Learning Exotic Spells

Monday, February 16, 2014

The Pathfinder Society team recently introduced the Core Campaign, an additional way to participate in Pathfinder Society that makes it more approachable while also opening up hundreds of new ways to play for credit. As you may have seen last week, when Mike and I added the essential Inner Sea World Guide languages to the list of those a PC can learn in the Core Campaign, we're listening to your questions about this new option and providing essential clarifications. In addition to these blogs, I recommend checking out the Core Campaign forum.


Alahazra, Oloch, and Shardra cast a powerful spell from a non-Core source. Off-screen, Kyra weeps with envy.
Illustration by David Alvarez

This past week, Mike and I discussed exactly how we wanted to handle the process for learning non-Core spells in the Core Campaign. We had decided early on to allow wizards to scribe non-Core spells they come across, but as many of you pointed out, that leaves bards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and sorcerers without any means of learning non-Core spells whatsoever. In a way this makes sense, but it's a rather unsatisfying, perverse kind of sense. Here's what we're going to do:

  • Wizard PCs can scribe non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls during the scenario, but the opportunity ends when the scenario does. Record any such spells learned on the Chronicle sheet, and have the GM initial the note.
  • If an NPC prepared spellcaster has a spellbook but no spells listed in it, he is assumed to have any spells he has prepared in the book.
  • Even if he missed his opportunity during the scenario, a wizard PC can learn spells from any scroll that appears on a Chronicle sheet by purchasing it and scribing it as normal.
  • Other PCs able to cast spells—spontaneously or from a divine spell list that does not depend on a spellbook—can learn spells they find in scroll form so long as they buy the scroll and expend it to add the spell to her list of legal spells; spontaneous spellcasters must still expend known spell slots in order to learn the spell. These PCs cannot learn non-Core spells from spellbooks.

Wizards have always been among the best at incorporating new spells into their repertoire, and this keeps them that way while also letting non-wizards learn spells from scrolls they purchase from their found Chronicle sheets.

John Compton
Developer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Core Campaign David Alvarez Pathfinder Society
1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Tampa aka MattCaulder

2 people marked this as a favorite.

John,

Does this mean Wizards can trade non-Core spells among themselves at tables? So if Wizard 1 has a spell in his spellbook, Wizard 2 can scribe it in his spellbook for the appropriate cost?

5/5

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And I just asked this on the forums yesterday. Thanks John.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

Thank you John, this answered a pressing question with the players in my area.

Silver Crusade

Matthew Caulder wrote:

John,

Does this mean Wizards can trade non-Core spells among themselves at tables? So if Wizard 1 has a spell in his spellbook, Wizard 2 can scribe it in his spellbook for the appropriate cost?

Looks like it, since

Quote:
Wizard PCs can scribe non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls during the scenario

:-)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Joe M. wrote:
Matthew Caulder wrote:

John,

Does this mean Wizards can trade non-Core spells among themselves at tables? So if Wizard 1 has a spell in his spellbook, Wizard 2 can scribe it in his spellbook for the appropriate cost?

Looks like it, since

Quote:
Wizard PCs can scribe non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls during the scenario
:-)

I would say no. You can only learn non-core spells if your character personally has it on a chronicle sheet.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Mike has said PCs can scribe non-Core spells from other PCs.

Michael Brock wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Wizards can copy spells from one another's spellbooks into their own. If my Core Mode PC has a non-core spell (from a Chronicle), can another PC copy that spell and use it?
Spellbooks = as long as the GM checks the original players Chronicle and then initials off on teh Chronicle where the new player scribed the spell from.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

well there ya go.

Silver Crusade

Does the character need to expend the scroll for the express purpose of adding it to their legal spells, or can it be expended by being used in the course of a scenario (obviously, after the character has bought it still)?

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Why do we need this? I thought core was going to trim things down, and here we are trying to get more stuff into it?

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Kovok wrote:
Why do we need this? I thought core was going to trim things down, and here we are trying to get more stuff into it?

Earning access to things outside core is a very meaningful reward on chronicles this way.

This is about earned reward access, not Additional Resources.

Liberty's Edge

Dont worry, we often see way more Sorcs as the BBEG than Wizards so I dont expect it to be too much of an issue.

5/5 ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TetsujinOni wrote:
Kovok wrote:
Why do we need this? I thought core was going to trim things down, and here we are trying to get more stuff into it?

Earning access to things outside core is a very meaningful reward on chronicles this way.

This is about earned reward access, not Additional Resources.

It also lets new players learn about and gain the options from their chronicle sheets organically as they are encountered rather than from the big overwhelming stack of rulebooks.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I very much like the ruling, especially as an up-and-coming cleric.

Re: the photo caption - Kyra might be envious for a moment, until she remembers that of the four casters mentioned, she's the only one who exists in the Core campaign ;)

Shadow Lodge

That last point is the most important point, and I think it's worded a little confusingly.

So if I'm a sorcerer, and I see an APG spell scroll on a chronicle sheet, and I'm going to level up after my next scenario and want to add it to my list of spells known, I just pay the cost and treat the spell as if it were a spell in the Core Rulebook (most likely immediately adding it to my list of spells known).

Is that right?


What is that familiar creature on her shoulders?

Alp-Luachra?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Im a little confused, too.

Lets say a Druid finds a scroll in a game, but it is NOT on the Chronicle sheet. Can they buy it, at value, and then add it to their effective list?

If instead they find a scroll that IS on the Chronicle sheet. Can they later, (games later), purchase it and add it to their list?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If it isn't on the chronicle, they can't buy it later.


Avatar-1 wrote:

That last point is the most important point, and I think it's worded a little confusingly.

So if I'm a sorcerer, and I see an APG spell scroll on a chronicle sheet, and I'm going to level up after my next scenario and want to add it to my list of spells known, I just pay the cost and treat the spell as if it were a spell in the Core Rulebook (most likely immediately adding it to my list of spells known).

Is that right?

And on top of that, do you have to leave a slot open to be able to do this, just in the hopes you come across something useful that happens to end up on the Chronicle sheet? Because, typically, the rule is, at each level you learn X new spells. Do you have to learn them immediately? I've never been clear on that in the first place. If you do, then this breaks the rules of how Sorcerers learn spells. If it doesn't, it means you have to do something that people probably don't do often and that is leave a slot unused just to be able to learn a spell you may never encounter. On top of which, you have to purchase it (something Sorcerers can't do in the first place, so another rule broken), whereas the Wizard, given enough time in-game, can still learn spells for free.


Andrew Christian wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Matthew Caulder wrote:

John,

Does this mean Wizards can trade non-Core spells among themselves at tables? So if Wizard 1 has a spell in his spellbook, Wizard 2 can scribe it in his spellbook for the appropriate cost?

Looks like it, since

Quote:
Wizard PCs can scribe non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls during the scenario
:-)
I would say no. You can only learn non-core spells if your character personally has it on a chronicle sheet.

Or if you encounter it during the scenario. Another PC's spellbook is during the scenario.

Silver Crusade

I would assume that the GM would note on your chronicle that you now have access to the spell, and you could then choose that spell any time you gain a spell known of that level. You could also choose to retrain a spell know into the new spell.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
SeraphX2 wrote:


And on top of that, do you have to leave a slot open to be able to do this, just in the hopes you come across something useful that happens to end up on the Chronicle sheet? Because, typically, the rule is, at each level you learn X new spells.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between "spells known" and "list of legal spells."

When a spontaneous caster gains a "known spell," the caster chooses that spell from the "list of legal spells" for that caster's class.

In the Core Campaign, the "list of legal spells" for a spontaneous caster is the complete list of spells available to that class that are found in the source books allowed in the Core Campaign.

John's blog post above provides spontaneous casters a method for adding spells to their "list of legal spells," not for adding spells directly to their list of "spells known."

To "learn" the spell (and therefore be able to cast it), you must select it as a learned spell (thereby adding it to your list of "spells known") when you gain a spell slot of the appropriate spell level.

3/5

I think it works like this:

A wizard can acquire a spell for free (other than the cost of scribing into her spellbook) during a scenario, either by copying from a scroll or from another wizard's (or other spellbook-using class) spellbook. This can be an NPC wizard or a PC wizard. The GM must note this on their chronicles so that it's clearly legal.

Any other caster must buy the scroll that appears on the chronicle and expend it, which wizards also have the option to do. Sorcerors and bards may take the spell as one of their spells known when they level up, or by utilizing the retraining rules, which are an option in Core campaign even though they aren't part of the CRB. Clerics, druids, rangers, and paladins may treat the spell as part of their spell list once they have purchased the scroll and expended it, and the GM must note this on their chronicles so that it's clearly legal.

Shadow Lodge

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Im a little confused, too.

Lets say a Druid finds a scroll in a game, but it is NOT on the Chronicle sheet. Can they buy it, at value, and then add it to their effective list?

If instead they find a scroll that IS on the Chronicle sheet. Can they later, (games later), purchase it and add it to their list?

Andrew Christian wrote:
If it isn't on the chronicle, they can't buy it later.

Assuming that your response was aimed at me, that doesn't help at all, or even pertain to what was asked.

:P

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Dunedin aka dinketry

1 person marked this as a favorite.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Im a little confused, too.

Lets say a Druid finds a scroll in a game, but it is NOT on the Chronicle sheet. Can they buy it, at value, and then add it to their effective list?

If instead they find a scroll that IS on the Chronicle sheet. Can they later, (games later), purchase it and add it to their list?

The answer to your first question is "No" for a Druid. It would be "Yes" for a Wizard.

The answer to your second question is "Yes".


Good. I approve of this. Now to find a scroll of enhance water somewhere... My dwarven cleric needs to get his drink on!

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Im a little confused, too.

Lets say a Druid finds a scroll in a game, but it is NOT on the Chronicle sheet. Can they buy it, at value, and then add it to their effective list?

If instead they find a scroll that IS on the Chronicle sheet. Can they later, (games later), purchase it and add it to their list?

Andrew Christian wrote:
If it isn't on the chronicle, they can't buy it later.

Assuming that your response was aimed at me, that doesn't help at all, or even pertain to what was asked.

:P

I'm pretty sure it pertains exactly to what you asked. I bolded the part I was responding to above.

4/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Im a little confused, too.

Lets say a Druid finds a scroll in a game, but it is NOT on the Chronicle sheet. Can they buy it, at value, and then add it to their effective list?

If instead they find a scroll that IS on the Chronicle sheet. Can they later, (games later), purchase it and add it to their list?

Andrew Christian wrote:
If it isn't on the chronicle, they can't buy it later.

Assuming that your response was aimed at me, that doesn't help at all, or even pertain to what was asked.

:P

I'm pretty sure it pertains exactly to what you asked. I bolded the part I was responding to above.

I think the poster was asking about purchasing said scroll at cost during the scenario to add to the spell list. That said, I would assume the answer is no.

I'm concerned that this might encourage some players to go spellbook hunting in their scenario choices (much like boon hunting, which we know is strongly discouraged). Personally, I don't like this decision and would prefer that scrolls remain scrolls and spells that aren't in the CRB aren't on your spell list, regardless of what the other sources say, but I'm glad that the vast majority of players that I play with won't abuse this ruling.

Shadow Lodge

I was actually trying to ask two separate questions that as far as I can tell, the Blog does not cover.

1.) can a non-wizard purchase something on the spot that they find, but is not listed on the Chronicle sheet and use that to add that spell to their list?

2.) can a non-wizard purchase scrolls that are listed on a Chronicle Sheet any time after that session, to add it to their spell list?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Dunedin aka dinketry

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I was actually trying to ask two separate questions that as far as I can tell, the Blog does not cover.

1.) can a non-wizard purchase something on the spot that they find, but is not listed on the Chronicle sheet and use that to add that spell to their list?

2.) can a non-wizard purchase scrolls that are listed on a Chronicle Sheet any time after that session, to add it to their spell list?

Again, the answers to your questions are:

1.) No
2.) Yes

4/5

If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?

The Exchange 5/5

David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?

I don't think so... I could be wrong, but I would think that if it is used, it can't then be used again to scribe to their book (or in the case of a Witch, used to teach it to a familiar).

I'm sure there is some table variation on this...so, YMMV.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Only if they buy it afterwards. If it's used up during the scenario it's not physically present to be copied (and copying does in fact use up the scroll).

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Dunedin aka dinketry

David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?

If, during the scenario, the wizard specifically took the time to scribe the scroll, and then it was used, then yes. Otherwise, if it's not written on the chronicle sheet and it was used, then no. Opportunity missed.

The Exchange 5/5

Paul Trani wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?
If, during the scenario, the wizard specifically took the time to scribe the scroll, and then it was used, then yes. Otherwise, if it's not written on the chronicle sheet and it was used, then no. Opportunity missed.

Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle. The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar.

So may corner cases in this....

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Tweedle-Dum wrote:
Paul Trani wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?
If, during the scenario, the wizard specifically took the time to scribe the scroll, and then it was used, then yes. Otherwise, if it's not written on the chronicle sheet and it was used, then no. Opportunity missed.

Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle. The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar.

So may corner cases in this....

Actually, not.

Spellbook users in Core: Wizard.
Spontaneous casters in Core: Sorcerer, Bard
Prepared non-spellbook casters in Core: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger
Non-casters in Core: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue

So, Wizards get to scribe without access cost.
Others have to buy a scroll of the spell to unlock it, by expending it, for being able to prepare it or add it to their spells known.

Only Wizards from Core get the ability to do this from an NPC's spellbook, all others need scrolls.

The Exchange 5/5

kinevon wrote:
Tweedle-Dum wrote:
Paul Trani wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?
If, during the scenario, the wizard specifically took the time to scribe the scroll, and then it was used, then yes. Otherwise, if it's not written on the chronicle sheet and it was used, then no. Opportunity missed.

Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle. The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar.

So may corner cases in this....

Actually, not.

Spellbook users in Core: Wizard.
Spontaneous casters in Core: Sorcerer, Bard
Prepared non-spellbook casters in Core: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger
Non-casters in Core: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue

So, Wizards get to scribe without access cost.
Others have to buy a scroll of the spell to unlock it, by expending it, for being able to prepare it or add it to their spells known.

Only Wizards from Core get the ability to do this from an NPC's spellbook, all others need scrolls.

???

what part of my post is "Actually, not"?

"Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle."
This part still looks valid to me - even in Core only.

" The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar."
This part still looks valid to me - In Core there are no alchemists, magi, or witches (currently), so they would not be effected, or effect this.

and the final line...
"So many corner cases in this..."
was just a comment about how we as players can twist circumstances into all kinds of odd angles.

Or were you objecting to me mentioning classes that are not in Core in this thread?

Shadow Lodge

Paul Trani wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I was actually trying to ask two separate questions that as far as I can tell, the Blog does not cover.

1.) can a non-wizard purchase something on the spot that they find, but is not listed on the Chronicle sheet and use that to add that spell to their list?

2.) can a non-wizard purchase scrolls that are listed on a Chronicle Sheet any time after that session, to add it to their spell list?

Again, the answers to your questions are:

1.) No
2.) Yes

I was looking for an official clarification. I'm not sure if your response is speculation, inside knowledge that hasn't been released, answered in some random other thread, your personal preference, or what, but it's not clear in this blog.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Tweedle-Dum wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Tweedle-Dum wrote:
Paul Trani wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
If the scroll is used during the course of the scenario do the wizards in the party still have an opportunity to scribe the scroll?
If, during the scenario, the wizard specifically took the time to scribe the scroll, and then it was used, then yes. Otherwise, if it's not written on the chronicle sheet and it was used, then no. Opportunity missed.

Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle. The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar.

So may corner cases in this....

Actually, not.

Spellbook users in Core: Wizard.
Spontaneous casters in Core: Sorcerer, Bard
Prepared non-spellbook casters in Core: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger
Non-casters in Core: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue

So, Wizards get to scribe without access cost.
Others have to buy a scroll of the spell to unlock it, by expending it, for being able to prepare it or add it to their spells known.

Only Wizards from Core get the ability to do this from an NPC's spellbook, all others need scrolls.

???

what part of my post is "Actually, not"?

"Heck, if it is on the Chronicle but WASN'T found during the scenario, then the wizard doesn't get a chance to copy it (without paying for access) even if it is on the chronicle."
This part still looks valid to me - even in Core only.

" The exception to this would be if it were in a spellbook - whiich a wizard/alchemist/magus could copy, but then a Witch would not be able to add it to her familiar."
This part still looks valid to me - In Core there are no alchemists, magi, or witches (currently), so they would not be effected, or effect this.

and the final line...
"So many corner cases in this..."
was just a...

Well, this is a thread in the Core campaign area, so most of your corner cases don't exist for this campaign. So, for Core, it seems fairly simple and straightforward.

Yes, it still favors the Wizard. Don't most things? After all, the Wizard's potential spontaneous spell is, virtually, unlimited (1 spell, any spell he can cast in his spellbooks). Much less limited than the Cleric (Cure or Inflict) or Druid's (Summon Nature's Ally Y) spontaneous spells; and the Sorcerer's version of spontaneous spell is only vaguely spontaneous at all, being limited to spells known, not spells on his spell list.

For David's question:
If the scroll was used during the scenario to cast the spell scribed on it, the Wizard cannot scribe it into his spellbook, as it is no longer on the scroll.

If, at some point during the adventure, the Wizard was able to burn the hour to scribe the spell from the scroll into his spellbook, the scroll is no longer available to be used later in the adventured, as scribing from the scroll also removes the spell from the scroll.

If the scroll is not listed in the access list on the chronicle, no one can buy the scroll (unless it is a Core spell), so no one can gain access to the spell later.

If the scroll is listed on the chronicle as available for purchase, anyone whose spell list includes that spell can purchase the scroll and use it (source material to scribe form for the Wizard, expended for the other classes) to add it to their spells known (Sorcerer) or spells able to be prepared (Cleric and Druid) lists.

If the spell is only available in a spellbook found during the adventure, only the Wizard can benefit from access to it, as Wizard is the only Core class that uses spellbooks. Unless the spellbook is listed on the chronicle, however, the Wizard must scribe the spells into his spellbook before that game session ends to gain the free access to those spells.


Hmm, I'm curious. What spell are they casting in the image?

Sovereign Court

So, if you play a pregen Ezren level 7 and find non-core spells in a spell book or scrolls those spells are written on the chronicle (as there are no special exclusions for pregens). That chronicle can then be allocated to a first level core wizard (or indeed any spellcasting class) to get access to those spells.

Correct?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Runge wrote:
Hmm, I'm curious. What spell are they casting in the image?

Its a sweet block text spell from ACG that probably doesn't have an in game equivalent (yet).

Quote:

Oloch sniffed the air. “They’re rising.”

“It’s about time.” Alahazra reached out to her companions. “Give me your hands.”

Oloch eyed them dubiously, first Alahazra and then the dwarven newcomer.

The dwarf snorted derisively and grabbed both by the hand. “Don’t worry, orc, I won’t hurt you.” She inclined her head. “I can’t say the same for that lot, though.”

From all around them came the clacking of dry bones as the skeleton army rose from the dirt, swords gleaming.

“Enough talk.” Alahazra’s eyes blazed with yellow light. “Let’s put these souls to rest.”


Venture Munchkin wrote:

So, if you play a pregen Ezren level 7 and find non-core spells in a spell book or scrolls those spells are written on the chronicle (as there are no special exclusions for pregens). That chronicle can then be allocated to a first level core wizard (or indeed any spellcasting class) to get access to those spells.

Correct?

My interpretation is this: If you were to find some spells in a spell book and scribe them into Ezren's spell book, they would not be available to any character you applied the chronicle to, and this is why.

The note that the GM signs saying what spells were transcribed isn't saying "these are available to purchase or scribe in the future" It is noting "these particular spells have been scribed into the spell book of the character that was participating in this scenario."

In short, to me it seems the note on the chronicle says the player had access and took advantage of it, not the player gained access to scribe whenever they want.


Walter Sheppard wrote:
Runge wrote:
Hmm, I'm curious. What spell are they casting in the image?

Its a sweet block text spell from ACG that probably doesn't have an in game equivalent (yet).

Quote:

Oloch sniffed the air. “They’re rising.”

“It’s about time.” Alahazra reached out to her companions. “Give me your hands.”

Oloch eyed them dubiously, first Alahazra and then the dwarven newcomer.

The dwarf snorted derisively and grabbed both by the hand. “Don’t worry, orc, I won’t hurt you.” She inclined her head. “I can’t say the same for that lot, though.”

From all around them came the clacking of dry bones as the skeleton army rose from the dirt, swords gleaming.

“Enough talk.” Alahazra’s eyes blazed with yellow light. “Let’s put these souls to rest.”

Aww, that's a shame. It looks really neat though, just might have to come up with one myself! Thank you :)

Grand Lodge

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Paul Trani wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I was actually trying to ask two separate questions that as far as I can tell, the Blog does not cover.

1.) can a non-wizard purchase something on the spot that they find, but is not listed on the Chronicle sheet and use that to add that spell to their list?

2.) can a non-wizard purchase scrolls that are listed on a Chronicle Sheet any time after that session, to add it to their spell list?

Again, the answers to your questions are:

1.) No
2.) Yes

I was looking for an official clarification. I'm not sure if your response is speculation, inside knowledge that hasn't been released, answered in some random other thread, your personal preference, or what, but it's not clear in this blog.

So the point you are refering to is the line from the blog

...spell list that does not depend on a spellbook—can learn spells they find in scroll form so long as they buy the scroll and expend it to add the spell to her list of legal spells.

This does seem to be a little unclear. Maybe they will clarify.

Though for most of us it seems fairly clear, the mechanics of how you purchase items is considered to be done between scenarios, not as part of the adventure. Look at it this way, if a +2 shocking longsword is on a bad guy, I can't actually buy it until after the adventure is over and it's on the chronicle sheet.

The Exchange 5/5

With all due respect to all the OPs in this thread with various interpretations and the blog post itself, I don't see any restriction in the Core Rulebook about who can buy a scroll.

Sequence goes as follows:
1. Non-Wizard PC defeats BBEG and gains adventure access to captured NPC spellbook, perhaps with Non-CORE spells.
2. Same PC takes spellbook to local NPC Wizard/Scribe and requests to buy a scroll of said spell(s) - perfectly legal in-game action when in a city center to acquire durable items, unless someone wants to rule that it's no longer possible to buy scrolls in adventures, of course.
3. NPC Wizard either knows spell, learns spell, or transfers spell from BBEG NPC Spellbook so they can learn it to create the scroll. Again, a perfectly legal in-game action.
4. PC returns to NPC Wizard/Scribe, pays any required fees and leaves with a durable, purchased scroll(s) from the captured BBEG spellbook that persist across adventures, chronicle sheet item or not (assuming the scrolls are an always available 1st level item or the player has sufficient fame to purchase them).

If anyone can explain why the above is not a valid course of action per the CRB and Guide when encountering a captured NPC spellbook, I would appreciate it. Also, from this standpoint, it would mean that anyone could acquire any spell from a captured NPC spellbook (not just wizards who can scribe them into a personal spellbook) - perhaps to be read into another personal spellbook at some later time...or just used as a scroll in another adventure.

Also, I am of the opinion that when capturable NPC spellbooks appear in scenarios, they should always appear as chronicle items and I think it is a gross error in chronicle sheet implementation that they are not included. If there is room to describe long boons or multiple sheets with things like land acquisition mechanics spelled out with hex maps (as in Emerald Spire, etc.), there is room or a way to list a couple of lines of spells from an NPC spellbook. I am always bewildered when encountering a spellbook that fails to show up on the chronicle.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to any corrections to my reasoning per the CRB for CORE campaigns or otherwise.

Shadow Lodge

Item Creation Feats, including Scribe Scroll, are not allowed in PFS. All magic items simply spring into existence randomly, (not kidding) or are occasionally unique oddities. Said Wizard NPC likewise does not have Scribe Scroll, so can not just make a scroll for you. Being a new, uncommon spell doesn't change that.

PFS limits what you can buy, or rather what is available to be bought, though it is notably a very artificial way. In Core, as far as I understand it, those spells simply do not exist to your character until that character finds them. Its pretty clear for Wizards how that works. Not so much for everyone else.

As to the Spellbook on Chronicle Sheets, Absolutely Not!!! Its only good for about 3 classes, 1 in Core, and that is something that should be written in when it applies, and signed off. Plenty of scenarios have multiple spellbooks, too much possibility for error, and not to mention APs/Modules, and I need my extra room for trophies and other notes.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Zan Greenshadow wrote:
If anyone can explain why the above is not a valid course of action per the CRB and Guide when encountering a captured NPC spellbook, I would appreciate it.

Certainly. Since the NPC wizard has not earned a chronicle sheet by playing a scenario, the GM can't certify (even if he wanted to) that the NPC scribed the non-Core spell. Therefore, the NPC can't add the spell to his spellbook or use it for any purpose.

Scarab Sages 4/5

The simpler answer is that the blog lays out the rules for each of the classes to acquire non-core spells. The blog is, in this case, the rule. The guide hasn't been updated with information about what is allowed in core yet, so until that happens, the blog is what establishes the procedure.

Dark Archive

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Plenty of scenarios have multiple spellbooks, too much possibility for error, and not to mention APs/Modules, and I need my extra room for trophies and other notes.

Out of the 100 scenarios I am familiar with I can only recall one scenario that has more than one wizard with a spell book, and even that is only on high subtier with 6 player adjustment (and even in that case one spell book is a subset of the other). I have clearly been very unlucky to miss out on the best scenarios for my wizard PC.

It is as likely in core as in normal mode that the best opportunities for scribing spells (non-core or core) from spell books comes from sitting down with other wizard PCs and very rarely from NPC spell books.

Yes, there is scope for error, but that already exists in normal mode. Generally you are lucky if spells scribed from spell books are listed clearly or at all, and it is done on trust (and never audited) - like most things in PFS.

I can understand that with CORE we want to be doubly sure that non-core access was done fairly but don't see how we can do this any better than the existing instruction from the blog to "Record any such spells learned on the Chronicle sheet, and have the GM initial the note."

This still leaves the issue of all the core spells scribed from any spell books in the scenario that you still have to take on trust.

The Exchange 5/5

Devil's Advocate: Are you saying that no scrolls are available for purchase in CORE PFS games even though all 1st level spells are always available per the Guide or otherwise purchasable based on Fame? That differs from my understanding. And, I disagree about spellbooks. All spellbooks should be shown on Chronicle Sheets and there is no issue with error. It's a very simple documentation task and a glaring omission in all scenarios where there are capturable spellbooks. Maybe when there's a spellbook, there should be a captured spellbook addendum. That would be a very simple fix to all existing adventures without needing to modify the existing chronicle sheets. And, since there are apparently so few, it would require minimal effort after making the addendum template.

Starglim: I appreciate the explanation, but it makes no sense to me. The GM running the scenario knows that the player has captured the BBEG spellbook and taken it to a Wizard to buy a scroll. There is absolutely no issue for the GM in knowing the exact origin of the spell, writing it down on a chronicle as a purchased scroll item and/or initialing that chronicle for the player.

Ferious Thune: Based on my reading, the blog post is limited and fails to specifically address the case I raise of creating a scroll from the captured spellbook for later use through the standard interfaces available in PFS. Also, it appears to countermand the CRB and Guide, which are supposed to be the references for CORE. CRB: Purchase Scrolls: Allowed, CRB: Learn spells from spellbook to create scrolls: Allowed, CRB: NPCs and/or even Trained Hirlings: Allowed, Guide: PFS Always available items (scrolls, potions), Fame purchases: Allowed, etc. Scribe Scroll or not (which is also in the CRB), there is no rule that I am aware of blocking the steps I have outlined above to generate a scroll from a captured spellbook, even if it means it gets processed through a player's faction via the fame interface for upper level spells because of the cost.

If John Compton or another developer would like to clarify why it's not possible to buy scrolls in PFS from a captured spellbook (for CORE or NON-CORE spells), that would be great. I know I would appreciate the extra clarity. Or, maybe they will say that it is possible which would be even better and be coherent with existing rules and mechanics.

As always, thanks for the discussion and replies to my question.

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Paizo Blog: Learning Exotic Spells All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

See Also: