Fighter Weapon Training

Apologies if this came up in A1 or A2, started with A3 haven't checked those forums...

I really love the idea of weapon training for fighters, but I don't like how it's being done. Just giving them another flat attack / damage mod that stacks with magic, focus, specialization, etc. seems unnecessary. It’s not like they have difficulty hitting most things all day long already, so I don’t really get the point. Plus, this is like the old ranger favored enemy issue where you picked one at the start for the benefits much later on. I honestly don’t see why we’re giving them multiple groups, it’s not like they’ll ever use anything outside of their first group again. Worse, this doesn't add any new, unique or interesting options for them like the other classes have seen (you can still get some of those in feats, but feats aren't class unique or special because anyone with the right mashup of class abilites can get them).

There's an opportunity here to do something that fighters have been missing for a long time, to give them actual options based on their weapon use, and make those options distinct from other classes. I’d much rather see weapon training give fighters some minot special abilites when using weapons in a weapon group, like CMB modifiers to certain attacks, or be able to use a CMB move as a swift action while carrying, or something someone more creative comes up with (I know they're not OGL, but I want to raid the various Tactical Feats for inspiration). It might even be easy to make benefits that stack with themselves, so fighters who want to focus on a particular group can do so at the expense of versatility.

Just a thought and a hope.

Where the Weapon Training of Fighter is for selected enemies, the Alpha version in my hands say is for weapon groups chosen for the fighter.

It doesn't say it's against certain enemies, it is with a certain group of weapons. I was comparing the bonus progression with the 3.0 ranger favored enemy progression, which was generally considered inferrior to other, more flexible ideas. I was just suggesting that we move away from that static, and rather bland progression. Sorry if I suggested that there were any similarities besides that.

See here for a different take on Weapon Training.

Sorry Locworks, I'm not a fan, for many of the reasons stated theres.

But between that and Squirrelloid's fighter redesign, I'm starting to think that they just need the weapon training toned down and other options added. So I'll toss a suggestion up here:

----
Weapon Training (ex): At 5th level, and again every 4 levels thereafter, a fighter picks up broad weapons training. This allows the fighter to apply any feat taken for one weapon in the group to all weapons in the group. For example, if a fighter has taken Weapon Focus (Longsword) and Weapon Specialization (Longsword), he could select the weapon group Heavy Blades at this level, and those feats would apply to all weapons in the group. The fighter may instead take Weapon Focus (Weapon Group), Weapon Specialization (Weapon Group), or Exotic Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat at these levels.

If the weapon group system from Unearthed Arcana is in use, the fighter may instead become proficient in another weapon group, or select from the Weapon Focus (Weapon Group), Weapon Specialization (Weapon Group), or Improved Weapon Focus (Weapon Group) feats.
----

That prevents ridiculous stacking, limits bonuses, but still expands proficiency and skill. It's not the weapon tricks idea I had before, but it's probably more manageable, and leaves those firmly in feats that fighters still have lots and lots of access to.

I just posted this in Locworks other thread - and just noticed it was for A-2 feedback. Thus I figure it won't be viewed often. I apologize to any who already read that and sees this as a repost...

Lokworks, These are nice ideas; simple and understandable (though the feat is a bit complex as other mentioned).

I really like the emphasis on making you better with your weapons manuevers like disarm.

Personally, instead of just number crunching and add up a lot of bonuses - (perhaps adding some is fine, however), I'd like to see fighters have "manuevers" of their own that they can perform.

The combat manuevers are general and universal. The combat feats will be fighter freebees, but everyong can take them I'm sure.

I think fighters need manuevers that THEY can do: (1/day, or 1/encounter; increasing as fighter level advances etc - however it needs to be doled out).

Examples: (but certainly not an exhaustive list).

A_When an opponent attacks your fighter misses, and the fighter then attacks and hits his opponent, the fighter is essentially forcing his indominable will upon his lesser opponent. The Fighter after hitting his opponent and doing damage can choose to push his target back with a successful CMB check into any adjacent square away from him. (Straight back, back-diagonally to left or to right). What this does is: 1) if the fighter has a reach weapon it sets up the target for an AoO. 2) the fighter can opt to take a 5'step back (if he is still alotted it) and thus make the opponent unable to make a full-attack action if/when it approaches him on the next round.

B_Cause the multiplier of his weapon to be increased by 1 for a critical. (chosen after the confirmed critical roll is determined).

C_Automatically confirm a critical without having to roll.

D_Double Damage on a charge

E_Full attack after a charge

F_A penalty applied to casters attemping to cast defensively.

G_Continue to gain an extra 5' steps between attacks (up to max movement). Say 1 extra at 5th level, another at 10th, etc.

One need only look at the myriad prestige classes in so many of the splat books for class feature ideas of what a fighter could/should be able to do with special manuevers. Thus eliminating the desire to want to go into any of those prestige classes or simply eliminate them altogether.

As for weapon training - I think that the bonus should be transferrable to different types on a day by day ability. Otherwise, you strangle the fighters abilities by the exact equipment he has. The other classes special abiliities dont restrict their function based on the weapon they're using (class restrictions nonwithstanding). But a ranger gets his two-weapon fighting whether fighting with mace, sickle, sword, or dagger. His point blank counts for crossbow, longbow, sling, or javelin. A barbarians rage powers work just as well with greatsword or a spiked chain.

I applaud the notion that a fighter that has always relied on a greatsword, stumbles upon a Frost GreatAxe in an earlier treasure hoard, and opts to use that today since they've just stumpled upon a red-wyrms domain and all his magmin, and salamander mooks.

Robert

I like the fact that fighters get a little something extra, but I really don't want to see "Pathfinder" go to the special attacks 1/day or 1/encounter (especially that one). The mechanic 1/encounter is one of the many things that turned me away from 4e and would hate to have my 3.75 edition ruined with the concept.

I could see Fighters getting their weapon training on their CWB as well.

As for something else: No.

The fighter's good as he is. He fights. All he does is fight. It may be boring, but it's also easy, straightforward. I think it's good to have something like that around. Don't bother with any activated abilities, just concentrate on fighting.

The added attack and damage bonuses are a nice bonus for fighters, something that makes them draw even with (or at least get a lot closer to) other warrior classes.

If you decide to get extra abilities - you have your feats. About twice as many as other characters, and many feats out there add interesting options.

All they have to do is add some more feats like that, and we're golden.