Wrath of the Righteous for Paladins (Inactive)

Game Master trawets71

I would assume OOC that they were mimics, although with DR it seemed. And a TON of HP.

Our defenses really aren't much better than non-Mythic characters. We can use Surge on saves, which helps a bit, but we failed so many Reflex saves against the mimics, and Ian failed so many Will saves to the succubus. We have marginally better HP than non-Mythic, and no better AC. Yes, our damage output is better. Nobody was Smiting in this case, as I think the likely in-character assumption would have been animated objects (which are not usually Evil).

I most definitely want a challenge overall, over the entire course of the dungeon, but not every single fight need be that. In adventure design, the guidance is to usually have some "speed bump" encounters mixed in there. I imagine this is quite a big dungeon (based on the map) so I don't know how many encounters there are. Individual fights being harder and draining more resources (e.g. LoH uses) means that we are going to have to retreat sooner. I feel like I as a player err on the "push on" side too much since the "15-minute adventuring day" just feels unheroic.

Just my $0.02. As to monster abilities, Leothar is quite poor on Knowledge skills so is going to resort to "hit things" unless someone advises him otherwise.

They were animated objects, basically, right? With a special property that involved sticking weapons and people they attacked to them?

If you tell us the Knowledge check we can make to identify things and find out information about them, we can roll it and go from there.

I did say it was dungeoneering here to ID these guys. OOC Leothar is correct about the base creature but there was more to it. The HP were maxxed and any DR would have made that seem worse.

I think you hit two non speed bump encounters in a row. There a definitely some in here and I won't max the HP for those.

I haven't looked at your armor but there are 4 sets of full plate in here one of them magical if that helps any.

Leothar should grab some of that magic plate. Dadna's is +1.

By the way...I was thinking. Would it make sense for us to get some crafting feats? Right now, we are all somewhat low on the WBL. Looking at Dadna...I think that she is at about 10k gp (taking into consideration that she spent a mythic power for an upgradeable weapon). Leothar, taking Radiance into consideration...is about 10k as well? I haven't looked at anyone else, but I don't think that anyone is much about that in terms of gear.

At lvl 7, the WBL is 23,500 gp for a PC. So I think that all of us are abit of 10k short on gear. I'm not sure if this campaign is supposed to be short on gold, but I think that may be the issue.

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I think that an "easy" solution is for us to have automatic bonus progression. It would cure the problem of having a +2 ring drop, and everyone "needing" it. Or a +4 headband of charisma becoming a "big ticket" item that everyone would want. It would also mean that we wouldn't have to track loot, outside of special items (swarmbane clasps, radiance, any legendary items we choose to have from mythic tiers...)

It would mean less bookkeeping, and it would mean that we won't have to worry about "falling behind" or paying gold for needed items.

Alternate idea: Leothar has craft metalwork. Dadna has craft jewelry. What if he takes craft magic arms and armor and she takes craft wondrous items? Between the two of us we could get the group of outfitted. Our AC is all on the low end. It would help out in that, and feels very dwarven

I did say it was dungeoneering here to ID these guys

That would be one of the Knowledge skills we don't have. I think we were relying on Fley for that one.

At lvl 7, the WBL is 23,500 gp for a PC. So I think that all of us are abit of 10k short on gear. I'm not sure if this campaign is supposed to be short on gold, but I think that may be the issue.

Actually, Wrath of the Righteous is known for being high on the Wealth By Level side of things. I think we've done a terrible job of tracking loot, and I know for me I've spent quite a bit on scrolls. I don't know when the next time we'll be able to sell loot is, which would also help with our WBL.

I also forgot I had a wand of spiritual weapon, which would have helped in that fight a lot.

As for armor, I have that suit of Elven Chain from the previous room we looted, I just haven't had time to put it on yet. Leothar should definitely take that +1 Mithral Full Plate. How's Ian's AC?

This fight also made for a good example of the challenge of playing this as an all-paladin party. A room full of demons or demonic cultists? We go to smite town and start felling our foes left and right with obscene damage output. A room full of Neutral abberations? We're fighters without bonus feats and maybe slightly better saving throws.

I like ABP a lot, and as I have noted to Ian in a game he is running, it does NOT boost PCs' power in most cases. It limits the numerical bonuses you can attain, which I consider a good thing, and it removes most of the buying and selling from the game, which I also like. It's not as if the LOTR hobbits gathered up all the goblin short swords so they could upgrade their gear in Lothlorien. But WBL with shops, or even moreso WBL with crafting, will have PCs with higher bonuses. If there are few or no shops, and no crafting, or the PCS are far below WBL, ABP becomes a boost in power. I have a hunch that there will be enough gear in this Citadel to put us at WBL; AP writers are fairly attentive to that on a book-long basis, even if the distribution within a book is uneven.

Crafting takes time, and as you go up levels to make more powerful items, it takes more and more time. I am not sure the AP will permit us that luxury. It might (and Rings of Sustenance help). Thematically, it makes sense (especially for a Torag follower). Now, I had said that Leothar's "metalwork" crafting was specifically non-weapon non-armor - things like pots, sconces, railings - so as to make the Background Skills really Background. But he could learn. It's an option.

I think my first priority is to dedicate more feats and mythic abilities to defense. I was really just observing that while Mythic boosts offense quite a bit, I have been surprised at how little it does for defense (either AC or saves). I could maybe take Dual Path to gain Guardian abilities - those look like they would help a lot. And yes, he will take the +1 Full Plate.

We also do have Ian's abilities to boost our AC, although we didn't get a chance to use them in this fight.

The conventional wisdom on these boards is "The best defense is a good offense." I find that only partially true. It holds true if encounter design always lets you get to your opponents within a round (many encounters make that difficult), and if the GM doesn't inflate the monsters' HP in response to your overpowering offense (which he has). In that case, the result of having a good offense and poor defense is that the fights take just as long as they would with a balanced build (because of the HP inflation - the "optimization treadmill") and the PCs take more damage.

I'd like to get through the Citadel and then see where the AP takes us. The math probably does expect us to get to customize gear, perhaps back in Kenabres, or commissioning agents of the Queen to craft things for us.

Sorry I've not been giving more opinion during the conversation, I've been enjoying it but really don't have much to add.

To answer Ardriel's question Ian purchased + 1 armor and has a + 1 heavy shield.

did we learn what the bonus was on the "mithral full plate with Iomadae's symbol" I fine with Leothar claiming it. If we learn there is a benefit to having a Iomadean wear it we could swap stuff out.

It felt like DM Trawets's question was about making the challenges challenging. That's less important to me than the pace overall. If it's simple to tweak the combats and you enjoy it, do that. But if it slows down your process and makes it harder to want to post, don't do it. I'd rather play in a game that is moving where some of the challenges may seem too easy and some may seem too hard. Than play in a game that moves slow with every challenge perfect.

I am not a fan of ABP. I have never liked it and even didn't apply to some recruitments on here that I was interested in because it was being used. I'm not a huge fan of the magic mart either by the way. I started playing RPGs with AD&D, as I think some of you may have, and pretty much you used what you found. Now a good DM made sure you found some things you were interested in but not necessarily everything.

I'm going to try and prioritize speed over challenge somewhat. I won't be maximizing the hit points except in key battles. We will see if we can keep this moving more. Just let me know if I go too far in one direction.

I'm not a huge fan of the magic mart either by the way. I started playing RPGs with AD&D, as I think some of you may have, and pretty much you used what you found.

So true, so true...

My only comment about the ABP, which I like, is due to an article I read. I've assumed the article was right, if not then my opinion is skewed.

The article claim that use of the 'big six' is so pervasive that game designers keep that in mind when they build challenges. So, not only is it level of character but also magic items they posses. IE. if you don't have the big 6 you are behind the curve.

I hate the magic marts, it makes me feel like magic is no longer magical. But if the expectation of the big six is built into the game then the magic marts must exist. Unless you replace them somehow, the APB does that.

Now my assumption is that if an AP like this, doesn't have magic marts readily available, then the AP will provide some of those items.

I'm cool if you don't like the APB and I think it would be tough to introduce at this point, but I understand the desire to use it.

This is why I was maxing the hitpoints. You didn't drop him but I doubt he will survive the round.

I actually didn't have a problem with maxing hit points in most of the encounters. I don't think maxing hit points in this encounter would help the vrock very much - it's a single enemy alone in a room against 4 paladins, most of whom have evil outsider bane weapons. If we weren't mythic, we'd probably still have a good chance of wrecking it in a round.

The big issue with the mimic encounter was that 1) we didn't check if they were evil for smiting, 2) they had DR that wasn't overcome by cold iron, and 3) they had a thing where weapons stuck to them after one attack unless you rolled a Reflex save (which, as paladins, we suck at). Legitimately, it was the perfect encounter for stymying and challenging a party of Paladins. I imagine most of the rest of the encounters in here will more likely play to our strengths.

Leothar also got very lucky with his hit on the Vrock.

Mirror Image is a fantastic defense. One of the strongest defensive spells in the game, and one that paladins have few ways around. True Seeing is not on our list, and Litany of Truth grants a Will save. Dispel Magic would be our only option, and that not for a few levels. I suppose there is the "close eyes and take the 50% miss chance" option which may be unreasonably cheesy.

More often than not, Mirror Image will buy a foe at least a round.

So, a GM question. Based upon wrath of the righteous video game, I'm assuming that we will hit mythic 3 once we finish taking the fortress city.

At Tier 3 I plan to take Enduring Blessing 1. It takes a single spell that is 10 min/lvl and makes it 24 hours. An awesome ability, even if it makes me sad that it is only for a single spell.

Would you approve [url=https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Veil%20of%20Heaven]Veil of Heaven[/ulr]? It's from Advanced Race Guide, Aasimar only.

"You surround yourself with a veil of positive energy, making it harder for evil outsiders to harm you. For the duration of this spell, you gain a +2 sacred bonus to AC and on saves. Both of these bonuses apply only against attacks or effects created by outsiders with the evil subtype. You can dismiss this spell as a swift action to deal 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per paladin level to all such outsiders within 5 feet. A Will save halves this damage."

Seems to me to be a great use of the ability, given the campaign setting.

a quick question, What was the magical bonus on the armor Leothar put on? I don't remember reading it.

Oh, I just assumed it was +1. Could be higher.
Leothar also has -2 AC from Enlarge, and +1 from Power of Faith, so AC 21.

And Ian absorbs half of the damage from the Vrock's attacks, correct?

And Ian absorbs half of the damage from the Vrock's attacks, correct?

Yes, but sadly only the Vrock. Depending on what that armor modifier is will determine if his next step is:

The armor hasn't been identified. For now assume +1 and I will make any adjustments needed.

I believe I said racial specific things might be used so I guess go for it.

If it is in fact +1, then the third half-orc hit exactly, and Leothar is at 26/82 HP (took 15 from the Vrock and Ian took 15; took 41 from 3 arrows).

@GM, please do let me know if the third arrow hit or not, since I need to figure out if Leothar should stand and keep fighting or else withdraw. He cannot take another round of those arrows even without considering what the Brimoraks can do. AC is a bit better now with Holy Shield up from Ian, but even so the Brimoraks cast Fireball as I recall.

Edit: @Ian, if you are good on Mythic Power, then I might ask for you to spend Mythic Power as a free action for an extra standard action this round, so that I can get a LoH from you. I'm trying to figure out how I might do that "Mythic Power for extra action" trick in whatever way will most likely keep me alive. Figuring out the right combination of actions is tricky when so many things are swift or immediate.

You were hit 3 times. Also you took 14 points from the vrock as did ian. Half rounds down in pathfinder so half of 15 is 7 if I remember correctly.

Also by my calculations your ac is 22: +10 armor, +1 dex, +1 deflection. I thought you had a shield but I guess not. SO you only took 2 arrows.

Leothar is Enlarged (net -2 AC) and was within Ian's Power of Faith aura (+1 morale bonus on AC), making it 21. He does have a buckler but he doesn't have it on; even if he did, he would lose its AC bonus for the round after making a two-handed attack.

Anyway, I am waiting to see if Dadna and Ardriel can drop the Vrock or at least pop some images. I have a pretty good idea what I might do that should help.

The Vrock has 5 images left, right?

Four images and the vrock

Leothar is dead next round if he full-attacks the Vrock. The archers and brimoraks will kill him.

Leothar can use the extra Mythic action to dismiss Enlarge, then cast Resist Fire, use LoH, and take some sort of move action. That's probably his best option. He needs HP, AC, and fire resistance - defenses. If the Vrock's images are depleted, he might be able to take one attack at it (via Fleet Charge, which means no LoH, or via Amazing Initiative, which means no dismissing Enlarge). He really needs his standard for Resist Fire.

I had to read the Mythic rules again to jog my memory that we could do that extra action. We can all take extra standard actions via Amazing Initiative, as long as that is not casting spells. If this AP counts on us making good use of the Mythic abilities to succeed, well, we could certainly make more use of the extra standard actions.

It would have helped Dadna close with the Vrock faster and get an attack the previous round. It could let her full-attack this round and then ready the Vital Strike. Or, move to us (to Ian's protective aura), cast a spell or LoH, and then use the extra action to ready a Vital Strike.

It could let Ian add some healing of his own to Leothar's mediocre 3d6, or use one of the other abilities he mentioned (Inspiring Sword or Dazzling Display).

It could let Ardriel take an extra shot, or a shot in addition to a spell.

Now that we are down to 4 PCs, we have a lot less leeway and the fights are much harder, so I think we really need to make use of the full range of mythic abilities.

I would ask people to look at Amazing Initiative (which we all have) and consider how an extra standard action might help. I would rather not do this level of OOC strategizing but here I think it is a rules element that we are not familiar with.

Trying to follow along with discussion. Since our attacks are reasonable, Ian will use dazzling display to try and debuff.

As for communication, would a discord channel help?

Possibly, yes. I'll burn a smite on the Vrock so I don't have to deal with DR, then pump some arrows at it. Gonna have to remember that extra action.

EDIT:

Four images and the vrock

Good news, should now be ONE image and the Vrock for Dadna's Vital Strike.

Bad news, I'm pretty sure I wasted that smite.

a quick question on an opinion here, I'm going to use dazzling display this next round, it's a full round action, if Ian uses his amazing initiative he'll get a free standard action, but it says we can't cast a spell, is Lay on hand is supernatural, so it doesn't count as a spell, or spell like, correct?

LoH is ok to use on amazing initiative.

Leothar moves back and prepares his defenses as Ian moves to the front and gives his allies protection. Ian Holy shield is a std action so you can't do dazzling display until next round.

Sorry, I posted too quickly.

Not a problem. I just like to be clear why I didn't use that action yet. It does speed up the next round a bit if nothing changes. I will need 2 reflex saves though.

Ian, you will need to make 2 fort saves, DC 22, to see if the levels are permanent.

I'm going to speed things up a little and slow them down. We seemed to bog down a bit at the end of that combat.

There are enough magically inclined people to identify everything you found.

Brimoraks: 2 longswords
Gargoyles: Nada
Archer: potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of divine favor, potion of shield of faith, masterwork chain shirt, masterwork composite longbow (+2 Str) with 13 arrows, masterwork falchion, elixir of hiding, 26 gp
Vrock: Nada
Succubus: Nada
Armory: adamantine battleaxe, 50 +1 arrows, an arrow of human slaying, a +2 breastplate, a +1 keen longsword, a masterwork composite longbow (Str +2), a masterwork flail, a mithral heavy shield, and a suit of +2 elven chain
Secret Vault: 3 X masterwork full plate
Armor of the Pious: This gold-plated +1 mithral full plate armor
has images of Iomedae’s symbol etched into its immaculately gleaming surface. The armor requires 24 hours to attune itself to the wearer and her patron deity, after which point the images on the armor shift to match the symbol of the wearer’s patron deity (or remain associated with Iomedae if the wearer doesn’t worship a deity). Thereafter, once per day the armor’s wearer can offer a prayer to her deity (or Iomedae) as a swift action to increase the armor’s enhancement bonus to +2 for 10 rounds. For this duration, the armor also grants a +2 sacred bonus on saving throws. A paladin wearing armor of the pious can use her lay on hands ability one additional time per day; a mythic paladin wearing armor of the pious also gains one additional use of mythic power per day.

Now to slow things down go ahead and level up.

Sorry for not moving things along faster, I have been on vacation with the family.

Will level up soon.

Does the Restoration scroll remove all negative levels while they are temporary, but only one once they become permanent? If so, better to use it sooner rather than later.

Hope you had a good time on vacation.

As far as restoration that is my understanding.

I think I have the math right, changes for Ian at level 8:
+9 HP
+1 BAB, Fort, Will, Str
+ 2 to Lay on Hands, (one from LoH, on from PoF)
Power of Faith: At 8th level, the nimbus of light heals the paladin and her allies, curing of them of 1d4 points of ability damage, as per the spell lesser restoration. A creature can only be healed in this way once per day.
Divine Bond: @ + 2
4 skills: + 1 to Diplomacy, Intimidation, Linguistics, Lore (worldwound)

I still need to sort out which language.

Hospitaler Paladin 8
+1 Str
+9 HP
+1 all saves
+1 BaB
Channel now 3d6
+1 LoH and now 4d6
Aura of Resolve (At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects)
Agathion Bond upgraded (I’ve never used it yet! I should be better about that)
+1 lvl2 spell

I think that covers if?

Restoration is also on the Paladin spell list, so any of us can use the scroll.

Level Up
Str +1
HP +6
BAB +1
Fort +1
Will +1

Skills: 2 + 2 Int +1 FCB = 5 Skill Points
Diplomacy +1
Knowledge (arcana) +1
Sense Motive +1
Spellcraft +1
Use Magic Device +1

Background Skills: 2
Craft (jewelry) +1
Craft (bows) +1

Class Features
Aura of Resolve

Spellcasting
+1 2nd level spell/day

Leothar's level-up:

+9 HP
+1 BAB, Fort, Will
+1 Cha (which then gives additional +1 to all saves)
+2/day Lay on Hands (one from level, one from Cha)
LoH increases to 4d6
Divine Bond increases to +2
2 skills: + 1 Knowledge (Religion), +1 Perception
2 background skills: +1 Knowledge (History), +1 Craft (Metalwork)
+1 2nd-level spell slot
Aura of Resolve

There are 3 doors left just need to know which you are attempting and how.

BTW I got a PM from Agna asking to be moved to inactive.

Leothar wants to go up the tower, so that is the double doors around the tower clockwise (the south-facing set).

Sorry to hear about Agna. I found rdknight to be a great player in other campaigns, but Mythic isn't for everyone. As to replacements, I think we feel the Trickster absence the most (Fley), but a Guardian would be good to have too.

I am open to bringing in people but I don't think an open recruitment is the way to go.

Oh I agree on that.

What is the plan. I'm waiting on y'all. I need some rolls on whatever doors you are going to or if you are going to look for a key let me know where you are heading to.

As Ian moves forward and turns to round the corner a large minotaur charges at him from next to the door but misses him. He can now see another one flanking the other side of the door.

HOw is it he didn't see them? Did he notice where they came from?

You were never anywhere where you could see the western part of the room due to the walls and columns. There were both next to the double doors.

I think Dadna may have brought you back up to full health Ardriel.

Dadna healed Ian, not me. I'm honestly in rather good shape, as long as I do a better job of keeping at least one melee person between me and the enemies.

Did Ian's attack finish off blue?

Dadna are you good on a LoH, or should Ian lay hands?

Sadly it was a swift action to do smite evil and it is also a swift action for lay on hands. I figured that, given how she was at so few hp anyways and her AC is not up to this job, it was better to focus on offense. A dead demon can't attack. I think that the best choice we have is to kill them, and use our resources to heal up afterwords.

Heck... I might actually (finally) have a use for her divine bond to increase her healing!

Dadna you should be down now at -2. I noted you had missed the damage from a spell that went off doing 6 points of damage when you used your last lay on hands.

She has corruption resistance against evil. Would that have blocked the damage?

It was a Sound Burst, I think.
Also, the extra standard actions that Mythic allows could make a big difference in a fight like this.

Sorry I am out of the fight.

It was sound burst.