DMDM's Fingerprints of the Fiend

Game Master Douglas Muir 406

Let us not lack imagination. =)

1)

Yes, it provides total cover...if you stand right behind it.

But it could provide Cover (+4 AC, as in, non-Total) if you only have most of your body behind it.

W = Wall

P = PC

.......WWWWWWWW
.....PPPP..............PPPP
.....PPPP..............PPPP
.....PPPP..............PPPP
.....PPPP..............PPPP

This way it could provide "Cover" to 2 PCs at a time, as they shoot from either the right or left flanks, respectively.

2) The Plan

i: Grinceroy makes a wall 30' in front of him, at 200 ft (or whichever we decide is optimum range.

ii. 2 PCs with bows Move to the wall and fire from behind cover.

iii. Grinceroy can do this again on round 2 if the third PC with a bow wants to fire also.

iv. Grinceroy concentrates on re-making walls as they fall/are destroyed.

v. The 2 clerics can either stay prone (-4 to hit with ranged attacks) or take Full defense actions. They can also stand behind archers, gaining +2 AC from the soft cover.

Of note, Grinceroy can also stay prone this entire time.

(Looking at the rules, I don't see any reason the clerics can't take Full Defense while prone....)

With shortbows, morvius and I should at least get within 180' before firing -- even still that's -4 for range.

I worry if we all stay back and make them come to us, Weasel boy there is gonna pull out a fireball scroll or some such.

I kinda like Morvius' plan of some covering fire while others close, then archers charge in?

1) If they can fireball at us while we stay back, then they can fireball us as we advance. I'd rather that they fireball us where we can take pause, hide behind total cover, and heal, rather than fireballing us and then charging into melee.

2) If it's -4 for you, it's probably -2 for them. Add in the cover bonus, and we still have the advantage. For every 1 damage they do, we'll do 3.

3) After expending our arrows, if they still haven't charged at us, we can then charge them, and they'll have already expended all their fireball scrolls. =)

Fair points. :). I'm on board then.

@DM - thanks for keeping us moving along, and also for letting us call a quick OOC huddle!

Sure, no worries. Now that you've decided, just describe what you're doing over on the gameplay thread.

I guess, specifically, we need Grinceroy to say that he advances to 210, and then creates a wall at 180, and then whoever has a bow move up and let fly.

I can run 80' as a full-round action, so I'll do that until I'm 180' away and then I'll full-round attack while the rest of you advance.

Exactly. Fully attack from behind the wall, then Callindra does the same thing.

Then Grince and the two clerics hang back and take Total Defense actions.

??

Don't you want to be running towards combat while we cover you? It's not as if you can do much from distance - and even Total Defence won't guarantee you don't get hit.

If we charge, then they get arrow hits, AND they can use whatever surprise they have, AND we have to go to them and hit them when they are prepared. (If they have Hold Persons, or even Grease spells, that would be bad.) I want to disrupt that:

1) The entire idea of "Cover" doesn't mean much without firearms tossing up 100's of round per second. It's not like they'd have to hit the dirt while you put down suppressing fire. All you'd be doing is a few arrow hits, while they do many arrow hits, and then we're in melee, without you. Even at 80 a round, that's still 3 round from combat.

2) If we all hang back, we're in an archer war. It's their mooks vs our ranged guys. Granted, it looks like we only have 2 bows, but they only have 4 mooks with bows. If our 2 Bowmen have cover, they'll miss a lot, leaving you to shoot at will.

3) Total Defense is +4 AC. Doing that prone (again, I've not seen a reason we can't) is +8 AC, which means mooks would only hit on a 20.

4) At the slow pace of an archer war, Janeesa could heal whatever damage we did take just on the wand. We don't even know if they have healing.

5) The idea is that we either take out their mooks, giving us the numerical advantage, or we just frustrate them enough so that they have to come to us. They'll be hurt, and they will be spread out in the attack, while we wait, together, with the defender's advantage. (I will probably be able to summon, in this case. Balls, in an Archer war, if they stay back, I can harass them with Archons.)

I'm not saying this is the end-all and be-all of battle plans, but if we can wear them down and force them to come to us, that's better than rushing head-long at them.

If we're getting the short end after a round or two, we can always just charge. =)

OK, that makes sense. Let's go with it and see how long it takes before the plan fails to survive contact with the enemy :)

You know you're doing well when the DM doesn't even bother adding numbers, just rolls and looks for 20s. ^_^

There, doesn't this just feeel better? They're doing their surprises, while we still have time and space to react.

If we were charging at them we'd pretty much just have to take it and keep on running.

Grinceroy, is Kinetic Weapon something you can just do at will? How does that work?

Psionics are weird

Kind of. It took me a minute to understand it my first couple times looking through it. So, at this current level, I can do any action at will that costs 1 point of burn or less. If I start combining infusions, or doing other things that increase burn cost, then I can do it only as much as I'm willing to take burn (up to 4 burn per day).

I believe Total Defense is a standard action.

It is, I was just pondering if there would be any use to it at all in a surprise round. If you're taking any action in the surprise round, your opponents must be surprised. So taking total defense as a Standard Action in the surprise round was kind of a stupid choice, since the surprised opponents can't attack me.

That said, I missed the fact we were in a surprise round when I used that action the first time. I posted that before you declared round 1, and then other people were taking a second set of actions, so if people are getting a set of actions before round 1, there was a surprise round, and I basically wasted it.

Don't worry about it Janeesa. It's not like I did a lot either. =)

(Of course, that's all part of the CUNNING PLAN! =)

Must head for bed, will finish the enemy's actions in the morning.

@DMDM - (un)fortunately I think that kinetic weapons have some sort of blast feature, so they actually do damage plus 1/2 to swarms.

I stand to be corrected here - I've never been well up on the psionic classes...

I'm also new to the kineticist and learning as we go, but from the text Morvius linked, it looks like the kinetic blast should do at least full damage - grinceroy's club description was just flavor?

Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).

Damn.

That seems slightly OP to me -- an at-will attack for 3d6+4? And it's one-handed? That puts Grinceroy just a little behind an equivalent-level fighter in terms of melee DPR. Is there any reason he'd ever use anything /but/ that kinetic weapon?

Looks like it's a ranged attack (so provokes AoO), but range is capped at 30 feet (no increment) and it's a standard action (so can't full attack).

So it's great it certain situations (and splendid for swarms, thank the gods!), but has some significant limits.

Normally it is ranged attack. Elemental Ascetic though cannot make his kinetic blast a ranged attack.

As for why not to do Kinetic Weapon, yeah, I get elemental flurry, but only when I use kinetic fist, which just adds 1d6 to my unarmed attacks, that gives me a good full attack, but not great. Also if I want to use any of my other abilities, (i.e. Kinetic Push or whatever) then I've either got to drop the kinetic weapon, build up one point of buffered burn, or take 1 point of burn which is 1 unhealable nonlethal damage per level.

As for OP, I've got 3/4 BAB progression which is not great for someone who depends ENTIRELY on being able melee someone. And no armor, which is fun flavor wise, but again, I have to be right up next to someone, you could see the limitations when we were fighting that flying creature. I'm great against mooks, but get someone with the higher AC and the higher BAB, I'm dead in the water.

As for damage, I believe Kinetic weapon should do full damage, but not + 1/2 against the swarm. It's not an area blast. Yes the weapon was for flavor

The kinetic blade’s shape is purely cosmetic and doesn’t affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features.

and deals the same type of damage as the regular blast:

The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type.

Overall, I'll say that, admittedly, this is my first time with anything Psionics, but from what I've seen so far, I definitely feel that in certain situations I'm great, others I'm useless.

However, if you really feel that this is OP and going to ruin the game, I'm willing to change or drop out as you see fit.

I mean look at Brother D's damage in one sample round,

Fist of Zeal!: 1d20 + 3 + 2 + 8 ⇒ (5) + 3 + 2 + 8 = 18
Zeal damage!: 1d8 + 7 + 3 + 2 ⇒ (8) + 7 + 3 + 2 = 20
Fist of Righteousness!: 1d20 + 3 + 2 + 8 ⇒ (11) + 3 + 2 + 8 = 24
Righteousness damage!: 1d8 + 7 + 3 + 2 ⇒ (6) + 7 + 3 + 2 = 18

Vs mine

Kinetic Weapon: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (15) + 8 = 23
Damage: 3d6 + 4 ⇒ (6, 5, 4) + 4 = 19

Or as a full round (which I haven't been able to do yet):

Unarmed Attack: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (17) + 9 = 26
Damage: 1d8 + 1 + 1d6 ⇒ (6) + 1 + (6) = 13

Unarmed Attack: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (16) + 9 = 25
Damage: 1d8 + 1 + 1d6 ⇒ (8) + 1 + (1) = 10

Unarmed Attack: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (10) + 4 = 14
Damage: 1d8 + 1 + 1d6 ⇒ (4) + 1 + (1) = 6

That's after spending a ton of money on an Amulet of Mighty Fists and some pretty good rolls all around.

Sure he had some buffing on those attacks, but that's still more than any one round of damage for me.

Hm, it looks like it's something that's great right now at this level, but will fade quickly in (relative) power as you level up. Okay.

Janni Style allows me to negate most of the problems with being flanked. As for one more swarm, that I did not realize. If DM is okay with it, I would have stayed and dealt with the other swarm had I realized that. If not, well then, I'm sorry, and I hope I didn't screw things up too badly.

Attempting to summarize current battlefield layout --

Feet: People
0: Callinda, Morvius
.
30: Janeesa
.
45: Attero
50: Overseer, Boss
55: Earth elemental
.
.
.
100:Grinceroy
.
140: Mook (uninjured), Moon (uninjured)
.
170: Weasel, Mook (went down, healed, up again)
.
200: Mook (down)

Are we up again, or are there more bad guys?

Also, if you could update the battlefield layout DMDM that would be much appreciated :)

I think that's only reactions within our turn, hasn't gotten to theirs yet?

But yes, please, update (or correct!) my sketch as needed and let us know when to go! :)

Does anyone know what feats those are?

I have tried a whip build many times, but I don't recall coming across ANY feats that would make it so...useful. ^_^

Improved Whip Mastery gives you the reach, Combat Reflexes gives you the AoO and Deflect Arrows gives you the anti-range ability

That's my guess, anyway. If he's a fighter its's possible that it's Cut from the Air rather than Deflect Arrows.

Don't worry, though - Morvius has a whip too. And he knows how to use it :-)

Sometimes I go to some trouble with builds, for theorycrafting or for fun. Sometimes this works. Other times the players steamroll the poor NPC in a round or two. What can you do.

Please clarify -- Brother Attero had charged Boss/Overseer to get in their faces (and flank with his elemental); if one of them is circling around him to flank in their latest action, then (a) do Attero and his elemental get AoOs on them due to movement? (b) is one of them (which one) now on our side of Attero, such that Janeesa and I can flank with him?

In general, it seems like this combat has gotten too detailed-tactical to work without more explicit mapping.

Grinceroy somewhat upset everyone's plans by charging forward; he got AoO'd by Overseer and knocked down.

Brother Attero summoned his earth elemental and charge - flanked Overseer.

Boss then charge-flanked Brother Attero, leading to a classic Conga Line of Flank situation.

-------G [prone]------
-- EE -- Over -- BrA -- Boss

<-- Mooks & Weasel

Rest of PCs -- >

Is that more clear?

I had closed to within 20' of Boss/Overseer before they turned on Grince and Attero, so even with their moves, I'm thinking I should be able to reach (selective) channel range of Attero and Grince in one move action. If not, I'd probably charge with the morningstar instead.

Oh, selective channeling. Well well, at least you spent a feat for it. Yes, you can do that.

Is anyone else getting the glitch where you hit "Submit" and then your post doesn't appear, and you have to go away from the page and then come back?

All the time. Website has been utter s~*#e since about August last year.

Let us know when it's our go, btw.

Also, is Morvius within, oh, say 30 feet of Overseer?

Yeah. I kinda wish Paizo had paused for a year to catch breath before rolling out The New Thing. I'm agnostic / neutral on PF2, but it really feels like they're stretched thin with the rollout -- modules, Pathfinder Tales, updating the SRD, website issues, you name it.

Still a fine company and all. But, hum.

-- Anyway. You're 50' from Overseer; a 30' move would bring you within 20'.

Yeah, it sure gives a new spin on the phrase "move fast and break things"

If Callinda and I are 50 ft from Overseer, makes sense for us both to hang back a while and shoot him some more. How many arrows can he deflect in one round, after all?

...I'm going to regret asking that, aren't I.

The mooks shoot. Fwip Fwip Fwip! d20d20d20

One hit on Morvius! Morvius, take d8+2 points of damage.

DM, are you sure you're adding your modifiers properly? Morvius has a 24 AC, and that is +4 for Medium Cover from the Wall.

Also, Morvius, are you sure that shooting arrows is the best move?

I'm not going to do much good from back here with them in melee, since no precise shot.

Also, remember your Blessing from Brother Attero, if an extra 10 feet of movement gets you close enough for what you want to do?

If he knows how to use that whip, you'll struggle to get close to him.

DM, are you sure you're adding your modifiers properly? Morvius has a 24 AC, and that is +4 for Medium Cover from the Wall.

Scrodknuckles, I forgot about the wall. Morvius, remove that damage. Sheesh, poor mooks can't get a break.

If he knows how to use that whip, you'll struggle to get close to him.

On the other hand, if nobody comes to help them, they'll soon be outnumbered as well as flanked and prone...

Two parties marching towards each other on an open plain would seem simple! In fact, it gets tactically gnarly very quickly, with lots of interesting decisions.

That's why I'm going for Boss instead. I figure if I just take some pressure off Brother Attero, he'll rip the Overseer's knees off without even bothering to stand up?

...Also, there's the earth elemental standing behind Overseer, and I think Attero still threatens while prone, right? -- which I failed to include in my attack, I notice. I'll edit that in in case it makes a diff on crit confirm.

Morvius Zaan wrote:

If he knows how to use that whip, you'll struggle to get close to him.

On the other hand, if nobody comes to help them, they'll soon be outnumbered as well as flanked and prone...

Two parties marching towards each other on an open plain would seem simple! In fact, it gets tactically gnarly very quickly, with lots of interesting decisions.

It would be a lot simpler if someone had remembered to stick to The Plan *grumbles*

Mmmph. Even if someone, and I won't say who, it could be any Phytokineticist Monk that we know, but even if they hadn't rushed in a round too early, the next round we'd be facing a similar scenario -- Overseer would've gotten just far enough into range to start tripping us, and we still would've had to try to rush him, and face the same AOOs.

True - but he'd have come into my range, of my AoO and on my terms.

Oh well. The road not taken is always the one that looks best in hindsight.