you want to do anything that would detract people from going to conventions, and getting unique boons is one of attractions of going to a big con.

As for random allocation, there is a risk of creating player unhappiness. How about something like: you played or gmed all the mods in season 5 (before season 5 ends) or maybe scenarios xx, xx, and xx about darklings, and you get a race boon for doing it?

I'd just like to offer a counterpoint to all the people to dislike race boons in general:

I like non-core races. I like to see the interesting and unusual characters that people come up with. Some people say that we don't want the Pathfinder Society to turn into a zoo; I prefer to think of it as the Mos Eisley cantina. Besides, isn't the Society exactly the kind of organization that would attract the outcasts, the weirdos, and the freaks? The built-in cameraderie and family, the constant travel and adventure, and the promise of fame and glory make the Society the perfect place for people (or other creatures) who don't fit in anywhere else.

More race boons are a good thing, methinks. Increasing the variety of opportunities for imaginative players probably helps keep PFS fresh for more than a few people. In the same vein, let's not stop trying to find more new ways to challenge players and their characters to help keep that freshness.

Verisimilitude is not likely the way to go when you can cast magic spells and your loot is collected so that you may buy it back later.

Adding Aasimar and Tiefling to the list of always available races was the worst thing that has happened to PFS in recent memory.

Please please please don't continue to flood the system with the Cantina races.

I think part of the issue is also the availability of all the alt-racial abilities.
That makes alot of the non-Core races even more min-maxable, i.e. creating further impetus to play them.
The non-Core races are supposed to be rare enough in PFS, I'm not sure why there needs to be any alt-racial variants of them.
I would say that Tieflings have a strong presence in the Inner Sea region, and make sense as automatically available,
but ESPECIALLY given that most people find their base version very/too strong as a race, allowing alt-racials doesn't seem advisable.
If any alt-racials for non-Core races ARE ever to be allowed, I think it makes more sense to issue them as a boon,
any boon that enables a non-Core race also lists the exact alt-racials along with it,
that is a set package granted by the boon, you accept the race with the given alt-racials or you don't play it.

First, I'll say that I'm glad you're opening up these boons to people who can't make it to conventions. I do go to cons regularly these days, and have two race boons already, but I'm glad to see others included, as well.

But I don't like the idea of forcing it to be tied to specific scenarios in specific time periods. Many people can't or don't play scenarios as soon as they're released. Even someone like me who plays a lot and keeps up with the new scenarios frequently doesn't play things until they've been out 2-3 months, and I'm also regularly playing/GMing older scenarios.

Besides, if you compare it to boons given out at conventions, those aren't tied to which scenarios you play. I know every convention I've attended has given people the same random chance for a boon regardless of whether they're playing the latest season 4 scenario or playing an old season 0 adventure.

So I like the idea of doing this, but I'd rather just see you decide how many of each boon to give out each month, and randomly select from everyone who played and/or GMed that month to get the boons, regardless of which scenario they played. Maybe save the "cute" stuff like tying a boon for a particular race to a scenario involving that race for conventions where you know that scenario will be offered.

I think PFS OrgPlay should still emphasize the Humanocentric world of Golarion, with the Core (or other specifically determined) demi-human races being the normal variation encountered, as well within the PFS. Further variety in roleplaying characterization can easily be achieved by more distinction of all the Human ethnicities, as well as distinctions for regional/cultural variants of the Core demi-Humans (which seems the most neglected).

Enabling other non-Core races doesn't seem especially appropriate or advisable, ESPECIALLY when there isn't particularly much information about the cultural/societal setting from which these races come from in Golarion, as well as similar info for the Humans/Core-Races living nearby these races in the far-off regions they come from. Without this info, the role-playing depth is just not very good with these races, particularly if coherence with Golarion is desired, many players end up making up their own flavor since there isn't much Golarion canon one way or another, or they just have the minimal info based on the generic race description, not actual specific countries and cultural contexts the character would come from within Golarion. (Tieflings are an example where there IS plenty of Golarion canon on their cultural context)

I also like linking race boons to specific scenarios. I think it gives better reason for a races inclusion and makes the players responsible for the relationship that led to the new races exposure to the pathfinders.

One problem I see with this system is a product of our local leadership, which discourages play of newer scenarios from around January through June. This is done so players can play the newer scenarios at conventions. I could see an out cry from local players clamoring for only the newest scenarios and hurting the scheduling efforts of our local leadership.

The clumping of boons due to table based selection bothers me a little too but that may just be the biologist speaking. I am reminded of the fear surrounding the local Tengu epidemic that was supposed to materialize after PAX11, and ruin the local communities. But the flood of corvids never happened, I never saw more then one tengu at any table before they were opened for play without a boon.

The current local aasimar infestation is another matter...

Hypothetical situation: I'd love to see a Season 5 three-scenario arc that if someone played each of them within a month of their release dates, then they are sent a thematic race boon. That ties rewards to playing PFS in season and keeps them to those willing to put in a little bit of effort.

Or maybe that's how you enter someone into the lottery, if we don't want to dilute the pool with too many boons.

I don't love the timed feeling, especially when a scenario comes up and I don't have a character in Tier.

Thanks Mike for opening options to non-con-goers.
Thanks Mike for listening to the fans.
Thanks Mike for being flexible, responsive, and willing to make a choice that has already generated so much flak.
In short thanks for running a game/OP that people will want to play because they know the above is possible.

I have one question, are con-games counted in the total or only non-con games. I dinnae know what percentage of all games is con, but it might make a difference.

I'm not in favor of more race boons. The atypical races detract from the experience in my opinion.

However, I do applaud the effort in getting Con-types of boons into the hands of non-Con attendees. It's a step in the right direction.

My preference would still be for some type of system that awards a point to the player for each scenario completed and then allow that player to purchase boons for an existing character off the website like a meta-prestige system. I think this would scratch all the itches: players would be motivated to play more, GMs could be motivated to report more, and players wouldn't feel getting the boon they wanted is simply a matter of luck (they worked for it).

-Skeld

I don't love the timed feeling, especially when a scenario comes up and I don't have a character in Tier.

Play a pre-gen, then the appropriate race character will actually have the chronicle that earned them the boon :)

Would we know which scenarios would be applicable for the boon?

I have to say that though I love the idea of giving these out as rewards for playing certain events or completing a certain number of missions I think we should avoid locking them to a time limit as it basically shuts those options off to all future players. This can create this sort of punishment and inclusive mindset where new players feel like their options have been pigeonholed just because they got to the party late regardless of the reason. I feel like the best option would be to lock them to some meta points system as mentioned above. This way players have any easy and understandable way to earn these exotic boons while simultaneously having to try out more of the standard options in order to obtain them I.e. a new player may want to build that neko inspired catfolk ninja he's always wanted (and should be allowed to have) but in the process has to play through a few more normal pc's and maybe gm a few games and learn what pf and golarion are really like.

Another interesting option is to lock some to specific factions as a reward for playing so many missions for a specific faction. For instance say you would gain access to a special boon that let you play as a gnoll or mummy inspired dhampir if you managed to get a character to 12+ with the osirion faction or a special devil themed tiefling variant if you rolled cheliax (or even a strix!). This way you get more tangible rewards for rolling certain factions as well as attract new players to those groups.

How does this bring GM´s to report more of their games?

DIrectly: I'm dming i want my lotto ticket

Indirectly, Players caring if the DM report and bugging the DM about it.

My point in suggesting the waves and rewards for players who play a scenario later is that not every player, DM or game night organizer has the ability to field tables running just the current season.

- there may not be enough games in the tiers the players in the region have

- MANY people prefer to run games they have played - so in many regions DMs prefer to run games from the last season (or earlier in this current season) after they have had a chance to play them. While clearly someone has to run scenarios cold as an organizer I would rather support my DMs and players than force any of them to have subpar experiences (however they personally define that)

- Many game nights get schedule a month (or more) in advance - and if you have managed to schedule the right mix of tables to accomodate all of your players and DMs it can be hard to find enough players (and DMs) to run new scenarios you drop in at somewhat the last minute. I'm currently scrambling a bit to schedule Way of the Kirin before Gencon.

Have boons as unlockables similar to how GM stars work. Play x games, get extra trait, play y games, get treasure map. Play z games, get race boon. Save some boons as con only boons, to be awarded using the current system. GMs get credit toward these as well.

Edit: When you unlock a boon, it is available to all of your characters. No trading required to get what you want, unless you want boons that are only offered at cons.

Note that this isn't set in stone; Mike's thinking out loud with this post and wants to hear yay or nay alternative solutions if nay.

Personally, I'm in the yay camp. It rewards playing scenarios somewhat recently to their release. Arguably, the worst part of it may be that players may start demanding certain scenarios if it feels that a new one may focus on a particular race and thus might offer a chance at a race boon.

Still, for those who wish to get cool boons and are unable to attend cons, the idea that something like this is a possibility, even in limited numbers, is still pretty cool.

On that note, Mike, I assume that if something like this were implemented, the boons would be added to the player's downloads, and the chronicle sheet will have text saying that only one of this boon can be used on any legal character; would that be a fair assumption?

Re "The circus in in town" type arguments.

I understand people may not like a diversity of races. As I've said locally, some races I just can't 'get into' for characters. OTOH, others do. Lamenting that Pathfinder isn't the way you want it is fine, after all, I argued for opening up the tieflings for a long time.

I will add that I compliment the people who 'practice what the preach' and don't have any 'exotic' PCs.

For me, I have the ARG, blood of books etc. Since I only play PFS I don't mind them being *slowly* opened up, and I am glad that Mike is continuing the pattern.

I think the more varied you make the game, the more fun it becomes. I would rather see race boons given to non-con GMs though, to encourage GMing.