GM BB's First Shot

Game Master baggageboy

Trouble in a small town leads to an interesting proposition.

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So guys, you can chat a bit in character if you like, or I can shift us forward if you guys want. Rhiannan is a fairly small town/village, but if there's anything you want to do before leaving for Blackstone let me know.

Hey guys, we're still figuring out our pacing, but is there something that we are waiting on? I don't want to push it we want to maintain a slower pace, but I also don't want to languish too long.

Let me know how you're doing :)

Mayor Fellstone is a level 3 Antiquarian with the expanded inspiration talent. I just forgot to roll his inspiration against Sorina. Just so you know where the 1d6 came from, it's not fiat.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Not that it would have helped on the first roll. But I guessed as much...seemed very much like expanded inspiration.

That said: Sonira and Sorina will actually play somewhat fair...BUT...they can mentally communicate.
That means a.: they know each others cards, and b.: by that can extrapolate what cards are left.
Depending on the card game we play, that can be a pretty significant advantage.
as in, they would support each other and know when to fold or minimize risk, or when to press their chances.
That, and one of them is good at bluffing and the other at reading bluffs - information they would share, too.

I suspect they may not usually be allowed to play at the same table, but if they do, the Link (which is Ex, so non-magical mental communication) would likely provide a significant circumstance bonus, depending on the game.

As said, I do expect they won't get to use it often, and right now it's just a friendly game, but I figured it would probably be good to bring that up before it may matter at a later game.

I've though of that, and you will have time time at the same table, but there will be several tables at least at the start of the contest. I am still trying to decide how to model the gambling contest as a set of skill checks, and when you and your "sister" are at the same table you will get a bonus to both of your checks. The adventure has a set of rules, but I don't like them very much. Especially since there are now four player contestants.

One thing about the twinned summoner. So a summoner normally has a glyph on their forehead and the eidolon has a corrosponding one any time the eidolon is summoned. I don't want to impose that on you because it ruins the flavor of what you're trying to do, but it's the usual sign to an opponent that the creature us summoned and could be dismissed (aside from the icreadibly odd monstrosities that usual eidolon's are). I don't know how often it will come up, but can you think of a well flavored replacement that could be the thing that someone notices to realise that one of you must be an eidolon? If we can't think of one it will be ok, you don't have to have a glowing rune on your foreheads

fluid fey-touched Dreamlord

I have to say that I actually wondered about that, too.
The Twin eidolon gets the Skilled(Disguise) Evolution with a doubled bonus to impersonate the Summoner.
TI figured that WOULD be kind of pointless if they have a big glowing rune on the forehead. Like, yeah, you get a +16 bonus to pretend to be your summoner, but everybody with visual perception can instantly see that you are actually the Eidolon.
That was why I did not even bring it up. It seemed nonsensical and an omission that the lack of a rune was not pointed out for the archetype -
but you are right, actually they BOTH would have the rune.

Alas, that can be concealed by mundane means. They could wear a headband/scarf. Or simply 'disguise' over it, like with a rubber forehead. Or a painted Tattoo. In fact, they could have some glowing tattoos because magic ink. The rune would not stick out then.
But I admit I missed that both get the rune, so working something out there would be preferable. I'll think about it a bit.

Additionally, to keep that illusion, there's additional opportunity costs:
a.: You cannot pick out any evolutions that alter the Eidolon physically. (so no Wings to fly with early...)
b.: You have to mirror the equipment, at least in looks. (I have lower armor AC because of weight. They Eidolon with higher strenght could have 2 more AC by wearing a heavier set of light armor)

Agreed. I don't want it to be burdensome, but think on it. It's a reason someone might try dismissing your eidolon which needs to always be a risk, it being one of the balancing factors for basically giving summoners a second character to play.

fluid fey-touched Dreamlord

Well, earliest available Dismissal is as Level 4 Spell at Level 7 Cleric.
If we run into an opponent like that in the near future, my eidolon getting dismissed is one of the least worries i'll have.
(Plus he could only deduce that EITHER of us is an Eidolon, not which there's still that chance for him to mess up.)

(Also, at Level 4 Summoner Level 2 spells come online, which allow to Summon Eidolon right back. Theoretically, with even more oomph because the summoning works with Augment Summoning(but fails to bypass other defenses) - and while I do not plan on using the standard action SLA to summon monster a lot, if she gets dismissed, it's a very logical response. So I am not sure I agree it's a balancing factor. It takes an action and forces a response, but hardly has much effect overall)

Hmmm maybe you are right. Either way it's not something that needs to be decided either way for quite a while. But it's something to think about.

fluid fey-touched Dreamlord

(That said, other Class Features or companions are also not so easy to get rid of...*grins at Nelly*)

But yeah, I misinterpreted things by not reading correctly - so that one is on me.
I think I'd like to go with a mix of the previous suggestions:

1.: Fire Ink is specifically called out as being useable for Tattoos, but that's in the new race guide stuff for Ifrits, and it stands to reason that Glowing Ink could be used in much the same way. I would like to have a few of the Tattoo's usually covered by clothing be Glowing Ink Tattoos instead - including a forehead Tattoo that seems identical to the Rune(so also is there when the Eidolon is not).

2.: Cover it all up mundanely. Varisia draws heavily on Gypsy/Roma/Sintis, and they do have Headscarfs and Bandanas as traditional female Garb. So I would like to mundanely cover the forehead with clothing, hiding the rune...(an option specifically called out in the Eidolon Entry.)

So it's there, but regularily, would not be visible. If they do take off the headgear(or undress), then theres that glowing rune, but there are other glowing tattooes looking like runes on other parts of the body as well, making the exact nature of it less obvious.
(Even if someone knows about Eidolons, they are usually not able to look like a specific other creature(...This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature... ) - except for Twinned Summoner and Eidolon.)

That should all be according to RAW, while not messing up the concept. It is mostly mundanely hidden, and even in situations where it's not hidden, they have a reasonable chance to use their great Bluff to pretend it's actually just a matching tattoo. Thoughts?

Sounds good to me :)

fluid fey-touched Dreamlord

Glad to hear it.

Just to clarify, he's not gathering the items he agreed to lend us again, right? We had no chance to memorize the list, look at the other scroll, consider the potion.
Not jumping on the stuff was a means of not being greedy but it seemed a given that he would leave it with us.
Do we have to interrupt him to make sure he does not pack up everything?

He is taking the item's he said he would lend you, you haven't agreed to his proposal yet. You are free to stop him.

Ok, so I now have built a few more of the more prominent citizens of Rhiannan. You have been in town long enough to have heard of them at least and have met some of them. I will probably add a few more, we need some prominent Craftsman.

Mayor Gurald Fellstone: Educated middle aged man respected for his keen wit. He can be a bit touchy though.

Ben Jorgan: Innkeeper/barttender. He recently inherited the ownership of the inn from his previous employer when he passed away.

Julius Clarke: Interested in Sorina and Sonira. Known as an up and coming young guardsman. The fastest on a horse.

Valen Cradock: Head of the guard. A strict leader, but amazing in battle. Known to kill gnolls with a single strike of his lance.

Carina Meeks: A kind hearted old women who acts as the town's healer. She has lived in Rhiannan all her life and stands with the guard/militia when the town is threatened.

HP: 7/7 | AC: 16 / T: 11 / FF: 15 | Fort: +3, Ref: +1, Will: +2 | CMB: 4, CMD: 15 | Init: +1, Perception: +0 (Darkvision)

Some of those seem familiar :)

Also, in a grand bad timing, my kids managed to get me ill. I am currently taking it easy across most games - but aye, especially with new ones it's important to keep moving, so I'll make sure to post tomorrow
Just figured I could stop by explain the delay.

No worries Sorina, just wanted to bump it a bit. If you are sick we can take some time. Or Fred and Kasit can get to know one another better.

Sorina, I was going through your sheet for other reasons and I noticed something I'd forgotten to call out. You have 4 wrist sheathes. I know that there is no rule RAW about how many you can have, technically you can have as many as you want, but let's keep it to one per arm.

HP: 7/7 | AC: 16 / T: 11 / FF: 15 | Fort: +3, Ref: +1, Will: +2 | CMB: 4, CMD: 15 | Init: +1, Perception: +0 (Darkvision)

"But we have 4 arms...?"
Both of the girls raise their hands to show their sheathes. Each having one on each arm, for 4 total.
"Or did you mean to imply I would get my own starting money to outfit myself with?" - one of them smiles at the GM.
More seriously: The only thing I only bought 1 unit of was sanctified rings, which are sold in a pair(and totally just for show and to keep up the charade because they would not even work properly) - half ot the stuff is 1:1 transferred to the Eidolon - and listed in her profile. I even bought a second Pickpockets Outfit, because the game only provides for one 'starter' Outfit free of charge, meaning my Twin would have needed to be naked otherwise.
Also, just so it's written somewhere: CLW in buckler hand sheath, Acid in Weapon Hand sheath.

I realized that was probably the case sometime in the middle of the night. Nevermind. Carry on.

Sorina, are you ready to move forward?

So, I've been working on my world building, and I want to update a few things.

Iron is a semi-rare commondity on Kandaria. It isn't so rare that we need to adjust the prices of items (that would be a book keeping nightmare) but it will color the culture of the people's who live on the island. The two biggest sources of iron are from the dwarves and from trading with "the continent."

The dwarves in order to keep the humans and Halflings from encroaching into their lands in the mountains struck a deal with them long ago. They agreed to provide the humans with some iron, but the amount available to the human nation's it limited. They also trade the human nation's many semi presious gems in exchange for grain and wool. These gems and wool are kandaira's main exports to the continent, iron products as well as luxuries are the main imports. The dwarves have also sent a few of their kind to live among the humans to serve as emissaries and spies.

One way that Kandarians have adapted to the lack of iron is by utilizing bronze in many places where it will perform fine and refusing the amount of iron used in weapons.

Halflings run mines in the sky islands and other smaller hills/mountain ranges extracting the tin and copper needed.

The group Sorina comes from are simply called gypsies. The caravan's of the gypsies travel the length of the island from the half elf city all the way to the southern tip of the island. They are known for the jewelry they craft, the garish colors they wear and are often thought of as thrives. However they move free between the nation's because they facitiate trade and the passage of news among the villiges of the interior. They as a whole revere Desna as their patron goddess. Reviewing a steel starknife is a sign of the passage from childhood to adulthood. Aside from starknives (which are precious) the gypsies often use atlatls, and slings to take game during their travels and in defending their caravans from gnolls. The wagons they travel in are ornate sold swood structures pulled by tamed aurochs.


HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Ready to move, will post shortly.

A lot of detailed world-building. Would be a pity if that was wasted on a one-shot... *grins*

Sorina wrote:
I did not say something about Lord Kent. But the Mayor approached us in a tavern and even sat down to play cards. We MAY have been the only ones there, but unless he walked in the door and made Jorgan lock it up, there could have been someone else wandering in - thats why I figured it's not entirely secret.

I understand, but consider the job something pretty quiet. The mayor did explain why he can't have his people do the job because they would be recognized and he also explained that Lord Kent is sort of a ruler over this region. It's certainly something that should be handled with discression, at least form the mayor's perspective.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

It's not like I will tell everybody we meet that we're on a mission for the Mayor and what it entails. But you did, above, clarify that Carina supports the Guard, tends to their wounds, etc. - she may well have a personal interest in the recent raid.
That and she is the one providing food and lodging to the twins. If they may be gone for a few day or weeks, and eventually come back(or not), then she deserves to know. And she should not suspect something fishy is going on because of their secrecy.

On the whole, Sorina felt fully justified in telling her host. If the Mayor had been more careful or arranged for a meeting rather than come right to them, she may see things differently.

Note that I am not arguing, only explaining the position on which I based the actions. If those actions come back to haunt me in some way, I am fine with that - but logically, in-character, it makes sense not to keep it a secret from the sweet old lady that lets me crash at her place.

And at Jorgens now, I specifically added that Kasit and Fred were the only ones there ("finding Kasit and Fred alone at breakfast") so that we could speak freely and speed things along, rather than first extract them from the breakfast buffet before we can agree to find the Mayor.

You're fine, and Carina would understand that looking into the raids does mean looking into Lord Kent simply because she's well informed and quite savey. Mostly I was pointing it out for clarification. I did not mean to cause undue worry

Here's the list of items that were stolen:

- Desna statuette
- Gem-studded longsword
- Mayor Fellstone’s books, journals, and maps
- Rune carved amulet
- Silver statuette of an elven maiden

Guys I'm going to drop. Just not feeling it. Have fun storming the castle. Junior can just wander off distracted by a squirrel or something.

Sorry to here that Junior. Thank you for letting us know.

Edit: With Junior deciding to leave this is a good time to do a check in. We've been laying the groundwork for this adventure. How is everyone feeling? Feel free to shoot me a pm if there's anything you don't want to discuss all together but are concerned about.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Sorry to see you go, Junior.

I am fine and looking forward to the game.
Admittedly it's weird pretending to have 2 'full' characters when only one is, and as it's a new situation, I am still adapting to it.

That said, I am not sure if with only one other PC it's a good idea to run them like this. I feel I will either "neglect" them(by combining their reactions in one post) or take too much screen time(by posting separately or even faking interaction between them). With more people, that would feel less of an issue. So feedback on that would be good.

That is something I've been thinking about as well. Initially this was slated to be a small party adventure, and the twinned summoner idea has been intriguing, but I do worry about one player getting twice the attention. Part of the premise is that no one realizes your eiolon is anything other than your sister, which leads to certain problems like you getting 2/3 of the loot in a "three" character party. I hadn't really thought through all the implications probably as well as I should have.

I haven't come up with any really good solutions to the problem, but I also hate to not allow the idea which seemed so fun to play with.

Kasit, what do you think?

HP: 7/7 | AC: 16 / T: 11 / FF: 15 | Fort: +3, Ref: +1, Will: +2 | CMB: 4, CMD: 15 | Init: +1, Perception: +0 (Darkvision)

2 things:

1.: I did not expect a loot share...she did so far act as independent character because that would be part of the whole ruse. For the record, one thought was that she could sniff around where she's not supposed to be, then evade trouble by being sent back home if e.g. she finds herself trapped or about to be found out.
In other words: I would have expected to let the others in on the "secret", eventually. Since they cannot share magic item slots, there would then be quite a natural selection in loot distribution, even if the Twinned Eidolon is treated as an equal.

2.: I originally had plans for both an Unchained Rogue/Wizard(Illusionist) going into Arcane Trickster via Accomplished Sneak Attack as well as a Mesmerist.
I kinda dropped those when Juniors player originally stated going Rogue/Fighter, and decided on a 2/3rds caster because an extra body is worth quite a bit in small parties(as is not being vulnerable in melee).
(Mesmerist was subsequently not chosen because I figured that would be more universally useful for different campaign concepts - as in, more flexible - but would work great as well).
Up to now, it would be easy to transition out, make them REAL twins, and only one of them signs up for the tournament while the other operates on the outside(as NPC) and saves the money. Her personality, background and general idea would remain identical. Just putting that out there.

I do think that a Twinned Eidolon would be fun to play like that, but I think it would be more fun in a larger group with more active characters. (In fact, it might be most fun if the Eidolon would be a separate player for the role) 3 players was borderline, and I figured it would be great to add a fourth body. So I'm throwing that out there. No ill feelings if you consider it better I switch(Sorina is not a locked in profile yet, can still change her name)

I'm fine either way. As long as Kasit is ok. It's only the three of us now, so as long as we're happy we are good.

Well pending any word from Kasit I'll move us forward. We'll assume for now that Sorina is fine as is.

Wounds (0) NL (0) HP (15) AC (16/14/12) Saves (6/7/0) CMD (13) Kinetic Chirurgeon VMC Magus (1.5)

Great post. It’s multilayered with scenes, and I’ll get to it tomorrow

HP: 7/7 | AC: 16 / T: 11 / FF: 15 | Fort: +3, Ref: +1, Will: +2 | CMB: 4, CMD: 15 | Init: +1, Perception: +0 (Darkvision)

I'll post in a couple hours :)
Sorry, friday+weekends are often slow for me - at least for IC posts...OOC is a lot swifter.

So I put a slideshow on the campaign info tab. I haven't figured out how to put it on the put the link on the top of the gameplay thread, but I will.

Here's the link for your convenience.

Current Map

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Will post more later, quite busy at work atm...

No worries. I do want to go over a couple of points.

Splitting the party; yes it is easier when the party is all together, but one of the benefits of running such a small party is that splitting the party up isn't as painful as it could be with a larger group. Also this adventure was built around a single character playing through and is built for a rogue. To balance it I've bumped up the difficulty of potential fights, so fighting by yourself would generally be unwise, but here are still reasons to go 9ff alone.

TLDR:You guys are free to split up if you want.

Spell manifestations; so RAW these don't exist necessarily, but per the FAQs they do. Kasit's character is built around using a spell like ability in a sublte manner. Personally I don't think that that should be impossible, but per the FAQ there should be "manifestations." I do on the other hand understand why they didn't want you to be able to use any spell like ability, psychic spell, or silent and stilled spell in normal conversation without possible recourse. I propose that we create something of a middle ground. You can mask the manifestations per the conceal spell feat. Effectively everyone gets that feat for free. What do you guys think? I'm open to suggestions and comment.

TLDR: Conceal spell feat for everyone.

Wounds (0) NL (0) HP (15) AC (16/14/12) Saves (6/7/0) CMD (13) Kinetic Chirurgeon VMC Magus (1.5)

Well...right now Kasit can’t actually do anything subtle. He doesn’t have the wild talent until he levels up. Any telekinesis he uses now is purely fluff.

But when he does level up, he can use sleight of hand at range. I can’t imagine sleight of hand working at all if there is a manifestation. And it requires rolling dice already. Failure could quite well mean that his powers visibly manifested.

In essence...I can’t use any of my powers right now anyways. And when I can use them I’m already rolling a d20. Throwing in extra rolls would mean nerfing my ability to the point where it might not be worth attempting it. Rolling a d20 to not manifest and another d20 to sleight of hand would mean that it would just be better to sleight of hand normally.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Well, not quite.
I would assume you are still going through the motions necessary - the effect simply manifests at range but the manipulation is yours to do - as in, it would probably be similar to a spell with only somatic component.

But at close range. That means you cannot pick-pocket someone standing across the room staring at you. But you can try if he turns his back to you.

As in, someone watching you may notice you are doing 'something'.
Otherwise, things become silly when you are indetectable as source and could e.g. pickpocket without any fear of failure(so what if the target notices the attempt, nobody could ever know it was you).

Since I did consider Arcane Trickster: It's effectively quite similar to Ranged Legerdemain (Su) - An arcane trickster can use Disable Device and Sleight of Hand at a range of 30 feet. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check.

It's also "at will", but with higher DC, unable to Take 10, and he 'does' things normally, with max range 30 feet.(limited to disable device and sleight of hand)
I know Pathfinder does Power creep, but an identical ability (SLA, no less, so provoking AoO and subject to spell resistance) should not be "at will"/regular DC/can take 10/undetectable/30+ feet range(at level 8, thats 45 feet) - and any fine manipulation(including disable device and sleight of hand)

Well, magic trick (mage hand) allows effectively ranged Legerdemain for the cost of 2 feats and skill ranks in something you would want if you were going to it anyways, gaining it to a level 6 character and up.

Telikintetic manipulation does allow for a wider range of actions, in gives examples of disable device and sleight of hand, but it leaves it open to much more than that

I'll have to think on it. There are methods of avoiding detection even without conceal spell and Sorina has pointed out.

In general unless you guys are opposed I think either way I'll still give everyone conceal spell. I know it's a feat, but it's mostly a skill based feat subsuming what should really just have been skill uses to begin with.

As far as whether Telikintetic manipulation should be easy to notice as really spells, I'll kill this over some more. Maybe conceal spell DC's should be set so that it's harder to notice sla's and aimilar. I do not want to basically need the ability into uselessness

Edit: I think it's important to remember that the kineticist is much more limited as a class in choices, and choosing aether limit's the combat capability if the character. This sets a certain opportunity coat to telikintetic manipulation that needs to be considered as well when comparing that ability with other similar methods of doing the same thing. Sure he can get it at level 2, but he has to give up a lot to get there as opposed to any caster at level 6 with 2 feats to burn.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Your call.
But if you empower psychic casting over what it already has going for it, I will very much re-consider going for Mesmerist myself.

That's the rub, I don't want to make psychic caster extra powerful. I'll have to ponder on this.

Wounds (0) NL (0) HP (15) AC (16/14/12) Saves (6/7/0) CMD (13) Kinetic Chirurgeon VMC Magus (1.5)
Sorina wrote:

Your call.

But if you empower psychic casting over what it already has going for it, I will very much re-consider going for Mesmerist myself.

(1) First of all, it isn’t casting.

And unlike spells, there is also nothing about the ability which says it causes any sights/sounds/etc. Only gather power has language about that. So it also feels like this is adding a nerf onto the ability by making it into a spell when it is not. I mean...Spells have verbal and somatic components. Something I’m not seeing for this class ability.

Kind of like for a mesmerist. I’d argue that their glare isn’t a spell. They just glare. So no manifestation, as it isn’t in the rules. But their spells are just that...spells. So they would need conceal *spell* for that.

(2) I chose the class for the ranged sleight of hand. Right now I have 2/3 BaB, target full AC instead of touch, have a max range of 30ft, can’t fight in close combat, and my heals hurt me.

And with conceal spell, the DC to catch me is 15+level+Cha. So at lvl2? A DC17 Perception check. Against a lvl2 enemy with Wis12 they’d have +6 Perception. Or a 45% chance to catch me using my powers and that’s before I roll sleight of hand. Against a higher level target? A much better chance.

And if I decided to use it while cheating at cards...the entire table would get a check. Meaning near certainty of being caught. That’s not a risk I’d ever take.


I don’t want to have an arms race for effectiveness or be called overpowered. I also don’t want the defining character trait to become so risky to use that it never gets used.

Perhaps for conceal spell, it could use Dex instead of Cha? That would raise the DC to 21. It’s still a 25% chance to be caught, which I think is still really risky for the only good thing I can do. But at least it wouldn’t become so much of a liability that using it would be folly.

Because to be honest? I still won’t be happy, as if I knew that this would be counted as a spell I wouldn’t have made this character. As even with a (best possibility) 25% chance of being caught, it would still be more effective to do a normal sleight of hand whenever possible. But the game started, it makes no sense to remake characters, and I’d rather find a middle ground.

Kasit, you hit on a very important point. Telekinetic Finesse is a supernatural ability not an sla. I was conflating the two and that lead to the inaccurate conclusion that there would be manifestations; there are not. You do not have to worry about that. Sorry for creating trouble where there was none.

As for whether or not casting subtly should be easier or not. I think for now we will play it as the rules are. Manifestations exist for all spells and spell like agilities, and can be concealed if one pays the feats to hide them. I don't like it personally, but if it isn't that way it buffs psychic casters quite a bit. Especially an E8 world.

Sound good to everyone?

Edit: This does lead to another question though, what is the DC to identify a supernatural ability? A witch could conceivably just slumber people in ordinary conversation. How would one recognise the cause? How hard would it be? Either way for Kasit's slight of hand they'd first have to notice something happened then beat whatever check to realize how it happened. I'll have to research a bit.

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Not an arms race at all.

Wild talents state they are usually Spell-Like Abilities(as is Telekinetic Finesse - Element(s) aether; Type utility (Sp))
This is based on Psychic casting(as all Occult Caster Classes), which contains emotion and thought components rather than verbal and somatic.
Otherwise, it follows the rules for an SLA: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
Despite that, SLA provoke. The general consensus is that you are "zoning out" and leaving yourself vulnerable.

That said, Supernatural(SU) in comparison: These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.

Since you mention the Mesmerist stare: Besides being SU(and a Swift Action), there's also this passage: The mesmerist can remove the memory of his stare from the target’s mind; The creature doesn’t remember that it was affected (nor does it realize that it is currently being affected) unless the mesmerist allows it. The hypnotic stare is a psychic effect, and relies more on the mesmerist’s focus than the target’s perception of his stare. It can’t be avoided in the same ways a gaze attack can.

That said, Mesmerist spells ARE psychic spells, and work exactly like a psychic spell-like ability. While a spell, they are also based on thought and emotion components. So no waving hands around, no speaking. Just spending a standard action to make the thing happen. Purely mental.
And people would STILL get a spellcraft check to realize what just happened, and attack the caster who provoked.

That is the standard rules for SLA and casting.
I am not saying you should be nerfed, I am saying if this operates different from RAW in this world, I want in on it. Mesmerist is a enchantment and illusion specialist. Getting to use those things without everybody getting to realize what is happening would be awesome. A chance to charm someone in a crowd, or creating an illusion of something happening without the other 10 people in the room rolling spellcraft?
Would be wonderful.

That said - maybe we are approaching this from the wrong side: what WERE you hoping to do if that is the basis for the character? I can only imagine few situations in which ranged Sleight of Hand would be more useful in a game of cards than regular Sleight of Hand - dice, significantly more, although it still takes a standard action to activate and would most likely ping on detect magic - so just sticking to altering your own throws with regular old sleight of hand seems safer. So what were you hoping to do with the ranged ability?
Alter other peoples results at a reasonable but not overwhelming chance at being detected?
(Giving everybody at the table 2 checks makes using it too problematic. But not giving anybody a chance to realize what is happening is equally problematic, of course.)

So basically were did you want to go, and be able to do what? Maybe we can reach there in some way without breaking too many things - like, make sure that the reasonable thing you wanted to do still works, without altering or breaking the whole system in the process.
Hence the question how the range thing was supposed to work out - otherwise we could say simply having the ability gives a flat bonus to your own sleight-of-hand checks, with no extra checks involved...?

Wounds (0) NL (0) HP (15) AC (16/14/12) Saves (6/7/0) CMD (13) Kinetic Chirurgeon VMC Magus (1.5)

The character concept was someone who plays the role of a healer, while using telekinesis to pick pockets and steal minor. Far from charming people, reading minds, was just that. A psychic pickpocket. Where most of the effects would be purely for flavor, and could be replicated by a normal use of the skill. The only advantage being that in some circumstances he could do the check without using his hands. And as I saw it, the bonus gained from that is offset by the penalty of people noticing kinetic powers in action.

Which is why the discussion of spellcasting and the like went over my head. And why comparing this to secretly charming someone didn’t seem to really add up.


Kasit is playing cards with three people. Sorina needs a distraction to sneak away. Kasit notices that Mr. X, a loud and obnoxious dwarf, has his coin purse on his left side. Mrs Y, a halfling, is sitting there. Kasit is across the table. He uses telekinetic finesse to move the coin purse from the dwarf to the halfling, and then yells ”Hey! She just stole his coin purse!” Mrs Y would be surprised. Mr X would be livid. Everyone would stare and Sorina sneaks away.

In doing this I imagined this just using the sleight of hand check.

SoH: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (16) + 8 = 24

Is there a bonus for him being across the table with his hands to himself? Yup. But someone could see it floating over. Someone could see a look of intense concentration on his face, or him staring oddly as he made it move. All of those would play in if he failed his Sleight of Hand check.

That is the kind of shenanigans I imagined. Something unique to the build that would open up options for problem solving not available to the like of a wizard, for example. But if it manifests? he’d need to hide the spell *and* make the skill check. Twice the chance for failure. At least, given how many people could theoretically notice him “casting a spell.”


So, I get where you are coming from. And I wasn’t trying to sneak in an advantage or break the game. Just to try something new

Dadgummit! I really need to slow down and think before posting.

Ok so let's make sure that we are all on the same page as to what the RAW is.

(Sp) = Spell like ability
(Su) = supernatural ability

- Sp do per the FAQ have manifestations.
- Telekinesis and Telikinetic finesse are Sp

So RAW these would require some sort of ability or effort to conceal their use else people notice you are "casting"


Now options to mitigate this:

- Play it as it is. This means that Kasit can't use the ability without either a feat tax and extra risk of failure, or must find find another way to hide the fast that he's effective casting a spell.
-This limits the concept that was desired and doesn't sit super well with me from a personal preference standpoint.

- Remove spell manifestations completely. anything without components becomes unidentifiabke.
-This buffs psychic casters a LOT in intrigue type situations making them a lot more powerful. To me it makes some sense from an in world prospective, but it drastically shifts game play balance.
I don't want to do go this route.

- Keep manifestations, but give everyone conceal spell.
-This has many of the drawbacks of both of the solutions above. It buffs psychic caster considerably but it still leaves Kasit unable to use his ability very often.

-Another proposition. What if we say that psychic components creat manifestations that are visable. Kasit's ability, and spell like agilities don't have components, and so aren't detectable. This buffs sp abilities, but doesn't buff psychic casters compared to standard casters. Soring would get a buff as well from the summon monster sla not being detectable.

-Another another proposition. Psychic components have menefestations that must be hidden same as normal caster, but everyone gets conceal spell for free. So SLA's and sp which don't have components are harder to identify than normal or psychic spells. But there's still some chance that they can be caught.


HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

Instead of altering ALL the SLA's, it would be easier to simply make this one talent(Telekinetic Finesse) into an SU.
And then add that it allows to suppress the manifestations of Basic Telekinesis by accepting a single point of Burn that cannot be reduced to 0.(Basically channeling the manifestation inward, not venting it outwards)

That would only alter this interaction and allow Kasit to do exactly what he wanted to do - altering only the rules necessary and at a reasonable cost.
(It would effectively be undetectable, but only be useable a limited number of times(the burn limit) between rest. The other times, he could still try to Conceal it via the free Feat.)

That would be my proposition.

Wounds (0) NL (0) HP (15) AC (16/14/12) Saves (6/7/0) CMD (13) Kinetic Chirurgeon VMC Magus (1.5)

Play as raw. My fault for not knowing the rules. We can use the free feat for when it is needed. But with Cha being replaced with Dex or Con so I’d have a fighting chance. That fair?

HP: 13/13 | AC: 15 / T: 12 / FF: 13 | Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +4 | CMB: -1, CMD: 11 | Init: +2, Perception: +1

I am against the RAW proposition. I also messed up with the forehead Rune of Eidolon. While I did find a mundane workaround, GM was willing to help me make the concept work, even offering "no glowing rune". The same courtesy is extended here and should not be rebuffed easily.

If Kasit would be willing to go with my suggestion, he could play it raw, except a few times per day when it really counts. It can be reasoned for fluff-wise and makes the concept work the way you envisioned. Please reconsider.

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