Not yet! TPK won't be for another two or three rounds.... I really hate being so low on the initiative order!
The real reason fireballs are almost useless is because you have to be first in order to use them unless you want to burn your party members! Boom! I'm sorry....
@GM Heat: Hope you don't mind me answering rule questions if they pop up. I like keeping things flowing if I happen to know the answer in my brain grimoire.
That doesn't sound good. Guess I better go look at the game thread and see if we're all dead....
Kalig's attack! Kalig's attack was good!
And not at all, Danton! These games are a collaborative effort and if you have an answer handy, you shouldn't hesitate to share. As you say, keep things flowing.
Granted, I think the rules regarding 'being in melee' with a swarm specifically are a bit fuzzy - I mean, obviously you're in a melee when you have twenty rats climbing all over you - but I agree with your conclusion nevertheless. Yeah, you can throw a splash weapon like alchemist's fire at a swarm without incurring that particular penalty. You have technicality on your side (how very Abadaran of you!), and the rats cover such a big area that I can justify this in my mind's eye. Looking at the map, Quintus would take 1 fire damage from the splash no matter where he throws it, though.
As for another rules query posed by Quintus, I had hoped this would be clear by now - it was covered here, here and here - but a swarm of tiny creatures such as rats can be harmed by weapons. Slashing and piercing weapons do half while bludgeoning weapons do full damage.
I'm here but I'm going to wait on the results of the AoOs before acting. If they wipe the swarm I'll probably ready a Command, otherwise I'll check the map and see if I can burn it safely.
Well I tried. That was a solid effort lol.
I'm sort of infamous in my circles for being a terrible die roller.
We got this though!
@Kalig: I've seen my share of deadly 1st level encounters and this one is pretty nasty. The nausea saves are nuts!
Also don't forget that some of those halls might still be Haunted, we don't know the triggers and how long they're disabled for.
I feel I have to divert blame away from poor Mike Shel who originally wrote Dragon's Demand because this encounter is all me, warts and all. As I wrote in the recruitment, I don't shy away from changing battles, events and even plot points if I think it better serves my own vims as GM. And yeah, I definitely intended this battle as the party's baptism by fire. I'm glad (?) it's having the intended effect even as I cringed in writing that last post.
To be fair, it's not wildly beyond suggested encounter design or anything! If anyone's curious, it's a matter of two CR 2 creatures. Tough, but doable for a group of six newbie PCs. Or so I hope! I actually did away with some other monsters down here that felt too much like 'filler'. Maybe that added to me feeling justified, even obliged, in making a rougher encounter. I have faith in you!
Also, a slight rules quandary I ran into in writing. Danton readied an action against an invisible enemy. Nothing wrong with this. But when I envisioned this crazed rat attacking him, I realized, "Hold on, which resolves first? The readied attack or the attack that provokes the readied attack?" Rules for readied attacks clearly state that they should go off first, and yet this doesn't mesh with invisibility's text which says that it only drops when the invisible's attack is resolved. I ultimately landed on a bit in the section on stealth which describes how any action done by the unseen against the unaware must always take precedence, which also made the most sense in my mind. Hope this feels justified.
And yes, Quintus, you absolutely still have your standard action!
I imagined the Ready would work like that, the trigger was if he showed up, so he couldn't have shown up until he attacked.
It all makes sense!
Also don't feel bad about the encounter I'm loving it. It's suitably creepy and gross and it's perfect in terms of ambience.
Swarms just be swarms. It happens!
I don't know what is supposed to happen per the original material. I'm enjoying the game! The party is slowly coming together I think. Yes, this encounter was tough. And hell YES, nausea is hard, even at higher levels. If we survive (I haven't read the posts since my last) we will probably need to back out and rest. I don't think we're on a clock. ??
Time to read the game thread. BTW, I'm at a hotel in Seattle with REALLY bad Internet. But I'm trying to keep up.
I feel I have to divert blame away from poor Mike Shel who originally wrote Dragon's Demand because this encounter is all me, warts and all.
Well thanks for clarifying that as I truly had sworn off buying anything by Mike Shel.
Since I made a comment criticizing the combat design, and you said you did it, I figure I owed you a better explanation of my own thoughts: One of my main concerns is we need time to gel as a party before we can get into something this tactically complicated (in my opinion of course). I respect others disagree, and some people like adventures to be constantly on a razor's edge.
ETA: This game overall has been very fun so far and this one scene does not impact the positive impression I have of your narrative style.
As I wrote in the recruitment, I don't shy away from changing battles, events and even plot points if I think it better serves my own vims as GM.
I rewrite stuff all the time for the games I run, especially to adapt it to a particular party make up or to make the plot make more sense. No issue with that as a rule.
To be fair, it's not wildly beyond suggested encounter design or anything! If anyone's curious, it's a matter of two CR 2 creatures. Tough, but doable for a group of six newbie PCs.
The following is not to argue, per se, but to point out some game design factors for future consideration:
Two CR 2 creatures together equals CR 4. Which is considered "Epic" difficulty for a APL 1 fight. In other words, it's the CR intended for a boss fight that you have after you've adventured a bit and found some extra loot. Now, at 6 party members, we are APL 2 (which makes a CR 4 fight merely "hard"), but we are effectively down a PC because Khavel's player has disappeared, which lowers that APL back down to 1. Moreover, the community widely acknowledges swarms have too-low CRs for what they are capable of, particularly for low level characters. I would argue this fight is at a minimum CR 5.
I want to make very clear that I don't want to retcon the fight, I accept things as they are, and I completely understand what you were trying to do. I am very glad some folks are enjoying themselves. Again, just noting the design factors for whatever it's worth.
Or so I hope! I actually did away with some other monsters down here that felt too much like 'filler'. Maybe that added to me feeling justified, even obliged, in making a rougher encounter. I have faith in you!
Your faith in us and what the die roller does--and the d20 is notoriously swingy because no bell curve applies to it, and we are not high level enough to get some crazy bonuses stacking--are two very, very different things. We'll see what happens, but I at any rate I'll be working finding a good roleplaying reason for my pragmatist druid, if she survives, to do anything other than obtain several barrels of oil to chuck through the hatch, and throw in a match, and then walk far, far away from this town. Which is my problem, choosing to play a character who is too practical for her own good, and I expect I'll have to reconfigure my sense of her to make her more agreeable.
Now, at 6 party members, we are APL 2 (which makes a CR 4 fight merely "hard"), but we are effectively down a PC because Khavel's player has disappeared, which lowers that APL back down to 1.
Given how the fight ended, I want to stress how I didn't read this before writing that last post. But yes, I did my best to bot Khavel in the three rounds of combat, trying to make him contribute in whatever way I thought made sense. Because you're entirely right, I did intend this fight around APL 2 and so it didn't feel 'fair' to the party to disappear one member just yet.
Although given Star's lack of posts, it's true that you effectively were APL 1. That I do regret.
Still, I think things went moderately well! Really, the deathblow came earlier with Danton's Command. From there you had two rounds to wail on the already wounded ratling, all but guaranteeing victory. I am sorry you didn't enjoy the encounter, though. If it helps, you may be glad to know I'm not planning another one like it anytime soon.
I'm not sure anyone cares to know this, but the ratling's initial offer - the whole "show me some pain and I'll help you" - was genuine.
But on a negative note: Khavel. As you say, he's been AWOL some time now. I messaged him a while back, but he never responded and I see that another game of his, one he GMed, is also abandoned. It's a shame, but I think we can consider him gone. I've botted him until now - again, for the sake of that APL 2 - but I'll be looking to retire the character somehow at the earliest opportunity. Suggestions as for how are welcome.
I'm not sure anyone cares to know this, but the ratling's initial offer - the whole "show me some pain and I'll help you" - was genuine.
There was no way Quintus was going to submit to that so such an offer, genuine or not, was a call to battle for him.
But on a negative note: Khavel. As you say, he's been AWOL some time now. I messaged him a while back, but he never responded and I see that another game of his, one he GMed, is also abandoned. It's a shame, but I think we can consider him gone. I've botted him until now - again, for the sake of that APL 2 - but I'll be looking to retire the character somehow at the earliest opportunity. Suggestions as for how are welcome.
I saw the same thing when I looked up Khavel's main ID and any other campaigns in which they were participating. I'd agree he's probably not returning after an absence this long unless it was health related and they've since recovered.
It sounds like the group is angling to rest soon and you could go with the old, 'Khavel receives an urgent message from his father...' and he leaves to attend to family matters.
Which goes to the next question: Do we continue on with 5 or bring in another player?
Star posted Tuesday so I wouldn't count them out yet.
Not a matter of enjoyment, GM Heat, and I recognize it is always very, very hard to find the right balance for what works for your story and the party. I only said anything about the encounter first of all because it struck me (as a former Paizo freelancer) as not something typical of how they would structure an adventure and thought I was remarking on a dev decision, not yours. But that does not mean it is bad, and the previous post was just to clarify my thinking since I'd inadvertently stuck my foot in it from the start. I do think we were very dependent on the dice for surviving, but thank goodness for that crit--and yes, indeed, the excellent of everyone else in the party. Danton's magic/channeling was especially useful and Niccan did great leading the charge in particular, but kudos to everybody for getting through it.
Re: Khavel, I remember the player posting something a little while ago about a difficult family situation, and I worry it has gotten worse. :( Totally understandable, but we should carry on without him at least for the time being. My suggestion would be that he volunteers to go back to report to Lady Devy that things are more dire than expected and he gets tangled up by offscreen plot issues from there. If he is able to return we can assess from there, and if he isn't he can be more easily put on a bus.
I don't think we need to recruit more players as we still have a cleric and a druid--and given the player's circumstances were emergent, I don't want to write him off permanently just yet. In the meantime, Kalig can adjust her spell choices in future for more healing. I hadn't memorized anything for healing other than goodberry (which is her domain spell so she automatically always has it) but I can plonk in some other healing if needed going forward.
Re: the "show me pain" comment, I saw that the offer was probably genuine, but I interpreted it as an invitation to contribute to torture and Kalig wouldn't submit to a request like that either, nor do I think most folks in the party would.
Niccan never even considered accepting the torture. Get tied down with hundreds of rats licking their chops (whiskers) waiting for their next meal? NO!!!
Niccan was pissed too! All those poor rats that he abused. He can't talk to them but some of his family did. They worked the docks so there were always rats around! Poor simple misunderstood animals.....
And Niccan has a little bit of healing available too. CLW is one of his first level spells and he can cast 2 first level spells.
Appreciate the thoughts, Kalig, well put as they always are.
As for replacing Khavel, no, I wasn't planning on it. It's never a happy prospect, but I recruited for six players because I fully anticipated there to be some attrition. Been on the boards long enough to know that's just a sad fact of these games. I'm perfectly happy to keep the game going with the party as is.
Should you ever read this, Khavel, please know that I meant what I wrote in our PMs and that you're welcome back anytime.
On another note, with summer over my work is going to eat more of my schedule. I'm still very much aiming for a daily post at the very least, but I hope you'll forgive the odd hurried prose.
Same with me, with the summer ending it's back to teaching kids maths so they can play games like this.
I'm fine with a smaller party, truth be told it may be selfish but it makes my job easier. Plus I am liking the dynamics we have so far. It's neat to have a more lawfully aligned party, which I don't see all that often online.
Also I don't want to get too personal, but my grandfather has just entered palliative care today, so if I do disappear for a handful of days, I will be back, but it's just life happening.
I will try my best to keep you all in the loop but I may not have the space or power to.
Sorry to hear that, I hope your grandfather has all he needs to be as comfortable as possible.
Same with me, with the summer ending it's back to teaching kids maths so they can play games like this.
I'm fine with a smaller party, truth be told it may be selfish but it makes my job easier. Plus I am liking the dynamics we have so far. It's neat to have a more lawfully aligned party, which I don't see all that often online.
Also I don't want to get too personal, but my grandfather has just entered palliative care today, so if I do disappear for a handful of days, I will be back, but it's just life happening.
I will try my best to keep you all in the loop but I may not have the space or power to.
Sorry to hear that. :(
All the sympathy, man. Goes without saying, but take whatever time you need.
Sorry to hear Danton. Having been through all of that (and now I'm the grandfather) I can say that the good memories stick with you longer than the sad ones. Focus on them to ease the sad.
We'll stay here if you need any time. I always say Real Life trumps any game.
@Danton. The monster summons are separate from my spells. They come at the cost of Judgements, Discern Lies, and Slayer. It gets really cool though at 5th level when my summoned monsters can have a teamwork feat that I know.
What is the dotted line on the map that leads back to that machine with the electric trap? I notice it also points to the trough with the green sludge. ?? Do we see a chain or cable?
Ah, sorry! I've completely neglected to mention that, thanks for asking. Remember that ridge that goes along the ceiling, the one you found to have chain threaded through it ultimately connecting to that contraption hidden behind another secret wall? That's the one. I drew that dotted line to represent the chain's route along the ceiling before disappearing into the western wall.
I've added a little list of NPCs the party has encountered so far to the campaign info tab. Might be helpful as the game moves forward and you interact with ever more people in the village. I'll try to keep it up to date.
I've added a little list of NPCs the party has encountered so far to the campaign info tab. Might be helpful as the game moves forward and you interact with ever more people in the village. I'll try to keep it up to date.
Thanks for the assist! :)
I will be slower than usual during the long Labor Day weekend. Will post when I can, but please bot me if necessary. If combat happens, if Kalig can't get into melee and/or a fight erupts with undead, she will cast magic stone and fight with her sling.
If the party decides to rest, she needs to do her heal checks to help with her and Khavel's disease saving throws when they kick in.
Will do. Wish the yanks among us a lovely weekend. Enjoy one of your far too few holidays!
Thanks. Though, regardless of what the internet would have you believe, we have a reasonable number of federal holidays. ;) some employers like stores are allowed to make customers work on them (according to FLSA I think they have to get overtime), but I work for a university which observes all federal holidays but two, and we earn two "floating holidays" for those. This is separate from vacation earned, which IIRC maxes out at 4 weeks.
Yep! What Kalig said. And I've enough experience to know that I don't have to work on my time off....
Thank you for better informing this filthy commie who only knows your fair land through what moving pictures leak through the iron curtain. Будьте здоровы.
On the topic of healing, knowing what your remaining resources are might help in reaching a decision. Unless I'm mistaken (always a possibility), you have two cure lights - one bottled, one Danton'd - and a goodberry left. Everyone but Star is also at full HP with aforementioned skald missing just one point.
Danton also made a certain Know (nobility) check earlier that might be relevant here, but I'll leave that for him to chime in with. Any thoughts on who's carrying the potion of CLW?
There's an iron curtain in the UK? My god, are you looking through Margaret Thatcher's skirts? ;)
(That is a a bad joke about "the Iron Lady." yes, I know ol' Thatch hated the "commies" even more than Americans are supposed to.)
Kalig's suggestion to go back is based less on available healing and more on, if we are reaching a point of no return, perhaps we ought to return while we can.
Also, Kalig needs a restful safe spot to do the treat disease action for her and Khavel, which is far less likely to lie beyond the magic door guarded by the giant pit of acid. (And cure spells do nothing for disease.) And I can't speak for the others, I know I would be able to focus on the adventure better if we can get that taken care of first.I would like to not be taking Dex and Con damage for the rest of the adventure, especially since Con damage is a fast track to death.
I know you are anxious to keep us moving, but we could do a quick summary/handwave and get back going. Plus it gives you an option to put Khavel on a bus so you don't have to keep botting him.
It's been an exhausting few days but now it's the last stretch.
I should be back up and running by Wednesday / Thursday.
Please continue without me and I will catch up when I can.
All the best, Danton. Take your time.
I know you are anxious to keep us moving, but we could do a quick summary/handwave...
Alas, I am incapable of anything but dissertation posts (seriously, it's a problem).
And I was totally mistaken. You have another two CLWs in Star who, sadly, is looking increasingly likely to join Khavel on that bus. An awful shame, really. The player has been very prolific on the site and has quite the history here. Can't help but think it a loss for the forums.
As for heading back to town, even fully healed and with so many resources available, I'll admit it's not what comes naturally to me as a player. Resting between every encounter is the sort of thing that makes a GM feel forced to overdo said encounters to compensate. I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic. I'm not in the habit of 'punishing' players for what they consider the right call with the information given them. It's just behavior that puts me in an awkward spot as GM.
But I neither can nor will stop you. Come what may, those decisions are worth nil if they aren't yours. Just know that the dude behind the screen is on the PCs' side.
I understand your impulse GM Heat but disease, particularly Con loss, at 1st level can lead to the failed Fort save 'death spiral' Kalig mentioned.
And now that it appears we're down 2 PCs our 'margin for error' has shrunk considerably.
Kalig's post gave me another idea for why to go back to Belhaim: Letting people know where we're at and what's happening. Quintus is guessing about how the two door/magic mouth/pass phrase system works but *IF* he's correct the PCs might find themselves locked in and they could leave a 'If you don't hear from us in X days, take this map, follow it, and open the door and hopefully we're still alive' message with someone in Belhaim.
I understand your impulse GM Heat but disease, particularly Con loss, at 1st level can lead to the failed Fort save 'death spiral' Kalig mentioned.
Oh absolutely. It's just that even those penalties aren't due until the next day at the earliest and the PCs know this, having managed at least two good heal checks on the disease.
But yes. Your call.
Wasn't aware of the 2 CLW's from Star. All I remembered was the one potion of CLW, and who has that? Ah. Nobody so I'll carry it.
My concern besides the disease, was as Quintus stated, "Close the door and state the pass phrase". And does that lock the door so we can't get out? But, I don't think we would squeeze the whole group in, so maybe that's not too serious of a concern except for Niccan and whoever is with him, ??
I understand your impulse GM Heat but disease, particularly Con loss, at 1st level can lead to the failed Fort save 'death spiral' Kalig mentioned.Oh absolutely. It's just that even those penalties aren't due until the next day at the earliest and the PCs know this, having managed at least two good heal checks on the disease.
But yes. Your call.
Your description of the time it took us to build the bridge suggests we are already approaching later in the day anyway. Which means we are only a matter of hours from the disease triggering. Continuing forward would mean we are likely to hit end of day while we are in the dungeon--assuming there is a lot more dungeon to explore. My sense--which could be wrong, but don't know how IC to get a better sense--is we have a long way to go and that if we continued further, we'd be stuck in the dungeon when the disease onset triggers.
PCs often make decisions about what to do next based on urgency. Right now, the sense of urgency I am experiencing--and I am biased--is the disease my character and Khavel are experiencing.
I do not feel a sense of urgency about finishing the dungeon in a particular period of in-game time. The best sense I have is the foreboding evil will be there for us whenever we get to it.
If I have the wrong sense of urgency, then I need some more guidance.
I am not the kind of player who insists on PCs resting everytime they cast a spell. As a GM, I hate that. I have not suggested once we are low in resources, so I don't understand why you would insinuate otherwise. I just want to be able to make my Heal check and saving throw so on can get on with it and not stall the game anymore over it so we can finish exploring.
TL;DR I want to give you what you want but can't right now because I am afraid the disease is going to get in the way. I need help figuring out how to move forward in a way that makes sense for my character.
PS I am so sorry if I am being a pain in the ass. all of the above is to clarify what I was thinking. Just don't want to die.
All fair points. As indicated earlier, I really don't like guiding PCs quite so heavily, the primary reason I did so here being that I thought people had a false impression of how much 'fuel' they really had left in the tank. Whatever the party decided on, I at the very least wanted to make sure it wasn't based on misunderstanding. Hence why I brought up resources.
As for laying that topic at your feet, I can't recall nor find where I've done so, directly or indirectly. If I have, I apologize. Blinded by Thatcher's skirts perhaps.
PS: You're no pain in anyone's ass and even if you were, you are all my pains. That's what I signed up for.
"Blinded by Thatcher's skirts"
Am I dead yet? I haven't read the game thread yet!
Am adding in my campaign world a demiplane of Acheron called "Thatcher's Skirts" now.
Heat, I know... so, so, so well... it's annoying when PCs seem like they need too much handholding to pull them through an area. I ended a whole campaign because players weren't engaging at all and just waiting for me to push them through the dungeon. At the same time, I recognize if players are clueless--and we will be--sometimes they need a clue anvil to get going. (It just shouldn't be all the time.) I will endeavor not to be clueless, and apologize for when I am.
Let me make a request straight up: the thing that's been holding me back is just wanting to find the right time and safe space to make the Heal check to add the +4 bonus to the Fort saving throw when disease onset kicks in. The issue is technically, you do not attempt this check until right before the subject attempts their saving throw.
So could I do a treat disease check *now*--fluffing it as ongoing infection prevention treatment, like cleaning and changing bandages and maybe providing some willowbark for fever--so as to (hopefully) be able to get the +4 bonus later when it's time to attempt that saving throw? That would negate the need (for now) for rest or leaving the dungeon.
We're going to need two saves to recover from Filth Fever completely, so to be able to get the jump on this so it isn't overshadowing the whole crawl would help a lot.
Let me make a request straight up:
Absolutely. Sounds totally reasonable to me. Heck, the rules for when exactly such a heal check is supposed to be done, especially in the case of diseases with onset periods of days, are nebulous as is. It's always up to us to make the rules fit the narrative and vice versa, and your suggestion certainly fits in my mind.
There's a room coming up within the next post or two (it's literally just around the corner) that would fit the occasion.
Actually, on a purely selfish note, this intersection of mechanics and fluff - how to present game mechanics within a narrative context - is among my very favorite parts of these games.
Awesome, thanks.
Also, forgot to post this earlier: kudos to Niccan and Quintus for the puzzle solving! Sorry I got confused about who was where; I thought Quintus had gone with Niccan for some reason.
No selfishness on that, I don't think... I agree working the mechanics to narrative and vice versa is a big part of the fun of RPGs.
ETA: Danton, good luck with your travels! I just returned thankfully from mine.
Niccan doesn't have a funny tale, or a funny tail.... ;-P I honestly didn't even think about that when I posted it!
Look at all of you, puzzle solvers extraordinaire.
This is *not* a suggestion, just a "share my similar experience" note: the thing where the person who aided another always rolled higher happened so often in my RL gaming group, I just houseruled that people have to agree they are aiding another first, and then whoever rolls highest is the main roll and the other rolls are the aid that have to beat DC 10. Otherwise it never failed that the aider would always roll 20 and the person making the attempt would roll no higher than 5.
See, that's sensible.
But not as funny.
See, that's sensible.
But not as funny.
Very true!
I agree. It's just sooooooo funny! I recently had a situation where my character had a +15 modifier. Nobody else in the party had better than +3. 5 rolls. My roll was a 1. Everybody else rolled better than 15 making mine the lowest roll! A 1 on a skill check isn't an auto-fail, but the adjusted 24 was too low for success.
Hello everyone.
I’m really sorry that I haven’t posted anything for a while now. I wasn’t expecting this volume—or length—of posts, and unfortunately it’s not something that I can keep up with.
I’m going to have to bow out of this one. Thanks for having me along while I lasted.
Sorry to see you go, but thanks for letting us know, and hope you find a game with a pace that better suits you.