Hooray! I'm liking the sound of this.
Lisa: Fram, Fram! I'm looking forward to lots of dauntless questing. : )
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Regarding tablets, I think it'd be great to have a mini-game somewhere along the way, maybe based around managing property ownership.
Otherwise, keeping it rooted in character management would be fine too, but im also pulling for some good supporting apps.
Goblin Squad Member
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It is not an oversight. It's secure to protect the email addresses people use to sign up for Goblinworks updates using the widget to the right of the page.I'm honestly not sure why it's https, either - that may have been oversight. At least the security cert has propagated now - when I first accessed the site this afternoon it was still invalid.I just let gary know and he will fixify tomorrow morning. In the meantime, https://goblinworks.com/ will link to it.A heads-up:
www.goblinworks.com is directing to www.paizo.com instead of goblinworks.com.
I know because I was writing a post about it on another website and I test my links before posting. Yes, I still use the www.
Ahh, that makes sense since it's on the main page. Thanks!
I'm very excited and hope they do an excellant job with the mmo. WOW does not do it for me. DDO also. So here hoping my expectations are meet. Another bonus now the 4E detracters can no longer point to 4e and go "they turned 4E into an MMO" when it's closest competitor has done the same. Kind of hypocritical imo.
Ahem...the argument wasn't that they turned 4e into an MMO, it was that they turned an MMO into 4e.
Either way, it's going to be a completely different rules set than the PnP game. That way the MMO rules stay in the MMO and the PnP rules stay on the tabletop.
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Ehrm ... the Akalabeth reference is a valid one, as I must admit my immediate reaction was fear. I have been here before, during the Beta Test and first year of Ultima Online. What you propose sounds precisely like what I thought that game was going to be.
The reality, sadly, was far different.
I am on board for this. Just cautiously so. Which after past experiences is really saying something.
Very excited about this! If there has been anything I have seen from the Paizo staff, it is that they don't just jump in feet first or make decisions on the fly for no reason. A lot of people talk about all the other failing MMO's and our sketchy about another. However, none of the others cared about most of the players in general as Paizo has shown that they do. One of the biggest reasons WOW is still around is that they will semi-cater to the gamers. I think Paizo's strength in this area at the very least gives them a better shot than most.
On that same note look how many paper and pencil games are out and Pathfinder is kickin A$$.
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I don't know if one month before the release of SW:TOR was the best time to announce this. Giving the likely development schedule though you will end up going head to head EQNext.
Good luck and try to find a niche, but my hopes are not high. MMOs are crazy expensive and the vast majority of them fail horribly. Really oughta do a single player or smaller multiplayer game first. Why not a 4 player co-op RPG? Basically an adventure path video game.
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Ahem...the argument wasn't that they turned 4e into an MMO, it was that they turned an MMO into 4e.
PF nmow has an mmo of it's own. I don't think it's fair to still use that argument against 4E. It can't be both ways. Accuse 4E of being an MMO wile PF having an MMO. Sure it might not be like the tabeltop rpg yet it exists.
Either way, it's going to be a completely different rules set than the PnP game. That way the MMO rules stay in the MMO and the PnP rules stay on the tabletop.
I think if they could they would have used the PnP rules. It's a formula that works. Unfortunatly they will also get flak because the mmo does not use the rules of the PnP. Even when Paizo was very clear about that from the start.
As a long time player of Evercrack, World of Warcrack,Warcrack the Reckoning online,Crack City of Heroes, Age of Concrack ...Ahem! It's "City of Heroin."
Now I gotta go back to grinding incarnate trials...
~LAUGHTER~
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Oh god. I read this post and sat here going... "What?" I had to read it twice more before wrapping my head around it. I started my gaming with MMOs. Back when Ultima Online first came out. That's how I eventually came to get into traditional pen and paper RPGs. I'm honestly shocked that this is happening. Something I honestly never expected.
I'm a huge fan of what you (you from here on will refer to Paizo) are doing with your game right now. I love Pathfinder. I play or run a game every weekend, and again every other Wednesday. I enjoy the setting of Golarion, and have become a total sucker for the stuff you put out. But there's always a but.
I started gaming with MMOs. I've spent more time and money on MMOs than I really care to figure out right now. I've played almost every single major MMO to date, and quite a few of the lesser known ones. I've played games that have flopped, and played games that are still alive from the first era of MMOs. I've beta tested more games than I can recall. For all of these reasons, I worry.
I've seen far too many games fail. Either shortly after release, or during beta. Usually it's due to the poor choices of developers during beta, or changes that needed to happen but didn't. I realize that you've only just started on this game, but I implore you to not make some of the mistakes that other companies have made. Warhammer Online is a perfect example. I was a long time beta tester for that game. It was probably the single worst beta experience that I had. Developers that refused to listen to their testers. Assuming everything was perfect when tons of people, their trusted inner circle of testers included, were saying there were loads of changes to be made.
And what happened to Warhammer? It flopped. And it flopped hard. So please, look to the past for mistakes that other companies made and don't repeat those mistakes. Stick to your guns and don't promise your players things that you cannot actually produce. Listen to the people you invite to eventually test your game. And make a kickass game that all the fans of Pathfinder can enjoy.
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Woohoo...... Lots of pressure! but you guys make the best quality RPG stuff in the world so I can see that translating into the MMO world.
not the same beast... none at all.
I wish Paizo the best of lucks with this project and as the japanese say "gambatte" MMO are a lot of effort, good ones even more.The question in my case is what woudl be looking at...
I suppose they will open Absalom or specific regions (Varisia or the River Kingdoms) first, then the ones with less movement or support matterial.
It would be interesting to see the Factions in game, just hope not everyone needs to work for the Pathfinders in order to play, it would be more interesting to be able to join to different faction or groups through gameplay and have this ones ruled by DMs not just AIs.
Instead of Guilds there could be Adventurer's or Mercenaries Companies, but please don't make that mandatory.
more on this later...
"or they can use the game's archetype system go beyond the standard options to create nearly any sort of character imaginable."
EXCELLENT!
Now, can we PLEASE have something like this for the tabletop RPG? I hate picking a class and would love a method of making a character outside those little preconceived boxes.
Thank you.
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"or they can use the game's archetype system go beyond the standard options to create nearly any sort of character imaginable."
EXCELLENT!
Now, can we PLEASE have something like this for the tabletop RPG? I hate picking a class and would love a method of making a character outside those little preconceived boxes.
Thank you.
I believe they are talking about the archetype system that exists for the table top RPG. See the Advanced Players Guide.
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couple things I am thinking
1) I would have preferred a turn based game like NWN but in a multiplayer format so I can play solo (run my own character or party) or play in my own world with friends eg tabletop game with nice graphics
2) having said that - I have not played a MMO since I left Evercrack ... Everquest & I played it for years - this is a game I could see myself playing though if I was to start a new MMO addiction to
3) Please dont do cartoony characters like you have for your artwork now (I am mainly thinking of the Rogue & Sorcerer artworks) I have never liked them & tome they would detract from the game
4) good luck with it
This is quite a surprise. I was hoping for a singleplayer RPG like Baldur's Gate; that would definitely play to Paizo's strength for storytelling and adventure design, which MMO's are not known for. sadly. But, I do enjoy MMOs, I have been addicted to far too many... They offer unique experiences, so I'll keep my eye out on this.
Oh, and please don't leave the solo players (points to self) in the dust. It's annoying to play an MMO that forces teamplay on you that you can't get anywhere without a party beyond the tutorial. It's not fun waiting to play the damn game because you are scouring the LFG chats...
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I believe they are talking about the archetype system that exists for the table top RPG. See the Advanced Players Guide."or they can use the game's archetype system go beyond the standard options to create nearly any sort of character imaginable."
EXCELLENT!
Now, can we PLEASE have something like this for the tabletop RPG? I hate picking a class and would love a method of making a character outside those little preconceived boxes.
Thank you.
I'm actually fairly sure they're not...
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Please give the project time to breathe before everyone gets worried.
I'm not sure if we will even mesh PFS with PFO. I've played just about every MMORPG out there, suffered most of their first week (or first month) crashes (anybody remember Anarchy Online)?
With that said, I'm sure I have a lot of upcoming meetings in regard to the two. I'm cautious and anyone who knows me knows I'm not afraid to give an honest opinion. If ideas presented to offer PFS portions in PFO or vice versa are not a good fit, believe I will make sure the powers that be know.
With that said, I'm excited for this new venture and can't wait to see what Ryan and crew brew up for PFO. It will take some time to get this thing going so everyone relax, sit back, and enjoy the ride.
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I'm actually fairly sure they're not...I believe they are talking about the archetype system that exists for the table top RPG. See the Advanced Players Guide."or they can use the game's archetype system go beyond the standard options to create nearly any sort of character imaginable."
EXCELLENT!
Now, can we PLEASE have something like this for the tabletop RPG? I hate picking a class and would love a method of making a character outside those little preconceived boxes.
Thank you.
Hmmm.
Well, you probably know a lot more about MMOs than I do, so you may well be right, but I’d be interested to know why you are fairly certain that’s not what they mean.
My reasons for thinking it is include the obvious – the same term is used in both cases; the fact that the archetypes presented in the APG and other books appear to be a generally popular and well regarded addition to the game, so why not use them here (As they are using character classes by the sound of things)and the fact that the language used here; “they can use the game's archetype system go beyond the standard options to create nearly any sort of character imaginable” is similar to that used in the APG to describe the archetypes there;
“beyond that basic concept exists the potential for innumerable interpretations, details, and refinements” and “each subsystem is customized to best serve that class, emulate the abilities and talents of classic fantasy archetypes, and expand players' freedom to design exactly the characters they desire.”
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And what happened to Warhammer? It flopped. And it flopped hard.When you say "flopped", what do you mean, exactly? Warhammer Online is certainly on its way out, but it's widely understood to have been commercially (financially) successful.
The game had 800k players. Within 3 months that number dropped to 300k. EA lost a little over 1 billion dollars that year. Was that due to Warhammer? Probably in part. But the fact is that no official statement was ever released saying the game was a financial success. If the game was a success, why not say so? It's all just speculation. But you can't argue numbers as far as the player base goes. Losing over half of your customers in 3 months? Sorry, but that's a flop.
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I could care less about the rule set that an MMO follows. They are not the same and you should not aim for it. Pathfinder is a turn-based tabletop RPG. As a rules set for a TTOP RPG, it works quite well. However, a MMO is not a tabletop RPG. The people who think it should work like that do not get the design issues and probably never will.
I already know that the devs know this – but many of the fans here just don’t get it . Persuade your fans as to why – and with patience, the persuadable will be persuaded. However, some of these fans are NOT persuadable under any circumstances. That’s life. Keep selling them books and they will still be your customers, just not your online players. That’s okay. Let ‘em rant, because that isn’t Pathfinder.
I do see, however, a number of things that CAN work and DO feel like "Pathfinder,” to wit:
1 - Class Abilities: Pathfinder has improved upon and developed a number of class abilities that serve to distinguish the class from others. Those abilities should form a tangible aspect of a class design.
For example, we know what Paladins are. A Pathfinder: Online Paladin should have auras; smite evil, and have the ability to confer those benefits to others. Similarly, we know that a Witch has a familiar, can fly, and can cast hexes like misfortune and deep slumber. Alchemists in Pathfinder throw bombs and can use mutagens to increase their stats and body size. While something like a Vancian based arcane bond is not likely to matter in PF: O, Wizards should be able to throw a weapon and have it return to their hands. They should get some sort of metamagic and should be able to craft magic items. They should get a scorching ray and get multiple numbers of them as they advance (never mind what damage they actually do or how often it can be used) Barbarians are all about rage and DR. Gunslingers are all about guns, deeds, and grit, Ninjas can vanish, etc..
Keep the recognizable iconic abilities of classes and make them do similar sorts of things which are somewhat intuitive and recognizable to a player. The underlying math, lethality and so forth is irrelevant. Let the computer game designers of the MMO be computer game designers of an MMO. Nevertheless, some of the iconic powers of a class need to be represented and unique because that’s what fans expect and that’s what keeps up the verisimilitude of the Pathfinder brand.
2 - Look and Feel: Pathfinder has a distinctive art direction to its characters and many of its monsters. Some of that is going to work well in a computer game -- and some of it is not. Cut the stuff that will not work for polycount and animation reasons and do it without remorse.
But when you get right down to it, Pathfinder is Wayne Reynolds' art style. Make that come to life? You are golden in terms of art direction. Fail to deliver it and you dropped the ball and will alienate customers. Sorry – but in many respects it really IS that simple.
Above all, keep the cartoony look to your characters. There are strong benefits to this. On a technical design basis, it reduces polycount. As we move forward in the next five years, PC Gaming threatens to go off a cliff and the desktop will not be the primary platform for this game. Accordingly, anything that reduces graphical overhead and makes it more laptop friendly is good. Any CTO who tells you what the GPU capabilities are of the expected users of this game 4 years from now is making it up. He doesn’t know. That’s an ENORMOUS tech risk, so the engine and art direction has to be HIGHLY scaleable.
If you went for something like the CANVAS engine for your art style? You would not go wrong in terms of artistic impact (tech/economic feasibility is another matter). Apply the CANVAS engine's style and Wayne Reynolds art and color palettes and tell me you wouldn’t drool to play that game.
On a less technical basis, cartoony designs also serve to make the game look unique. The problem with realistic 3d models , shaders and middleware environmental options all designed to operate within the tech limits of the hardware platform of the day is that it all ends up looking the same, from game to game. Seeing as you are likely to have to use middleware for much of your environmental organic effects, anything that serves to distinguish the look of the game from that produced by others enhances the value. In this case, it also delivers on the expectations of fans – so double down on Wayne Reynolds' iconics and cartoony goblins.
Blizzard made the right call with WoW. Some people hated it and it turned them off -- but you cannot argue with that level of success. I can confirm that there was a significant debate within BioWare as to whether to go cartoony with SW:ToR. BioWare decided to go a little cartoony with their art direction in TOR too -- and it was the right call. Some people complained sure, but some people always complain.
3 - Golarion: At Paizo's current publication rate, it is likely that there will at that time of PF:O's release be more game material written about the world of Golarion than any other fantasy world in the history of RPGs. Even the FR (and that's saying something, damn it).
That is a VAST treasure trove of IP. It's the one thing Paizo brings to the table which it does BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, in or outside of the computer development field. Do not sacrifice this on anybody's sandbox altar. Dance with the girl that brung ya.
That's what a Pathfinder: Online is to me. It's not rolling a 20, it's not Vancian Magic, longswords which do 1d8 or even magic missiles.
Gimme a Witch that hexes with a fox familiar, a chance to interact with the iconic characters which LOOK like Wayne Reynold's art come to life -- all set in a believable slice of Golarion.
That's a Pathfinder MMO to me.
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One thing I do want to make clear. Goblinworks won't have any negative impact on Paizo. Separate company. Separate staffs. Paizo is going to stay focused on what we do best which is making awesome pen and paper RPG products. Goblinworks will focus on the MMO. This is just like our relationship with Reaper or WizKids or any other licensor.
This and the other notes along these lines eased my biggest worries over this project. It can't be stressed enough how carefully one needs to tread stepping into that territory, but it looks like that's been given a lot of consideration already, especially with Ryan Dancey's bit on "underpromise, then overdeliver".
I have to admit that I would have preferred something along the lines of NWN rather than a persistant online MMO, mainly because the former allows for modding, and adaptability is one of the biggest strengths tabletop RPGs have over CRPGs(making your own campaigns, allowing for other races, etc.)
Still a bit worried, but watching this with interest. :)
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Well, it was bound to happen....there's finally a front page BIG news announcement concerning my favorite gaming company that I just can not get excited about. Sorry. I hope the game goes over well, and the MMO players embrace it, I do. I simply prefer not to mix my video games with my actual games. But, for those of you who are excited to see this, I do in fact hope that the same level of care and commitment is poured into the project, returning what can only be an excellent game for you. In the meantime, I'll be at the table, rolling some dice.
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2 - Look and Feel: Pathfinder has a distinctive art direction to its characters and many of its monsters. Some of that is going to work well in a computer game -- and some of it is not. Cut the stuff that will not work for polycount and animation reasons and do it without remorse.
But when you get right down to it, Pathfinder is Wayne Reynolds' art style. Make that come to life? You are golden in terms of art direction. Fail to deliver it and you dropped the ball and will alienate customers. Sorry – but in many respects it really IS that simple.
Above all, keep the cartoony look to your characters. There are strong benefits to this.
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+10
Also, avoiding Real Is Brown is a must, but that shouldn't be hard considering the source material's existing artwork.
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Everyone needs to read Steel_Wind's post above. It sums up what I hope Pathfinder Online becomes - not just for the sake of my playing it, but for the sake of the project. I daresay that the development team (or whatever will eventually become the dev team) is already thinking along those lines.
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glad to see its PC based & if Mac makes an appearance fine as long as it does not decrease PC play - it has the benefit though in it will increase the fan base
DONT create the game to be Xbox or any console compatible - that just cheapens the game as consoles just can not compete with true PC/Mac power & versatility - at least not yet
This is very exciting news, and we're thrilled to finally get to share it with you! We plan to monitor this thread throughout the day and the coming weeks, so let us know what you think!
I just wet myself a little...
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Well, I would prefer a single player (or cooperative play multi-player) video game in the vein of Borderlands or the Mass Effect style of play but this still made me squeal with glee.
I'm not a fan of MMO RPG's, I play D&D Online now and then, when the mood strikes me, Occasionally run around on Lord of the Rings online, but the only MMO that's interested me in a long time is Bioware's Old Republic. That said, curse you for adding another potential drain on my wallet! Sounds like you're approaching it from a better angle than the 'I sure do hate wolves, collect 10 wolf pelts and I give youz sum munnies' style that WoW and it's kin run with.
It sounds like a cool premise, shape the River Kingdoms however you like, and with someone from Eve Online getting involved it sounds particularly cool. My only concern is this: Eve Online is inundated with jerks and douchebags, and quite frankly, I hope this game has guards to keep other people from ruining the fun of those who just want to play. Nothing sucks more than someone who's worked hard in their spare time only to have it all wiped away because some jerk with no life comes alone with the forces/character he's built from hundreds of hours of gameplay (due to not having a full time job and living in his parents basement) decided it was fun to crush the little guy.
That's not fun, or entertaining, it's infuriating.
So if you have safeguards for the 'casual' MMO gamer then I offer up my wallet in sacrifice :P
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couple things I am thinking
1) I would have preferred a turn based game like NWN but in a multiplayer format so I can play solo (run my own character or party) or play in my own world with friends eg tabletop game with nice graphics
2) having said that - I have not played a MMO since I left Evercrack ... Everquest & I played it for years - this is a game I could see myself playing though if I was to start a new MMO addiction to
3) Please dont do cartoony characters like you have for your artwork now (I am mainly thinking of the Rogue & Sorcerer artworks) I have never liked them & tome they would detract from the game
4) good luck with it
Honestly I have to say the Wayne Reynolds art style is one of the primary things I think of when I think "Pathfinder". It's iconic and I have to agree with Steel_Wind when I say I hope the game emulates that to the best of it's abilities. He lays it out much better however.
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It's somewhat of a disappointment to me, but hardly surprising. One of the problems with being a technophobe in the 21st century. :(
Here's hoping it makes just enough money to be worth the risk but brings more people into what I'm always going to think of as 'proper' pathfinder to promote further investment there.
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Well, very interesting.
I have to say though, if digital games are a direction Paizo is looking for to further expand PF, shouldn't other mediums fit more? for years now I've been thinking how awesome it could be to convert any of the wonderful Adventure Paths to a Biowere style RPG... that could be a perfect medium to tell a story is reach, complex and cool as most APs tell. so I guess this is a question directed at both fans and Paizo stuff members - to the fans, would you rather have a single player RPG, done Biowere style? and to That Golem Who's Always Got It: can you see something like this happening in some distant, awesome future?
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I tried WoW once and didn't like it at all.
I dabbled in Lord of the Rings Online for a while and stopped when I realized it was the same thing with hairy feet.
I will soon join the betatesters of Star Wars The Old Republic and already am disappointed in Bioware for (so I heard at least) creating just another MMO that talks.
Please, oh most favorite gaming company of all, don't fall into the same trapholes that so many before you alreday have fallen, please be courageous enough to do something uniquely new and above all, please be true to the PFRPG ruleset!
FWIW, SW:TOR already has one of my favorite writers for space drama: David Simon. Might as well read his long-running webcomic Crimson Dark before deciding what you think about it.
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I will happily give it a go.
I look forwards to it.
But and this is an important but.
I can only see my self sticking with it, if player generated content is a major part of the game. The promise of 'being able to build castles. settle villages, and start wars" really does need to be in it. Perhaps even more so than in games such as EVE.
Edit: The other thing that might keep me interested is REALLY strong story telling. I mean as strong as edge of anarchy + seven days to the grave + skinsaw murders + carrion crown.
I'm excited on the one hand. I love world-building, influence gaining etc. Up until now, I've HATED almost all MMORPGs, though: Boring Fetch Quests, stupid grinding lackluster stories (if at all), annoying "LMAO, n00b"-skriptkiddies that took Computer-science I and break RP even on RP-servers... The list is endless.
All the best to you, Paizo. I'm willing to check the final product out. As of yet... I don't expect anything.
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Ah, too bad that I don't like MMOs.
I was hoping for a PF-computer-RPG ala Baldur's Gate or Temple of Elemental Evil.
I rather have my game than play online. I tried WoW and was dissapppinted. No RpG feeling at all...
Anyway, I wish Paizo all the best for this venture, but MMOs are not for me.
Maybe the next computer product will be closer to an RPG like Torment or BG...