GM_Panic, how would ABP work with natural attacks for transmutation effects and such? I've chosen to step away from slayer after noting someone else put forth a rogue and after realizing I was building it incorrectly. So now I'm back to looking at an elven alchemist.
As far as I can tell, your ABP 'Attunement" Would move with the transmutation, and if need be limit it, if you had claws and a bite, you have to say +3+3 Claws or +4 bite but not all three. As each claw is an attack in and of its own, as a weapon. If the forms N-Weapons have other abilities like 'trip' or 'graple' then just as other PCs you have to pay for that from your ABP weapons Bonus [flat rate of +1 unless its clear it needs to be more]
Seems fair. Makes transmutations with more than two attacks less interesting, but it is what it is.
The reason I asked was that I've been looking at transmutations and the alchemist feral mutagen. The feral mutagen in itself gives two claws and a bite, but my rolls lean more towards dexterity than strength. With that in mind I was looking at weapon finesse and the agile weapon ability which I could apply across the attacks with an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
With that in mind, I believe the aforementioned feral mutagen would work out to something like 2x +2 Agile claws and an Agile bite.
Seems fair. Makes transmutations with more than two attacks less interesting, but it is what it is.
The reason I asked was that I've been looking at transmutations and the alchemist feral mutagen. The feral mutagen in itself gives two claws and a bite, but my rolls lean more towards dexterity than strength. With that in mind I was looking at weapon finesse and the agile weapon ability which I could apply across the attacks with an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
With that in mind, I believe the aforementioned feral mutagen would work out to something like 2x +2 Agile claws and an Agile bite.
Because claws and bite are light weapons, they have the finesse ability and do not need the weapon finesse feat as per the section in the feat taxes under "weapon finesse". Therefore, you can use your dexterity for attack and damage with them automatically if you so wish. They already are "agile." :)
Seems fair. Makes transmutations with more than two attacks less interesting, but it is what it is.
The reason I asked was that I've been looking at transmutations and the alchemist feral mutagen. The feral mutagen in itself gives two claws and a bite, but my rolls lean more towards dexterity than strength. With that in mind I was looking at weapon finesse and the agile weapon ability which I could apply across the attacks with an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
With that in mind, I believe the aforementioned feral mutagen would work out to something like 2x +2 Agile claws and an Agile bite.
Because claws and bite are light weapons, they have the finesse ability and do not need the weapon finesse feat as per the section in the feat taxes under "weapon finesse". Therefore, you can use your dexterity for attack and damage with them automatically if you so wish. They already are "agile." :)
I don't recall that giving the ability to switch damage to dex. I thought you still had to have an ability to do that.
Hmm, perhaps you are right? I assumed what I did because it renamed all the "light weapons" as "Finesse Weapons". I assumed that meant they were considered weapons with the finesse quality, allowing the rapier to join that group despite not being a "light weapon". I do know that on his goggle doc he specifically mentioned unarmed and natural weapons as always being finesse weapons.
Definitely no need for weapon finesse since it's taken care of through the Elephant in the Room variant. That covers dex as opposed to str for attack. That still leaves the damage changeover and the agile I'm referring to is a magic weapon special ability as opposed to the agile term they added in the documentation for Elephant in the Room. It's one of those confusing points in having multiple sources using the same word for different meanings.
So from what I've gathered, we are an established team. With that in mind, I may shape my decisions around some of the characters I see pop up.
So, with Int as my highest stat I know I should make a caster (and I have an elven magus halfway written up), but I keep coming back to this idea of like a clockpunk inventor from a magicless world as a gunslinger/fighter...
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Male Half-elf Swashbuckler 16
CG Medium humanoid (human/elf)
Init: +11; Senses: Perception +21; low-light vision, darkvision 60’, see invisibility
Speed: 30 Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan, Celestial
Defense
AC 34 (+8 Armor, +6 Dex, +3 Defl, +3 NA, +4 Dodge) Touch 26 FF 24
HP 204 (16d10+64)
Fort +13 Ref +24 Will +10 (+2 vs enchantment)
Immune: Magical sleep
Offense
Melee: +4 adamantine rapier +33/28/23/18 (1d6+18 15-20/x2) (+16 precision damage)
+3 to hit, +2 dmg on AoO, 14/turn)
[b]Ranged: dagger +28 (1d4+3 18-20/x2) (+16 precision within 30’)
BAB 16/11/6/1 CMB +20 CMD 30
Statistics
Abilities: Str 10 Dex 22 (28) Con 15 (17) Int 15 Wis 9 (11) Cha 18 (24)
SQ: Favored Class (Swashbuckler; skills), Deeds, Panache, Charmed Life (+Cha to save; 6/day), Nimble +4, Swashbuckler weapon training +3
Traits: Slippery, Fencer (+1 AoOs with swords), Vainglory
Feats: Skill Focus: BluffB, Weapon FinesseB, Weapon Focus: Finesse Weapons, Fencing Grace, Weapon Specialization, Quick Draw, Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Deft Maneuvers, Improved Combat Reflexes, Greater Combat Reflexes, Greater Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick
Skills: Acrobatics +28, Bluff +31, Diplomacy +26, Escape Artist +28, Intimidate +26, Perception +21, Perform (Oratory) +18, Perform (Sing) +18, Stealth +28, Sleight of Hand +28
Panache: 7/day
Deeds: derring-do (1 panache - +1d6 to Acro/Climb/EscapeArtist/Fly/Ride/Swim), dodging panache (immediate action, 1 panache - move 5’ as immediate action & gain +Cha dodge bonus to AC), opportune parry & riposte (1 panache & 1 AoO - parry incoming attack with own melee attack, if successful can attack back as immediate action), kip-up (stand from prone as move w/o provoking; spend 1 panache to stand as swift), menacing swordplay (can intimidate as swift action after successful melee attack), precise strike (deal +lvl precision damage w/ finesse weapons, 1 panache to double precision damage for 1 attack), swashbucklers initiative (+2 init, can draw finesse weapon as part of init check), swashbucklers grace (no penalty for moving full speed acrobatics through threatened/enemy squares), superior feint (std action; target denied dex bonus until start of next turn), targeted strike (see below), bleeding wound (1 panache; deal Dex bleed damage / 2 panache; deal 1 Str/Dex/Con bleed), Evasive (gain evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge), subtle blade (immune to disarm/steal/sunder CMB), dizzying defense (1 panache; swift action fight defensively for +4/-2), perfect thrust (full round action; resolve attack against touch ac & ignore DR), swashbuckler’s edge (take 10 on Acro/Climb/Escape Artist/Fly/Ride/Swim)
Combat Gear: potion CSW (2), potion lesser restoration
Equipment: 16th lvl abp: Resistance +5, Armor Attunement +4, Weapon Attunement +4, Deflection +3, Physical Prowess +6/+2, Mental Prowess +6/+2, Toughening +3
Mithral chain shirt (attuned), adamantine rapier (attuned), cold iron dagger (3), silver dagger (3), dagger (6), handy haversack, winged boots, spectral shroud, goggles of night, golembane scarab, ring of invisibility, ring of water walking
Coin 442gp
Description Rafael is a slim, tall half-elf of young appearance. He wears his sandy brown hair cut short and remains clean-shaven for the most part. He wears well-maintained traveler’s clothes in dark blues and purples, and is never seen anywhere without his basket-hilted rapier at his side. When it comes time to go on mission, he dons his enchanted brass and leather backpack, with a plethora of knives strapped onto bandoliers crossing his chest.
Background:Rafael was born into a wealthy family of minor nobles, the 4th son and 7th child overall. From an early age he showed exceptional promise in physical skills, especially when it came to swordsmanship. Two of his older brothers, Edgar (who was 2nd in line) and Mariano (who was 3rd) came to resent his natural talent and feared he may have been favored to inherit ahead of them. So, they set out to sabotage him and cause his early death (or at least drive him away from the family holdings) by convincing him to take up the life of a minstrel.
Surprisingly, Rafael found he had a beautiful singing voice as well as quick wit and an excellent memory. Combining that with his attractive features, confidence, and ability to defend himself if the need arose, he excelled in that role. Perhaps he did a little too well, attracting the attention of a Seelie Court fey princess by happenstance in a roadside tavern. Polite and kind, he managed to avoid all her traps and tricks until he finally goofed; he accepted an invitation to her bed. When she opened the door to the room, the world shifted as he stepped through the now enchanted portal, winding up in the land of the Lady.
So, with Int as my highest stat I know I should make a caster (and I have an elven magus halfway written up), but I keep coming back to this idea of like a clockpunk inventor from a magicless world as a gunslinger/fighter...
You get some decent bonuses from automatic progression that can help balance that build. You should do what is inspiring you!
@GM- are advanced armor training and/or advanced weapon training available for fighters or are you considering those alternative class features?
** spoiler omitted **...
psionichamster do you mind doing the 10 min background template I posted for your PC and also could you find an image of what you think he looks like and link it.
@GM- are advanced armor training and/or advanced weapon training available for fighters or are you considering those alternative class features?
As they are granted from a feat and not as an alt within class. If you have the Prerequisite(s): Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature. AND pay for the feat, I will allow this.
But remember things like
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex) The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class. The fighter adds half his weapon’s enhancement bonus (if any) to this shield bonus. When his weapon training bonus for weapons from the associated fighter weapon group reaches +4, this shield bonus increases to +2. This shield bonus is lost if the fighter is immobilized or helpless.
may still be nerfed by the ABP rules which sets out the Max bonuses you can have. This is for balance in the game.
Remember I will be picking 4 Balanced PCs, Mini-Max if you like but bear this in mind. I have tried high-level games before and been burned by a player having a PC who can do the whole game on their own. Other players just walked away as Uber-Mage skill monkey stat/save maxed magic to master + Army of underlings took over gameplay. I want PCs to have clear lines and to complement each other in a working team. So that all players and I can have fun as a group, playing at a high level. If one player can do all, there is just no fun in that.
There are feats that let you take advanced armor/weapon training options but if you read the base descriptions they’re actually available as a replacement for improvements to the base class feature. It sounds like you’re alright with taking them as a feat but not with taking them in place of the standard progression of the class feature, is that accurate?
Also, I doubt you’d have to worry about a fighter messing things up like that? They can get very good at killing things but without any kind of spells or anything they’re pretty unlikely to steal anyone else’s role, or amass their own army.
Yes if you take the feats that then opens them up to you.
Ok I am going to make a ruling here
Weapons that used dex not Str to cal Damage
Your going to have to pay for this in some way
Ether by using some of your ABP weapon attunement or the feat that grants you this. No getting this for free.
This is so we have an even playing field for all players.
Would Amulet of Mighty Fists still work for granting it to all natural attacks or would it only be for the ones that are attuned?
Ok let me clear this up as its becoming a bit of a mess.
To add your Dex in place of Str to weapon DMG
Simply use
Deadly Agility (Combat)
You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.
When wielding a weapon in your off-hand, Deadly Agility will add the same fraction of Dexterity as you normally would for Strength.
Now as Elephant in the room dose away with Weapon Finesse, so as per its outline here.
Gone. The “light weapons” category has been renamed to “finesse weapons.” Characters can choose to use either their dexterity bonus or their strength bonus to hit with these weapons, no feat required. “Finesse” is also now a weapon attribute like “brace” or “trip,” allowing a weapon in another category to be finessed (like the rapier).
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
So take the feat Deadly Agility and ALL you Natural weapons get DEX DMG in place of STR DMG.
Now with Weapon Attunement allocation [And the limit of ABP]
I will rule thus.
A player can use their Attunement allocation
+4 on one attack
+3/+3 on two attacks
and I will allow +2/+2/+2 on three attacks.
So if you had Bite/Claw/Claw you can have
+4 on just the bite say and none on the others.
None on bite and +3 on your claws
Or
+2 on all three attacks.
BUT NOTE BELOW
Weapon Attunement
The character can attune herself to any one weapon in her possession, and can change that attunement once per day. The attuned weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus at 4th level. At 8th level, the character can split her attunement between two weapons, granting each a +1 enhancement bonus. At 9th level, she can grant a single weapon a +2 enhancement bonus instead of granting two weapons a +1 enhancement bonus each. At 14th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +3 enhancement bonus or grant two weapons a +2 enhancement bonus each. At 15th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +4 enhancement bonus or grant two weapons a +3 enhancement bonus each. At 17th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +5 enhancement bonus or grant one weapon a +4 enhancement bonus and another weapon a +3 enhancement bonus.
IF you are Shape-Changing, you can only shift your Weapon Attunement from its attacks too or from it ONCE a DAY.
I don't think I can be fairer than that
Apologies. I feel like I hit a nerve. I was not trying to turn this into an ordeal.
My intent was to stay within the limitations of the rules you are allowing. Amulet of Mighty Fists allowed that as far as I could tell without the need for a new feat. I just wanted to make sure I was not missing anything.
Amulet of Mighty Fists
DESCRIPTION
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
As far as I can tell ABP does away with the need for this item, I can't see how it gives you DEX in place of STR for DMG?
How do you see it doing this?
Indeed, that is my bad. It's Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile magic weapon special ability.
I think as it says
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive
That will be hard to link with Natural weapons like a bite, like your teeth as well balanced.
Also, you will lose +1 on this per weapon but IF you want to pay for it from your ABP application you can. It's a +1 So it would be.
1 wepon +3 [+1 Agile]
2 Weapons +2 [+1 Agile] / +2 [+1 Agile]
3 Weapons +1 [+1 Agile] / +1 [+1 Agile] /+1 [+1 Agile]
Better off with the feat and keeping the Bonus to hit and DMG
To be honest I think we can draw a line under this now.
O I see now.
'This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.'
Is your thinking, that the Amulet of Mighty Fists With the weapon +3 [+1 Agile] will give ALL my unarmed attacks and natural weapons the TH/DMG +3 [+1 Agile] ?
Now, remember what I said about Mini Maxing if your PC rocks up with lets say 5 natural weapons attacks All multiple attacks and all with weapon +3 [+1 Agile]. Well now, how do you think I am going to react given my clear statements of a level playing field for the group.
The Above means ABP limit is for everyone. I don't mind switching STR DMG bonus for DEX, but the attunement Bonus is a hard limit for everyone.
Just want you to know.
Alright, the GM didn’t seem very fond of my gunslinger/fighter idea (and I was having trouble finding reference art that really fit my vision), so I went back to the drawing board. I’m working on a human arcanist instead. He’ll be focused largely on wind and weather and I’m thinking probably a fantasy solarpunk setting for his origin.
That sounds cool
Alright, the GM didn’t seem very fond of my gunslinger/fighter idea (and I was having trouble finding reference art that really fit my vision), so I went back to the drawing board. I’m working on a human arcanist instead. He’ll be focused largely on wind and weather and I’m thinking probably a fantasy solarpunk setting for his origin.
Well I just spent five hours looking for an image for my gunslinger/monk idea. My brain hurts.
Well, here we go, ended up as a single classed Lore Oracle.
I should have provided a link to anything which is not core.
We have some strong builds already presented so I was keeping those in mind, not to mention we are supposed to be following up Alpha team's failure. I was expecting we would want to come prepared for the various potential situations. Especially at level 16.
Perhaps this build as I'm envisioning it does push that power cap though, so I may review and look into something else. Just trying to figure out what I can do with my high dex and int to be effective. I was not sure if I wanted to deal with full casting. And while 100,000 gp is a nice amount, I felt that expanding/protecting a spellbook could eat into that fairly quickly.
We also are seeing some disparity in rolls which may lead to some trying to find ways to close the gap.
Yep I was clear no 3ed party stuff. I have yet to do a full check of PCs but if I find any 3pp I may have to rethink a pick
Gun slinger Munk 2
Thank you for the suggestions. I actually found on shortly after posting. Of course that picture inspired changes to by backstory, which then inspired changes to skills, feats and items, all of which interacted with each other.
So I'm rebuilding.
Player Submissions
Compleat
Sona Tanaka By snelss0.
Lilandra The Chronicler By andreww.
Not complete
Rafael, half-elf swashbuckler,
Make Alt, remove 3pp,10min background
I’ll post an alias later tonight so you can add my arcanist to the not-complete list. Also, I know you have a bunch of applications to read, and I don’t want to overwhelm you, so I thought I’d ask: how much would you like us to write about the world we came from, and would you prefer it as notes or a narrative?
The core thing with backgrounds is doing the 10 min background I posted
That gives me an understanding of your PC and hooks for the game.
Outside of that and for your own pleasure you can add as much as you like, as narrative or discretion or both,
I do like a good image as well, of PC and of your PCs home plane. Which some applicants have done.
Sounds very interesting.
This is the profile for Giant Halfling's arcanist. On Aethra (his homeworld) family names come first (like in many Asian countries IRL) so his given name, which he'll prefer to be called, is Solanis (or Solan for short).
Currently the profile is almost completely empty, but it does include some reference images for him, his homeworld, and the beings who invaded it.
Okay, here is Philo Pharynx' submission.
Viri is just your average pirate monk, raised by ghosts on an island with random planar portals.
Her homeworld is a pretty common D&D material plane.
So far, it looks like she is roughly on the same scale as the current applicants.
Love the image, nice PC background and lay out
Player Submissions
Compleat
Sona Tanaka Fighter 5/Rogue 11 By snelss0.
Lilandra The Chronicler Oracle 16 By andreww.
Viri Farthingdale gunslinger 8/monk 8 By Philo Pharynx.
Not complete
Rafael, half-elf swashbuckler,
[Make Alt, remove 3pp,10min background]
Eudamonia Solanis arcanist
{to be fulled out]
I have most of Solan's crunch done on paper, I just need to find time to get it into his profile. In the mean time, all of his reference images are posted (along with some notes on Aethra and the Kordak), and I have his 10 minute background in the profile as well (which took me way longer than 10 minutes, lol). I don't think I've ever used the 10 minute background format before, so if I missed something, or screwed something up, please let me know and I'll try to fix it right away.
edit: what should we do for languages? Between my Int and ranks in linguistics that I'll probably take I'm going to know a lot of them... I'm definitely going to take all the planar langauges but that'll only go so far. Are there going to be different forms of common, or some kind of world specific dialects that we can or should be taking, or should I just start filling up on racial languages?
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Oh, it took me longer than ten minutes to figure it out myself. I expect that it's called that because a GM can get a good idea of your character in ten minutes.
Do you allow skill unlocks for having sufficient ranks in a skill?
See OP on Unchained under 'classes', its clearly stated
Ah, yes. I did see that. I didn't know you meant the whole concept of unchained. I figured it just referred to the unchained classes. I thought I would ask. No biggie. :)
I still need to create tons of links, and do my shopping, but other than those things I believe my crunch is pretty much done. The current selection of spells prepared is sort of his natural default but I should, hopefully, have some freedom to adjust those once we know what the party looks like. Speaking of which, how are you (GM) handling adding extra spells to a spellbook? I mean, obviously I know how to do the free ones for leveling, but how do you want to handle learning more than that? Can we learn them somewhere in the Archive and just pay the cost to scribe them in our spellbook, or do you want us to pay something to learn the spells too? If the latter, how much?