Time Bandits

Game Master Monkeygod


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As I said in the interest check, this is a planar game based out of Hyraeatan, from the City of 8 Seraphs setting.

The PCs are all bad guys, who are being 'forced' into missions that they might not come back from. Ala the Suicide Squad.

The first several of these missions are classic dungeon crawls, as the PCs are being tasked with gathering the components needed to build a clockwork time machine, similar to the ship used in Legends of Tomorrow.

Character creation rules

Level:

Starting level 8th level, tristalt. One class is your base class, which determines your BAB, saves, skills, etc. The other two will add all of their class features, including casting/manifesting/maneuvers.

Races:
Any humanoid, including fey, monstrous and weak outsiders. You need to be humanish in form. No dragons, oozes, aberrations, magical beasts, etc. Even if they have a shape change ability. Need to limit PC somewhat. I'll make a separate post for race rules.

No templates, however, custom races are allowed, up to the power level of a Noble Drow. Yes, I realize you can play a more powerful monster races exist, but I want to reign in custom ones a bit.

Classes:

Any Paizo, plus pretty much anything on the PFSRD, or the classes on the Spheres Wiki. This includes the classes found under the systems sidebar on the right. You can also use any class beyond these, provided you can either(or both) 1) Tell me what book it’s from, in case I have access to it *or* 2) include all the class features in your submission, and subsequent alias.

**NOTE** I currently have zero knowledge of the Spheres system, however I realize how popular it is, so I won’t disallow them. *If* it seems like a Spheres character is too OP, or is doing too much, or otherwise not working out once game has started, I reserve the right to ask for a rework. (This actually applies to all characters, but I called out Spheres specially because it’s an entire replacement system I lack knowledge of).

Also, in order to A) curb the overall power of the PCs, and B) to hopefully encourage the taking of at least one martial class(after all, each of you should be at least decently capable in a physical fight), PCs will be limited to one full casting/manifesting class. I’m considering including maneuver classes as well, but unsure on that point.

Ability Scores:
38 point buy, no min/no max, but RP your choices please! If you are physical stat *super* with low mental scores, I expect that to be roleplayed out.

Hit Points:
Max, with double at 1st level. While you guys might indeed die, I want ya'll to have a chance at survival.

Feats:
Feat at every level, plus 3 bonus feats at first level, in addition to all other normal feats at first level. Fighters also get Combat Stamina for free at 1st level, Push the Limits for free at 3rd and Extra Stamina for free at 5th. They are still able to select Extra Stamina twice more via normal feat expenditure.

Also, the feat tax is in use.

Skills:
Since you guys are elite level operatives, I’m boosting skills:

Fighters will all get a 'free' archetype that expands and boosts their skills. By free I mean, while they still need to trade out class features as normal, they can take a second archetype that trades out some of the same features.

Ie, if your free one trades out bravery and armor training, you could take a second archetype that also trades out both of those class features.

All classes, yes, including Rogue, get bummed up +2 skills. This includes any archetypes that also boost skills, fighter or otherwise.

Skill unlocks and background skills are in use. However, non rogues are limited to Signature Skill at 6th level and again at 12th.

Traits:
Every one gets 4 traits. Yes, I realize this is equivalent to 2 extra feats on top of what you're already getting, but I feel traits truly help build a character's background and make them more interesting.

Starting Wealth:
49,500, and Automatic Bonus Progression. Yes, I realize that’s way more than 8th level wealth *and* more than what ABP suggests, but again you’re elite soldiers of fortune. While death is very much a possibility, I don’t want you all to suck.

Also, you get one minor artifact, that you may design, as a signature item for your PC.

This should be something that defines your character, like Bat’s utility belt, a power ring, elemental guns, etc. It should not be something too powerful, but is more a unique item that is also hard to destroy.

Feel free to get creative, and don’t worry about sticking to normal item creation rules. For example, to recreate Batman’s utility belt, you could use the Belt of Many Pockets from 3.5, combined with the Well Prepared and Mythic Well Prepared feats(as in the belt grants these feats.)

I reserve full veto power on these items, so please don’t go too overboard.

Finally, all PCs get their base class(see classes above) kits for free.

Levels of Technology:
Steampunk, with guns are commonplace. However, due to the nature of both the setting and the game, early firearms and ammo cost 50% less than in the book, while advanced cost 25% less.

House Rules:

No more than 3 spells/powers/maneuvers etc per round. I want to keep this game at least semi not godmode.

Likewise, critical threat range is limited to 13-20(I’m not sure you can reasonably go lower than 13, but let’s cap there) and critical multiplier will be capped at x6.

No worrying about tracking mundane ammo or rations/food. I'll assume ya'll are smart enough to stock up before a mission.

No age limits, though affects of old age still apply. This more of a RP decision so please don't abuse it.

We'll also be using a neat concept I saw on Facebook: I Know a Guy.

Basically, in any situation where it makes sense, a PC can declare "I know a guy!(okay, not specifically that, but something similar, lol) and then quickly detail the NPC and their relationship. Less details the better.

Upon declaration, the NPC exists, and once the PC goes to interact with the NPC for the first time, they make a Charisma check to see how the NPC reacts. Modifiers will apply as befitting the situation/scene/roleplay.

You can use this ability a number of times throughout the game equal to your 1/2 you level+ Charisma modifier(minimum 1, as even utterly uncharismatic folk know at *least* one 'guy').

However, in between missions, you may spend a full week of downtime to cultivate new contacts up to your Cha mod(To the max allowed). Much like the actual ability, these should not be overly detailed.

One SUPER important rule I use for PCs is the Rule of Fun. What this means is, if at *any* point during the game, even 3 years and 8 levels from now(totally random numbers lol) you decide your character is no longer any fun to play, you're allowed to freely remake them, 100%, or alter as needed.

More house rules may added later.

Backstory:
I expect at least a ten-minute background. You can feel free to write an actual full length background, but ten-minute is minimum and good enough to get a solid idea of your PC.

Due to the planar nature of the game, PCs can come from anywhere, including Earth(If you want to be a normal true fantasy character from Earth, you can easily come from an alternate reality Earth where magic n such is a reality).

Deadline for Submissions/Number of accepted PCs:
As there's a lot of rules and things are a bit complicated, you have one full month(June 8th) till the deadline.

I'm looking for about 6-8 PCs.

HOWEVER, since there's a strong possibility PCs might die, there's going to be no true hard cap on max PCs. The above 6-8 will be the ones chosen to go on the first mission. After that, if any die, or I feel different PCs will fare better on the next mission, we'll switch up the active team.

Inactive PCs can roam Hyraeatan, doing side quests, hanging out in the city, etc. Basically, playing among themselves, with little to no GM input, unless needed. (See below)

Co-GMs I'm looking for 2-4 co-GMs, to help with NPC creation, running combats(not my strongest point) and overseeing the inactive PCs.


Monster Races:

In order to play a “monster” PC, you must give up some of your class levels - you give up a number of class levels equal to the CR of the monster you are, and you gain a number of racial hit dice equal to that same number of levels. You also gain all of the abilities given by that monster type, but you do not have to choose all of the same feats and skill ranks as the “standard” member of that race. Instead, you gain the same number of feat slots as a normal character of your level, and skill ranks/class skills according to the type of creature you are playing for every racial hit dice you possess. Treat it very similarly to multiclassing, except in order to play one of these creatures you must possess a certain minimum number of levels.

Humanoids: gain d8 hit dice with ¾ BAB progression. Each hit dice earns 2 + Int mod skill ranks. The class skills of humanoids are Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival. They have one good save, usually Reflex. They are proficient with all simple weapons, and they must breathe, eat, and sleep.

Monstrous Humanoids: gain darkvision 60ft. Monstrous humanoids gain d10 hit dice with full BAB progression. Each hit dice earns 4 + Int mod skill ranks. The class skills of monstrous humanoids are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim. They have good Reflex and Will saves. They are proficient with all simple weapons, and they must breathe, eat, and sleep.

Outsiders: gain darkvision 60ft., and cannot be raised by means of raise dead, resurrection, or reincarnate. Outsiders gain d10 hit dice with full BAB progression. Each hit dice earns 6 + Int mod skill ranks. The class skills of outsiders are Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and four more that the outsider can choose. They have two good saves, usually Reflex and Will. They are proficient with simple and martial weapons. They must breathe but do not have to eat or sleep.

Undead: gain darkvision 60ft., immunity to mind-affecting effects, bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, anything that requires a Fortitude save and does not also affect objects, exhaustion, and fatigue. Undead are not subject to ability damage to physical ability scores. Undead do not heal naturally. Undead cannot be raised using raise dead or reincarnate. If targeted by resurrection or true resurrection, they revert to the creatures they were while alive. Undead are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy. Undead gain d8 hit dice with ¾ BAB progression. Each hit dice earns 2 + Int mod skill ranks. The class skills of undead are Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth. They have good Will saves. They are proficient with their natural weapons and simple weapons, and do not have to breathe, eat, or sleep.

Fey: gain low-light vision. Fey gain d6 hit dice with ½ BAB progression. Each hit dice earns 6 + Int mod ranks. The class skills of fey are Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device. Fey are proficient with simple weapons. Fey must eat, breathe, and sleep.

When you play a monster PC, you do not assign point buy. You take the stats of the monster. Then, you choose two ability scores. Those scores receive a +4 bonus. Choose two more scores. Those scores receive a +2 bonus. Choose one more score. That score receives a -2 penalty. Otherwise you gain ability score bonuses (+1 per 4 levels) at the same rate as a normal PC.


Dot!

Sovereign Court

Also Dotting!


Tenro wrote:

so far i'm thinking

Incanter
Technician
Warpmaster

though i might sub in Sage

my questions are:

1. what do you mean about feat tax?
2. Incanter is definitely a full casting class, in that their CL = level and they get at least one talent per level. Sage, on the other hand, is a bit different. They get CL = their level but they only get 1 talent at 1 plus 1 talent at 2/4/6/8/etc. (like when a normal fighter gets fighter feats). Do you consider Sage a full caster in that regard, or a half caster since they get half as many talents (assuming they spend all talents on magic, they can also choose combat talents in those slots). Or would you count them as non-casters if no magic talents were chosen in their "Style Talent" slots? I could see it going a lot of ways so I am just wondering for my choice here.

the class chosen by deciding the above will mostly determine the way he fights, be it by gun or fist or blade or whatever. the idea is that he will have some time powers like Cable, Warp powers like Nightcrawler (and some more like Dr. Strange). If I go with Technician, he will warp around and set traps and use self-made weapons and grappling hooks and stuff. If I go with Sage he might be more hand-to-hand.

And as far as tech level what are your thoughts on numenera/iron gods type tech stuff? Magitech?


Feat tax

2) This is where my lack of knowledge of the Spheres system comes into play.

Does the lack of 1 talent per level for the Sage somehow make them less of a caster than the Incanter?

Tech level is detailed above. Let me know exactly what you're thinking about, as the Steamwalkers are all about higher than average level tech. Think Izzet League from Ravinca.


One super important thing I forgot to mention:

All co-GMs are still able to submit a PC and play.

Thus, do not feel you're only able to do one or the other, as I don't want to discourage anyone who would like to help out, but also really wants to play.

You get to do both!!


So, I could play a Nephilim (CR8) as the base class (and race) and get full BAB, ridiculous high attributes, DR and SR?


Voice of Awesomeness wrote:
Does the lack of 1 talent per level for the Sage somehow make them less of a caster than the Incanter?

If you want my opinion, yes, it does. Number of talents is what determines what you can do, so even if you get full CL, your limited selection will allow you a few basic tricks or just one good trick with variances. An Incanter (which is by far the class with more talents) of the same level will be able to have more tricks at hand and of a better quality since his huge amount of talents will allow him to have many more options like increased number of targets, fastest casting times, longer range, etc.

Compare it with a Cleric vs an Inquisitor. At 8th level, they both have CL 8, but the Cleric has access to more, better and more varied spells.

Now, a question about races:

Imagine I want to make a Dapsara Angel (CR 4) which is Fighter/Cleric/Paladin. Will he be:

-Fighter 4/Cleric 4/Paladin 4 or
-Fighter 4/Cleric 8/Paladin 8 ?

Edit: Another question:

Do we really have to be Evil, or can we just be misguided, misunderstood or mis-something? Maybe previously evil but down the path of redemption? IDK.


I’m assuming that’s not even close to the level of absurdity we can get to.

I plan on playing a Legion Archon corrupted and warped by Rovagug into an unholy monstrosity that enjoys destroying things and likes fire.

Her natural defenses against evil spells and creatures makes her uniquely suited to destroy them, too.


I posted in the interest thread and posed several questions, but I think I'll be dropping now that the creation rules are officially out. I don't always enjoy uber high powered games and this one seems like it's a bit over the top for me. Good luck and have fun everyone.


Ooh that monster class level question is pretty important to me too. If I give up all but one tristalt level I’ll probably change my mind.


Two questions

1. How does multi-talented interact with gestalt for this game?

2. Can crafting feats be used on your initial wealth, or only after the game starts?


I am interested, but like the posters above I want to know more details on how monstrous CR levels interact with the gestalt levels. for example, if I play a CR 8 creature does that mean I don't have any actual class levels, and pick up 3 level 1 class ability sets at level 9? or does the 8 levels basically count for one of my 3 gestalt classes with a new class being added at level 1 next level?

so for example if I played a CR8 creature and wanted to go barbarian, sorcerer, rogue would I be a CR8/barbarian8/Sorcerer8, then at level 9 be a CR8/Rogue1/barbarian9/sorcerer9?

if that is not the case I will likely just play a basic race and rely on more levels of gestalt powers.

and to clarify, for the minor artifact. does it have to be custom, or can we choose any minor artifact already in the game? and is this in addition to the gold we start with?


As Jeruru said, yes Sages are far less of a caster than an Incanter.

For instance: to make a spell like Flaming Sphere, you'd need 3 talents. Destruction sphere, energy sphere, and fire blast.

At level 8, sage would have 5 talents.
At level 8, incanter has 14 talents.
Both not using feats/class abilities to attain more talents in this example.
At level 20, that disparity is sage 11 and incanter 30 talents.

Sage is more of a monk+caster class, you could build it like a DBZ character or more like a physical adept from shadowrun. With incanter, casting is everything and the only thing.


Yup, still here. Think I got my idea mostly done.


Aww. No dragons. Had a young Magma Dragon concept all ready to go. Drat. Oh well. Time for the backup.

Just to be sure, your objection is the the non-humanoid body type, not size? Because a dragon of a low enough CR to play is going to be medium. He can spend all his time walking around on his hind legs. :) (not that this is any huge issue. I have other ideas.)


Right now, I am leaning towards the monster race taking place of one class. It would count as your base class, though obviously if you're taking a race that's under CR, you would pick a normal class to make up the rest.

Ie, if you're a fey that's CR 3, that would be your base class for the first 3 levels, and you could then take 5 levels of sorcerer as the rest of your base class.

However, I just woke up, and I'm still half asleep, so maybe this isn't the best idea, lol.

Feel free to discuss.

@Tenro, alrighty, Sage does not count as a full caster. All that makes sense to me.

Knew there was a few things I forgot:

No pre-game crafting. You're already getting more gold than a normal 8th level character, *plus* the benefits of Automatic Bonus Progression.

Favored Class Bonuses: You get them for all 3 classes.

If you're playing a race that gets access to something like multi-talented you can then get the normal bonus skill or HP as well. Ie, if you're a fighter, rogue, monk half elf, you would add +1 to the fighter’s CMD when resisting a disarm or overrun combat maneuver, add a +1/2 on Escape Artist checks and on Acrobatics checks to cross narrow surfaces, add a +1/2 bonus on Bluff checks to feint and Diplomacy checks to gather information *and* you could also get +1 skill or +1 HP per level as well.

Regarding the minor artifact, the idea behind it being a custom item is that it's something that helps define your character.

Batman is all about being ultra prepared, hence his utility belt.

Captain Cold and Heatwave use elemental guns.

The Lanterns have their Power Rings.

*IF* you feel you can pull that off with a currently published minor artifact, we can talk that over and if it makes sense, I have no problem with that.


I sorta need the ruling on the monster races and class levels to make my character, so is that the confirmed answer you’re going with?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Dot 4 L8er


So for monsters, how does that work with HD above the CR? Like a stone giant is CR 8 but has 12 HD. You only end up with 8 racial HD?


Krigare wrote:
So for monsters, how does that work with HD above the CR? Like a stone giant is CR 8 but has 12 HD. You only end up with 8 racial HD?

That’s how these rulesets usually handle it, so you don’t end up with more HD than other PCs arbitrarily.


bigrig107 wrote:
Krigare wrote:
So for monsters, how does that work with HD above the CR? Like a stone giant is CR 8 but has 12 HD. You only end up with 8 racial HD?
That’s how these rulesets usually handle it, so you don’t end up with more HD than other PCs arbitrarily.

Okay, wanted to make sure I was reading things right.


Certain triclass prestige classes like the Trinity Angels and Trinity Knights are a part of one of the Parities in Co7S. Would access to them be restricted? What about other classes like eldritch knight, mystic theurge, etc?


I will adjust soon tonight.
Thank you for running this game.


Belltrap wrote:
Certain triclass prestige classes like the Trinity Angels and Trinity Knights are a part of one of the Parities in Co7S. Would access to them be restricted? What about other classes like eldritch knight, mystic theurge, etc?

Trinity mages as well. Kind of curious about if access to them is restricted or not.


Voice of Awesomeness wrote:
Right now, I am leaning towards the monster race taking place of one class.

Alright, I see. Thank you.

I don't think I'll submit a character then. Good luck to all, guys, and happy gaming.


Regarding Monster CR/HD, these rules give you exactly as many HD as you have HD.

Voice of Awesomeness wrote:

Monster Races:

In order to play a “monster” PC, you must give up some of your class levels - you give up a number of class levels equal to the CR of the monster you are, and you gain a number of racial hit dice equal to that same number of levels. You also gain all of the abilities given by that monster type, but you do not have to choose all of the same feats and skill ranks as the “standard” member of that race. Instead, you gain the same number of feat slots as a normal character of your level, and skill ranks/class skills according to the type of creature you are playing for every racial hit dice you possess. Treat it very similarly to multiclassing, except in order to play one of these creatures you must possess a certain minimum number of levels.

That will likely be a bigger disadvantage with some races, e.g. many fey make up for their 1/2 BAB and 1d8 HD with more HD per CR...and theoretically it could be an advantage for others, since I know there are at least a few races out there that have HD < CR.

By the way, Monkeygod one clarifying Q: many races that have HD > CR also have a caster level = HD (e.g. shaitan get CL 9 for SLAs. Do they keep the listed CL? Or drop that to match their CR (as we're doing with feats, HD, & skills granted)?

And another Q: can you clarify what you're going for with lesser artifacts? Here are two example printed lesser artifacts:
* Black Iron Axe - this is strictly better than a +12 equivalent weapon, which isn't possible to build in normal rules, but if it could be it would cost > 228,000 GP.
* Staff of the Magi - it would be much more complicated to cost this, but I suspect it would be way way more than the Axe.

Are these the power level you're thinking of? Or are you thinking more of the level of something like the "Batman's utility belt" example, which is way way lower in power.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I’m thinking of the living bomb prestige class as part of my tristalt, but I was thinking of using sorcerer for my arcane class before I took it. As such, I’d need to use charisma instead of int for most class abilities. Living suggests using the main casting stat from your arcane class instead of just intelligence, but I figured I’d ask.

As for my other two, I’ll probably go barbarian and maybe kineticist.


Aslo, are veilweaving classes counted as casters for the limit of one full caster? And which ones count as full casters if so?


Hmmmmmm... interesting... maybe I'll build some kind of Maftet. :)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

dot


Another Q: how do you want to handle FCB for monsters?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Allowance Question for the GM:

Body Bludgeon normally requires lvl 10 Barbarian, can I pick it up at 8? After reading through it several times it doesn't seem overly powerful for lower levels.

Text:
Body Bludgeon (Ex) (Ultimate Combat pg. 26): While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the opponent is sized Small. Larger or smaller creatures used as a bludgeon deal damage based on their size using this base damage. A size Tiny creature deals 1d6 points of damage, a size Medium creature deals 1d10 points of damage, and so on. The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. Whenever the barbarian hits using the pinned opponent as a weapon, she deals damage to her target normally, and the grappled opponent used as a bludgeon also takes the same damage she dealt to the target. If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon. A barbarian must be at least 10th level before selecting this rage power.


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Okay, I'm still trying to work out how best to handle the monster races issues. I wanna make sure I get this right, and hopefully not turn off a lot of players via my choice.

That said, Saashaa's above question got me thinking about something, and I believe I'm going to switch things up slightly:

Starting level is now 10th

This will allow rogues and other classes access to one advanced class feature, casters get 5th level spells, and if you're taking a PrC, you get a few more levels in that.

All of this leads to the PCs being that much more elite, which helps with the overall theme of the game. You're supposed to among the some of the best of the best.

Alignment

You don't have to be *evil* but you need to at least be morally grey/dark.
You have to be okay with doing not so nice or good things.

However, I refuse to run or play evil games that involve things like rape, crimes against children or other vile acts, so no need to worry that such will be a part of this game.

Minor Artifacts

Create something unique, and flavorful rather than pure power. *If* it happens to also be powerful, that's okay.

As they are an important part of your character, I'll go over each one and offer suggestions/critiques as necessary.

One more thing!

As the idea of the game is that we will probably be rotating PCs between missions, try to specialize, somewhat.

Not like uber fire mage with all fire spells and fire magic items and fire pants, and so on.

But more role: infiltration specialist, enforcer, mastermind, hacker, grifter, etc.

Yes, those are from Leverage, sue me. :P


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im kinda going along an infiltrator theme, with some tinkerer maybe.


I love leverage! My role will be hitter. A NE dwarf (maybe something else) who found the helmet and is now wreaking havoc wherever he goes.

Examples of Minor Artifacts are found here. Is this the kind what you're looking for?

The Wrecking Ball
Slot head; CL 15th; Weight 15 lbs.; Aura strong conjuration

This ancient helmet forged by the first dwarves is ornately decorated with a symbolic language long lost.
This Adamantine +3 Smashing Dwarven Boulder Helmet has no scratches or other signs of wear and has a stone-like grey color and pattern that resembles the dwarven homeworlds. Even though it is slightly heavier than usual, it is also much better balanced and seems to magically fit itself to its wearer. If the wearer has a strength score greater than 20, the helmet does not confer the staggered condition on a successful bullrush as usual for this weapon. In this case, the bonus on such combat maneuvers is +4 instead of the usual +2 and the wearer may treat the helmet as a one-handed weapon for any purpose.
The helmet, who's obvious purpose originally was, to take down stone walls and other tasks of heavy destruction also awards the wearer with supernatural perception of stone and stone work. Any wearer recieves the dwarven Stonecunning racial trait.


Alright, I think I've come up with a decent compromise for monster races, but please give me your feedback!! I very prefer to work with my player to reach an end result that makes everyone as happy as possible as opposed to just declaring certain things.

Monster Races

First four(4) CR are free, after that, you pay 1 CR from your three classes. This may come from all one class, or a mix of all 3.

Ie, if you're going with a CR 7 race, first 4 CR are free. You then need to pay 3 CR. You could give up 3 levels of fighter(Dropping you down to 7 levels of fighter) or you could give up one level from each class(bringing you down to 9 in each).

Also, you may pick either your monster race or one of your 3 classes as your base for BAB, Saves, skills, etc.

Again, please provide feedback and ask questions on this! I am more than willing to change/alter the above 'ruling' if presented with a good argument!


@Ellioti I'm getting a very Bulldozer + Thunderball vibe from that helmet!!

And yes, that's exactly kinda of what I'm thinking along the lines of! Something unique, and flavorful while still being a badass item!

Please note, your minor artifacts do *not* need to be weapons or armor. Anything can be a signature item, as long as it fits your theme/concept!


Voice of Awesomeness wrote:

Alright, I think I've come up with a decent compromise for monster races, but please give me your feedback!! I very prefer to work with my player to reach an end result that makes everyone as happy as possible as opposed to just declaring certain things.

Monster Races

First four(4) CR are free, after that, you pay 1 CR from your three classes. This may come from all one class, or a mix of all 3.

Ie, if you're going with a CR 7 race, first 4 CR are free. You then need to pay 3 CR. You could give up 3 levels of fighter(Dropping you down to 7 levels of fighter) or you could give up one level from each class(bringing you down to 9 in each).

Also, you may pick either your monster race or one of your 3 classes as your base for BAB, Saves, skills, etc.

Again, please provide feedback and ask questions on this! I am more than willing to change/alter the above 'ruling' if presented with a good argument!

I think that is still very unbalanced. I can pick a CR 10 monster (which is supposed to match the strength of 4!!! level 10 PCs) and add two sets of class features on top of that. I suggest each CR costs two levels of another class. Thus you can play, i.e., CR10/fighter10 or a CR8/fighter7/wizard7 or a CR5/fighter5/wizard10/cleric5 or a human/fighter10/wizard10/cleric10


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Honestly, with the option to create a custom race of up to 41 points, I don't see much need in taking monster levels or monster races with CR. In my opinion, all it does is mess things up more in a game which could already be messy enough.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but tracking a Tristalt with different levels between all the classes, adding monster levels (and knowing CR is not always, almost never, equivalent to Class Level), which also have a different way of calculating Ability Scores, seems a way to overcomplicate things a lot. It seems way easier to try recreate your race/monster with the race builder. Wanna play a Celestial? 41 points: outsider, SLAs, extra ability bonuses, whatever.

Anyway, as I said, I'm heavily considering it. I went no, then yes, then no, then thought I would wait until a final agreement is reached and see if I like the result. Just wanted to contribute a bit.


I'll vote in favor of "just race-builder it, don't make it more complicated with hit dice". As I've been playing around with possible builds it became clear pretty quickly that the 'optimal' build would involve finding a monstrous humanoid with maximum stats and unusual abilities for their CR. The problem with the idea of 'paying' for CR with racial hit dice is that the original CR takes hit dice into account--so that, for example, a maftet is higher CR than a serpentfolk at least partly because the maftet has more racial hit dice. (And yes I was looking at both of those for my character)


Almonihah wrote:
I'll vote in favor of "just race-builder it, don't make it more complicated with hit dice". As I've been playing around with possible builds it became clear pretty quickly that the 'optimal' build would involve finding a monstrous humanoid with maximum stats and unusual abilities for their CR. The problem with the idea of 'paying' for CR with racial hit dice is that the original CR takes hit dice into account--so that, for example, a maftet is higher CR than a serpentfolk at least partly because the maftet has more racial hit dice. (And yes I was looking at both of those for my character)

I was under the impression that you don’t get the monster’s ability scores, and just use the normal stat generation method.

In which case you’re giving up class levels for the abilities of the monster.


bigrig107 wrote:

I was under the impression that you don’t get the monster’s ability scores, and just use the normal stat generation method.

In which case you’re giving up class levels for the abilities of the monster.

Nope.

Quote:
When you play a monster PC, you do not assign point buy. You take the stats of the monster. Then, you choose two ability scores. Those scores receive a +4 bonus. Choose two more scores. Those scores receive a +2 bonus. Choose one more score. That score receives a -2 penalty. Otherwise you gain ability score bonuses (+1 per 4 levels) at the same rate as a normal PC.


Hi, DM!

I'm briefly pausing character development until we can nail down the creation rules.

I think bumping the starting level to 10 sounds great. Would there be an adjustment in starting wealth?

I think we should stick with your original monster character rules. All of these adjustments appear to be muddying the waters, so to speak.

/two coppers


Monkeygod, thanks for clarifying artifacts a bit!

I'm not sure I understand how your "First four(4) CR are free" would work. Let's say I build a [Shaitan (CR 7) / Fighter 7 | Striker 10 | Kineticist 10]

Previously you'd said he'd get racial HD = to CR...but if we still do that he'd end up with 14 HD. Are you now saying that HD = (CR -4)? Since he's an outsider, if I choose him as my "base" does he contribute 6 skill points / level for the first 7 levels (his CR?) or the first 3 (CR -4)?

And if you're saying I'd have the option to build him as a [Shaitan (CR 7) / Fighter 9 | Striker 9 | Kineticist 9]...how would that effect his total HD / Skill points / overall character level?

Honestly, I'm 100% fine with giving up HD = CR. In fact, for many creatures, it seems like a bargain. (Admittedly, the rules that you borrowed from leinathan give a heavy advantage to Outsiders and Monstrous Humanoids over Fey, since Fey usually compensate for their 1/2 BAB with more HD / CR...but given trisalt, it's not a big deal, since the Fey build can presumably choose one of their two full classes as their base.)

Another few Qs:
1) you give FCB for every class, which is fun. How should we do that for monstrous races, who don't have a FCB listed? (Choose from another race? Just take skill or HP x3? Have this rule only apply to nonmonstrous PCs?)

2) I think that one of the big questions for a game like this is balance. Based on comments about auditing the power level of artifacts &etc it sounds like you do want some amount of balance between the PCs. I think that's difficult to achieve with monstrous trisalt, without a bit more guidance. Do you want to recommend max (ability scores? AC? Saves? Spell/maneuver DCs?)

Personally, I'm perfectly happy to make changes after selection, if it helps to create a more fun, balanced party.


If I am choosing races from Co7S, what are their base RP? can i add RP to them to get to 41?


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I’m actually thinking the opposite from most of y’all. I’d much rather go Monster-as-1/3-of-triatalt than limit it to PC races. Now, admittedly that’s because I build in HeroLab, which supports Gestalt but not tristalt, so going straight tristalt would make my build vastly more complicated, since I’d have to hammer it out partially by hand. Besides, for the suicide squad vibe monster races makes a lot of sense. I’m just sad we can’t play dragons or awakened dinosaurs or something else nonhumanoid. lol


Tenro wrote:
If I am choosing races from Co7S, what are their base RP? can i add RP to them to get to 41?

where do you all get he 41?


From the Races section of the first post "custom races are allowed, up to the power level of a Noble Drow." ...and Drow Noble is a 41 pt race.

I don't think Monkeygod has said yet if one can start with a lower point buy race and add to them...but presumably that's implicit, since one could just say "I'm playing custom race that's a lot like a more powerful goblin or grippli or whatever".

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